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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/17/2008 8:57:12 AM | Where I live fear of being killed is the only reason you need. But those situations happen in a split second so there's little time to think much less react in the right way. Unless you're ex-military or police or take self defense classes of course. I tell myself I'd waste anyone who breaks in but I may also do the calm demeanor thing or I may freeze up. The one time recently when I wish I was armed would have turned out much worse if I had pulled out a gun.
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/19/2008 2:31:26 PM | | I agree 100 percent! If they are stupid enough to break in OUR homes, hurt OUR families, steal OUR shit, and kill OUR loved ones, then they are freakin stupid enough to get THIER dumb ass shot on sight! Good post...I had to make it a real good one to be my FIRST to reply to here at the forums. I agree though, if capitol punishment and the right to bear and USE arms was in affect now, not to mention being able to disipline your child (I won't even get started on that subject OMG), then this world wouldn't be as freakin screwed up as it is NOW! My compliments to the author of this message. It's nice to see that ALL of us hasn't gone soft just yet, we can say how we feel, stand up for what we believe in, defend ourself, our families, our possesions, but yet be able to love with the softness of our hearts! We should talk sometime soon..... :-D | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/19/2008 7:47:49 PM | I'm a Canadian living in Texas, so I have seen both extremes of gun control laws. The fact is that when you buy a gun in the States, a Federal background check is run and the paperwork that you sign where ever it is that you are buying the gun states that you agree to keep the gun safely stored and unloaded. The "safe storage" and "unloaded" requirement is exactly the same requirement in Canada... the only difference is that in Canada that law is enforced, and in the States, it is not because the "right to bear arms" is paramount here... especially in Texas.
The fact of the matter is that if you follow the rule of safe storage, then IF a burglar enters your home, you are at a severe disadvantage (read: screwed). But it's also easy to see the other side... look at the numerous news reports especially in the States of children accidentally getting a hold of their parents guns and shooting a friend, thinking it is a toy. That is the only time that I'd agree with the improper storage citation. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/19/2008 8:23:31 PM | Actually, Canadianresolution, that requirement is only for handguns. The weapon I used 6 years ago for defending myself during my own home invasion still requires no background check or other paperwork.
My story? Well, it was the wee hours of the morning in August, 2001, when I heard a strange noise at my front door. Somebody was picking the lock. He eventually succeeded, and entered my first floor apartment. The apartment had no back door outside, so escape wasn't an option; but I did have my slide action shotgun nearby and loaded it. The reason I selected that particular weapon becomes evident in what happened next. I rushed to the doorway leading to the living room, where the guy (I would assume such, it looked like a guy, and the burly figure in the doorway was over 6 feet) was entering from the outside. I trained my weapon on the silhouette, and worked the slide---evidently scaring the bejeebers out of whoever it was. The figure in the doorway turned tail and ran. I called the cops, who showed up 20 minutes later. They never caught the guy, to my knowledge, but the sound of that slide action let whoever it was know I was armed and meant business. In answer to the inevitable question, yes, I was prepared to shoot. Even knowing it might kill the intruder. Would I have been charged if I had to shoot? Probably not, at least not in the state of Florida. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/21/2008 3:06:24 PM | I really loved your comments peoples, and I can understand each one of your points of view... Here is another disheartening fact... Ten years ago in 100 Mile House, a 15 year old and his buddy killed a family of four. Now he is 25 and out on day passes...
And all the gang shootings in the Lower Mainland, there are no arrests... Our country is going to pot...
I have a suggestion though, why don't people quit buying drugs and dealers and gangs wouldn't have any turf to fight over?
Innocent people getting shot in Toronto on the streets, again and again as well...
Don't want to get off topic and try to solve the worlds problems, but like Ronald Regan said, how quickly we would all bond together if there was a threat of alien invasion...
or a huge asteroid headed our way...
I offer this thought, because it works for me... Lift up your head, and look further down the road... Be a long term thinker. Storms will pass... We need the rain sometimes, to wash away the tears of the lessons we bring upon ourselves...
Someday our society will think more of prevention instead of cure...
Life in prison will mean life, not half a sentence and out on parole to commit crimes again... Killing is one of the worst things you can do to another human, and it is
becoming less and less shocking with all the murders we witness on the news, in undeveloped countries, in the middle east and in movies...
But people, do unto others as you would have them do unto you!
If you kill someone, on purpose, then that means you want to be killed...
It means you have killed so many animals, and your heart is hardened and you have no respect for life insomuch that you look at other humans as just means for your own pleasure, and simply like a child want to take their body or possessions...
Children like that are a menace to society. Some never grow up...
If they commit crimes because they want a quick route to sexual satisfaction or material goods, and claim they cant find a job or work, then I propose we put them in a facility under lock and key after their offense, and put them to work...
Lots of potholes and clean up to do, lots of grafitti to scrub off walls and license plates to punch... If you dont value the freedom this country has striven so hard and sacrificed so much so that you can have such great opportunities to live and work in freedom, then maybe we should ship your ass to Afghanistan or Kenya and you can try the same shit over there, and see what it feels like to have someone invade your home, your body, and your right to Life...
Peace, out...
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/21/2008 8:16:48 PM | This is not Canada.
If someone invades your house, it is self defence to do away with the intruder.
If your house catches fire, you call the fire department, and use your fire extinguisher until they show up. 
In the case of the intruder, you call the police, and use whatever you have handy until they show up, being carefull not to mess up the rugs. (Although a copper friend of mine once told me : "Never mind the rugs. If you live, you'll change them!")
So there! | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/21/2008 8:43:16 PM | I once heard if someone is breaking into your home and you catch them you cant just kill them if you have a gun drawn on them, you have to call the authorities., cause at that point you have the situation under control. The scary thing might be if they run away from you you have to let them go too, but they could come back another day. "Catch 22" ... So what do we do? What about that million dollar football player that was recently killed by a home invasion... his life is gone now. He did fight back but did not have adequate weapontry to defend himself.
Can we wound the invaders if they run from us so they can be brought to justice? | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/22/2008 1:35:25 PM | if it happened more often that guys breaking in to homes were killed when they stepped in the door , there would be a lot fewer break ins
it is totally ridiculous to charge someone for protecting their property
if the crooks were scared they would be shot when they broke in then they would think twice
this part of the problem with the anti gun crowd; they take the guns away from the people that follow the law, but the crooks would still have the guns ( they already don't follow the law why would they follow this one ); this means that the crooks would have nothing to fear when they broke into someones home or business
although I believe that people should have a permit and be trained to use them properly, I think the more qualified and sane people with guns the better. that way the crooks would think twice about breaking in
it would save alot of money in court costs to ( LOL )
people should quit giving more rights to the crooks instead of the people that actually earn a living and invest in the community | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/22/2008 4:17:56 PM | I consider it self-defense, but there's a fine line. I am a smallish woman and am young. If I were home alone and someone broke in, I would legally be in my right to think I was in harm, and I doubt I'd get in much trouble for shooting the guy. However, if I were a big guy myself, they might make the case for "overreacting" and argue that I could have gotten the intruder to leave without killing him.
It's incredibly subjective. If women or children are involved, you probably won't get in much trouble for killing an intruder, but it depends. If the intruder is female, it's a whole different ball game.
I personally feel that an intruder is an intruder, and you shouldn't be punished for protecting yourself. However, if the intruder flees and you chase and kill him, that's murder. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/22/2008 7:52:30 PM | If someone breaks into my home, I don't think they are there to give my living room a new coat of paint. If I can take them out silently, and my neighbors don't hear anything they're going to just disappear without a trace. I really don't want to deal with the Police, the DA, or the legal system. Murder is premeditated homicide with malice before thought period......
I don't need a firearm, more people have been killed by edged weapons then firearms. Most men lately have no intestinal fortitude, what they need is a few months in a hostile environment. I think that every man should have to run for his life at least once in his life. If the crimminals knew that breaking and entry could be a Darwinism, i'm sure that crime would drop drastically. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/22/2008 8:13:36 PM | ^^^^^^
Yeaaaaah...riiiiighhht.
Anyway....although I'm a firearms owner and supporter I will always tell people that if you feel that you live in an area so rough that you feel you need a gun....you probably want to move.
It'd be easier all the way around... | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/22/2008 8:16:41 PM | my friend and I were discussing this earlier, and this is sick stuff, a man can force a woman down and tear her clothes off, force her to bend over, force her head in places for his pleasure, (sorry not a "man" an excuse for a human being) an if the woman reaches out and fights and the man has scratches on him SHE is going to jail. Something needs to be done about this stupid law.This is sick and wrong, "your word against mine" is going a little too far these days. That is why women have become more violent. Ask why there are vigilantes, because the law doesn't protect the innocent!
And I hope that son of a **** reads this! | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/22/2008 8:42:07 PM | Nicebluiz in Canada the law is that you have to store your long guns locked up or with a trigger lock. The firearm must also be unloaded. The nice thing about racking a shotgun is that the intruder does not know if you really give a damn about the law and that it is the universal sound of you are totally screwed buddy.
And for all you Americans that think Canadians are not allowed to defend themselves in their home that is just some posters wanting to get everyone riled up. The cop at the scene of the original post said we have a right to defend ourselves but they still have to investigate if someone got killed. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/23/2008 12:13:34 AM | In Canada, we have the right to defend ourselves and those in our care - not our property - using appropriate methods up to and including, deadly force. Death and injury will be investigated by police and the judicial system, as deemed appropriate. I would expect death by firearm to receive intense scrutiny. Read the previous posts to see why their actions "law-abiding" citizens need to reviewed by their civil societies' judicial systems to determine the appropriateness of the killings they undertook. The determination of "Justifiable Homicide" must not be made by the executioner, especially when he is willing to bear false-witness and "plant" evidence.
We can use reasonable force to inform and detain suspects for surrender to police. IMHO, people should be aware that the police, upon their arrival, will assume the person holding the weapon is the greatest threat to their security and take extreme measures to protect themselves. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/23/2008 12:47:22 AM | All I can say is ,
The moment he breaks thru my door and steps in ,
would be the moment of his last breath......
I would call police, after I had a 
Oh and if it was on football night. I would have to
wait untill the games over, before I call police.... | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/23/2008 12:48:28 AM |
In the case of the intruder, you call the police, and use whatever you have handy until they show up, being carefull not to mess up the rugs. (Although a copper friend of mine once told me : "Never mind the rugs. If you live, you'll change them!")
I absolutely agree with you on that one. If someone broke into my home and tried to cause hrm they would not leave again. I am fiercely protective of my home and my loved ones and no-one will get away with causing harm to either. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/24/2008 2:46:36 PM | In my opinion the burglar accepts the fact that he is risking his life when he breaks and enters. He knows what he is getting into. Being armed is irrelevant. An person can kill with improvised weapons or ones bare hands. While I wouldn't kill anyone. I don't think anybody should get in any kind of trouble for killing an intruder.
Besides, a burglar who dies sure as hell isn't going to be breaking into any more houses. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/24/2008 7:19:54 PM | "Anyway....although I'm a firearms owner and supporter I will always tell people that if you feel that you live in an area so rough that you feel you need a gun....you probably want to move."
The US Courts have repeatedly ruled that Police agencies have no duty to protect individuals; it is the individual to ensure thier own security. Moving from your home is only escaping the problems you know, for problems you don't know of yet.
I did move, way out into the country, far from the big city. I'm surrounded by active, and former, members of law enforcement. All of us keep loaded guns in our respective homes, for the same reason we all keep loaded fire extinguishers; in the unlikely event they are needed. Some of us keep rather large, and quite protective, dogs as well.
Criminals don't make appointments in advance, for when they are going to commit thier respective crimes. Home invasion is about violence, lots and lost of violence. The safety and security of my family and my home, is infinitely more important to me than the life of someone attempting to do harm to my family.
The criminal already has a goal in mind; entering my home to steal, or do my family harm. Upon entering my home, the invader will be greated by the dogs, which would deter, if not stop, most anyone with good sense. The dogs will be followed up by someone bearing a shotgun that knows well how to use it, not only as a firearm, but as an impact weapon.
Like nearly every person who owns a gun, neither I, nor anyone in my home, wishes to do anyone any harm. However, we are all prepared to change a home invader's mind about entering our home to commit a crime of any kind.
No sir, I will not move, this is my home, and I full well intend to defend it from invasion by anyone. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/24/2008 7:51:14 PM | ^^^^^
Let's see:
1) Home invasions primarily take place in immigrant communities (cash and jewelry are kept in the home and the invaders know the police may not be called) and in homes suspected of containing drugs or large amounts of cash (or both)
Home invasion should not be a fear for most people.
I'm sure the ex-cops in your area will agree w/ that statement.
2) Living in a rural area,crime is usually going to be significantly lower than an urban one.
I know where I live,most people leave their cars and doors unlocked.
Having a gun in such an area is usefully...but hardly "necessary".
A large,loud dog and nosy neighbors are equally effective as security.
3) Most experienced burglars (unless they are stoned,stupid or WANT somebody to be home) will NOT break into an occupied home.
The stakes are too high...the sentences when/if they are caught are too stiff...and people seem to forget this...burglars want to GET AWAY w/ the crime..something they are unlikely to do if someone's home when they break in...
Moving is a much more effective act than keep a loaded firearm in your home in the belief that this will stop somebody from breaking into your home.
If you live in a high crime area...and can afford to move...don't you owe it to your family to move them into a safer area rather than arm yourself and wait for situation that most people will be completely unable to handle? | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/25/2008 11:15:35 PM |
That someone simply breaks into your home, or steals something, gives you no right to kill them. Theft is why God created police officers, alarm , and insurance companies.
Problem with these statements is that if someone is brazen enough to break into a home how do you know they are just going to steal your valuables. Case in point: Sean Taylor who was shot in the leg and bled to death in a robbery attempt. If someone is in my home I am not going to put myself or family at risk by debating over whether or not this criminal is just looking to steal or do much worse. I'd rather be judged by 12 jurors than carried out by 6 pallbearers. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/26/2008 5:42:16 AM | Very good, and equally valid points have been made here:
"Home invasions primarily take place in immigrant communities (cash and jewelry are kept in the home and the invaders know the police may not be called) and in homes suspected of containing drugs or large amounts of cash (or both) Home invasion should not be a fear for most people. I'm sure the ex-cops in your area will agree w/ that statement."
This may very well be true, and is likely a point derived from statistics compiled from the Uniform Crime Report. Unfortunately, criminals don't read the Uniform Crime Report, nor do they call in advance to let you know when they intend to strike. Criminals, generally speaking, don't have much in the way of a plan, when it comes to committing a crime; merely the intent to commit their respective crime.
Most people shouldn't be fearful of home invasion, a feeling shared by myself. However, home invasion is on the rise, exponentially in fact. Fire shouldn't be a fear of most people either. But, anyone who owns a home, that is financed, is required to have fire insurance. That same insurance is costly when you buy it. But, it sure seems cheap after a fire, and your home has to be rebuilt. Not to mention, all of your belongings contained within your home.
Funny ex cops in my area would be mentioned. Several people in the area where I live, incluing myself, are either presently, or former Police Officers; we ALL keep loaded guns in our homes. While I don't, I would venture that many of these same neighbors carry concealed weapons when they're away from their homes as well. Guns are kept by law abiding citizens for various reasons, one of them being, in the unlikely event that one just may be needed to protect themselves, or someone else, from being harmed by a criminal.
"2) Living in a rural area,crime is usually going to be significantly lower than an urban one. I know where I live,most people leave their cars and doors unlocked.
Having a gun in such an area is usefully...but hardly "necessary".
A large,loud dog and nosy neighbors are equally effective as security."
Living in a rural area, you really don't have nosy neighbors. I grew up in the big city, and my neighbors knew more about what was going on in the neighborhood there, than any of my neighbors have since I've lived in the country.
While, statistically speaking, crime is lower in a rural area, statistics don't matter a whole lot, when you're becoming one. A personal case in point:
Christmas eve, four years ago, one of my dogs woke me up a little before midnight, wanting out. I thought she heard a deer in the yard she, and my other dog, had been chasing for a couple of weeks. When I opened the door, someone was trying to steal my car. I let the dogs out, and called the Sheriff's Department. While I was on the phone, I armed myself, and informed the dispatcher, so she could tell the resopnding officer I was armed, as well as what I was wearing. I didn't want to be mistaken for the criminal. When I went outside, I heard the guy yelling that he had a gun, and he was going to shoot. I didn't know who, or what, he was going to shoot. I knew help was on the way. But, I had to survive the next several minutes before help got there. I lived 20 minutes from the nearest city.
Lucky for all concerned, the criminal chose to climb a tree, in order to get away from the dogs. But, he kicked my dogs during his encounter with them, and he got bit. Large, loud, protective, dogs are a great deterrent to would be criminals, just as locks keep honest people honest. As it turned out, the guy didn't have a gun. However, myself, and the Police Officers who showed up at my house, and there were many, ALL took him at his word that he had a gun. It took a LONG time for this guy to convince the Police Officers there, that he didn't.
After being arrested, Scumbag told me that his boys would be coming to see me. I quietly let it be known that anyone else coming to visit, uninvited, would be leaving in a body bag. Some did venture to visit, uninvited, in the wee hours of the night, and were greeted by my dogs, myself, and my shotgun. Funny thing, but, after it was known that I meant business, I didn't have anymore unannounced, uninvited visitors, the rest of the time I lived there.
"3) Most experienced burglars (unless they are stoned,stupid or WANT somebody to be home) will NOT break into an occupied home.
The stakes are too high...the sentences when/if they are caught are too stiff...and people seem to forget this...burglars want to GET AWAY w/ the crime..something they are unlikely to do if someone's home when they break in...
Moving is a much more effective act than keep a loaded firearm in your home in the belief that this will stop somebody from breaking into your home.
If you live in a high crime area...and can afford to move...don't you owe it to your family to move them into a safer area rather than arm yourself and wait for situation that most people will be completely unable to handle?"
You're quite correct, Burglars, generally speaking, don't want anyone to be home. Home invaders, on the other hand, WANT SOMEONE TO BE HOME. The original post posed the question of killing a Home Invader, not a burglar.
I respectfully disagree that moving is a much more effective than keeping a loaded firearm in your home. When I lived in the big city, our home was never broken into. After I moved to the country, a criminal came to visit. Afterward, presumably true to his word, his boys came to visit me, following his arrest. It was only AFTER it was made clear that I was ARMED, and prepared, that I no longer had uninvited, unannounced, visitors to my home.
I believe that one owes it to his family to be prepared, come what may. There's a latin phrase: "If you want peace, prepare for war." There was a time, when most people could handle a threatening situation, regardless whether it was home invasion, or a fire. I keep fire extinguishers in my trucks, and at home, in case of fire. I keep a loaded gun at home, my family knows where it is, and how to use it, in case it's needed. We have large, protective, dogs at home, because I happen to like very large dogs; their being very protective of myself, my family, and my home, is an added benefit.
I have moved because my fiance' wanted a larger home, and more property, not in an attempt to run away from crime. Criminals live among us, that's reality. I happen to live where I do, because we like the home, and the land. That many of our neighbors are, or are former, Police Officers, is an added benefit, that we didn't learn of, until after we bought our home.
I never, ever, want to visit harm upon anyone. However, should my home be invaded, I am prepared to protect my family, and defend my home.
Bear in mind, the one thing that many state has kept other countries from invading the continental US, is that it would be a fight from house to house, as many people here keep guns in their homes. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/26/2008 2:16:42 PM | Christmas eve, four years ago, one of my dogs woke me up a little before midnight, wanting out. I thought she heard a deer in the yard she, and my other dog, had been chasing for a couple of weeks. When I opened the door, someone was trying to steal my car. I let the dogs out, and called the Sheriff's Department. While I was on the phone, I armed myself, and informed the dispatcher, so she could tell the resopnding officer I was armed, as well as what I was wearing. I didn't want to be mistaken for the criminal. When I went outside, I heard the guy yelling that he had a gun, and he was going to shoot. I didn't know who, or what, he was going to shoot. I knew help was on the way. But, I had to survive the next several minutes before help got there. I lived 20 minutes from the nearest city.
the tragedy is that you didn't kill the piece of shyt. even if you wouldn't have otherwise, and there is no rational reason not to, as soon as he said that he had a gun, you had every right, legally and morally, to blow him away.
i would have shot him as soon as he tried to kick my dog. that, in and of itself, justifies killing him | |
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