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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/19/2008 3:29:18 PM | Just a note - just because the clinic only does abortions does not mean that she did not miscarry.
When I was in my late teens, I got pregnant, thought I miscarried (had all the symptoms of a miscarriage - pain, bleeding, etc), but later learned that though the fetus died, I did not pass it or the placenta. In order to have it removed, I had to go to an abortion clinic and "technically" have an abortion - even though there was no viable fetus. I had to go through the same stuff someone getting an abortion would have to go through - the initial visit, the aftercare, etc.
So, please, don't jump to conclusions until you have ALL the facts.
She's under a lot of stress, both physical and emotional, right now - don't make it worse. | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/19/2008 5:17:19 PM |
The only Right to Lifers I respect are the ones who adopt unwanted children--especially those who would otherwise not be adoptable--like those crack babies that someone suggested the OP cuddle. (That really was the best suggestion here so far--for so many reasons.) Such people are the finest examples of Christian charity around and I have nothing but admiration and respect for them.
The rest of 'em have no business interfering and would do a lot more good by feeding the hungry, ministering to the sick, visiting the prisoners, and doing all those other things that Jesus suggested. They should also follow his advice to refrain from casting the first stone.
What those meddlers are doing has very little to do with Christianity and a lot more to do with their own sense of entitlement--imposing their will on others in the name of Christ. That is the _last_ thing that Christ would have advocated. "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's, and render unto God that which is God's."
Well said, Ace.
I work with children in a psychiatric setting and I've lost count of the number of times that I've heard a child, as young as five or six, say s/he wishes s/he'd never been born... and that's not just "dramatics" or "attention seeking" - knowing their life experiences and histories... they'd have been better off having never been born. Their "parents" (I use the term loosely) should NEVER have conceived - ever. The things these children have suffered at the hands of adults - biological parents, foster parents and other adults - would break a stable adult down to a gibbering mental mess.
I think people should have to spend a few weeks with a suicidal six year old and see what happens to these unwanted children who are born to parents who are unprepared and unable to care for them. It isn't just a few, either... I have seen thousands of these children.
It seems so many of the people who claim to be "pro-life" are only pro-life until birth and after that, well, they don't care. I respect everyone's right to have an opinion, but if you are going to force your opinion down someone else's throat, then please... put your money and time where your mouth is FIRST.
Become a foster parent or better yet, adopt one of the millions of children who desperately need a loving, caring stable home. Be the one who takes them to therapy three and four times a week, who regulates their medication, who advocates for them, who comes to the school when they flip out and throw desks and stab their teachers and peers with pencils, who talks them down when you wake in the middle of the night to find them standing over your bed with a steak knife, who holds them and consoles them when the nightmares and memories of past abuses and rapes and neglect get to be too much and they slice their wrists or try to hang themselves and sob uncontrollably for hours, be the one who runs out into the street into oncoming traffic to save them when they run out - trying to die. Understand that some of these children will NEVER be able to show you love or even affection in return because they are that badly damaged, understand that they may well abuse and hurt any children you already have, understand that they may kill your pets, sexually abuse others and burn your house down, understand that it will take a lot of money and time and that you will have to invest blood, sweat and tears into these children and you may still lose them to themselves and their histories. THAT is the cold, hard reality of these children's lives.
Sorry to go off topic, but it frustrates me so much to hear people blowhard about how "pro-life" they are when I see these children stuck in the system, bounced from temporary home to temporary home, sit in residentials for months and years... with no one to call a parent, with no one they know loves them. | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/19/2008 6:39:39 PM | I have only one comment to make in regards to the OP, i hope i read all the responses properly.. but i cant see anywhere that u know? she aborted? i dont know america.. but in australia abortion clinics are actually related to concieving, and vascetomy's etc.. and other birth related issues.. not just abortions alone.
u retreated from her without proper communication and seems that ur now looking to feel some sort of hate pity remorse for urself and her without communicating again.. to what validate ur reason for withdrawel? feel better about urself?
i think OP.. u need to start cleaning house.. take a good look at urself and what ur doing wrong in the process of relationships (any kind)... u cant control another persons actions (abortions or otherwise).. u can only control ur own..
as for alot of opinions on here.. most ppl i think need to do the same thing.. clean house within urself then if ur so anti abortion and christian.. do as one suggested, adopt the babies no one else wants, take the time to volunteer where needed.. start to act christian rather then having some hate opinion that is based on some high and mighty belief of god.. that really just suits ur own life rather then some devout love of god ..
if its a sin.. then god will sort it out.. but ppl like urself so full of hate.. and yet call urself christian.. i believe are way worse then any other kind of person on the planet.. ur devoid of compassion/empathy and i thought that was what christianity was all about? seems rather sociopathic if u ask me... | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/19/2008 6:51:27 PM | That's too bad for you, OP. The only thing I can say is that maybe you'll feel a little better with time. You know the deal--legally, the woman has full control over her body. If protecting a fetus from abortion is important to you--you had better start looking for a relationship with a woman who is explicitly against abortion.
Communication is crucial. | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/19/2008 8:29:37 PM | First, My deepest heartfelt sympathies for the loss of your child and your relationship.
Second, PTSD really does mess with you and your mind. I've been through that myself and I've had the panic attacks too, it isn't easy to understand the fear or the confusion of why you feel so lost and helpless, not being able to control your emotions. Very healthy of you to seek help for it, most people don't.
Third, I do believe you love Melissa regardless of how the circumstances turned out and you state it again and again. Regardless of how the events turned out, you stand by her and love her. I hope one day that I will find a man who loves me unconditionally even for my faults no matter how big or small as I would love him for his.
and last but not least, I wanted to tell you that you write beautifully. I wish all the best for you and hopefully have Melissa back into your life. | |
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dilf36
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Joined: 12/19/2007
Msg: 104 | |
| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/20/2008 7:29:06 AM | | waste of space once again youve posted more crap ,you and the rest of the ignorant pro woman half wits out there have forgotten that there are fathers out there that are willing to take on parent hood regard less of the mothers decision . . if a woman falls pregnant it is because she is careless a spreader or because she wanted to have a child . . ((pregnancies due to rape not included)). . if the mother does want an abortion fair enough but only after the father has been asked if he would like to be a parent and if the answers yes !!!!!! well yes or no the mother kills the child any way. . how is that fair , it isnt , ill tell you what is fair though and would nearly eradicate abortion clinic clientelle and that is a law should be passed that if a woman falls pregnant and subsequently wants to have the child aborted this shall only be granted after the father is asked what he wants and is some how means tested as to his ability , current situation etc . . if all is positive for the father then the mother should be made to see full term some how maybe in a controlled environment and supervised so as not to intentionally harm the unborn child . . A BIT HARSH , yes but so is killing an un born child and destroying a well to do would be fathers feelings . . and think about it if such a law were passed im sure there would be a lot more carefully planned pregnancies . . | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/20/2008 8:04:37 AM | like ur two pregancies were so well planned?
u seem to think things in life are so simple.. they aren't always.. is abortion ok if the father doesn't want the baby?
seems like u have some issues to sort out.. im sorry ur in pain.. and i almost made a comment about u having no idea re pregancy and what it takes.. but really.. ur opinion is fair.. but unfortunately life isn't..
sometimes just gotta deal with the blows as they are dealt.. and move forward.. but u seem stuck in one place?
ur son i take it.. as he grows up .. will be a responsible adult? perhaps thats what u have to teach.. from the lessons learned..
clean house.. its all u can do | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/20/2008 8:06:42 AM | Why couldn't she had the baby and given it up to you Op ... or adoption?
That precious baby didn't have a chance to be held and loved... sorry I am for abortion but just if the health of the mother or child are in danger or certain consequences occur during the pregnancy that are life threaten .. not just because some woman decides she doesn't love her man...She /he should of taken precautions when being intimate.
OP : you should get help with your anxiety , find a good doctor .. one needs to cure the pain that brought this on to move on... then you made be ready to seek that love you so much are searching for. I am deeply sorry for the lost of you unborn child... God bless you!  | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/20/2008 11:29:05 AM | ignorant pro woman half wits out there have forgotten that there are fathers out there that are willing to take on parent hood regard less of the mothers decision
I'm going to assume that you're still grieving and feeling bitter about your loss. I can totally relate, as there are some losses in my life that I have yet to get over.
I find it hard to believe that you really would choose to reduce a living person to slavery for the sake of a sexual partner's feelings, or that you'd saddle YOUR OWN CHILD with the burden of knowing that he wasn't wanted by his own mother.
But hey, if you really are willing to go to such an extent to get what you think you want, I can understand why a woman might choose to opt out.
This attitude is exactly why the Supreme Court had to draw the line somewhere. We can debate exactly where the line should be, but you can always find another woman to have a baby with. There are women in the world who are so poor and desperate that they'd seriously consider an offer to have a baby for you for a fee if that's what you really want.
But I don't think it is. I think you really wanted _her,_ and I think you wanted to have a child with _her._ That child. And even though I'm so mad at you I want to spit, I feel for you and wish for your sake that you could have had that. As with the OP, I hurt just thinking about your loss. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
But I _am_ mad at you, and here's why. The only person posting crap here, sir, is you. "Cretin ... ignorant pro woman half wits ... mother should be made to ..." When you begin with the personal attacks, you leave yourself open to a reply in kind, so here it comes.
OP, what I am about to say in no way applies to you. Your circumstances are different and tragic, and you might do well to skip the rest of this. But if you do read it, understand that I am not talking to you or about you in any way.
dilf, from what you've said so far, you appear to care only about yourself. In no way do you seem ready to be a father. Why do I say that? Because one day a child of yours (if you're fortunate enough to have them) is going to rebel. Whatever values you hold most dear, those are what that child will most forcefully attack. Until you are able to not only show, but to _have_ respect for those whose viewpoints most severely challenge your own, that child simply won't be safe with you. You'll take it as a contest of wills and do everything you can to break your child and make him conform.
How do I know that? Because of the complete lack of regard you've shown me, a stranger who's fully capable of tearing into you. What's to stop you from calling your helpless child a cretin and meaning it when he defies you? Only your own sense of restraint and decorum. But we've already seen that you have none, at least right now.
If you're lucky, you'll fail to break that child. But either way you'll do so much damage to his spirit that you'll both wish he'd never been born.
How do I know that? I watched my brother do it to both his kids, who are now almost totally alienated from him and whose prospects in life are looking very limited indeed.
So, do us all the courtesy of pointing that judgmental attitude of yours toward whatever it was in you that drove that woman to abort rather than have a child with you. You obviously have a good mind. Why not put it to good use instead of thinking up ways to force other to do your bidding because you just want what you want? Stop taking your bitterness out on me/us and grow the hell up. No law can save you from your own personal grief. Nor should it.
And, even though nothing on this Earth can save you from the pain that you brought on yourself, mad or at you or not there are many of us, including me, who are willing to support you in dealing with it--as sooner or later you must. Why? Because, unlike the contemptuous attitude you're now showing, some of us who disagree with you nevertheless have a basic respect for human life--including yours.
When the Bible says that the sins of the fathers are visited upon generations to come, I take that to mean that the consequences of having an unwanted child are multigenerational. It's not just you, the woman, and the baby. We're all invoved in the outcome and so are all of our grandchildren. So no, you don't get to have your way on this one. And yes, it is harsh, which is why I cannot say for anyone else what the lesser of the two evils might be. Nor sir, can you.
The person in whom that decision is vested is the woman who carries the fetus. Not you, and not me. I am not about to question her on it when so very much is at stake, and it is simply not your place to do so either. Should I have the power to tell you what job you'll do for the next 9 months just so that I won't feel bad? I don't think so. Who the hell do you think you are?
No. I'm instead going to pray that she is guided in her decision by the highest source of love, light, and wisdom, and that she gets all of the respectful support she needs in discerning the truth. So should you. And, if her answer brings me grief, I'm going to thank God that it wasn't worse.
Imagine, sir, if you will, how it might feel to you if you did have a kid, raised him badly (as your certain to do in your current condition), and then got to spend the rest of your days watching him struggle, fail, and have failed and messed-up childen of his own--children that YOU FAILED TO PREPARE HIM FOR. If that's the shame you really want to let yourself in for, if that's what you feel you're entitled to no matter what the cost to others, you're certainly taking the right approach to get it.
As far as I can see, that woman did you a huge favor and saved you more grief than you can possibly imagine--let alone deal with in your current frame of mind. Please change course for your own sake, as well as the rest of us, and especially for the sake of your kids.
Good luck to you sir. | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/20/2008 1:33:22 PM | There's a lot of arguing goin' on which won't be resolved through this thread. The abortion laws in most countries aren't gonna be changed anytime soon, either. There's no point in wishing the laws were different. Get involved in the political system if you want change, or else just accept the current laws.
Bottom line: have relationships with people you're compatible with on this issue, IF this issue is important to you. If you're pro-life, it doesn't make sense to have a sexual relationship with a pro-choice person. If you're pro-choice, why would you want to risk a pregnancy with someone who defends unborn life at all costs?
Communicate. Communicate. Communicate. | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/20/2008 2:29:49 PM | While people who are pro-life and pro-choice will never agree on the abortion issue, I think there is one thing that both sides should be able to agree on -- this thread was started by a person grieving a tremendous amount of loss and is, therefore, an extremely inappropriate place to be arguing about the rightness or wrongness of abortion. There are plenty of message boards all over the internet where people can discuss abortion, so we don't need to hijack this thread.
For the OP, I really can't add much to what has been said, but I can definitely sympathize with the pain you must still be feeling. I'm glad to hear your therapy is progressing well, too, and in time you'll simply come to accept what has happened. You just have to allow yourself the time.
And you will come to realize that if she's the type of woman who would do a thing like this to you, then she's not the type of woman you would have wanted to spend your life with anyway. | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/21/2008 2:39:43 PM | i would just like too put my fourpenneth in here.
no one knows what a woman goes through when terminating a pregnancy shes damned if she does and shes damned if she doesnt, Only another woman that has been through the same thing would understand or miscarriage. Who is anybody to judge this woman Melissa on what is right or wrong melissa had her own reasons for doing what she did it would of upset her and she would of been torn at the end of the day she did what she thought was best for her at the time. And for people to stand in judgement is not right not fair and above all not on.you have no idea of the names your called for doing what you have you are treated like dirt scum infact. none of us are perfect. years later i married and then i ended up divorcing and rasing a child on my own it is hard very hard i never did have anymore children i guess you should walk a mile in Melissa shoes AND SEE HOW IT FEELS!!!!!!!!!!!! | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/21/2008 2:51:22 PM | I'm sorry, something about this story just does not ring right.
Clearly if any of it is true, Melissa felt she had no other choice, and did not feel she had the support of Neil. Clearly she did not believe love from a man who was having emotional problems.
Sounds to me Neil rejected Melissa, and he's feeling guilty about it, looking to a list of strangers to believe him. Looks like Melissa has made certain Neil can no longer make promises and spin yarns, and she has "freed herself".
Neil has lost his possession.
Lacking in Neil's chronicle is the words "marriage proposal".
And as to Neil's wishing a child.... Gee....no woman or male is anyone's last hope.
I find love is defined differently by everyone who says it. Some of what is called love is simply unacceptable to another.
-cmp- | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/21/2008 3:00:15 PM | msg 101.... You write OT, but I believe THAT "just the point".
I abhor abortion, but equally abhor the inequities forced upon children, and too often against mothers and children from males when they're too immature for fatherhood....(be the male 15 to 100!).
Thank you for your wonderfully expressed insight.
and
msg 102...
Yah....I'd the same peception.
-cmp- | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/21/2008 3:26:47 PM | Please stop your ignorant arguring about pro choice ot not
TOTALLY IGNORING the mans post and the horrific pain he is going thru
You are a wonerful, kind, loving man
I am so sorry for your first trauma.. I have been through alot of trauma and understand ptsd and have treated it...
It is equally traumatic that your next trauma was loss of another child
and this time it was your child.
I wish hope and pray she will talk to you about exactly what did and did not happen...
Do you know why she will not talk to you?
That is how you are going to best get your answers which will help you get through closure
a curate hmmm
I do not know what that means as a verb
but as a noun it is....
Noun 1. curate - a person authorized to conduct religious worship; "clergymen are usually called ministers in Protestant churches"
minister, minister of religion, parson, pastor, rector
clergyman, man of the cloth, reverend - a member of the clergy and a spiritual leader of the Christian Church
ministrant - someone who serves as a minister..........
So forgive my ignorance and the woman who said she did not lie to you as she told you she was getting a curate done>
Could somone please enlighten me on exactly what that means?
ty
Bottom line terrible trauma for anyone and I feel for you
You are obvisouly such akind loving man capable of such great love...
I would stay in the same therapy you were in for the ptsd as this is another one and related to a child being killed this time yours
I hope you will continue with that dr...
I am wondering and forgive me please if I am wrong but she does sound alot younger than you..
and there are so many variables
I think you need to not judge what happened until you know what happened from her mouth and
do not listen to her "flat" mates"
I really do not know what to say
In the future when you are ready
to love again
and feel that love again which now seems so impossible to you
as It does to us all and becasue you keep on mentoining how much you love her
I hope you go much much slower and marry first then have sex
since that will take care of 99 percent of the potential chance of this happening to you again
See ing that you are comfortable with marriage this is why I suggest it
it does not mean a wife cannot do this to a husband but it is highly unlikely
and
no matter how m uch you say you love her
you HAVE TO LOVE YOURSELF MORE'
YOU HAVE TO PUT YOU FIRST
AND i can hear alot of codependeny possibly confused as love here???
Maybe I am wrong
but You have to love yourself first forget her and take care of you now
other then trying to talk to her if she really is not willing
then you just have to love youuuuuuuuuu
i would love to hear you saying how much you love you
how much you are taking care of you now
not a word about her or you love her or defend her
actually you have a right to be very angry at her
and very sad
and you cant use love to jump over those feelings
or you will never get closure from her
its a way of not being willing to let go
to even admit you are angry with her
and what she did in her dishonety for whatever reason
abortion or d and c she had and being with someone else in 2 weeks
you have a right to be angryyyyyyyy
and hurt
and you need to look out for you now
take all tha tlove you hadddddddddddd for her
and put it towards you now
and to God
and keep loving you and worrying about you
and nottttttttttttttttt about her
and how next time youc an find out more about someone before investing so much love
and more about their morals like others have said
and marry her before you have sex
no wonder the bible says that
I use to call myself a recovering catholic and saw the bible and God as this mean judgemntal man who was trying to keep me from having fun aka sex
since i love sex and love making
but you know noneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeof these problems herpes diseases abortions blah blah blah heartbreak none of this would have happend if we were virgins and were innocent and married like God wants who I am seeing now as the loving father he is who wnats the best for his children and is much wiser than us
and makes alot of sense
I never thought IIIIII would be saying that but I am
soooooooooooooo
wait till you get married
and then have sex
then have a baby together plan it out
and then youll be ok
get to know the woman better all about her moral feelings about pregancy
and all that
Again I am so so sorry foryou stay close to God and I will pray for you
and you have to move on
There is someone in your way of speaking that makes me feel like you will stay stuckkkkkk on her and not let go
I do not know if this is becasue it is 2 weeks new and you are traumatized and all that
but it forgive me reaks offfff
an unwillingness to stop loving her
you can choose to stop loving her
romantically
you need to chose to stoppppppppp loving her
and love you
God who you speak of commands we love ourselves too
and everytime you romantisiz her remind yourself of the cold hard facts
of who she really is
not who you thought she was or who she thought she was
every time and then get your focus back on YOU YOU YOU AND LOVING YOU
FORGET MELISSA ITS ABOUT YOU NOW
ok
God bless let go of her
and take care | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/21/2008 3:34:00 PM | msg 62
Neil, this addition "underlines" my perceptions!
Your therapist offers you a book.....that book is so passe'.... Difficult for me to believe a therapist's ego would refer you to a book, unless he/she is also frustrated with you.
And....you, at age 49... What....with all this baby drive...were you a Monk prior to Melissa?
Creative writing comes to mind often in these forum relatings.
You are looking for justification and excuses. That's fine...just another human quality, and should be considered just so.
-cmp-
Oh...and if anyone actually reads, this has not been boy vs girls....'cause there are girls who buy into Neil, and males who are speaking beautifully from the female quest for quality of life; not ownership. | |
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| Lies, deception and abortion not a miscarriage
Posted: 1/21/2008 3:39:07 PM | of course God says to love and forgive and you can love her
but NOT ROMANTICALLY LOVE HER ANYMORE
you can SPIRITUALLY LOVE HER FROM AFAR
but the love you keep speaking of is IN LOVE
AND ROMANTIC LOVE
and that you haveeeee to let goooooooooo of asapppppppp
you have to take care of you
or it becomes an obession and codependency
and that have got nothing to do with real love
okkkkkkkkk
You keep repeating you love her you love her you love her
got it
but you need to let go of that
and LOVE YOU
YOUR IN A VERY DANGEROUS situation to have to go througth this while still going through your ptsd again seeing 2 children killed and then feeling your baby was killed
There is such apowerful thread in this and such similar feelings
you need to sort out with you dr what is for those children what feelings and what is about his loss of this child which is yours
which you feel was also 'killed"
soooooooooooooo
You have so much to deal with on yourrrrrrr plate
do that
take care of you
melisaa has moved on and is taking care of her
its your job to take care of you
and get the help you need
and you need even MORE NOW since all this
and this is a huge trigger as they call it for your original ptsd
im sure your dr has told you all this
if not find a new one
so let go of this romantic im in love with melissa
and love and heal thyself
ok
its harder to do and easier to obsess on someone else and the more we do
liek an unhealthy addiction we actually avoid the realllllllllll pain
and the real issues
you know what I mean
God bless
You will learn and you will love again
But YOU need all your love now for youuuuuuuu
not melissa she has hers all set let her go
take care of you | |
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