|
|
|
|
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/12/2008 4:15:53 PM |
Christ is presently sitting on the throne and reigns in the spiritual realms...He is said to be at the right hand of God.
Are you denying that Christ is presently sitting on the Throne of God's authority, and instead saying that satan is presently the ruling authority?
Is Christ ruling on earth?? Where is Satan - must be in the lake of fire according to your theology.
According to your explanations the Kingdom came with the sign of the destruction of the temple. However ya missing the point of :-
(Luke 17:20 KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/12/2008 4:33:06 PM | if your a christian I suppose you believe that .... but how can hypricrites believe in something other than there own personal agendas?????? get real....  | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/12/2008 5:06:16 PM | Is Christ ruling on earth?? Where is Satan - must be in the lake of fire according to your theology.
According to your explanations the Kingdom came with the sign of the destruction of the temple. However ya missing the point of :-
(Luke 17:20 KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
rightly dividing the Word of truth is what should always be kept in our objectives.
Jesus said..John 12:31
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
The kingdom of God is within I agree. in fact I would even go as far to almost say that Christ never really addressed the things concerning heaven as we often consider heaven to be, but stayed focused on expressing to the disciples of earthly things. When Christ spoke of the kingdom of heaven, He spoke of the manifestation of it in the earthly realm.
Yes satan is in the lake of fire as well as all his messengers and followers....but ONLY when they are confronted with the Truth of God's Word and are in the presence of the Lamb and His messengers. we are the Lamb's messengers and when we speak His gospel, satan and his messengers come under judgment and are driven out. The fire satan and his messengers are devoured by is God's Word, whether the fire is revealed by being in the presence of the Lord or by those who carry God's word within them and speak His message.
Jeremiah 20:9
But if I say, "I will not mention him or speak any more in his name," his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.
Jeremiah 23:29
"Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?
Revelation 2:18
"To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze
Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
To sum this all up God's Word is manifested in/as Christ for the purpose of bringing judgment on evil. The Word is like fire that torments those who are under judgment because they are in rebellion and disbelief...John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
In reality we all qualify as sinners just as those who are listed in the passage in Revelation that are tormented....but when the justification of faith reassures us of who we believe, then all judgment and condemnation is also removed from us.
The torment in the presence of the Lamb and lake of fire is in this earthly realm and is ongoing even now for those who do not believe and stand condemned, because this judgment has been put in effect through the cross. | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/12/2008 5:48:22 PM |
(Rev 11:2 KJV) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
(Rev 11:3 KJV) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(Rev 11:4 KJV) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Consig - you claim that the 42 months was during the trampling of the holy city around 70AD - so who were the two witnesses?? | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/12/2008 5:59:50 PM |
"> (Rev 11:2 KJV) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
(Rev 11:3 KJV) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(Rev 11:4 KJV) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Consig - you claim that the 42 months was during the trampling of the holy city around 70AD - so who were the two witnesses??
They are exactly who John says they are... two olive trees and the two candlesticks/lampstands.
There are seven lampstands representing the seven churches...five of these churches had issues that disqual;ified them as faithful and two churches were given recommendation...The two witnessess are the church in Smyrna and the church in Philadelphia.
“John, to the seven churches in the province of Asia….”
[NIV]
It is remarkable that this point has escaped so many commentators on Revelation. There was only one small window of time in which there were only seven congregations in the area of the Roman province of Asia (modern day Turkey). Paul had established nine congregations in that land (in nine cities), but the churches at Colosse and Hierapolis are not mentioned in the address and letters of Revelation.
The reason for this is that these two cities, along with Laodicea, were subjected to a great earthquake in approximately A.D. 61, and all three were destroyed. Philip Schaff states that Laodicea was rebuilt soon after the earthquake, but Colosse and Hierapolis were not rebuilt. Because these towns were quite close together, we can presume that the surviving believers from these two places consolidated with the congregation in Laodicea at that time. This left seven churches in Asia Minor during the five years just prior to the beginning of the war, the most likely time for the writing of the Revelation and the letters of John (where he states “we know it is the last hour” – 1 John 2:18).
After the war, Christianity spread much more rapidly and widely due to the removal of the Jewish persecutors (although pagan Roman persecution was still prevalent for many years to come). Many new congregations would have certainly been established by the time of A.D. 95 or 96, the time of the “late date” theory of authorship.
In another rationalization, it has been asserted by some that the number “seven” here is only symbolic, with the various congregations’ conditions typifying all such possible church conditions. Revelation is certainly a book of symbols, as we have been exploring, however, there are times within the book where literal speech is evident, such as this opening preamble. This is the “address” of the letter, and states specifically that it is sent to “the seven assemblies which are in Asia” (literal rendering). Note the phrasing: “the seven, not just “seven” or “a seven,” and the specific location: “which are in Asia.” If the intent was to speak of a symbolic seven churches here, John would have said something like: “John, to Seven Churches.”
| |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/12/2008 6:42:40 PM | | The two witnesses are as I have said before are the Jewish people and the Gentile church - once you can get into your head - the other stuff fits in quite nicely - ya think that ole Dome of the Rock sat in the court of the Gentiles is mere decoration?? | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/12/2008 9:56:03 PM |
The two witnesses are as I have said before are the Jewish people and the Gentile church - once you can get into your head - the other stuff fits in quite nicely -
Well then nevercanezzer let me throw a glimpse of reality into your neatly concocted delusion. The Jewish people are not one of the symbolic witnesses spoken in Revelation. On the contraire, they are the harlot, and Mystery Babylon.
I'll start with this passage
Revelation 18
"With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.
22The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No workman of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.
23The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world's great men.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
24In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earth."
Jerusalem is the only city that can claim to being the Lord's chosen nation, and also guilty of the blood of the prophets and the saints.
8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
Babylon, Sodom, Egypt are figurative expressions for wickedness and evil just as John says here, that they are figurative expressions....John gives the literal description of the city he is referring to by the definition "where also their Lord was crucified" The Lord was crucified in Jerusalem and though Jesus was Lord of all creation, He specifically came first to the Jews as thier Lord.
ya think that ole Dome of the Rock sat in the court of the Gentiles is mere decoration??
based on the information above that the Jewish people are not one of the witnesses then it MUST be assumed that the rock is thier for decorative purposes only.
FWIW, Revelation 18 :21-24 is spoken in not so many words in Ecclesiastes 12 | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/12/2008 10:39:03 PM | Well then nevercanezzer let me throw a glimpse of reality into your neatly concocted delusion.
 ahhhh - Consig - ya Config.sys file has got corrupted - ya need to reboot that brain!!
Indeed Sodom, Egypt are given as a description for the holy city :-
(Rev 11:8 KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
But whether Jerusalem can be equated with the Babylon of Revelation I would not be so quick to jump at.
(Rev 18:18 KJV) And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
When has Jerusalem been known as "this GREAT city.
(Rev 18:21 KJV) And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
As for the two witnesses :-
(Rev 12:13 KJV) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
The woman are the Israelites - although YOU would allegorize this to mean the Gentile Church.
(Rev 12:14 KJV) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
(Rev 12:17 KJV) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The remnant of the womans (Israel) seed keep the commandments of God till this day - the Jews still keep his commandments while blinded to the gospel - therefore they are one witness.
The Gentile remnant are the second witness and "have the testimony" of Jesus..
PS - the Gentile church does not keep the commandments - we are not under the law.
I'm just here to torment you before the time .... | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/12/2008 11:03:18 PM | (Rev 12:17 KJV) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The remnant of the womans (Israel) seed keep the commandments of God till this day - the Jews still keep his commandments while blinded to the gospel - therefore they are one witness.
The Gentile remnant are the second witness and "have the testimony" of Jesus..
PS - the Gentile church does not keep the commandments - we are not under the law.
More ammo for my stance!
Now who was it that said....
1 John 5
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
I believe it was John, and the same John who wrote in Revelation
(Rev 12:17 KJV) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Sorry nevercanezzer but the Jews don't keep the commandments of God, nor do they have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
but they are guilty of slaying the prophets as is also charged of the great city, Mystery Babylon...Could it be that there are two nations guilty of killing the prophets of God? Not that is recorded in scripture there isn't.
Matthew 23
30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.
So the Jews are infact the ones who are guilty of killing the prophets...and not only the prophets, but also they are guilty of persecuting the saints according to Paul....
1 Thessalonians 2 (Young's literal concordant)
14for ye became imitators, brethren, of the assemblies of God that are in Judea in Christ Jesus, because such things ye suffered, even ye, from your own countrymen, as also they from the Jews,
15who did both put to death the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and did persecute us, and God they are not pleasing, and to all men [are] contrary,
16forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the anger did come upon them -- to the end! | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/12/2008 11:14:27 PM | More ammo for my stance!
Firing blanks Consig..
The commandment Christians keep is
(John 13:34 KJV) A new commandment I give unto you,That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
(John 13:35 KJV) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
We do not keep the commandments of the law for through that is the knowledge of sin.
(Gal 3:24 KJV) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The faithful Jew is still practicing the law and keeping those commandments.
Ya can't have ya allegory and eat it - heading to bed - peace. | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/12/2008 11:26:20 PM |
Firing blanks Consig..
The commandment Christians keep is
(John 13:34 KJV) A new commandment I give unto you,That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
(John 13:35 KJV) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
We do not keep the commandments of the law for through that is the knowledge of sin.
(Gal 3:24 KJV) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The faithful Jew is still practicing the law and keeping those commandments.
Ya can't have ya allegory and eat - heading to bed - peace.
you would be hard pressed to find a Jew keeping the law of Moses after AD 70, without a temple to offer the daily sacrifices in.
And nobody said the commandments spoken of here, refer to the law of Moses except for you. John never said that commandments referred to the law of Moses, but He did say that they were established commandments of God that were being kept and also accompanied by the testimony of Christ, and there is no reason or justification to assume the law of Moses is implied here by John either, and for you to suggest that this is referring to the law of Moses is quite absurd. John is describing Christians, in both passages..this cannot be argued. | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/13/2008 9:57:41 AM | (Rev 14:8 KJV) And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
How can it be said that Israel/Jerusalem "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."
(Rev 17:5 KJV) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
(Rev 17:9 KJV) And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
(Rev 18:2 KJV) And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
How does this apply to Israel/Jerusalem "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies".
(Rev 18:9 KJV) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
When did the kings of the earth commit fornication with Israel/Jerusalem??
(Rev 18:21 KJV) And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
The voice of the bridegroom (Jesus) and the bride (the believers) - this and all of the above is more applicable to the Roman Church - a lamb that speaks like a dragon.
Seems to me that John has gone to great lengths to explain the city of Babylon rather than using the Sodom/Egypt designation for Jesrusalem (where our Lord was crucified).
Do you really think that God who judged the rulers in Israel with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is not also in like manner judge the great whore - that whore who has persecuted his people the Jews and true disciples of Christ? Get ready the shyte is gonna hit the fan.
(Rev 11:4 KJV) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Paul in Romans describes what the two olive trees are :-
(Rom 11:17 KJV) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
God is going to graft the branch that was broken off back in and soon :-
(Rom 11:24 KJV) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
That fullness of the Gentiles is about done. Notice how Paul speaks of the broken off branches as being broken off from their own olive tree - salvation is of the Jews!!
Of course this is just my opinion. | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/13/2008 12:22:18 PM |
Of course this is just my opinion.
personal opinions are just what they are, nevercanezzer. I am only interested in what the scriptures have to say on these matters and not what traditions of men and modern theories have to say.
Of course Israel was the betrothed bride and God was the Bridegroom. Read the numerous parables of Christ concerning the marriage, virgins, faithful and unfaithful servant. Of course Israel is called adulterous and is the only nation that can be accused of being adulterous because no other nation was ever chosen and betrothed to God spiritually except for Israel. You cannot be considered an adulteror unless you are betrothed to another and become unfaithful. No other nation was called to be faithful to God except for Israel.
Just because you cannot see how this all fits as Israel doesn't mean it isn't so. The scriptures are clear that Mystery Babylon is where the Lord was 'thier Lord' and was also crucified. These are two cold hard facts that cannot be ignored, and you doing so only proves that you have no real interset in what the scriptures teach, but are more interested in validating your own theory instead. | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/13/2008 3:56:31 PM | This thread seems to be jumping across millenium of time ...
I am only interested in what the scriptures have to say on these matters ..
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses ...
4: these are the "two" olive trees and "two" candlesticks
the first two
11:5-6: can call down fire from heaven, shut heaven so it doesnt rain (42 months)
Wintess is Elija who called down fire at Mt Carmel and shut the heavens from rain for the exact same tim of 42 months.
-can turn water into blood and smite the earth with plagues - witness is Moses who is the only other in scriptures to do such. Both Elijah and Moses represent the law and prophets (appeared at the Transfiguration)
- the second "two"
Elijah and Enoch didnt die and yet death is "appointed" to all men (Heb 9:27) These two bear testimony, given special powers and then are killed finally meeting their "appointed" death. | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/13/2008 10:20:57 PM | ^^^^^welcome river_loon...your comments are always appreciated.
Get ready the shyte is gonna hit the fan.
indeed. But what does that Scripture say?...something about "Judgment must first begin..with the house of God." It stands to reason to me, that if Christ is returning FOR His Bride...He will 'make' her ready. Or better, purify her. Does anyone have some good Scriptural backing for this? Some believe it to be the Great Tribulation period. | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/13/2008 11:30:25 PM | I will say a couple of more things concerning the 'two'witnesses' spoken of in Revelation and then leave it at that because I don't think many are on my same wavelength according to the scriptural interpretations that are given for us to ponder about.
What is a witness? And what is a candlestick?
A witness is someone who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit..Just as Christ told His disciples that they were to be His witnesses when the Holy Spirit had come upon them. A witness has but one function and that is to testify and reveal the glory of God the Father. If you study the passage in Revelation, it mentions them as the 'Olive tree' This same word is used in scripture throughout the gospesl and always to refer to the Mount Of Olives. Paul uses this word to describe the symbolic 'Olive Tree" that God is grafting together, but Paul doesn't use this same word when he speaks of the 'wild olive tree' or the 'good olive tree' in the same verse. If we consider the sermon on the Mount, it's purpose was to reveal the glory of God, both through the sermon that taught us the heart's desires of the Father in heaven, and the physical manifestation of Christ unveiling His Divine glory and illuminating the mountainside.
The purpose of the Olive Tree is to reveal the glory of God and produce and manifest the fruits of the Holy Spirit...in doing so, we are actually bearing witness and testimony of Him on the earth.
Now the candlesticks are the same as the lampstands. The same word is used in the greek and is only used in Revelation to symbolize the churches.
What does God say He will do if the churches fail to repent?
Revelation 2:5
Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
Warnings were given to five of the seven churches leaving two candlesticks that remained faithful and producing fruit.
John was quite clear on explaining that the witnesses were the two candlsticks(churches) Why does anyone want to add to his words or change what he says about this?
1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
If we truly look at all the writings of John, his letters, his gospel, and his Revelation, we will see the pattern of John proclaiming and bearing witness of Christ as the Creator God, and also explanations of the Spiritual birth of the Godhead dwelling in human flesh. The testimony of Christ coming and dwelling in our human flesh is the very evidence of the Spirit of God being at work in us. If we cannot testify to christ dwelling in our human flesh, then obviously we can't acknowledge having the Spirit of God either. | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/14/2008 3:30:48 AM | YOU SAID" Hal Lindsay's Book "The Late Great Planet Earth" caused quite a stir when it came out years ago - its predictions of a great tribulation and the second coming of Christ seems to have failed so far - does the bible support a great tribulation and the second coming?
===================================================
I think its interesting how scared we are as a society. Our society as a whole seems to live in fear of almost everything.
We fear the animals around us, we fear the dark, we fear each other, we fear the war that hasn't come, we fear when a number changes, we fear our gods we create, we fear the earth, we fear outer space.
I can't wait until we discover new life out there, so we can start fearing that :)
GHPiNK | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/14/2008 4:30:01 AM |
I will say a couple of more things concerning the 'two'witnesses' spoken of in Revelation and then leave it at that
Consig: I'm sorry to hear that as other points of views are always interesting to me and it has been an interesting thread but I know how you feel ...
As repeatedly pointed out "context" is everything when trying to interpret the Scriptures and since Chp 11 is being discussed we cant just ignore what it says the witnesses have power to do. Witnesses are also required by Jewish law (and not just the Holy Spirit) Egypt which is referred to is always referred to as an example of showing the power of God (not just the olive tree) Sodom/judgement (with a chance to escape if taken) ... so I think it does say basically what you are interpreting it to say. I just choose to reference more of the OT because the promises of God to Israel have not been fufilled as yet and must be taken into consideration. | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/14/2008 5:26:33 AM | Loon and consig...
I'm pretty sure that Hollywood and Rome are part of the mystery of babble 0n... I mean lets face it God gave us Popes and Movie Stars and even let's us chose between Charlton Heston and Morgan Freemon as his image. Or if you're really tired of male monopolies on the devine image we even have Alanis Morrisette... but it is most commonly agreed upon in a recent poll that most likely God looks alot like Charton Heston.
Anywho... the real culprite is the systematic destruction of the faith using the faithful to tell the whole story so as to make it over kill.... you know? I mean the lips of the priest are supposed to guard knowledge but instead we give it all away and the pups and oinkers trample us down and lick our faces making us laugh hysterically and become more and more ineffective. We really are worthless servants who've only done our duty when it was so heavy on us that it took amphibian bile to discolorate our skin to the point where people had to listen to us.
OP
Hal sold some books didn't he? Is Jesus coming back? Well... sing this song with me... "Here come da judge, Here come da judge, everybodies talkin cause uh here come da judge." Because the song is very prophetic... everybody is indeed a talkin!!! | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/14/2008 9:44:32 AM | (Mat 24:1 KJV) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end (Greek - suntelia)of the world (age)?. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
suntelia
completion, consummation, end
(Mat 24:6 KJV) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end (Greek - telos) is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.
telos
1) end
a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
b) the end
1) the last in any succession or series
2) eternal
Jesus plainly tells the disciples that the temple will be destroyed. "see not that ye be troubled for all these things must come to pass". Then Jesus goes on to say that the end (telos) is not yet - i.e. not associated with the destruction of the Temple. Because what must happen after that and before the end (telos) is "nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows"
The are two "ends" here :-
1) the end of the age - destruction of the temple
2) the end of the world - its destruction and the creation of a new heavens and earth...
(Rev 21:1 KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
| |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/14/2008 10:46:41 AM |
Jesus plainly tells the disciples that the temple will be destroyed. "see not that ye be troubled for all these things must come to pass". Then Jesus goes on to say that the end (telos) is not yet - i.e. not associated with the destruction of the Temple.
After reproaching the scribes and Pharisees in the previous chapter, Jesus had just left the great Temple of Herod in Jerusalem and his disciples gathered around him to marvel at the tremendous building that was God’s abode on earth. Jesus asks them (verse 2):
“Do you see all these things?…I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
[Mt 24:2, NIV]
A little while later, his worried disciples came to him and asked him:
“Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
(Mt 24:3)
From this question, many people have taken the whole of the rest of this chapter to refer to the final “end of the world” – the end of the physical universe, the end of time as we know it, and the second advent of Jesus Christ. Many “schemes” of interpretation from many well intentioned brethren have been placed on the various events Jesus says will come to pass before the “end of the world.”
A student reading this passage in some of the modern translations such as the NIV, may not so easily assume an end-of-the-world interpretation, because the passage is more accurately rendered:
“When will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
[NIV]
They were not asking about the end of the physical planet, but rather the end of the “age.” The Greek word here is from “aion,” which means an “age, indefinite time, or dispensation,” rather than the Greek “kosmos,” which refers to the land or actual world. The King James translators used the word “world” in the same way we might say “the world of the Middle East” meaning the world of peoples and cultures of that area.
The disciples, being familiar with Hebrew prophecy, knew that the Messiah was going to bring their society to some kind of culmination in order to establish his great kingdom – the Kingdom of God. They simply wanted to know when Jesus was going to accomplish this promised feat, especially since he had just indicated the start of the process with the coming destruction of the Temple itself, which was the center of these people’s earthly life.
Jesus, in answer to their question, warns them to beware of false deceivers and then begins to list many signs and events that would come to pass. Let us look for a moment at one of these events, found in Matthew 24
“14 “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come.”
Now let us ask the question: was the gospel preached in all the world? To a modern Christian, that seems obvious. There are many people in many places that have not received the gospel of Christ. Missionary efforts are ongoing to rectify that, of course, but it is an unending job. Certainly, the “end” has not come, so the verse seems to make perfect sense. Yet, let us read what Paul states in Romans 10:18 –
“But I say, have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.”
and in Colossians 1:5-6, he says:
“…whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; which is come unto you, as it is in all the world.”
Lest there be any question of Paul’s words and meaning, look at how he restates this concept in no uncertain terms in verse 23:
“…be not moved away from the hope of the
gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven.”
Colossians 1:23, KJV.
Apparently, Paul believed that the gospel had been preached to all the world, even to every creature! What can he mean by this? It is obvious that he did not mean every human being on the planet had been preached the gospel of Christ. Even with their limited knowledge of the size and population of the globe, Paul and his contemporaries certainly were aware of the extent of the Roman empire and of the pagan civilizations outside that realm.
Keeping that question in mind, let us remember that this preaching of the gospel was a fulfillment of Christ’s prophecy in our study passage of Matthew 24:14. The final event of Christ’s prophecy says:
“…and then shall the end come.”
Did the end of the world come upon them? Look at Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 10:11 –
“Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”
and Hebrews 9:26 –
“For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”
When did Christ sacrifice himself for sin? Of course, it was on the cross, and this event took place, according to this verse, in the “end of the world.” Once again, the NIV and others translate the word “world” correctly as the end of the ages, and that is the proper sense of the passages quoted. To understand what has ended, however, it is helpful to ask ourselves, “What world ended because of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross?” Plainly, it was the world of people who lived under the old system of Law that Christ came to fulfill – the Law of Moses. It was the world of Judaism that had ended. As we shall see, it ended not only in a legal and religious sense, but also in a dramatic physical destruction.
It is now easier to understand how Paul and others could report that the gospel had been preached to all the world. It had been preached to the world of the Jews! This was the world in question – the world of the prophecy in Matthew 24:14.
| |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/14/2008 12:03:03 PM |
The disciples, being familiar with Hebrew prophecy, knew that the Messiah was going to bring their society to some kind of culmination in order to establish his great kingdom – the Kingdom of God. They simply wanted to know when Jesus was going to accomplish this promised feat, especially since he had just indicated the start of the process with the coming destruction of the Temple itself, which was the center of these people’s earthly life. As a Jew, I would remind Christians that the Jewish response still applies. By looking out the window, we see that this is, unfortunately, not the Messianic era, not the "Kingdom of God", and that Jesus disappointed. Those of you who are Christians are welcome to think otherwise, but not to disrespect Judaism. The Jewish religion still continues, and is not just a predecessor to Christianity. Christians like you who continue to bad mouth the Jewish people represent a nasty brand of Christianity. You say
We are not one of the symbolic witnesses spoken in Revelation. On the contraire, they are the harlot, and Mystery Babylon.
The Dome of the Rock sat in the court of the Gentiles is mere decoration?? based on the information above that the Jewish people are not one of the witnesses then it MUST be assumed that the rock is there for decorative purposes only.
I call this anti-Semitism, and say this is evil. | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/14/2008 12:31:14 PM |
Christians like you who continue to bad mouth the Jewish people represent a nasty brand of Christianity. You say
We are not one of the symbolic witnesses spoken in Revelation. On the contraire, they are the harlot, and Mystery Babylon.
The Dome of the Rock sat in the court of the Gentiles is mere decoration?? based on the information above that the Jewish people are not one of the witnesses then it MUST be assumed that the rock is there for decorative purposes only.
I call this anti-Semitism, and say this is evil.
bear45408
I have no intention in my heart to badmouth the Jewish people or anyone for that matter. I am only offering the understanding of what I see as written in the scriptures.
If I was to be implying slanderous remarks towards the Jews as you suggest, then how could I also believe that they really had no say in this, but was all according to the will and purposes of God Divine agenda for the entire human race. If I was to badmouth anyone, then it would have to be God that I rail against, because I see all things accomplished according to His will and not ours. You have read my posts bear45408, and you know that I am a believer of the full restoration of all things created, through Christ, ..My theology is not one of exclusion, but is all inclusive.
I understand your beliefs, in the sense that they are different than what I believe, and I am not attacking your beliefs, I am discussing what is written in the scriptures, and not necessarily the scriptures that give us that warm fuzzy feeling.
As far as being anti-semitic, you are wrong. If I was to discuss how God used the Egyptians for His vessels of wrath in Moses day, am I being slanderous to the Egyptians? No..... I am just discussing what I see as historical according to the scriptures. | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/14/2008 1:14:22 PM | Well this two horse race is going well - Nevercanezzer in the lead by 30 furlongs - consigliere31 trailing after a bite on the hoof by a Bear.
  | |
|
| Is there really a Second Coming?
Posted: 1/14/2008 1:59:56 PM | | Ok statue ... thanks for the pearls. However, you do know that only real pearls increase their lustre with wear ;) sighs ....as she dons the cultured. | |
|
|
| Page 3 of 6
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 |
|
Home
login 
