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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/13/2008 6:14:16 AM | Sleep is Mother Nature's way of reminding us mere humans to bow to her glory each and every day. To keep us humble and realistic among other things -- like sane.
Why we haven't evolved out of it? We are not as sophisticated as we like to think. That's just an illusion of the light of day and nighttime proves it wrong. | |
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Peice
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Joined: 11/8/2007
Msg: 27 | |
| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/13/2008 11:13:13 AM | Who or what would attack me when I'm sleeping? And if I'm hungry I have a fridge filled with food. If we were talking about 2-3 million years ago then that question would be valid, but we're on top of the food chain and do not require a mutation that would eliminate our dependence on sleep. I personally think that there is no disadvantage to sleeping.
Now, if we were living alongside another race that hunted exclusively at night and were competing with us for food and land, then mother nature would slowly give us a helping hand to counter their attacks; but that's just hypothetically speaking. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/13/2008 11:24:49 AM |
And any organism would have a distinct advantage if it could shoot laser beams out of it's eyes, fly at super sonic speeds, move mountains with enormous strength, etc, etc. Yeah, but no animals exist which can do all that, without a massive loss in some other manner. There is an animal which doesn't sleep, because it has an enlarged frontal lobe. I cannot remember which one it was, because I saw it a long time ago on a nature programme. But there is one. Why couldn't we just have a bigger frontal lobe? One part to do the regular jobs, and one part to organise stuff? How about an automatic method of relaxing our unused muscles, to make sure that we release tension and toxins from our body?
Consider for a moment an ant, one that is being dropped from a tall building. In almost every case that ant will walk away unharmed. Scale that up to a human being dropped from a relatively similiar height (which would be kilometers), and it's extremely unlikely said human will survive. It's doubtful that such an ability would be capable of being introduced into a human. I believe that the maximum speed of falling in our atmosphere is usually something like 135 mph. S if the natural instincts and flexibility of a cat were to evolve into humans, which allow it to twist and turn in freefall, limiting its damage quite a lot, and most humans evolved to have slightly denser bones, as some humans do, it would be a severe advantage. Heck, merely a greater degree of balance and quicker reflexes, would eliminate most accidents anyway. So why doesn't our sense of balance increase? Maybe a second set of balancing organs, in the ankles, and a third set, in the hips, would do it quite nicely. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/13/2008 11:42:50 AM |
Yeah, but no animals exist which can do all that, without a massive loss in some other manner. There is an animal which doesn't sleep, because it has an enlarged frontal lobe. I cannot remember which one it was, because I saw it a long time ago on a nature programme. But there is one. Why couldn't we just have a bigger frontal lobe? One part to do the regular jobs, and one part to organise stuff? How about an automatic method of relaxing our unused muscles, to make sure that we release tension and toxins from our body?
You're asking why we aren't more intelligently designed, when I've already pointed out evolution is not an intelligent design, it's an evolved design that simple works.
It would be great if humans could eat and not choke, like dolphins that have a seperate airway and a seperate system for eating. That could be considered an intelligent design move, but since we're not products of intelligent design, you are defeating your own question.
It's doubtful that such an ability would be capable of being introduced into a human. I believe that the maximum speed of falling in our atmosphere is usually something like 135 mph. S if the natural instincts and flexibility of a cat were to evolve into humans, which allow it to twist and turn in freefall, limiting its damage quite a lot, and most humans evolved to have slightly denser bones, as some humans do, it would be a severe advantage. Heck, merely a greater degree of balance and quicker reflexes, would eliminate most accidents anyway. So why doesn't our sense of balance increase? Maybe a second set of balancing organs, in the ankles, and a third set, in the hips, would do it quite nicely.
And you expect all these traits to be cost free? Yes, cats undoubtably have a superior sense of balance, flexibility, greater relative strength, etc. Ironically, they also sleep a lot more than us humans too if you've noticed. A trade off for certain superior capabilities in one area, while we have tradeoffs in others. Interestingly, we have the much larger brain and are effectively ruling the planet.
Yes, humans could have more dense bones, but you're mistaken if you think this is a free concept. Any organism that is more solidly built is going to need more resources (ie: food) to maintain that build and strength.
You need to understand that concept of "cost to benefit" ratio, and furthermore you need to drop the idea that organism are evolved intelligently as opposed to simply evolved in a way that works in their particular enviroment. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/13/2008 12:19:02 PM | @just-a-dream
I don't know why you assume that I am "under attack". I do not believe that I am "under attack" at all. I prefer the scientific, psychological explanations rather than ones involving the spirit world and chakras. However, if there was a spirit would, I would not choose to have my mind shut it out for the sake of a night's sleep. I would be far too curious. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/13/2008 1:06:14 PM | @just-a-dream
If we all evolved the same way, expanding our thoughts without grounding oursleves to the Earth and here and now, rather than fly around in la la land being far too curious, we would become open to sleep deprivation as you appear to be Um... so you're saying I'm "flying around in lala land" and "too curious"? And you justify this explanation with no science or evidence, but vague references to being "too open to the spirit world" (what spirit world would this be?) and chakras...
I think that accepting bizarre explanations without question may lead a person to greater "weirdness" than my "overthinking" and "being far too curious". I have experiences of poor sleep that seems to back up some of the theories about the purpose of sleep, which is the topic of this thread -- why we need sleep and why we have not evolved beyond it.
OT
I thought of a better analogy the other day. As we go through the day, experiences stack up in a short-term memory store, much like pieces of paperwork on a desk. At night, the office door is closed, so that no new paperwork can be introduced and cause confusion as the filing process goes into operation. Our conscious experiencing mind goes offline. The new memories gained are processed and sorted into the appropriate long-term storage system, linked and cross-referenced to relevant existing material. This is a process in the subconscious. This would completely match with the dreams I have: it is as if I am witnessing this filing process. The analogy fits too with the problems associated with sleep deprivation which include loss of cognitive power and memory problems: the desk which has not been cleared is too full to work on in a satisfactory way and stuff keeps falling off the edges of it.
PS Just-a-dream: take care what you post because making personal attacks is not what this thread is about. You should be addressing the Original Topic, not me personally. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/13/2008 6:43:32 PM |
You're asking why we aren't more intelligently designed, when I've already pointed out evolution is not an intelligent design, it's an evolved design that simple works. That is your assumption. Please stop trying to make assumptions about what I have written, and stick to reading what I have written. I asked simply WHY we didn't evolve a trait that would make us far more likely to survive. Taking into consideration that evolution is not intelligent, and that different people sleep for different amounts of time, it would make sense for those living beings that sleep less and still function well to become the dominant group. The fact that animals need sleep suggests that the process of evolution is not oriented towards what works better, and we are simply reading that into it, because that is what we would like to believe. A simpler and more effective explanation would be that those animals with similar traits that get to reproduce in a greater proportion compared to their number, quickly become the dominant species, even if their survival rate and longevity is cut much shorter than those animals with different traits.
It would be great if humans could eat and not choke, like dolphins that have a seperate airway and a seperate system for eating. That could be considered an intelligent design move, but since we're not products of intelligent design, you are defeating your own question. Again, you keep trying to read your own beliefs into other people's words. It would be great to have 2 airways, but that would require a significant change in the structure. We've already developed an ability to hold our breath, so it is unnecessary. Anyway, we need to chew our food a lot before we eat it, as it has been shown that just quickly munching and swallowing is not good for our digestion and lowers the amount of nutrients we can extract from our food. So the idea of having to breathe when we are not swallowing, means that we have to can only take one swallow at a time, which encourages us to chew while we breathe. So it would be counter-productive in some ways for humans to have 2 separate airways, because we would need more digestion in the stomach and intestines, and as it is, digestion seems to use the most work of all of our bodily functions. As we don't need it, and it would be counter-productive in some ways, and would require major reworking of the body, during which generations we might be less likely to survive while the changes occur, it would be more effective not to evolve such a system. However, an additional nerve bunch that would generate an automatic reflex for the Heimlich manoeuvre, in a similar way that we automatically sneeze, would probably be incredibly useful for a very small cost, as many people choke to death.
And you expect all these traits to be cost free? Yes, cats undoubtably have a superior sense of balance, flexibility, greater relative strength, etc. Ironically, they also sleep a lot more than us humans too if you've noticed. A trade off for certain superior capabilities in one area, while we have tradeoffs in others. Interestingly, we have the much larger brain and are effectively ruling the planet. I think you are trying to tie in sleeping with balance, flexibility and strength. There is nothing to tie in, because your muscles don't get bigger, more flexible or more balanced as you sleep. However, what cats do do, is they often stretch, in all sorts of ways, and stretching has been tied to all 3. Stretching increases your flexibility, because you stretch your reach. Stretching increases your balance, because as you stretch, you better feel how your body supports itself, and you learn to balance yourself more easily. Stretching increases your strength, because different stretches make you support your entire weight on different muscle groups, so each of those muscle groups develop to support your entire weight. Some types of stretches us Hooke's Law to increase that force to as much as several times your own weight. So by your own POV, the instinct to stretch more often would be a very useful survival trait.
Yes, humans could have more dense bones, but you're mistaken if you think this is a free concept. Any organism that is more solidly built is going to need more resources (ie: food) to maintain that build and strength. I quite agree this is not a free concept. You need more calcium. But calcium comes from many sources: milk, fish, nuts, vegetables, are all good sources. Besides, I'm not talking about a bigger body, because that would mean bigger everything and would make no difference. I'm talking about a slightly heavier bone structure. That would require slightly more muscle fibres. Something would have to give. That would be the size of some organs. But given that the current lung capacity of most adult humans is 5-6 litres, and we only use about 0.5 litres on average, and we have a similar lack of use of most of the nutrients in our food, if we were far more efficient in both how much we use our lungs and how much of our food that we use, we could lose half our lungs and digestion and still have plenty for redundancy. But I'm only talking about a 10% drop in each system, and that loss to be increased on those bones that tend to take the most weight and break the most, like the pelvis, the shoulders, and the lower legs.
You need to understand that concept of "cost to benefit" ratio, and furthermore you need to drop the idea that organism are evolved intelligently as opposed to simply evolved in a way that works in their particular enviroment. You need to understand the concept of thinking a "cost to benefit" ratio through, to drop the idea that whatever happened was because of a magical evolution, and that anyone who doesn't think like you must think "organism are evolved intelligently", and are automatically wrong.
Evolution is just a process of the iteration of randomly selected mutations. As such, it is controlled by the laws of Chaos Theory and Stochastic Processes. You don't get to dictate what would be more likely to evolve. Chaos Theory and Stochastic Processes do.
I thought of a better analogy the other day. As we go through the day, experiences stack up in a short-term memory store, much like pieces of paperwork on a desk. At night, the office door is closed, so that no new paperwork can be introduced and cause confusion as the filing process goes into operation. Our conscious experiencing mind goes offline. The new memories gained are processed and sorted into the appropriate long-term storage system, linked and cross-referenced to relevant existing material. This is a process in the subconscious. This would completely match with the dreams I have: it is as if I am witnessing this filing process. The analogy fits too with the problems associated with sleep deprivation which include loss of cognitive power and memory problems: the desk which has not been cleared is too full to work on in a satisfactory way and stuff keeps falling off the edges of it. I have a big problem with this sort of thinking. My sleep doesn't help me process more stuff. When I am depressed, I sleep more. But I don't wake up clearer at all. What usually happens is that in my waking time, I have a revelation, which then perks up my mood, and then when I am asleep, things get resolved.
It's more like the clerk who files while the office is closed, is required to work according to the policy of the office workers, which is defined by the office manager during the previous day. But the office manager never gets to meet the filing clerk, or get an idea of how much was filed. All the office manager gets to do is reference the files.
So he'd have to call in an efficiency expert during the day who can go through the files, and make recommendations to the office manager on how to plan his day workers, which will eventually filter through to the night worker, when he reads the office memos to the day workers. I think we'd call that a therapist.
Or, he could read books on how to make his office more efficient, and change his day policy, which (hopefully) would filter through to the night workers. I think we'd call that self-help books.
Either way, I cannot have obvious and direct control on what happens when I sleep. That usually makes it lost down-time for me. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/13/2008 9:19:34 PM |
I have a big problem with this sort of thinking. My sleep doesn't help me process more stuff. When I am depressed, I sleep more. But I don't wake up clearer at all. "Clearer" in this sense refers only to the short-term daily memory store being cleared and being stored in long-term memory, networked with older memories. Clear in the sense I was describing would mean that you performed better in cognitive and memory tests after getting sleep than if you went without sleep for a night. It may well be that for a complete cycle of learning to occur, the functions of your conscious mind are required. But I suspect not. Have you ever gone to sleep puzzling over a crossword clue or similar and then woken up in the morning and known what the answer was without consciously thinking any more about it? Among people I've spoken to, this seems a quite common occurrence. Another example would be the advice of "sleep on it" -- if a difficult decision needs to be made. Where does that old wives tale come from?
I agree that the conscious mind can have a hard time interpreting the subconscious one. I am in a strange position in that respect due to having had dreams every night for so long that it has been impossible for me not to learn the language of my subconscious to some extent and to spot patterns that relate to the old and the recent experiences.
You may find this page interesting: http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Understanding_Depression/understanding.htm I think my body has long ago reached the stage of waking me up early to reduce the amount of stress my dreams cause, whilst you are in the stage of sleeping extra because you need more restful sleep to make up for the extra dreaming. I haven't really got theories on the restful sleep thing and the need for it because if I get any, my conscious mind is not aware of it (probably it would be impossible for it to be). I can only see it as a time where the office workers sit down and have a cuppa and let the dust settle. :) | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/14/2008 1:16:18 AM | What about photosynthesis. Maybe somehow sleep is related to that. I think as humans we make things so complicated. Maybe it has some sort of evolutionary relationship with plants. which only photosynthesize during daylight hours. Somewhere someone mentioned how were related to single celled organisms. As a multicellular organism etc. don't we have certain biological similarities; metabolism, cell structure, rna..... We have similarites with fungi, protists, bacteria....
I like this topic!!!!!!
If something is living, does it sleep? Do prokaryotes sleep? Never thought of it before..... | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/14/2008 12:51:56 PM | "^^^ Ever since we developed fire, we don't really need to sleep, because we only sleep because we cannot see and therefore cannot function." HUH?
I always thought we needed sleep for our body systems to rest and re-generate.
Maybe we haven't "evolved out of it" because we don't "evolve."
Or, Maybe we will, eventually. After a million or so more years. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/14/2008 5:19:16 PM | As the world turns.......oops...dark all of a sudden.. I can't see very well, so I can't hunt, gather food, etc, etc....might as well recharge the old duracells....snore....
Besides...ever notice that for the past 20-30 years, our sleep has become an issue? Newer beds, more comfortable pillows, etc, etc. Check an old health book....most people needed 8-10 hours of sleep. Today...6 is considered the "norm". People are tired....they are not refreshed by their sleep now. They wake up at a certain hour to be on the job from 7-9 AM. They don't have time for a decent breakfast. Companies want their productivity...so what hits the market? Energy drinks! Ever see a commercial where an energy drink was imbibed just before going out to party with friends? Nope...always "at work".
Got things to do around the house? Try sleeping in. Your body will let you know when you've had enough rest. Go shower...grab a bite to eat...then hit the chores.
This is more in tune with yourself, your body, and a much more natural way of living. Humans were never meant to be kept "on a shcedual" for sleep, work, free time, etc.
The only reason society is like that today is because of corporations. It all works down to the $$$....as usual. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/14/2008 5:31:14 PM |
"Clearer" in this sense refers only to the short-term daily memory store being cleared and being stored in long-term memory, networked with older memories. Clear in the sense I was describing would mean that you performed better in cognitive and memory tests after getting sleep than if you went without sleep for a night. It may well be that for a complete cycle of learning to occur, the functions of your conscious mind are required. But I suspect not. Have you ever gone to sleep puzzling over a crossword clue or similar and then woken up in the morning and known what the answer was without consciously thinking any more about it? Among people I've spoken to, this seems a quite common occurrence. Another example would be the advice of "sleep on it" -- if a difficult decision needs to be made. Where does that old wives tale come from? I find I don't dream at all when I am feeling depressed. When I "sleep on it" and the answer pops up in the middle of the night, or the next morning, has always been when I was already in a good mood the night before.
It seems to me, that when I am depressed, I wake up with the same sluggishness in my sleep as when I went to sleep the previous night, and that when I am happy and alive, I wake up with the same joy and vivacity in my sleep as when I went to sleep the previous night. I don't know why this is. This just seems to happen with me. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/14/2008 5:45:21 PM | | No matter how efficiently you design an animal, sleep will always be part of the solution because you wont to maximize the alertness of the animal during specific times. If an animal has a constant state of arousal it is totally inefficient. The human brain especially needs sleep. Its sad how the good answers are totally ignored. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/14/2008 6:06:17 PM |
No matter how efficiently you design an animal, sleep will always be part of the solution because you wont to maximize the alertness of the animal during specific times. If an animal has a constant state of arousal it is totally inefficient. The human brain especially needs sleep. Its sad how the good answers are totally ignored.
To add to that, that's why adrenaline isn't a constant, even if there are adrenaline junkies out there.
Furthermore, this also adds to the cat example, whereas they are excellent hunters that are fast, strong and relatively intelligent. Naturally they cannot maintain this level of activity for very long periods, hence the extended sleep patterns they have relative to humans. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/14/2008 9:37:43 PM | | I think the most basic analogue as to why we need sleep can be found in bears and their hibernation cycles. Why do bears doxze the winter away? Because food(energy) is scarce and a slowed metabolism from lack of activity works best. Humans are still animals, and the time that we would not naturally be inclined to be out foraging for food is better spent having us inactive, burning up less energy, which in nature is typically far more limited. Preserving our sanity is a benefit of it, but when you compare a normal persons caloric requirements to for example a navy seal undergoing their sleepless training, the demands placed on the body jump substansially. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/15/2008 12:03:49 AM |
I find I don't dream at all when I am feeling depressed. Dreams are part of the normal sleep cycle. Typically an adult spends 2hrs dreaming per night and most dreams occur within the REM part of the sleep cycle. The fact that you don't recall your dreams doesn't mean that you don't dream. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/15/2008 5:06:23 AM | Look at machines, A diesel engine can run for much longer periods then higher octane machines without rest, we are very high octane machines and you still must do maintenance on diesels, change the oils, belts, pulleys etc.
When most humans sleep it is extremely healthy in all aspects, breathing becomes more deep, heart rate is reduced but flow is smoother as the muscles are relaxed and fed nutrients and oxygen while poisons are removed to disposal systems.
As high octane machines without rest and maintenance our systems would burn out, ill regular heart beats. blurred vision, our lubricates (oils) that cool and heat us would thin past usefulness, electrical over heating as the wires have conducted too much for too long would short out and arc.
Kind of a silly question as what you are suggesting is on the order of perpetual motion and even the Bible says that God rested.
Plainly put
Why have we not evolved out of the need for it? we would be extinct. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/15/2008 3:04:23 PM | There are some cases noted in humanity where certain people do not sleep. They do need to rest though...the body will take only so much...but they do not sleep.
I can't remember the medical condition this is. They seem to have a relatively normal life...some hold down a couple full time jobs. Nothing too strenuous though.
The brain needs a break, but seems to go on anyways...just different parts of it function during sleep.The mucsles have to slow down and rest for some odd reason.
A lot of study goes into the reasons why we sleep and need rest, especially in the military. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/16/2008 2:26:04 PM | This is way too easy. We need sleep for multiple reasons and to those of you who feel like you still need it. Sleep reduces stress, revives brain function and recharges our energy for the next day and many, many other reasons. So before you even start thinking that we can go without sleep, go to a psychologist, psychotherapist, or even a sleep therapist and ask them what it would take to evolve far enough to not need sleep.
As a society, we haven’t even evolved enough to call our self anywhere as evolved as we truly have anyways, so lets focus on the other things that we can change, like gender roles in society; the concept of positive thought; not having to be a society that rely on money and the economy. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/16/2008 5:00:19 PM | Thank you scorpiomover. You make very valid arguments about my OP.
It seems to me, that when I am depressed, I wake up with the same sluggishness in my sleep as when I went to sleep the previous night, and that when I am happy and alive, I wake up with the same joy and vivacity in my sleep as when I went to sleep the previous night. I don't know why this is. This just seems to happen with me.
When we reach REM sleep we produce serotonin which is an important neurotransmitter which is essencial for our well being.
Studies has shown that people who are depressed don't have REM sleep so have a chemical imbalance within the brain.
It seems people are trying to debate WHY we need sleep which wasn't really what I asked. I underststand why we, and almost all biological creatures need sleep it to regenerate.
If we look at nature, where ever there is a niche to be filled then something has evolved to fill it. Most creatures have evolved mechanisms in order to facilitate sleeping safely. Why would a preditor evolve to be nocturnal, for example when it would have been a shorter, more successful evolutionary path to be able to go without sleep altogether?
Again, it still doesn't negate that a creature that doesn't need sleep would have a big advantage....a big niche in nature that hasn't being filled.
Even if it were a creature that lives fast and dies young.
The fact that no creature has capitalized on this niche actually speaks of intelligent design does it not? | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/17/2008 12:24:01 AM | | Man, you have not read the replies, OP. If pigs could fly, they also have an advantage. I guess the fact pigs dont fly speaks of intelligent design. Lots of animals have short and feverish lives but they still require sleep. How long can you last without sleep? People who cant sleep die. Stupid. Stupid. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/17/2008 12:31:35 AM |
If we look at nature, where ever there is a niche to be filled then something has evolved to fill it. Most creatures have evolved mechanisms in order to facilitate sleeping safely. Why would a preditor evolve to be nocturnal, for example when it would have been a shorter, more successful evolutionary path to be able to go without sleep altogether?
This assumes that their isn't biological limitations that inherently require sleep in complex organisms. | |
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| Sleep. Why have we not evolved out of the need for it?
Posted: 1/19/2008 8:00:25 PM |
This assumes that their isn't biological limitations that inherently require sleep in complex organisms. That's a good possibility. From what I've read, most processes and most organisational structures in any organism is replicated on the cellular level, including respiration, digestion, excretion, movement, reproduction, and brain activity. So a good proof of this would be an experiment that shows that cells sleep. But I've never ever heard of an idea that suggests that cells "sleep".
That is why I have a problem with sleep. Why do we need sleep, if our bodily functions are replicated in cells, and yet we need sleep but our cells don't seem to need sleep? | |
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