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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 1/24/2008 4:39:41 AM | My big question it he scheme of things
Why didn't Noah swat those two mosquitoes? | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 1/24/2008 5:55:10 AM | .... someone really needs to tell the American Indians, the Australian Aboriginals, many African cultures, and those darn Chinese that their civilizations were WIPED OUT 4,000 years ago because I don't think they got that memo.
Lol, they wrote the memo's:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology) | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 1/24/2008 7:04:36 PM |
Lol, they wrote the memo's:
Have you looked at your sources?
Do floods occur NOW more or less worldwide?
Don't answer that. It holds true for the past as well.
Is the timing of the various myths the same?
Don't answer that.
Are the stories the same?
Don't answer that.
Does one Biblical family repopulate the world after they land in the lands of Ararat?
Don't answer that. From your first source:
Welsh:
The lake of Llion burst, flooding all lands. Dwyfan and Dwyfach escaped in a mastless ship with pairs of every sort of living creature. They landed in Prydain (Britain) and repopulated the world. [Gaster, pp. 92-93]
Kwakiutl (north Vancouver Island):
Very long ago, a flood covered everything but three mountains, one near Bella-Bella, one northeast of there, and a hill called Ko-Kwus on Don Island which rose with the flood to stay above the water. Nearly all people floated on logs and trees in different directions. Some people had small canoes with anchors and managed to land near their homes when the water subsided. Of the Hailtzuk only two men, a woman, and a dog survived. One of the men landed at Ka-pa, one at another village site, and the woman and dog at Bella-Bella. The Bella-Bella Indians descended from the marriage of the woman and dog. There was no fresh water when the flood subsided. The raven showed people where they could dig for a little water and how chewing on cedar brought water into their mouths. This sustained them until a great rain came which filled the lakes and rivers. It is still understood, though, that without cedars there would be no water. [Frazer, p. 321]
Correct me if I'm off a bit...nowhere near Ararat, and not relatives of "Noah"?
Is there evidence for cataclysmic local flooding in the past?
Don't answer that either.
Flooding of the Mediterranean.
Flooding of the Black Sea shortly thereafter.
Flooding of the large parts of Idaho and Washington.
Flooding by various other glacial lake outbursts.
From your first source:
Greek:
Zeus sent a flood to destroy the men of the Bronze Age. Prometheus advised his son Deucalion to build a chest. All other men perished except for a few who escaped to high mountains. The mountains in Thessaly were parted, and all the world beyond the Isthmus and Peloponnese was overwhelmed. Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha (daughter of Epimetheus and Pandora), after floating in the chest for nine days and nights, landed on Parnassus. When the rains ceased, he sacrificed to Zeus, the God of Escape. At the bidding of Zeus, he threw stones over his head; they became men, and the stones which Pyrrha threw became women. That is why people are called laoi, from laas, "a stone." [Apollodorus, 1.7.2]
Arcadian:
Dardanus, first king of Arcadia, was driven from his land by a great flood which submerged the lowlands, rendering them unfit for cultivation. The people retreated to the mountains, but they soon decided that the land left was not enough to support them all. Some stayed with Dimas, son of Dardanus, as their king; Dardanus led the rest to the island of Samothrace. [Frazer, p. 163]
Samothrace:
The sea rose when the barriers dividing the Black Sea from the Mediterranean burst, releasing waters from the Black Sea in a great torrent that washed over part of the coast of Asia and the lowlands of Samothrace. The survivors on Samothrace retreated to the mountains and prayed for deliverance. On being saved, they set up monuments to the event and built alters on which to continue sacrifices through the ages. Fishermen still occasionally draw up parts of stone columns in their nets, signs of cities drowned in the sea. [Frazer, pp. 167-168]
Transylvanian Gypsy:
Men once lived forever and knew no troubles. The earth brought forth fine fruits, flesh grew on trees, and milk and wine flowed in many rivers. One day, and old man came to the country and asked for a night's lodging, which a couple gave him in their cottage. When he departed the next day, he said he would return in nine days. He gave his host a small fish in a vessel and said he would reward the host if he did not eat the fish but returned it then. The wife thought the fish must be exceptionally good to eat, but the husband said he had promised the old man to keep it and made the woman swear not to eat it. After two days of thinking about it, though, the wife yielded to temptation and threw the fish on the hot coals. Immediately, she was struck dead by lightning, and it began to rain. The rivers started overflowing the country. On the ninth day, the old man returned and told his host that all living things would be drowned, but since he had kept his oath, he would be saved. The old man told the host to take a wife, gather his kinfolk, and build a boat on which to save them, animals, and seeds of trees and herbs. The man did all this. It rained a year, and the waters covered everything. After a year, the waters sank, and the people and animals disembarked. They now had to labor to gain a living, and sickness and death came also. They multiplied slowly so that many thousands of years passed before people were again as numerous as they were before the flood. [Frazer, pp. 177-178]
Turkey:
Iskender-Iulcarni (Alexander the Great), in the course of his conquests, demanded tribute from Katife, Queen of Smyrna. She refused insultingly and threatened to drown the king if he persisted. Enraged at her insolence, the conqueror determined to punish the queen by drowning her in a great flood. He employed Moslem and infidel workmen to make a strait of the Bosphorus, paying the infidel workmen one-fifth as much as the Moslems got. When the canal was nearly completed, he reversed the pay arrangements, giving the Moslems only one-fifth as much as the infidels. The Moslems quit in disgust and left the infidels to finish the canal. The Black Sea swept away the last dike and drowned the workmen. The flood spread over Queen Katife's country (drowning her) and several cities in Africa. The whole world would have been engulfed, but Iskender-Iulcarni was prevailed upon to open the Strait of Gibraltar, letting the Mediterranean escape into the ocean. Evidence of the flood can still be seen in the form of drowned cities on the coast of Africa and ship moorings high above the coast of the Black Sea. [Gaster, pp. 91-92]
Yep. I see a global flood HERE. No local Black Sea flooding. None at all.
Kootenay (southeast British Columbia):
A small gray bird, despite the prohibition of her husband (a chicken hawk, Accipiter cooperi), bathed in a certain lake after picking berries in the hot sun. There she was seized and raped by a giant in the lake. The bird's husband shot the monster, who in revenge swallowed up all the water to keep others from having it. The woman pulled out the arrow, and the water rushed forth in a torrent. The husband and wife escaped to a mountain until the flood receded. (In variant versions, the woman was seized by a giant fish or water animal. The husband killed it, and its blood caused the flood. The husband escaped up a tree.) [Kelsen, pp. 147-148; Frazer, p. 323]
The K'tun'ax'a live where? More or less the north shores of the glacial lake that scoured Washington many times.
Sarcee (Alberta):
The world was flooded, and one man and one woman survived on a raft on which they collected all kinds of animals and birds. The man sent a beaver (or, some say, a muskrat) diving to the bottom, and it brought up a little mud. The man shaped this to form a new world. It was at first so small that a little bird could walk around it, but it grew and grew. [Frazer, pp. 314-315]
I am, right at this moment, sitting at the bottom of the same glacial lake as these people now do.
In fact, I found the Greek story rather telling. I've added the bold portions:
Greek:
Zeus sent a flood to destroy the men of the Bronze Age. Prometheus advised his son Deucalion to build a chest. All other men perished except for a few who escaped to high mountains. The mountains in Thessaly were parted, and all the world beyond the Isthmus and Peloponnese was overwhelmed. Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha (daughter of Epimetheus and Pandora), after floating in the chest for nine days and nights, landed on Parnassus. When the rains ceased, he sacrificed to Zeus, the God of Escape. At the bidding of Zeus, he threw stones over his head; they became men, and the stones which Pyrrha threw became women. That is why people are called laoi, from laas, "a stone." [Apollodorus, 1.7.2]
The first race of people was completely destroyed because they were exceedingly wicked. The fountains of the deep opened, the rain fell in torrents, and the rivers and seas rose to cover the earth, killing all of them. Deucalion survived due to his prudence and piety and linked the first and second race of men. Onto a great ark he loaded his wives and children and all animals. The animals came to him, and by God's help, remained friendly for the duration of the flood. The flood waters escaped down a chasm opened in Hierapolis. [Frazer, pp. 153-154]
An older version of the story told by Hellanicus has Deucalion's ark landing on Mount Othrys in Thessaly. Another account has him landing on a peak, probably Phouka, in Argolis, later called Nemea. [Gaster, p. 85]
The Megarians told that Megarus, son of Zeus, escaped Deucalion's flood by swimming to the top of Mount Gerania, guided by the cries of cranes. [Gaster, p. 85-86]
An earlier flood was reported to have occurred in the time of Ogyges, founder and king of Thebes. The flood covered the whole world and was so devastating that the country remained without kings until the reign of Cecrops. [Gaster, p. 87]
Nannacus, king of Phrygia, lived before the time of Deucalion and foresaw that he and all people would perish in a coming flood. He and the Phrygians lamented bitterly, hence the old proverb about "weeping like (or for) Nannacus." After the deluge had destroyed all humanity, Zeus commanded Prometheus and Athena to fashion mud images, and Zeus summoned winds to breathe life into them. The place where they were made is called Iconium after these images. [Frazer, p. 155]
"Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years" since Athens and Atlantis were preeminent. Destruction by fire and other catastrophes was also common. In these floods, water rose from below, destroying city dwellers but not mountain people. The floods, especially the third great flood before Deucalion, washed away most of Athens' fertile soil. [Plato, "Timaeus" 22, "Critias" 111-112]
I found THIS myth rather informative. It begins by identifying the flooding of the Black Sea, a local, if large event, and one which I have mentioned more than once as the source of the Biblical myth.
It then has an "ark" with a few survivors and all the animals. It has a world-wide flooding version. It has destruction of the "wicked". It has a line of kings following the flood, it even has the creation of man from mud, life being breathed into him by the king of gods. I've got to thank you for this reference. It pretty much seals the fate of the Biblical global flood, and sizable chunks of the Old Testament, as little more than derivations of Greek myths derived from the flooding of the Black Sea. It's likely [guaranteed - the Black Sea flood is fact, the migration of Black Sea peoples afterwards is also fact] that the same myth spread thousands of miles in every direction, and the different stories were later rejoined with the mistaken belief that everyone having the same myth meant the flood was everywhere. It just means they all had ancestors in the same place.
I'll skip the Roman myths, as they are largely derived from Greek, with others added. This, however, was also intriguing:
Jupiter and Mercury, traveling incognito in Phrygia, begged for food and shelter, but found all doors closed to them until they received hospitality from Philemon and Baucis.
Manger, anyone?
So many of the nations around the Mediterranean and Black Sea recount similar stories, or stories with common elements, that I'm not going to copy them all here. A number of them actually agree with the facts far more than the Bible does, and the many shared elements strongly indicate that Bible itself is just a combined derivation of many of these stories.
Herschel Island Eskimo:
Noah invited all animals to save themselves aboard his ark, but the mammoths thought there would not be much of a flood and that their legs were long enough to deal with it, so they stayed outside and became extinct. The other animals believed Noah and were saved. [Frazer, pp. 328-329]
The inuitian peoples had no written language until Christian missionaries created on for them. Think maybe they knew the name "Noah" by the time they wrote it down?
Netsilik Eskimo:
A flood killed all animals and humans except for two Shaman, who survived in a boat. They copulated, and their offspring included the world's first women. [Balikci]
The giant Inugpasugssuk waded into the ocean to hunt seals. His penis stuck up out of the water so far away that he thought it was a seal putting its head up, and he struck it by mistake. He fell backwards in pain, and that raised a wave that flooded the whole district of Arviligjuaq. [Norman, p. 233]
Quite the cause for flooding :|
For a so-called global flood, it's interesting to see a myth which repopulates the world via homosexuality! Are you sure Biblical literalists wish to make a connection with this tale?
Right. Enough. You're guilty of the usual creationist/literalist tripe. You decided what the "truth" was, picked sources to support your claims...and you didn't even read your own damned sources!! Hoisted by your own petard. | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 2/12/2008 11:23:18 PM | "OH SHOUT IT ON THE MOUNTAIN...OVER THE RIVER..AND THRU THE WOODS....OH--GO SHOUT IT ON THE MOUNTAINS--OVER THE RIVER AND THRU THE WOODS........" THIS JUST IN FROM "THE PENINSULA:"
http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=local_news&month=january2008&fi
Noah’s Ark nestled on Mount Ararat
Web posted at: 1/19/2008
Source ::: The Peninsula / BY SATISH KANADY
Dogubayazit (Turkey’s Iran-Armenian Border) • For the first time in the seven decade-long history of the search for the legendary Noah’s Ark, a Turkish-Hong Kong exploration team on Tuesday came out with “material evidence”, to prove that the Ark was nestled on Mount Ararat, Turkey’s highest mountain peak bordering Iran and Armenia.
A panel of experts, comprising Turkish authorities, veteran mountaineers, archaeologists, geologists and members of Hong Kong-based Noah’s Ark Ministries International, also displayed an almost one-metre-long peice of petrified wood before the media and specially invited international experts.
The experts claimed it to be a part of a long structure they had unearthed during their February-August 2007 exploration. “It is for the first time in the history of the Ark search that an exploration team is getting a material evidence and graphic documentation. This makes it not only a the significant breakthrough in the Ark-search, but one that is supported with the most substantial evidence in recent history,” the panel said.
The revelation is expected to open up a fresh chapter in the ongoing debates in the scientific community on the search for Noah’s Ark.
Narrating the genesis of their exploration on Mount Ararat, the mount which has a direct reference in Holy Quran (Mount Judi) and Bible, the panel said the search team had made several foiled attempts before unearthing the evidence at an altitude of 4,500-metres of the estimated 5,165 metre volcanic mountain.
“The structure was discovered in the interiors of an unusual cave. The 11.5m wide and 2.6m high white wooden texture was revealed after removing thick layers of volcanic ash on the cave wall,” panel members said at a press conference.
One of the underlying issues in the search for the Ark is the proper identification of its wood fragments. A petrographic examination carried out by the Applied Geoscience Centre of the Department of Earth Sciences, University of Hong Kong, identified the object as a petrified wooden structure, the panel said.
“Some of the big holes found on the structure indicate the locations where branches used to grow on tree. In places, original holes are partly or completely replaced by individual minerals and crystalline materials that can be found in rock materials,” said Dr Ahmet Ozbek, a panel member, who is also a faculty of Geology Engineering Kahramanmara Suctcu Imam University.
Dismissing the possibilities of the structure being wood that could appear naturally around the discovery site, Professor Oktay Belli, director, Eurasian Archaeology Institute, University of Istanbul, said researches have proved that there was no vegetation on Mount Ararat ever since 2000BC, because of the asperities of Ararat’s climate.
Talking to The Peninsula, Cemalettin Demircioglu, Dogubayazit City Governor, under whose jurisdiction the mount is located, said the civic body will invite more international experts to conduct further scientific studies on Mount Ararat.
“History has more than one times corroborated the legendary evidence that the ark was nestled on Mount Ararat. We will introduce the latest findings to the world and continue the scientific study. All interested scientists and NGOs can join our missions” he said. However, he said, those who are involved in the project must ensure the findings are not used politically, religiously, or for any vested interest.
Located in the Far Eastern Turkey, Ararat is great prize for mountain collectors. Ark sighting has often been reported from this mountain. The observation of Vessel-shaped features in aerial photograph of Ararat had caused a stir in the late 1950’s. However, this is the first time an exploration team is coming out with “material evidence”.
"I always knew it was there!"--Fitman In fact, I stated, "The evidence MUST exist!!" didn't I? I guess you can all go suck on some gopher wood now. | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 2/12/2008 11:59:45 PM | Wow that's soooo scientific..
Start with the conclusion you want and work backward until you get the hypothesis that makes it fit.
Yep that's how I learned to do science back at the Christian School...
Now back to playing Bible Blaster...dang I winged him, now he's just a Unitarian.
Man this is just kind of sad, really. Next you'll be selling saint's finger bones by the gross on here... | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 2/13/2008 12:19:00 AM | Now back to playing Bible Blaster...dang I winged him, now he's just a Unitarian.
or you can go back to playing Carl Sagan Monopoly--"...extraordinary claims require..extra...proofs..."
-there's your proof--now instead of child-like rebuttals -why don't you do some serious investigation and stop taking all your knowledge and opinion from the Sunday comics?
nice dodgy attempt to downplay the most significant archeological research discovery of the Millenium. I know how hard this must be to you hardcore atheists though. | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 2/13/2008 12:20:00 AM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
Ok here's my two bits worth on this.
According to the Bible, Noah had to build this ark 300 cubits long; 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high. Converted to measurements we can understand it was 507 feet long; 85 feet high and 51 feet wide. The Bible also says that Noah was instructed to make one window. With me so far?
Now.....we have all those animals in that boat and they are being fed. Ok....what is the end result of eathing? You got it! POOP! Ok! All those animals.....all that poop and only one window for ventilation.
That ship must have stunk to high heaven! 
So the great flood of Noah was nothing more than a fairy tale.
Two Hawks pasases the Talking Stick. | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 2/13/2008 12:33:20 AM |
or you can go back to playing Carl Sagan Monopoly--"...extraordinary claims require..extra...proofs..."
-there's your proof--now instead of child-like rebuttals -why don't you do some serious investigation and stop taking all your knowledge and opinion from the Sunday comics?
Holy crap...do I have to spell it out for you???
It's not proof of ANYTHING. Other than wood. It does not follow that because someone found petrified wood somewhere that there was a boat containing an implausible miraculous amount of animals in it ordered by God, to save them from a worldwide flood anymore than it would if I found the wood in my backyard and made up a story about it...or found some mud in my yard to verify the Sarcee Indian story...or someone did something similar to verify one of the many other creation MYTHS out there.
You're starting with the conclusion and working backwards. It's not even remotely like anything scientific.
Post-hoc-fallacy. Simple as that.
You could learn a thing or two from the Simpsons I think as even Homer's level of reasoning eventually can string together a plan to find where the doughnuts are and are not. Right now you're still looking for the source of the "angel bones"...
The knowledge and opinion are basic logic. The fact that you don't get the popular culture reference is not my problem...only additionally funny for those of us that do.
nice dodgy attempt to downplay the most significant archeological research discovery of the Millenium. I know how hard this must be to you hardcore atheists though.
OMFG!!! hahahah!!! Most signif... HAAHAAHA! Thanks I needed a good guffaw before bed to shake off all that leftover afterwork tension...much obliged. But seriously...
That's why it showed up in the newspapers in Qatar a month ago and then was all over the press, Biblical Archaeological Society...all the big archaeology sites, university web sites...err...no...no I guess it wasn't...just Qatar then?
And who says I'm a hardcore athiest? Just because I don't believe what you do doesn't make me an atheist, thanks very much. | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 2/13/2008 5:39:13 AM | Jesus spoke of a literal Noah's Flood, Adam and Eve, Jonah, and yes--six days of creation. If these are false characters or false events-- then the whole of the Bible can NOT be acceptable in any way, shape, or form
Then I guess it isn't acceptable in any way shape or form. Sorry. Fundamentalism is a straw man of it's own design.
Hey I find some petrified wood in my back yard. It must be from the Ark!
It's always amusing how there are new ark found reports every few years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searches_for_Noah's_Ark#Hoaxes | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 2/13/2008 8:22:08 AM | nice dodgy attempt to downplay the most significant archeological research discovery of the Millenium. I know how hard this must be to you hardcore atheists though.
Hey Fitman,
Maybe you should lay off the biceps for for a while and exercise your LOGIC MUSCLE, yours seems a bit whithered and atrophied. Let me get this right.... Someone looking specifically for the arc find a piece of petrified wood and claims it's from the exact 4,000 year old boat?
Here's a couple of problems:
1. Wood takes WAY more than 4,000 years to "petrify".
2. A 550 foot WOODEN boat would collapse under it's own weight.
3. The Middle East has NEVER been known the place of Forests... where do you suggest Noah found the millions of board feet of lumber for this MASSIVE boat?
4. 8 people could not feed thousands of animals (and muck out their stalls).
5. Carnivorous animals such as lions will get sick and die if they don't eat lots of MEAT.
6. One happy incestuous family CANNOT repopulate the world on two accounts:
a-- You can't reproduce Billions of people in 4,000 years from a single source
b-- There's more than a little problem with IN BREEDING after one generation... The 'family' would be freakish after 2 generations and dead by the 5th... let alone 1,000 generations. USE SOME LOGIC HERE for godsake.
Don't just start screaming about "hardcore" atheists because people are underwhelmed by your "archaeological discovery of the Millennium (even for a "millennium" that is only 8 years old).
James, Port Orchard, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 2/15/2008 6:06:12 AM | Lets consider that the people who wrote this, wrote it in a manner that was not politically correct for us in the English Language. A boat properly constructed, surrounded inside and out with Bitumen, a type of tar will float. One window would make it air tight. It could go under the water and back up. But I think we missed something here. The story was written After the flood. It wiped out a civilization of that particular area, because that was "their" know world. Who here knows about what type of civilization was wiped out, how advance they were, and what methods did they use in there construction. None of us. So we look at this story as some kind of fable.
Without the idea of trying to figure out how much the animals ate or dumped out. Or how he fed them period, I do not think is the issue. What this represents to me that in this world at time major catastrophes do occur. I fail to see that the whole world is wiped out, but something in the post by Frogo put it clear. There are areas that do get an abnormal amount of destruction. As goes, there are many explanations for this flood on the pacific rim an the Middle East sub continent.
Question. Could a polar melt down in the Antarctic, allow a Ice Cap to separate and flow off the continent and into the Ocean and cause a massive tidal wave.
Or could the impact of a comet or asteroid cause the earth to break open and the evaporation of the ocean cause the rain, and the comet actually tilted the earths axis. Causing massive tidal waves around the world. Pockets of civilized life could survive is in higher altitudes such a Michu Piccu, or in areas such as Tibet, mountains areas and plateaus that tribes of people would have survived. Say a comet hit where Ice Land is now. How long ago did this happen.
A tidal wave in that type of proportion could destroy all evidence of civilization, because the wave could be so powerful that buildings would crumble under its impact. Which gives reason to believe why they build structures of stone that would be almost impossible to destroy. The Pyramids.
Speculation:
At this moment the 12 polar caps of the Sun are moving, revolving, causing the largest solar flares ever recorded. The sun is now in a state of flux, but is expected to unleash a solar flare within the next yr (according to some scientist) that would really create havoc for the electro magnetic field and effect communications world wide due to satelite transmissions.
Now I am just wondering that if this is true, could it effect our magnetic field (which is apparently weaker at this time) that global warming is actually happening because of radiation from the sun, and a weaker Magnetic Field. Could this be the reason for the Ice caps melting, it does not necessarily need heat but microwaves. And the idea of 2012 that the Mayans understood this as a cycle and that the Sun would alter its polar caps. Thus effecting us. And could give reason for the Flood recorded by the Ancients. This could be a cycle. What ever happened in those days was so important that they wrote about it so that the future people would understand "Something" about the past. If they wrote it down, then they are civilized.
Also take into consideration that after the flood, the term "Fear the Lord" was intorduced to the masses that survived in that particular area.
Take into consideration that most of our religious and mystical beliefs originated from this particular area. The Middle East, Tibet, and the Indian sub continent.
Also that after the flood, in a time in the future that a guy named Nimrod tried to unite the tribes of survivors (generations later) into one society, with the building of the tower of Babel for observation of the cosmos (astronomy and Astrology, Babylon). Thus he challenged G-d. And with the changing of the language, which could represent the people did not hold to Nimrods Idea, thus the idea changed the language changed. The purpose changed, the people did not want Nimrod as a king, so they left to all corners of the world.
The Flood seems to connect with Nimrod and the Tower of Babel as societies tried to emerge after a great calamity. Just food for thought, I think its useless to argue the semantics of the story or try to make sense of its political correctness which many of us seem to need being part of a scientific supermarket mentality. | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/18/2008 11:40:50 PM | I won't debate whether Noah's ark was real or not but I'll take a stab at the probabilities Settler listed......he used #'s so I will use letters for rebuttles....
Here's a couple of problems:
1. Wood takes WAY more than 4,000 years to "petrify".
a..... They have just uncovered a dinosaur that is complete with fossilized skin. One of a few to be found. Meaning? Under the right conditions, anything can be "near instantly mummifyed" for a fossilization process. Also check out Pompae.
2. A 550 foot WOODEN boat would collapse under it's own weight.
b.....An actual 550 foot WOODEN boat has never been built by the arc's specifications to see if it would or wouldn't collapse. Until the Titantic was built (many scientists/engineers using smaller models said it would collapse upon itself) and then floating (many of the same claimed it would sink from it's weight) many showed/believed it would be a failure as the scientists/engineers of our day show the same thing would happen by their small models/computer generated models of the arc.
3. The Middle East has NEVER been known the place of Forests... where do you suggest Noah found the millions of board feet of lumber for this MASSIVE boat?
c.....It was never believed the artic was a tropical place at one time. Just because evidence has not been found yet of a forrested area that does not mean one did not exist.
4. 8 people could not feed thousands of animals (and muck out their stalls).
5. Carnivorous animals such as lions will get sick and die if they don't eat lots of MEAT.
d.....the explanation for the above two (like the possibility of the arc having existed) has to come from the Bible also with some reasoning. Read any where before Genesis chapter 8 and you won't read anything of animals fearing humans or humans eating non-human creatures for food. But if you read Genesis 9:2 you will read where for the first time "recorded" in the Bible, God puts a fear of humans into all non-human creatures be they in the air, on the ground or in the sea. That would insinuate that humans and non-human creatures lived with each other without fear prior to that moment. That would also insinuate that humans were not eating non-human living creatures before then. That would insinuate that up to that revalation.....all living creatures...human and non-human had been herbavores.
What that could "possibly" mean according to the story is that there were no meat eaters aboard the arc. All were herbavores or as we call them...vegatarians. So feeding would not have been that much of a problem if there was sufficient storage for the things they ate that was part of their diet that came from the fields and trees.
6. One happy incestuous family CANNOT repopulate the world on two accounts:
a-- You can't reproduce Billions of people in 4,000 years from a single source
e.....Not true as we have no other comparison to prove what you say is true.
b-- There's more than a little problem with IN BREEDING after one generation... The 'family' would be freakish after 2 generations and dead by the 5th... let alone 1,000 generations. USE SOME LOGIC HERE for godsake.
f.....In Genesis there are three verses that make reference to the practice of polygamy and that it was well accepted in the begining and no ill-reference is made against it. It is also a theory that Noah had more then one wife. That he had a wife for each of his sons that went with him aboard the arc. "IF" that was true, all of the children by the four couples aboard the arc would have been "half-first cousins" which would not have produced freakish generations. The blood would have been thinned with each new generation.
To use your words...."USE SOME LOGIC HERE!!"  | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/19/2008 12:04:52 AM |
1. Wood takes WAY more than 4,000 years to "petrify".
a..... They have just uncovered a dinosaur that is complete with fossilized skin. One of a few to be found. Meaning? Under the right conditions, anything can be "near instantly mummifyed" for a fossilization process. Also check out Pompae.
Well obviously if in the thousands of fossils out there you find one with intact skin, obviously a huge ship made out of a completely different substance could have been preserved in exactly the same manner.
http://skepdic.com/adhoc.html
Ad hoc hypothesis.
2. A 550 foot WOODEN boat would collapse under it's own weight.
b.....An actual 550 foot WOODEN boat has never been built by the arc's specifications to see if it would or wouldn't collapse. Until the Titantic was built (many scientists/engineers using smaller models said it would collapse upon itself) and then floating (many of the same claimed it would sink from it's weight) many showed/believed it would be a failure as the scientists/engineers of our day show the same thing would happen by their small models/computer generated models of the arc.
How amusing, you don't actually prove his point false here, you're just saying "nuh-uh" how about you build the boat, or you show the error in the computer models?
Argument from ignorance. Ad hoc hypothesis.
It was never believed the artic was a tropical place at one time. Just because evidence has not been found yet of a forrested area that does not mean one did not exist.
Yes it was troppical, 240 MILLION YEARS AGO. You know? Before the universe was ever made according to biblical literalists who believe the earth was only 6 thousand years old and Noah actually did the ship thing?
Once again, prepared to provide us with any evidence of this being true of the middle east at the time? or are you just expecting to take your ad hoc hypothesis seriously? It's your job to show US how it's possible.
Argument from ignorance. Ad hoc hypothesis.
the explanation for the above two (like the possibility of the arc having existed) has to come from the Bible also with some reasoning. Read any where before Genesis chapter 8 and you won't read anything of animals fearing humans or humans eating non-human creatures for food. But if you read Genesis 9:2 you will read where for the first time "recorded" in the Bible, God puts a fear of humans into all non-human creatures be they in the air, on the ground or in the sea. That would insinuate that humans and non-human creatures lived with each other without fear prior to that moment. That would also insinuate that humans were not eating non-human living creatures before then. That would insinuate that up to that revalation.....all living creatures...human and non-human had been herbavores.
What that could "possibly" mean according to the story is that there were no meat eaters aboard the arc. All were herbavores or as we call them...vegatarians. So feeding would not have been that much of a problem if there was sufficient storage for the things they ate that was part of their diet that came from the fields and trees.
If all meat eaters were vegetarians it wouldn't change the reality that there wouldn't be enough storage space for food. It's also another complete ad hoc hypothesis.
Not true as we have no other comparison to prove what you say is true
Well except for population growth in primitive cultures, and you know... science and mathematics.
In Genesis there are three verses that make reference to the practice of polygamy and that it was well accepted in the begining and no ill-reference is made against it. It is also a theory that Noah had more then one wife. That he had a wife for each of his sons that went with him aboard the arc. "IF" that was true, all of the children by the four couples aboard the arc would have been "half-first cousins" which would not have produced freakish generations. The blood would have been thinned with each new generation.
4 regular couples don't contain a large enough genetic variation to make a healthy organism never mind 4 regular couples that each have a member who is related to good old dad.
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2001-06/992282417.Ge.r.html | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/19/2008 12:13:50 PM | "How amusing, you don't actually prove his point false here, you're just saying "nuh-uh"
You should have considered my initial statement Charles which was.... "I won't debate whether Noah's ark was real or not".... before making a statement that I couldn't prove an "un-proveable" point false or true. You did read where I stated..." but I'll take a stab at the probabilities" meaning as Settler was making points of how the ark could not of happened I made points that it could have. But that neither of us were proving anything.
"Well obviously if in the thousands of fossils out there you find one with intact skin, obviously a huge ship made out of a completely different substance could have been preserved in exactly the same manner."
Fossilization has been shown to be able to happen to anything with nearly any process from tar pits to bogs to ice and snow to dirt to tree sap. So it is a possibility that a 500 foot ship could be encased in a sudden snow/ice storm/avalance of snow on the side of a mountain.
"How amusing, you don't actually prove his point false here, you're just saying "nuh-uh" how about you build the boat, or you show the error in the computer models?"
This has already been done actually. PBS had a few different specials of engineers showing the computer generated models and actual minature built models of wood and even put them in huge tanks of water to replicate the ocean with huge waves crashing on top of the model. Their miniture models survived all physical experiments.
"Yes it was troppical, 240 MILLION YEARS AGO. You know? Before the universe was ever made according to biblical literalists who believe the earth was only 6 thousand years old and Noah actually did the ship thing?
Once again, prepared to provide us with any evidence of this being true of the middle east at the time? or are you just expecting to take your ad hoc hypothesis seriously? It's your job to show US how it's possible."
Fossilized trees have been found from Africa to Turkey to Europe to Russia to Greenland to America, etc. PS...the Artic was tropical just 55 million years ago....not just 240 million years ago.
"If all meat eaters were vegetarians it wouldn't change the reality that there wouldn't be enough storage space for food. It's also another complete ad hoc hypothesis."
Actually it was showed in the minature boat models that there "could have been" between floors, between cages, enough storage space in different places on this boat to support all that were on it for food.
a-- You can't reproduce Billions of people in 4,000 years from a single source
Not true as we have no other comparison to prove what you say is true
Your response
"Well except for population growth in primitive cultures, and you know... science and mathematics."
I agree Charles as science and mathmatics have shown in just 9,000 years we have went from a world population (from a single source according to darwin ) at 8,000 bc of 5,000,000 to our present day population of 6,000,000,000 so it as actually very possible! Good point Charles!!! Thanks! 
Once again Charles your faith in science has proved things very possible!!! Read the below....your response....
"4 regular couples don't contain a large enough genetic variation to make a healthy organism never mind 4 regular couples that each have a member who is related to good old dad."
Now read from article.....
news.bbc.co.uk — The most recent ancestor of all males living today was a man who lived in Africa around 59,000 years ago, according to an international team of researchers.....
The study confirms the Out of Africa hypothesis
The most recent ancestor of all males living today was a man who lived in Africa around 59,000 years ago, according to an international team of researchers.
The scientists from eight countries have drawn up a genetic family tree of mankind by studying variations in the Y chromosome of more than a thousand men from different communities around the world. The Y chromosome is one of the two sex chromosomes (X and Y) which only men carry (women carry two X chromosomes).
The new research confirms the Out of Africa theory that modern humans originated in Africa before slowly spreading across the world.
Once again science shows anything is possible...even the stories of the Bible!  | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/19/2008 4:35:50 PM | To go back and address the original post....
"The documentary also showed that it would've been impossible to construct such a large vessel out of wood, saying the wood would become soft in the water,deforming the boat and taking it down."
I am guessing that in this documentary it must of shown how a great percentage of all the wooden ships that were made say between 500 bc to 1500 ad were actually not floatable for a very long because regardless of the size of a wooden sailing vessel be it a two man row boat or a galleon, etc.,"...the wood would become soft in the water, deforming the boat and taking it down." I wondered if they showed proof of that statement. To what I have read of the history of ship building...most of the ships/boats that were well built, lasted dozens of years for service whether they were used in freash water and or salt water.
"It also stated that carrying two of every living species was quite impossible."
That statement is trully (for us) un-arguable. There is just no way to figure out exactly how many animals could have been in existance at the time of the story of the ark. It can be assumed with modern day evidence of cross-breeding, producing new third species from two other species, that in the story of Noah and the ark, their could of been a lot less species on the earth then, than there are now. That can lend a "small" possibility to that story that a boat then could have been built large enough to contain all that were living at that time.
As I stated in a prior post, in the story of the Ark and Noah their are some other verses that actually give a 'plausible' explanation for things we have always assumed. Like we assumed of the animals there were carnivors and herbavors. We assume not all of the animals came willingly to the boat so they had to be captured in cages and brought to it. So we assume the carnivors had to be fed meat and the herbavors fed herbs of the field and trees. We assumed Noah and family ate both. We assumed Noah had a single wife who birthed all their children, well at least those that went on the arc. We know each son had a wife like Noah making five couples.
Now for the BUT.......
Prior to Noah and his family being let off the boat in the Bible, you will not hear of a single verse that tells of the humans from Adam to Noah being meat eaters. There are no verses that show animals, fish, birds had any fear of each other or having fear of humans from Adam to Noah. There are no verses that speak of animals or birds or fish eating each other. You will also find three verses in Genesis that state that polygamy was apparently accepted and thriving as an accepted way of life.
AFTER Noah departed the arc with family you will then read that Noah was instructed that they could eat ANYTHING they wanted BESIDES the herbs of the fields and trees. The menu now contained animals dead and bled. At this time God also told Noah that everything would NOW have a fear of each other.
Anyway....take a read for yourself and make comment. | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/19/2008 4:55:00 PM | And here we have the Ark being descoverd in 1960 with announcements in Time Magazine. A supposed National Park set up so tourists can come see it. It's on teh web so therefore it must be true. (please note I am being sarcastic).
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm
And here is one in June 2006 by a team from Texas
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2133311&page=1
Then we have another article which I will only quote part of, you can read the rest if you want.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50977
The man most responsible for promoting this location as the ark's actual resting place from the Bible was Ron Wyatt, who died of cancer in 1999 after years of searching for biblical antiquities, also claiming to have found the remains of Pharaoh's chariots that chased Moses through the Red Sea, and the "true" location of Mount Sinai in Arabia.
In 2004, Wyatt's widow, Mary Nell Wyatt Lee, published a history of the discovery in a book titled, "The Boat-Shaped Object on Doomsday Mountain."
She writes that on Dec. 12, 1987, "it was the official decision of members of [Turkey's] Ministry of Foreign Affairs, of Internal Affairs, and researchers from Ataturk University, among others, that the boat-shaped formation did indeed contain the
remains of Noah's Ark!"
It's obvious that people truly wish to find what they believe to be true. Yet many have been wrong in their claims. Lets not jump the gun and believe yet another article claiming this time it's really true. | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/19/2008 5:09:09 PM |
Hey Fitman,
Maybe you should lay off the biceps for for a while and exercise your LOGIC MUSCLE, yours seems a bit whithered and atrophied. Let me get this right.... Someone looking specifically for the arc find a piece of petrified wood and claims it's from the exact 4,000 year old boat?
Here's a couple of problems:
1. Wood takes WAY more than 4,000 years to "petrify".
2. A 550 foot WOODEN boat would collapse under it's own weight.
3. The Middle East has NEVER been known the place of Forests... where do you suggest Noah found the millions of board feet of lumber for this MASSIVE boat?
4. 8 people could not feed thousands of animals (and muck out their stalls).
5. Carnivorous animals such as lions will get sick and die if they don't eat lots of MEAT.
6. One happy incestuous family CANNOT repopulate the world on two accounts:
a-- You can't reproduce Billions of people in 4,000 years from a single source
b-- There's more than a little problem with IN BREEDING after one generation... The 'family' would be freakish after 2 generations and dead by the 5th... let alone 1,000 generations. USE SOME LOGIC HERE for godsake.
Don't just start screaming about "hardcore" atheists because people are underwhelmed by your "archaeological discovery of the Millennium (even for a "millennium" that is only 8 years old).
James, Port Orchard, Washington, USA, Earth
hey seattlerain-- perhaps you have water on the brain? its a good thing you tell us what planet you're from cuz I woulda thought you're talkin from Ur-anus. I have better things to do than sit and argue with Jesus Mythologists the likes of you and others. But since you took the time to talk from you ass--the least I can do is reply:
1) WRONG on the first one!! There are many modern examples showing the quick petrification of wood found in a natural environment as well as artificial processes simulating such a thing!!
Rapid natural petrification
The chemical components used to artificially petrify wood can be found in natural settings around volcanoes and within sedimentary strata. Is it possible then that natural petrification can occur rapidly by these processes? Indeed! Sigleo4 reported silica deposition rates into blocks of wood in alkaline springs at Yellowstone National Park (USA) of between 0.1 and 4.0 mm/yr.
From Australia come some startling reports. Writing in The Australian Lapidary Magazine, Pigott5 recounts his experiences in southwestern Queensland:
'. . . from Mrs McMurray [of Blackall], I heard a story that rocked me and seemed to explode many ideas about the age of petrified wood. Mrs McMurray has a piece of wood turned to stone which has clear axe marks on it. She says the tree this piece came from grew on a farm her father had at Euthella, out of Roma, and was chopped down by him about 70 years ago. It was partly buried until it was dug up again, petrified. Mac McMurray capped this story by saying a townsman had a piece of petrified fence post with the drilled holes for wire with a piece of the wire attached.
'Petrified wood thousands of years old? I wonder is it so?'
Several months later Pearce6 added further to these amazing stories of woods rapidly petrified in the ground of 'outback' Queensland:
'. . . Piggott writes of petrified wood showing axe marks and also of a petrified fence post.
'This sort of thing is, of course, quite common. The Hughenden district, N. Q. [North Queensland], has . . . Parkensonia trees washed over near a station [ranch] homestead and covered with silt by a flood in 1918 [which] had the silt washed off by a flood in 1950. Portions of the trunk had turned to stone of an attractive colour. However, much of the trunks and all the limbs had totally disappeared.
'On Zara Station [Ranch], 30 miles [about 48 kilometres] from Hughenden, I was renewing a fence. Where it was dipped into a hollow the bottom of the old posts had gone through black soil into shale. The Gidgee wood was still perfect in the black soil. It then cut off as straight as if sawn, and the few inches of post in the shale was pure stone. Every axe mark was perfect and the colour still the same as the day the post was cut . . . .
'I understand that down in the sandhill country below Boulia [south-western Queensland], where fences are often completely covered by shifting sand, it's a common thing for the sand to shift off after a number of years, leaving stone posts standing erect.'
From the other side of the world comes a report of the chapel of Santa Maria of Health (Santa Maria de Salute), built in 1630 in Venice, Italy, to celebrate the end of The Plague. Because Venice is built on watersaturated clay and sand, the chapel was constructed on 180,000 wooden pilings to reinforce the foundations. Even though the chapel is a massive stone block structure, it has remained firm since its construction. How have the wooden pilings lasted over 360 years? They have petrified! The chapel now rests on 'stone' pilings!7
Experimental verification
Of course, none of these reports should come as a surprise, since the processes of petrification of wood have been known for years, plus the fact that the process can occur, and has occurred, rapidly. For example Scurfield and Segnit8 had reported that the petrification of wood can be considered to take place in five stages:
1. Entry of silica in solution or as a colloid into the wood.
2. Penetration of silica into the cell walls of the wood's structure.
3. Progressive dissolving of the cell walls which are at the same time replaced by silica so that the wood's dimensional stability is maintained.
4. Silica deposition within the voids within the cellular wall framework structure.
5. Final hardening (lithification) by Drying out.
Furthermore Oehler9 had previously shown that the silica minerals quartz and chalcedony critically important in the petrification of wood, can be made, rapidly in the laboratory from silica gel. At 300°C (572°F) and 3 kilobars (about 3,000 atmospheres) pressure only 25 hours was required to crystallize quartz, whereas at only 165°C (329°F) and 3 kilobars pressure the same degree of crystallization occurred in 170 hours (about seven days).
Similarly, Drum10 had partially silicified small branches by placing them in concentrated solutions of sodium metasilicate for up to 24 hours, while Leo and Barghoorn11 had immersed fresh wood alternately in water and saturated ethyl silicate solutions until the open spaces in the wood were filled with mineral material, all within several months to a year. Likewise, as early as 1950 Merrill and Spencer12 had shown that the sorption of silica by wood fibres from solutions of sodium metasilicate, sodium silicate and activated silica sols (a homogeneous suspension in water) at only 25°C (77°F) was as much as 12.5 moles of silica per gram within 24 hours--the equivalent of partial silicification/petrification. As Sigleo concluded,
'These observations indicate that silica nucleation and deposition can occur directly and rapidly on exposed cellulose [wood] surfaces.'13
Conclusions
The evidence, both from scientists' laboratories and God's natural laboratory, shows that under the right chemical conditions wood can be rapidly petrified by silicification, even at normal temperatures and pressures. The process of petrification of wood is now so well known and understood that scientists can rapidly make petrified wood in their laboratories at will.
Unfortunately, most people still think, and are led to believe, that fossilized wood buried in rock strata must have taken thousands, if not millions, of years to petrify. Clearly, such thinking is erroneous, since it has been repeatedly demonstrated that petrification of wood can, and does, occur rapidly. Thus the timeframe for the formation of the petrified wood within the geological record is totally compatible with the biblical time-scale of a recent creation and a subsequent devastating global Flood.
1. Phil McCafferty, 'Instant petrified wood?', Popular Science, October 1992, pp. 56-57.
2. Hamilton Hicks, 'Mineralized sodium silicate solutions for artificial petrification of wood', United States Patent Number 4,612,050, September 16,1986, pp. 1-3. As cited by: Steven Austin, CatastroRef--'Catastrophe Reference Database: Catastrophes in Earth History, Geologic Evidence, Speculation and Theory', Institute for Creation Research, San Diego. Entry no. 267.
3. Hicks, Ref 2.
4. A.C. Sigleo, 'Organic geochemistry of silicified wood, Petrified Forest National Park, Arizona', Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta, Vol. 42, 1978, pp. 1397-1405.
5. Roy Piggott, The Australian Lapidary Magazine, January 1970, p. 9.
6. R.C. Pearce, 'Petnfied wood', The Australian Lapidary Magazine, June 1970, p. 33.
7. Segment on 'Burke's Backyard', Channel 9 TV, Sydney, June 1995.
8. G. Scurfield and E.R. Segnit, 'Petnfication of wood by silica minerals', Sedimentary Geology, Vol. 39, 1984, pp. 149- 167.
9. John H. Oehler, 'Hydrothermal crystallization of silica gel', Geological Society of America Bulletin, Vol. 87, August 1976, pp. 1143-1152.
10. R.W Drum, 'Silicification of Betula woody tissue in vitro', Science, Vol. 161, 1968, pp 175-176.
11. R.E Leo, and E.S. Barghoorn, 'Silicification of wood', Harvard University Botanical Museum Leaflets, No. 25, 1976, pp. 1-47.
12. R.C. Mernll and R.W. Spencer, 'Sorption of sodium silicates and silicate sols by cellulose fibers', Industrial Engineering Chemistry, Vol. 42, 1950, pp. 744-747.
13. Sigleo, Ref 4, p. 1404.
2) really now...have you studied the model or history for such vessels? or are you once again just writing to justify your contempt for Bible truths? Noah's ark was indeed a huge vessel. . Not until the late 1800s was a ship built that exceeded the capacity of Noah’s Ark.
The dimensions of the Ark are convincing for two reasons: the proportions are like that of a modern cargo ship, and it is about as large as a wooden ship can be built. The cubit gives us a good indication of size.1 With the cubit’s measurement, we know that the Ark must have been at least 450 feet (137 m) long, 75 feet (23 m) wide, and 45 feet (14 m) high. In the Western world, wooden sailing ships never got much longer than about 330 feet (100 m), yet the ancient Greeks built vessels at least this size 2,000 years earlier. China built huge wooden ships in the 1400s that may have been as large as the Ark. The biblical Ark is one of the largest wooden ships of all time—a mid-sized cargo ship by today’s standards.
The description of the Ark is very brief—Genesis 6:14–16. Those three verses contain critical information including overall dimensions, but Noah was almost certainly given more detail than this. Other divinely specified constructions in the Bible are meticulously detailed, like the descriptions of Moses’ Tabernacle or the temple in Ezekiel’s vision.
The Bible does not say the Ark was a rectangular box. In fact, Scripture gives no clue about the shape of Noah’s Ark other than the proportions—length, width, and depth. Ships have long been described like this without ever implying a block-shaped hull.
Moses used the obscure term tebah, a word that is only used again for the basket that carried baby Moses (Exodus 2:3). One was a huge wooden ship and the other a tiny wicker basket. Both float, both rescue life, and both are covered. But the similarity ends there. We can be quite sure that the baby basket did not have the same proportions as the Ark, and Egyptian baskets of the time were typically rounded. Perhaps tebah means “lifeboat.”
For many years biblical creationists have simply depicted the Ark as a rectangular box. This shape helped illustrate its size while avoiding the distractions of hull curvature. It also made it easy to compare volume. By using a short cubit and the maximum number of animal “kinds,” creationists, as we’ve seen, have demonstrated how easily the Ark could fit the payload.7 At the time, space was the main issue; other factors were secondary.
However, the next phase of research investigated sea-keeping (behavior and comfort at sea), hull strength, and stability. This began with a Korean study performed at the world-class ship research center (KRISO) in 1992.8 The team of nine KRISO researchers was led by Dr. Hong, who is now director-general of the research center.
The study confirmed that the Ark could handle waves as high as 98 feet (30 m), and that the proportions of the biblical Ark are near optimal—an interesting admission from Dr. Hong, who believes evolutionary ideas, openly claiming “life came from the sea.”9 The study combined analysis, model wave testing, and ship standards, yet the concept was simple: compare the biblical Ark with 12 other vessels of the same volume but modified in length, width, or depth. Three qualities were measured—stability, hull strength, and comfort.
Ship Qualities Measured in the 1992 Korean Study
( Hong, et al., Safety Investigation of Noah’s Ark in a seaway, TJ 8(1):26–36, April 1994.)
While Noah’s Ark was an average performer in each quality, it was among the best designs overall. In other words, the proportions show a careful design balance that is easily lost when proportions are modified the wrong way. It is no surprise that modern ships have similar proportions—those proportions work.
Interesting to note is the fact that this study makes nonsense of the claim that Genesis was written only a few centuries before Christ and was based on flood legends such as the Epic of Gilgamesh. The Babylonian ark is a cube shape, something so far from reality that even the shortest hull in the Korean study was not even close. But we would expect mistakes from other flood accounts, like that of Gilgamesh, as the account of Noah would have been distorted as it was passed down through different cultures.
Yet one mystery remained. The Korean study did not hide the fact that some shorter hulls slightly outperformed the biblical Noah’s Ark. Further work by Tim Lovett, one author of this chapter, and two naval architects, Jim King and Dr. Allen Magnuson, focused attention on the issue of broaching— being turned sideways by the waves.
How do we know what the waves were like? If there were no waves at all, stability, comfort, or strength would be unimportant, and the proportions would not matter. A shorter hull would then be a more efficient volume, taking less wood and less work. However, we can take clues from the proportions of the Ark itself. The Korean study had assumed waves came from every direction, giving shorter hulls an advantage. But real ocean waves usually have a dominant direction due to the wind, favoring a short, wide hull even more.
Another type of wave may also have affected the Ark during the Flood—tsunamis. Earthquakes can create tsunamis that devastate coastlines. However, when a tsunami travels in deep water it is imperceptible to a ship. During the Flood, the water would have been very deep—there is enough water in today’s oceans to cover the earth to a depth of about 1.7 miles (2.7 km). The Bible states that the Ark rose “high above the earth” (Genesis 7:17). Launched from high ground by the rising floodwaters, the Ark would have avoided the initial devastation of coastlines and low-lying areas, and remained safe from tsunamis throughout the voyage.
After several months at sea, God sent a wind (Genesis 8:1), which could have produced very large waves since these waves can be produced by a strong, steady wind. Open-water testing confirms that any drifting vessel will naturally turn side-on to the waves (broach). With waves approaching the side of the vessel (beam sea), a long vessel like the Ark would be trapped in an uncomfortable situation; in heavy weather it could become dangerous. This could be overcome, however, by the vessel catching the wind (Genesis 8:1) at the bow and catching the water at the stern—aligning itself like a wind vane. These features appear to have inspired a number of ancient ship designs. Once the Ark points into the waves, the long, ship-like proportions create a more comfortable and controlled voyage. Traveling slowly with the wind, it had no need for speed, but the Bible does say the Ark moved about on the surface of the waters (Genesis 7:18).
Compared to a ship-like bow and stern, blunt ends are not as strong, have edges that are vulnerable to damage during launch and beaching, and give a rougher ride. Since the Bible gives proportions like that of a true ship, it makes sense that it should look and act ship-like. The below design is an attempt to flesh out the biblical outline using real-life experiments and archeological evidence of ancient ships.
While Scripture does not point out a wind-catching feature at the bow, the abbreviated account we are given in Genesis makes no mention of drinking water, the number of animals, or the way they got out of the Ark either.
Nothing in this newly depicted Ark contradicts Scripture; in fact, it shows how accurate Scripture is!
1. Something to catch the wind
Wind-driven waves would cause a drifting vessel to turn dangerously side-on to the weather. However, such waves could be safely navigated by making the Ark steer itself with a wind-catching obstruction on the bow. To be effective, this obstruction must be large enough to overcome the turning effect of the waves. While many designs could work, the possibility reflects the high stems which were a hallmark of ancient ships.
3) I'll leave this for my fellow scribes to decipher.......montanan should do quite nicely.
4,5)
According to Scripture, Noah’s Ark was a safe haven for representatives of all the kinds of air-breathing land animals that God created. While it is possible that God made miraculous provisions for the daily care of these animals, it is not necessary—or required by Scripture—to appeal to miracles. Exploring natural solutions for day-to-day operations does not discount God’s role: the biblical account hints at plenty of miracles as written, such as God bringing the animals to the Ark (Genesis 6:20; 7:9, 15). It turns out that a study of existing, low-tech animal care methods answers trivial objections to the Ark. In fact, many solutions to seemingly insurmountable problems are rather straightforward.
How Did Noah Fit All the Animals on the Ark?
According to the Bible, the Ark had three decks (floors). It is not difficult to show that there was plenty of room for 16,000 animals (the maximum number of animals on the Ark, if the most liberal approach to counting animals is applied), assuming they required approximately the same floor space as animals in typical farm enclosures and laboratories. The vast majority of the creatures (birds, reptiles, and mammals) were small (the largest only a few hundred pounds of body weight). What’s more, many could have been housed in groups, which would have further reduced the required space.
It is still necessary to take account of the floor spaces required by large animals, such as elephants and rhinos. But even these, collectively, do not require a large area because it is most likely that these animals were young, but not newborns. Even the largest dinosaurs were relatively small when only a few years old.
What Did the Dinosaurs Eat?
Dinosaurs could have eaten basically the same foods as the other animals. The large sauropods could have eaten compressed hay, other dried plant material, seeds and grains, and the like. Carnivorous dinosaurs—if any were meat-eaters before the Flood—could have eaten dried meat, reconstituted dried meat, or slaughtered animals. Giant tortoises would have been ideal to use as food in this regard. They were large and needed little food to be maintained themselves. There are also exotic sources of meat, such as fish that wrap themselves in dry cocoons.
How Were the Animals Cared For?
We must distinguish between the long-term care required for animals kept in zoos and the temporary, emergency care required on the Ark. The animals’ comfort and healthy appearance were not essential for emergency survival during one stressful year, where survival was the primary goal.
Proposed manure removing plan for the Ark
Animal enclosures with sloped, self-cleaning floors, emptying into a manure gutter or pit.
Studies of nonmechanized animal care indicate that eight people could have fed and watered 16,000 creatures. The key is to avoid unnecessary walking around. As the old adage says, “Don’t work harder, work smarter.”
Therefore, Noah probably stored the food and water near each animal. Even better, drinking water could have been piped into troughs, just as the Chinese have used bamboo pipes for this purpose for thousands of years. The use of some sort of self-feeders, as is commonly done for birds, would have been relatively easy and probably essential. Animals that required special care or diets were uncommon and should not have needed an inordinate amount of time from the handlers. Even animals with the most specialized diets in nature could have been switched to readily sustainable substitute diets. Of course, this assumes that animals with specialized diets today were likewise specialized at the time of the Flood.
6-a,b) already covered that. refer to message #156
BONUS: "..these are the things you find--when you think OUTSIDE the 'box.' "
Scientific Study Endorses Seaworthiness of Ark
Ark balance
The proportions of the Ark were found to carefully balance the conflicting demands of stability, comfort, and strength.
Noah’s Ark was the focus of a major 1993 scientific study headed by Dr. Seon Hong at the world-class ship research center KRISO, based in Daejeon, South Korea. Dr. Hong’s team compared twelve hulls of different proportions to discover which design was most practical. No hull shape was found to significantly outperform the 4,300-year-old biblical design. In fact, the Ark’s careful balance is easily lost if the proportions are modified, rendering the vessel either unstable, prone to fracture, or dangerously uncomfortable.
The research team found that the proportions of Noah’s Ark carefully balanced the conflicting demands of stability (resistance to capsizing), comfort (“seakeeping”), and strength. In fact, the Ark has the same proportions as a modern cargo ship.
The study also confirmed that the Ark could handle waves as high as 100 ft (30 m). Dr. Hong is now director general of the facility and claims “life came from the sea,” obviously not the words of a creationist on a mission to promote the worldwide Flood. Endorsing the seaworthiness of Noah’s Ark obviously did not damage Dr. Hong’s credibility.
Source: worldwideflood.com/ark/hull_form/hull_optimization.htm
Dr. Seon Won HongDr. Seon Won Hong was principal research scientist when he headed up the Noah’s Ark investigation. In May 2005 Dr. Hong was appointed director general of MOERI (formerly KRISO). Dr. Hong earned a B.S. degree in naval architecture from Seoul National University and a Ph.D. degree in applied mechanics from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.
All this makes nonsense of the claim that Genesis was written only a few centuries before Christ, as a mere retelling of earlier Babylonian flood legends such as the Epic of Gilgamesh. The Epic of Gilgamesh story describes a cube-shaped ark, which would have given a dangerously rough ride. This is neither accurate nor scientific. Noah’s Ark is the original, while the Gilgamesh Epic is a later distortion.
It seems many of you are still 'mything the boat' so to speak.
This in itself, was prophesied by Peter in:
2Peter 3:5-7- "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overthrown with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/19/2008 6:13:20 PM |
Prior to Noah and his family being let off the boat in the Bible, you will not hear of a single verse that tells of the humans from Adam to Noah being meat eaters. There are no verses that show animals, fish, birds had any fear of each other or having fear of humans from Adam to Noah. There are no verses that speak of animals or birds or fish eating each other.
In order to believe this,you would have to accept the creation story of Genesis to be literally true.People who are skeptical of the Bible,such as myself,will say there is no fossil record existing of an all vegan biosphere,I'm not even sure that's biologically feasable,barring of course the assumption of a "miracle" or "something God did".Science doesn't make such assumptions.You can assume the current biosphere,existing of herbivores and carnivores,each serving it's purpose in the chain was always here because that's what the current evidence points to.Can any creationist look at the current fossilized evidence,or any other scientific study such as geological and show me anything that would even remotely insinuate the existence of an all vegan biosphere?
For one to accept the belief that the flood story is literally true,one would have to accept the creationist model of cosmology.
As to the claim of whether or not such a ship could actually work,with such payload,one would have to reconstruct the ark according to Biblical creationist theory and test it,much like Thor Hyerdal proved that papyrus reed ships could sail the Atlantic,thus suggesting the link between eastern and western cultures.Maybe instead of spending 27 million dollars on a "museum" trying to portray the Flinstones as a documentary,creationists should attempt such experiments.After all,they call it "Creation Science",where's the experimentation process in their scientific method? | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/19/2008 7:20:09 PM | Ahhh....but see Taurus....we are not approaching this as truth and fact.....we are (at least I am) approaching this story as a 'story' and if it could be a possibility, what does it have for 'story' supportive evidence?
You can only use science to a point in this as science is about the theory of humans coming from cells and some huge blast out in who knows where. Science does not nor can it use theology to explain itself. BUT, religion does try to toss in some science to explain itself.
As it stands...the Bible, up to the time of Noah's departure from the ark, does show that there was a time when humans and living things got along. That would explain "in the story" how all those living things were gathered up and brought together on the ark and why they would have been able to live with each other instead of trying to eat each other. They at that time still had no fear of each other or humans. | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/19/2008 8:24:37 PM | | Hi guys, hope you don't mind if I join in for a sec. One scenario I've always thought would make it 'do-able' would have been hibernation. Many, maybe most, of the animals might have been sleeping. If the flood happened and if the ark was built, and I'm not sayin' yea, or nay - just speculatin'. Food consumption and elimination would have been greatly lessened if they (the animals) were sleeping. Just my 2 cents. | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/19/2008 9:04:03 PM |
Noah’s Ark is the original, while the Gilgamesh Epic is a later distortion.
Except for the small problem that there is absolutely no way to prove this historically while in fact the archaeological record supports the opposite and makes a lie of the above claim.
Looking at that Korean study I have to ask myself if while they were wondering if the design was plausible did they even begin to ask themselves anything about the actual geography and history of the region?
Was Noah the Emperor of Sumer?
To engage in a make-work project of that magnitude and to command the level of resources of that amount in that short order as well as the amount of labour required to build such a vessel, he would have to be. Never mind the fact that he would require a time machine to obtain the engineering and shipbuilding know-how from centuries in the future...at least the Roman era if not later and before you ask, yes I have done some limited reading on the subject, but if you don't believe me I think any primer on the subject of shipbuilding and the vast amount of labour and materials required for such an undertaking would disabuse you (unless you are hopelessly deluded ) of this notion.
Why not just say it was all a miracle and be done with it, hmm?
Because frankly there is no plausible explanation for any of it that is not utter nonsense. charlesedm already did an excellent job of pointing out the fallacies at hand in this utter rubbish, and talkorigins does the rest.
At this point you're just beating a dead horse. But if you insist...perhaps you like your horsemeat in a fine paste...do go on then  | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/20/2008 12:57:25 AM | | I'm really looking forward to the fossils of vegetarian sabertooth tigers, I mean their dental structure should be interesting no? | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/20/2008 8:10:38 AM | I'm STILL curious... if everyone but Noah's horde of highly incestuous family members DIED in this flood, why does Chinese history go back way over 4,000 years and neglect to mention it And if all the Chinese were killed in this flood, I'm afraid THEY didn't get the memo that they don't exist.
Don't tell me... the Great Wall was actually a seawall, right?
James, Port Orchard, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/20/2008 9:30:07 AM | There are too many numbers and time scales that relate to celestial, earth and solar happenings for the story of the ark not to be a story designed to teach esoteric knowledge about the Earth.
The story teaches about the Earth and what we understand of the creation the Earth, sky, Sun, Moon, animals and more esoteric things. It is so heavy in the use of metaphors that any that try a literal understanding do themselves and others disservice, and that is true of most of the Scriptures they can not be understood correctly in the literal. | |
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| The real Noah's Ark.
Posted: 3/20/2008 10:18:24 AM | Hey, seriouslyfunnylady:
is that a pic of your son??
I salute him, you should be proud...I, too
was in the Army....Ft Sill, Ok
God Bless ALL of our troups for doing what they are doing!!
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