custis
| | Joined: 3/16/2005
Msg: 51 | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/1/2008 5:47:46 PM | Mass IS energy in a coherent form.
Mass can be converted back into PURE energy not electrical energy (just electrons moving around) via the E= MC^2 formula (used in atomic bombs).
Unfortunatly that Pure energy is usualy in the form of Heat or Radiation and cannot have any order or structure or cohearance. | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/2/2008 12:50:28 AM | Just to add another twist...
It's been mentioned a couple of times that black holes can create mass. I believe what's being referred to here is Hawking Radiation wherein the basic explanation is that particle and anti-particle pairs are constantly coming into being everywhere but also constantly annihilating each other. However, at the event horizon of a black hole sometimes an anti-particle will fall into the black hole, subtracting from its mass, while the particle is emitted (Hawking Radiation). This model seems to suggest that the amount of matter in the universe would not be affected since the antiparticle reduces the mass of the black hole, and thus black holes can evaporate over time. What I've always wondered about this, though, is couldn't it sometimes be that the particle goes into the black hole and the anti-particle is emitted instead, thus increasing the mass of the black hole and decreasing the mass outside the black hole? | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/3/2008 9:42:07 AM |
What I've always wondered about this, though, is couldn't it sometimes be that the particle goes into the black hole and the anti-particle is emitted instead, thus increasing the mass of the black hole and decreasing the mass outside the black hole?T
Yea this is one of the things they haven't figured out yet!. No theory or Model accounts for the imbalance between particals and anti-particles.
Note: The Mass and energy of a black hole is converted into Hawking radiation as it evaporates. | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/3/2008 11:00:29 PM | I guess we will find out in May 2008. This will either prove if matter can be created/destroyed or prove that it can't.
Wikipedia;
The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is a particle accelerator and hadron collider located at CERN, near Geneva, Switzerland ( [show location on an interactive map] 46°14′N, 6°03′E). Currently under construction, the LHC is scheduled to begin operation in May 2008.[1][2] The LHC is expected to become the world's largest and highest-energy particle accelerator. The LHC is being funded and built in collaboration with over two thousand physicists from thirty-four countries as well as hundreds of universities and laboratories.
When activated, it is hoped that the collider will produce the elusive Higgs boson, the observation of which could confirm the predictions and 'missing links' in the Standard Model of physics and could explain how other elementary particles acquire properties such as mass.[3] The verification of the existence of the Higgs boson would be a significant step in the search for a Grand Unified Theory, which seeks to unify three of the four fundamental forces: electromagnetism, the strong force, and the weak force. The Higgs boson may also help to explain why the remaining force, gravitation, is so weak compared to the other three forces. | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 10:53:24 AM | Wow, I like this subject, kind of a pet peeve of mine. I like to try and say things and read things the layman can understand however. Some of you are way over my head, but let me see if I have this straight.
Where asking if matter can be created or destroyed, some of you are asking if matter can be transferred into energy and visa versa. Two different questions if I understand you all.
As I understand the universe, based on what I have read, matter, even at the smallest of subatomic levels has energy. Based on the laws of Thermodynamics this energy is derived from differences in mass. If you compress matter, any matter, into a small enough volume it gains energy. This energy can be measured by the electromagnetic spectrum. The substance of matter, protons, neutrons and gluons and so forth, can be balanced giving us the known forms of matter, or they can be ripped apart as they become unstable due to instability as the mass becomes to large. Regardless of if your talking about a nuclear device or our sun, the basic building blocks of matter doesn’t just disappear, it will move outward and coalesce in another place. Right now our sun is dumping millions of tons of matter per second out into space as the nuclear reaction continues to convert hydrogen into helium, the difference in mass or the energy created from this blows the remaining subatomic particles into space. What we get here on Earth is a shower of subatomic particles that coalesce here on earth or anywhere else that they end up. On form of matter being transformed into another form and then moving to another place to once again be transformed into another form of matter when it arrives. While all the while the energy of this transformation is measured by us in the electromagnetic spectrum.
Now, there is so much energy transfer going on from this transformation that other things can use the energy to continue to transform other matter into energy, such as all life on earth does.
As I understand big bang, there is a finite or measurable amount of matter in the universe. The amount of matter has not changed in last 12 billion years, only the transfer of matter from one form to another as the laws of motion continue to make the universe expand. Back to energy being derived from a compressed mass expanding into a large mass as the universe expands, more thermodynamics on a much larger scale. Still the amount of matter does not change. Therefore the end conclusion to our universe is that it dies into a cold ever expanding expanse as all matter loses energy as the mass of what we call our universe dissipates as all matter stops moving over time, like wisps of smoke.
Then in comes black holes.....(This is on my mind now)
So we see the universe expanding on a large scale though recent observations. What is going on is that the space between masses of matter we see as galaxies is expanding, not necessarily the space between the galaxies. Strings of galaxies can almost, I emphasize almost, can be thought of as coalescing. We see galaxies colliding, recent observations have pointed out that not only Andromada is heading for us, but maybe we have two other smaller galaxies that are already colliding with the Milky way. I don’t believe it is proven beyond a shadow of doubt that all matter will dissipate its energy completely. Certainly a super massive black hole at the center of every galaxies gives us a lot more to think about.
“What if “ the center of every black hole is the same exact point in space time. Suppose these black holes are not just a building block of galaxies, but themselves are the remnants of the big bang, the one singularity at the beginning blown apart into billions of other black holes, and at the heart of each black hole is “THE” singularity. All of them being the same exact point in space time. The inevitable conclusion to all matter to be condensed back into this singularity which appears to be in billions of places, but isn't.
The only place where matter and energy truly exist as one entity. The face of God perhaps.
I like super string theory too, but the questions don’t stop at membranes, where did the membranes come from?
How did I do? | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 12:48:26 PM |
So we see the universe expanding on a large scale though recent observations. What is going on is that the space between masses of matter we see as galaxies is expanding, not necessarily the space between the galaxies. Strings of galaxies can almost, I emphasize almost, can be thought of as coalescing. We see galaxies colliding, recent observations have pointed out that not only Andromada is heading for us, but maybe we have two other smaller galaxies that are already colliding with the Milky way. I don’t believe it is proven beyond a shadow of doubt that all matter will dissipate its energy completely. Certainly a super massive black hole at the center of every galaxies gives us a lot more to think about.
“What if “ the center of every black hole is the same exact point in space time. Suppose these black holes are not just a building block of galaxies, but themselves are the remnants of the big bang, the one singularity at the beginning blown apart into billions of other black holes, and at the heart of each black hole is “THE” singularity. All of them being the same exact point in space time. The inevitable conclusion to all matter to be condensed back into this singularity which appears to be in billions of places, but isn't.
The only place where matter and energy truly exist as one entity. The face of God perhaps.
I like super string theory too, but the questions don’t stop at membranes, where did the membranes come from?
How did I do?
I don't know where to start here, but first of all, our galaxy belongs to a cluster of galaxies, as do most galaxies we have observed(not all galaxies). Collisions between galaxies are fairly rare. Black holes are thought to be common in the center of galaxies, but there are galaxies that we've observed that don't have very large if any black holes in their center. Rates of rotation near the center of galaxies is what we use to calculate the sized of black holes. What most people don't think about when they think of the universe expanding is that isn't just expanding at the edges, it is expanding everywhere. If what we have observed about the universe's expansion doesn't change in the future, there will be lots of matter at some point in time that is very cold, near absolute zero nothing else.
A side note here is that if gravity is as string theory predicts, LHC will be able to create very small black holes that will exist for just an instant. | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 1:48:54 PM | Agreed Cowboy that the collision of galaxies is a weak part of my theory, however...
You can't dismiss the fact that galaxie clusters and strings of galaxies do seem to be coalescing as greater expanses of nothing appear to bubble between the clusters and strings. This of course is the visible universe we are talking about. As you say, the universe is expanding everywhere, but are the bubbles between the clusters and strings expanding at a larger rate then the clusters and strings are dissapating. If so then the clusters are being pushed together as the bubbles expand.
Certainly no one can say if every galaxy has a black hole, but we can only measure one if other objects are near it or the hole is feeding, which also seems to be somewhat rare. The interesting part of this is that galaxies exist at all. But it’s because they exist that I believe this gives my idea some merit. Certainly larger gravitational fields exist that are beyond our understanding at the moment, otherwise they wouldn’t exist at all. Why is gravity so weak? And what force allowed all the matter in the universe to expand without it falling back in on itself? Did the universe ignore the galactic speed limit for the first few moments of the big bang? Or is there other gravitational fields at work that helped all of that matter achieve escape velocity? At this point it would make more sense if the singularity separated into more singularities pulling the matter apart as they expanded from each other, forming galaxies as it went. The possible foundation for galaxies building.
Or we can talk about dark matter, which would have had to exist prior to the big bang in order for that to work.
This is fun | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 2:00:28 PM | | Think of it as a mirror, smash the mirror and you have thousands of tiny mirrors. (Black Holes) But they are still all part of the same mirror, doesn't make any differnce how many times you smash it or how far away the pieces are from one another, its still the same mirror. | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 6:15:55 PM | Sorry Cowboy, I was brainstorming. Great article, thanks. The only thing I was trying to do is to Is to find some way the universe can remain cyclical. The thought of a cold expanding out of control universe doesn’t settle well with me and somehow it doesn’t seem plausible. So instead of using one big crunch at the end, I was trying to explain it away by having billions of little crunches. I was following no real theory's, just my own stuff.
Per the article, I tend to stay on the side of variable gravity and C not being a constant. For some reason this makes more sense.
But this is just a rookie speaking, just thought is would be fun to talk about... | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 7:34:48 PM | To answer the OP's question. Life has nothing to do with it. There is indeed a mass and energy relationship but it barely plays any role at all when we die. It starts having an effect at either an atomic level or at a stellar level.
Your different atoms were created inside a super nova billions of years ago and billions of miles away.
not really... As we understand it, the big bang took place everywhere at the same time. And a super nova as a certain breed of dying star. It has nothing to do with big bang. That being said, the big bang model is not yet complete.
LOL... I'm not sure if experiments to detect matter loss at the instant of Death have been conducted. But unless there is some sort of unexplained "leakage" then it's difficult to pin down where the "energy" for our soul would come from (since energy and matter are interchangeable according to Einstein’s famous formula).
Yes, there have been experiments. It is the idea behind the movie 21 grams. These studies have been debunked.
One other point, it's been postulated that our brains might be some kind of extremely complex, organic quantum computer. Apparently, certain structures in our neurons exhibit some quantum mechanical features. So that said, if that's true, then thanks to quantum entanglement, we may be more connected to the Universe in ways that we cannot even begin to comprehend, let alone understand.
I am not a neurologist in any way. I do know what QE is about and I would be really surprised if it took place in the brain. I'd really need to see the studies that back this up.
kinky**stard... that was my next question. Could we somehow measure what happens to our electrical field at the moment of death? Or does it just break down into something organic?
Ok, let's set the record straight. It's not electrical currents as is that go through our nerves. It's chemical carrying charges (between neurons) or a standing wave in a long chemical (in nerves)
so energy equals mass and mass equals energy, a yin and yang type statement. we know how mass can be turned into energy but not how energy can be turned into mass. if the e=mc2 formula was correct wouldnt energy be infinite?
Yes, energy can be turned into mass. It has been done in particle colliders, for instance. Gamma rays are also known to spontaneously produce electron and anti electron pairs. Most of the time it goes unnoticed but unders special circumstances it can be measured. Since there appears to be a finite amount of mass in the visible universe, energy would be finite too inside the visible universe. The universe is most probably infinite, so it has infinite energy, but that energy is not reachable for us in any way. There is also the point of "usable" energy. Looks like quietcowboy has already covered the energy into matter question.
mass with no energy The energy will be there: under the form of electromagnetic waves. Thus, unusable by stars or whatever living beings will be left then.
It has already been pointed out here that, if we could convert energy to matter, entropic heat would inevitably be produced. Thus, the equation maybe should be re-written to something like
E - aH = MC2
No. It's not related. Thermodynamics are rules that hold for large systems. I do not know how to put it simply. I'll have to find a way to explain that one.
To answer your question I don't think there have been experiments that turn either all mass into energy or all energy into mass. That doesn't mean it isn't possible, it means we don't know how.
It is not possible with a single particle. To put simply, if you took a photon and made it all mass, you have conversation of energy, but not conservation of momentum. There has to be some energy left over in order for the particle to be above the absolute zero. This allows it to have momentum conservation. You have the same problem the other way around for mass to energy. It can be done with two particles of opposing velocities, such as a positron and electron: they will simply produce a gamma ray.
If you compress matter, any matter, into a small enough volume it gains energy
No. Unless you are talking about forced collisions.
I don’t believe it is proven beyond a shadow of doubt that all matter will dissipate its energy completely. Certainly a super massive black hole at the center of every galaxies gives us a lot more to think about.
No. Not all mass will become energy. Stars will die out, still have mass and the photons will go on and on and on. If I am following you, you are saying that as far as we know, the amount of mass has never changed and yet the stars keep changing mass into photons. It is indeed a problem, and that is one of the problems we are trying to solve with dark matter.
That black holes are an unsolved singularity, I will give you that. But to say they are remnants of the big bang, that does not hold the road. If it were true, we would black holes up to 15 billion light years far and it is not the case. Black holes eventually come into existence.
You can't dismiss the fact that galaxie clusters and strings of galaxies do seem to be coalescing as greater expanses of nothing appear to bubble between the clusters and strings.
That would be true if the universe was finite. It would eventually collapse under its own wieght and would've already done so. The problem is that there seems to be mass balancing out all mass everywhere. Galaxies running into each other is just bad luck.
Did the universe ignore the galactic speed limit for the first few moments of the big bang In a way, yes. That's what we call symmetry breaks. Look it up.
Something else that campe up. Dark matter. It already has been answered. The bottomline is that we don't know shit about dark matter yet. | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 8:29:47 PM | specifically speaking about where our energy goes when we die... our bodies begin the process of decomposition from the moment we die, and it actually takes energy for the process of decomposition. So that is where our energy goes... and once decomposed, we go back to the earth and that is where more energy is stored and used through other natural processes.
If you are a spiritual person, the soul is seen by some as something outside the mass/energy realm therefore is not subject to it's scientific law. | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/5/2008 9:01:46 AM |
Something else that campe up. Dark matter. It already has been answered. The bottomline is that we don't know shit about dark matter yet.
Not exactly true, we know what it is not & we know how it must interact with other matter if it exists at all. | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/5/2008 10:03:51 AM | If you compress matter, any matter, into a small enough volume it gains energy
No. Unless you are talking about forced collisions.
Well to be fair, if you compress any matter you are talking about a forced collision between the matter and whatever is compressing it... That creates heat.
Is that not how diamonds are formed? | |
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| If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/5/2008 7:12:30 PM |
Well to be fair, if you compress any matter you are talking about a forced collision between the matter and whatever is compressing it... That creates heat.
By forced collisions, I meant actual collisions of nuclei. When you compress a gas and its temperature rises, you did not produce any energy. You converted the mechanical energy to heat. You didn't get any "new" energy out of the system, as opposed to burning something or using nuclear fission. | |
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