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 slysterling
Joined: 1/9/2007
Msg: 26
what should the leafs do ?Page 2 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Leafs grease Fergy's wheels today. He's out. Fletcher in as interim GM.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=227906&hubname=nhl
 prairie pundit
Joined: 6/18/2007
Msg: 27
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/22/2008 10:36:15 AM
Canada's version of the Yankees/Torre saga. If I were JFJ, I would have traded Sundin for a bag of pucks a week ago. Talk about being mistreated.
 slysterling
Joined: 1/9/2007
Msg: 28
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/22/2008 10:46:34 AM
"""...Talk about being mistreated..."""
Yep. they treated him like a piece of dogmeat the last couple of weeks. Peddie went west with them on what turned out to be one of their worst ever road trips and still the shoe didn't drop. it should have been done after the Kings game...they should have chucked Maurice as well at the same time.

You and me could have coached more fundamental hockey out of this hockey club. I never seen defencemen flip the puck up over the glass more in a season in my life. Their brains are/were just not on what they're doing. Controlled attitude and activities are what's needed to be successful at pretty much anything. And if the attitude's right, then usually so will the activities. I still think Maurice is hugely over-rated as a coach. I would trade him for mac-T in a heartbeat.

Fergy just blundered his way thru his 5 years. His first signing, Nieuwendyk, 5 years ago, was his best move, so he peaked too early in his career.

"""Five years of failure
By his actions and inaction, John Ferguson Jr. proved he wasn't up to the task..."""
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Toronto/2008/01/22/4786752-sun.html
 fishernick
Joined: 9/6/2007
Msg: 29
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History
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/22/2008 12:20:59 PM
torre won four world championships for the yankees. torre made it to the playoffs every year he coached the yanks. i apologize for the inturruption but i felt it was my duty to point out that you are making quite a stretch comparing a loser to a winner. torre was also the coach and not the general manager
 passionandsong
Joined: 10/9/2007
Msg: 30
view profile
History
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/22/2008 2:05:31 PM
i am not a leafs fan(actually my most hated team).what the leafs have to do is learn how to build a team.look at what the flyers have done.smart trades,good quality young players and a commitment to that.
 prairie pundit
Joined: 6/18/2007
Msg: 31
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/22/2008 3:33:05 PM
"Fergy just blundered his way thru his 5 years. His first signing, Nieuwendyk, 5 years ago, was his best move, so he peaked too early in his career. "

Perhaps in hindsight, but had you asked ANY Leafs fan in September where their favourite team would be in January, you'd have gotten a resounding "top of the league" response.
Even I felt that with the addition of Blake and Toskola, they'd be doing well.
I thought this past off-season was arguably JFJ's best as a GM.



Incidentally, as for the Torre/JFJ comparison, I wasn't comparing their records. Actually, I wasn't comparing JFJ and Torre at all. I was comparing the the way the Canadian media coddled the whole situation...putting out new stories every day on "meetings", etc, just like the American media did regarding the Steinbrenners and Torre. The mystery surrounding the JFJ situation in Toronto was every bit as big in Toronto as the Torre situation was in New York. Every day you'd get a new media report saying "today's the day" or "Fletcher is supposed to go to Mexico, if he gets on the flight, JFJ's job is safe", or "JFJ is supposed to fly to Edmonton for the Prospects game. If he gets on the flight, he's still employed"... just like with the Torre situation saying "Steinbrenners are having a family meeting at Camp David today" blah blah blah.
There was a new wire story every day for weeks on end in both cases.

I suppose "soap opera" would have been a more appropriate term.
 passionandsong
Joined: 10/9/2007
Msg: 32
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History
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/22/2008 3:39:49 PM
"Fergy just blundered his way thru his 5 years. His first signing, Nieuwendyk, 5 years ago, was his best move, so he peaked too early in his career. "

Perhaps in hindsight, but had you asked ANY Leafs fan in September where their favourite team would be in January, you'd have gotten a resounding "top of the league" response.
Even I felt that with the addition of Blake and Toskola, they'd be doing well.
I thought this past off-season was arguably JFJ's best as a GM.

you have got to be kidding me...there is a reason why detroit and jersey have success every year.they build a team.they pay attention to a team concept.hockey has little to do with buying players,it is not baseball.in detroit and jersey you have to start on the fourth line and work your way up.team concept is the most omportant thing.torontos orginization hasnt bought into this.
 prairie pundit
Joined: 6/18/2007
Msg: 33
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/22/2008 4:04:35 PM
"you have got to be kidding me..."
No I'm not.
This is a team that missed the playoffs by a single point last year. They added a bona fide starting goaltender and a 40-goal scorer. Now I'm not a LEafs fan, and I certainly didn't expect them to be "top of the league" like I was saying Leafs fans were claiming, but even I expected them to be a lot better than they are.
 fishernick
Joined: 9/6/2007
Msg: 34
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History
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/22/2008 4:45:12 PM
i understand now what you were saying about the torre/ ferguson correlation and that makes sense to me. if somebody is not standing on the edge of the cliff people in NY are not happy. toronto, from what i hear, is very passionate about its hockey and i hope they right the ship for the fans sake.
 slysterling
Joined: 1/9/2007
Msg: 35
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/22/2008 4:51:42 PM
"""...I thought this past off-season was arguably JFJ's best as a GM..."""

You might be right. He did try a few things and a lot of things kind of blew up on him, but in the class department, what goes around comes around. Quinn brought us some pretty good hockey years and JFJ didn't treat Quinn very well Fergy's first year parking Maurice for a year at the Marlies with everyone knowing that he would be replacing Quinn the next season. Not a real classy move.

But it's a cold business played on ice. He left today with a lot of class. He'll land on his feet. The rest of the league feels terrible about the way Leafs brass left this guy half cut open on the cutting board flailing like a half dead fish the last couple of weeks. Brutal example of a corporation's way of handling personell matters.

He was a bit of a riverboat gambler actually. Just his gambles blew up in his face most times. Before the lockout, he gave up 4 bodies (2 players plus two picks) to rent Bryan Leetch for 13 playoff games, and a 4th round pick for Francis the same year.

He looks bad now for the Rask/Raycroft deal, but at the time, it solved another problem he had created in the first place giving Belfour a huge contract when we knew how old he was getting and he always had a history with his back. Fergy's weakness was contracts. It's very doubtful that Tucker, Kaberle, McCabe, Kubina or half a dozen other Leafs would have got the contracts they did with Lou Lamorello, Bob Gainey, John Muckler, or Brian Burke just to name a few.

Overall their drafting hasn't been all that bad considering their shortage of bonafide pics the last few years. The Marlies are doing very well, something like 29 and 10 to lead their division. It just wasn't meant to be for the guy. He's the fall guy. It makes it easier for everyone to blame him. Then it justfifies embellishing the woes the leafs presently have. Everyone can blow it off and say since the GM screwed it up, we have to get rid of Sundin as it'll be years before we can ever compete again. And that's bullsh1t for a couple of reasons, The primary one being their third period meltdowns on the ice to the tune of maybe close to 20 squandered points thus far this season including another 2 last week in San Jose. The other reason is the way Collangelo retooled the Raptors club, and the way Holmgren seems to have retooled the Flyer operation in less than a year. Maybe not Champions, but certainly capable of competing at high levels.

The Bell Toskala deal will show dividends for the three picks given up. If you don't get to see a lot of games, Toskala's been outstanding most nights. Watching him and Sundin play has been worth the 2 and a half hours of pure bullsh1t that watching the leafs has become this year. And Bell, well this wasn't Bell's year for sure, but he still comes from the Kilrea school of hockey with the Ottawa 67's and he was picked 8th overall, so he's still got upside to him.

Blake looked like a real good deal at the time, and frankly I think leaf fans have been a bit hard on a guy that just found out he has cancer. i think he's played pretty good with the exception being that he should have stopped shooting aa the time, some months ago. Goalies know he's going to shoot all the time because he's pressing too hard to get all the 40 goals he was expected to get. He's a good little stickhandler. But he's starting to remind me of Sergei (I never met a puck I wouldn't shoot) Berezin.

There's a lot of stuff behind the scenes we don't know about. Whether some deals could have been made or not i dunno. But you need change sometimes just for the new blood aspect. That's why i wonder why he didn't go after some blueline help when McCabe went down. There's been 4 or 5 defencemen dealt around the league since that injury and one thing anyone can see, is we need help on the blueline.
Just changing the chemistry of the locker room for the sake of change, there was Roenick, Recchi and possibly Mellanby available for bargain basement prices, and Bryzgalov off of waivers for phoenix at 850K for the year was a steal. Even if the leafs didn't necessarily need a goalie right then, they could have used him as a tradeable asset for something else. You snooze you looze. Both Roenick and Recchi are 500 goal scorers so it would have helped the dressing room with some bonafide experienced savvy hockey players.

The roster hasn't been clicking. The big challenge here is the consistency of the product on the ice, and the coaching that goes along with that has to look in the mirror here. A lot of people really like Maurice, but me, I don't see it myself.

When you see the team cough up all those third period leads in the first half of the season, there's probably at least 12 points, (possibly as much as 20 if i went back thru all the games) right there. This club could easily be well entrenched in 4th place in the East with all those points they squandered. So when a team keeps beating itself, then i look at the coaching. There's no reason for all these third period meltdowns. That's what's so darn frustrating with this squad.

They look like worldbeaters most nights for two periods, and then break your heart if you have one, in the third with absolutely unbelievable unforced mental errors. So there's something going wrong somewhere here, and I'm not sure it's all on Ferguson. But, the old story is it's easier to get rid of a coach than it is a whole team. But i guess in this case, it was the GM that got the axe instead of the coach. Me personally, it would have been the coach. I still don't believe this team is as uncompetitive as they show most third periods to be. Maybe some more experience in the dressing room here would have helped with these third period errors.

Fix that and this team competes.

 prairie pundit
Joined: 6/18/2007
Msg: 36
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/22/2008 7:20:57 PM
Yep, the third period meltdowns have been costly,,,very similar situation here, 180km north of Calgary. I just hope when the time comes to do some front office cleaning in Edmonton they do it quickly, ie. with a machete as opposed to a butter knife.
 cdn*guy
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 37
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/23/2008 1:07:51 AM
Flush out the entire front office and put in people who can recognize hockey talent and potential hockey talent. When that's done, begin flushing the team, keeping maybe a half dozen of those there now. When that's done, Leafs fans can begin the 5-year turnaround wait until the results start to come in.

cdn guy
 passionandsong
Joined: 10/9/2007
Msg: 38
view profile
History
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/23/2008 6:41:42 AM
to sly sterling...recchi and bryzgalov were not available for the leafs.when a player goes throgh waivers the option to pick said player up starts with the teams with the worst records and works its way up.both phoenix and atlanta had worse records then the leafs at the time.its unfortunate,but sundin has to go.although if he decides to not allow so(he has a no trade cause).i would completly respect his choice.sundin has been everything a player can be for a team.for leafs fans sake,you should crossing your fingers that he wants to go for the cup.
 Kaos86
Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 39
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/23/2008 7:40:53 AM
Interesting to note, on the Fan (sports radio station in Toronto) all the callers thought the firing of Fergie Jr. was a good thing but not enough. They want this team blown up and Peddie gone.

Also Darren Pang and Kelly Hrudy agrreed it was time for Mats to move on for the good of the team.
With Peddie still deciding on the next GM and President the circus that is the Leafs will continue.

God Bless You Richard Peddie!
 downtown77
Joined: 1/15/2008
Msg: 40
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/23/2008 8:05:45 AM
the problem with comparing leafs fans to yankees fans and the torre to ferguson situation is that their owner is a joke who wins

the media in this town are nowhere near as fervent as the ny papers in the states are
and the talking heads on our radios and tv's are dissecting a loser team run by a bunch of business men who have no intention of winning

imagine gretzky in toronto playing his heart out for the leafs and setting up sundin for about five years

but it came down to
how many seats will gretzky sell?
we are all sold out now
so we don't need him
enough already
call me when they reach the finals
 slysterling
Joined: 1/9/2007
Msg: 41
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/23/2008 8:08:20 AM
Thanks passion. I never knew that about the waiver wire. Cliff says he's going to take two weeks to put together a new philosophy for the club. I think the bottom line here for me is that it's a bit of a darn shame for Fergy. He boxed himself into a corner with his contracts, and most of the guys that are freed up this summer have apparently been rumoured to say there's no way in he11 they're resigning again. Which tells me a lot about the esprit de corps, and cameraderie in that dressing room.

Granted Fergy wasn't the greatest dealmaker or contract signer, but looking over our farm system last night, he did keep his word that he'd expand it with doubling the scouting staff, and we have quite a few bodies scattered thruout our farm system. Why we didn't give some of these farm hands a chance I'm not sure. I mean just how long are we going to keep Gamache (who has now buggered offf to europe to play), Kronwall, and a few others like harrison and Pohl down on the farm is beyond me. Surely they can't be that bad not to be able to play for a 27th ranked squad. And if they are that bad, then why do we have them under contract.

It looks like Boyce will be playing for a couple of games on a callup, maybe to showcase his talents as part of a potential trade package, maybe to replace dead men skating like Tucker out there. Tucker has to be moved. He should never have been resigned last year to four more years. I'm just not sure what Fergy was thinking on that one, but both Tucker and the leafs, need a break from each other. He seems to have gotten rid of his sideshow Bob act, but, forgot to replace it with something of substance. Definitely a bonafide diminishing asset. We might be able to get something for him from one of the contenders, otherwise just buy him outright and release him. He's gone stale and he's down to the fourth line now with about 10 shifts per game. Nowhere near worth the contract he signed. Most of the smaller guys he's picked a fight with this year have wupped him soundly, so I'm not sure what role he's actually trying to play out there anymore. He doesn't seem to be able to score or fight and his skatings always been suspect and it's really started to show this year how much he's slowed up.

The team on the ice has grossly grossly underachieved. Look at some of these guys goal totals. How they honestly cash their paycheques with any conscience is beyond me. Tucker, Wellwood, Stajan, Kilger, Devereaux, Steen all with less than 10 goals nearly 50 games into the sked. Steen we remember as part two of Kaberle Steen, that Fergy wouldn't give up for Pronger two years ago. Duh. A bluechip stud like Pronger for Kaberle and Steen. That one was a no-brainer. Watch the replay of the Sabres 2nd goal early in the third from last saturday night to get the Sabres back in the game. Steen refused to pick up a man three times in his end. now normally Steen's not bad on the backcheck, but watching him stand out near the blueline with his hands in his pockets tells me there's a complete lack of systems in place. The sabres first goal was basically a 5 on 3, that ended up a 5 on 4 while the leafs made another of their many sloppy sloppy line changes.

Making the deal for Pronger, we probably wouldn't be tied into these bullsh1t contracts with Mccabe, Gill or Kubina. That's the second most expensive defensive foursome in the league. To generate a bloated 160 goals against. And that's with Toskala standing on his head most nights in the nets.

I think Cliff will get Mats to waive, and then resign him again in the summer. The way he's playing right now he looks good for three to five more years. Keep putting the pieces to the puzzle together around him. The next two years drafts are supposed to be bumper crops, so we should be looking to score two extra first round pics and two extra second round pics over the next two drafts to put a new core in place.

A lot of the problems with this years club goes to poor fundamental play, which reflects directly on the coaching. Their passing is atrocious unless they're on the powerplay, then they pass it away till their hearts content without taking a shot. Their defensive breakout systems seem most nights to be almost non-existent. their defensive zone coverage is utterly abysmal...And then there's the unforced errors that come up every night usually one after the other in the third period.

Kaberle seems to have regressed in his play the last few seasons so he's now a diminishing asset as well. Same with Kubina and Gill. Maybe there's some clubs that will look for these guys to bolster their playoff rosters. if you're gonna blow it up, my attitude is go big or go home. Blow nearly the whole thing up. The only players worth watching are Toskala, Blake and Sundin. The rest of this club you can flush down the toilet.

19 months seems like a long time to some, but i'm wondering if Cliff hasn't decided already to take someone like Killer under his wing and groom him for the position, and give Dougie the year and half necessary to put his own staff together..

Anyways, change is an ongoing process, and we'll see in the days ahead what changes are in store for us. Having watched most of the first 49 games, this club has skated to a lead by the end of the second period most nights. Whatever koolaid they drink between the second and third period, they need to stop drinking it because they come out in the third so often like a junior A club, it's a mystery to me for sure. I don't think this club is pushed enough in practice, hence a conditioning issue. Why else would a club continually wilt and give up two and three goal third period leads?

Fergy lost his job yesterday and most leaf fans aren't sad to see the guy go. I'm sure that Gilmour having sat up in the box with Fergy all this time realizes this team can't close out a game for whatever the reasons are. It wouldn't surprise me to see Cliff pull the plug on Maurice in a few weeks. There's only so many tears a leaf fan should have to tolerate from a coaches postgame interviews. Please. That was just brutaal to watch a leaf coach cry after their third period meltdown in San Jose last week. He should have been replaced right there and then. All he ever wants to talk about is how tough the swarm of press is around him and how bright the media glare is. Get him out of town. He reminds me of Brophy and Floyd Smith the way he constantly rags about the Toronto media. Don't like it? Leave.

Even though Cliff said all the right things yesterday about building thru the draft, something tells me he's still maybe going to try to salvage this season and make a run for 8th. He'll get brought up to speed over the all star break and then we'll see him start to move some bodies. i'm sure he's wondering what floaters to start with first since there's just so damn many of them on this years club. Flyers have always liked Antropov, and we've only invested 8 years in this kid to see him reach a career high 18 goals this season. Move him. He should have been moved 5 years ago.

There's a lot of things this club can do, but i wonder what big changes the Caps made from being doormats to now being the team most likey to push it's way into the playoffs. Oh that's right. The only change they made was a coaching change back about 25 games ago. His systems are now in place and the team is making it's move.

The Leafs should have moved the systemless Maurice out after the debacle in Phoenix after having given the game away in the third to the Stars the night before in Dallas. They'd already given up third period leads a half dozen times by that stage in late November. Now it's just gotten worse, and now it's a bit late to bring a new coach in. 20 to 25 games to get new systems in place and this season's over. 49 games in and this coach still hasn't found line matchuips that work. This coach needs to stop whining about all the media pressure and get on with his job.
 rit18
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 42
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/24/2008 8:45:59 PM
Contract and move to Sheboygan
 Kaos86
Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 43
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/25/2008 12:28:15 PM
"What Should The Leafs Do"?

Punt!
 latin canadian
Joined: 5/7/2007
Msg: 44
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/25/2008 4:54:42 PM
honestly for a team who has a the money to compete with the american market teams they haven't done much for there future. they keep on trying to get a free agent to help them but they get guys beyond their prime. It is time to rebuild that team we don't have many canadian teams and considering that the leafs are one of the original six the city deserves more than a group of underachieving players....I am from montreal and considering the rivalry both teams have to wake up and start winning...I mean common Ottawa has put together a team and they were an expansion team teams like the canadiens and leafs have to be on a higher level cause of the history these two cities have hopefully these teams can make some smart moves and meet in the east fianl sometime soon.
 Castledale66
Joined: 1/22/2008
Msg: 45
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/26/2008 3:22:42 PM
Trade in Matt Sundin after value !
The bills are getting too high, and the fans don't get their money worth, so lower the season tickets too!
 francis10
Joined: 7/21/2007
Msg: 46
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/30/2008 7:41:20 PM

trecchi and bryzgalov were not available for the leafs.when a player goes throgh waivers the option to pick said player up starts with the teams with the worst records and works its way up.both phoenix and atlanta had worse records then the leafs at the time.


How it works is the team with the lower winning% gets first choice. Since the Leafs had only 8 wins in 21 games and Phoenix had 8 wins in 18 games, the leafs had a worse winning% than the Coyotes... The leafs messed up and didn't take Bryzy.... But they did have the opportunity..
 francis10
Joined: 7/21/2007
Msg: 47
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 1/30/2008 7:56:06 PM

honestly for a team who has a the money to compete with the american market teams they haven't done much for there future. they keep on trying to get a free agent to help them but they get guys beyond their prime.


Post lockout who did they acquire that is beyond their prime? They havn't acquired anyone beyond their prime.. If anything they let them walk... Roberts, Neiuendyk, Domi, Lindros, Allison, Belfour... Lindros was great for the team, not sure why they woulnd't give him another chance he played pretty decent and ya Allison was kinda slow, but still a point a game..

Another point. Tucker is worth 3 million bucks.. just not this year... they guy just came off a career year... this year he has been hurt.. big deal. He does need to start stepping up so he can bring up his trade value tho.
Bryan McCabe is worth every penny, only if he is getting 60 points, but he's not, because he is hurt too.
I am disappointed in Kaberle... This guy seems to be on the bubble, between elite and great. Hands down this teams best player.
What should the leafs do?

Get whatever they can for tucker, Kaberle, Sundin, Blake, Antropov, Poni, Toskala, and raycroft... Get atleast 5 decent prospects and 10 draft picks for those players. The draft is deep this year, plus by doing this, you ensure yourselves of a high pick next year too, maybe Traveras... Bring up pogge and clemmonsen, let them fight it out for top spot. Fire Maurice and hire Pierre McGuire as head coach. He knows his hockey. And hire Bob Mckenzie as the GM... If you cant get the best, get the people that know the game best. Throw Yzerman in there somewhere too, he is loved by 90% of the players..
 Kaos86
Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 48
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 2/2/2008 9:55:47 AM
"What should the Leafs do?"

QUIT
 prairie pundit
Joined: 6/18/2007
Msg: 49
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 2/2/2008 11:22:44 AM
"How it works is the team with the lower winning% gets first choice. Since the Leafs had only 8 wins in 21 games and Phoenix had 8 wins in 18 games, the leafs had a worse winning% than the Coyotes.."

Actually, that's not quite true, but you're on the right track. It's not based on winning percentage but rather on "lowest percentage of possible points. "
With points given for overtime losses and shootout losses, that is considerably different than a winning percentage.

On Nov. 16, the Toronto Maple Leafs has a 7-8-5 record, good for 19 points in 20 games. 19 of a possible 40 points works out to a percentage of .475

On Nov. 16 the Phoenix Coyotes had a 7-10-0 record, good for 14 points in 17 games. 14 of a possible 34 points works out to a percentage of .412

The Toronto Maple Leafs never had a shot at Bryzgalov.
 prairie pundit
Joined: 6/18/2007
Msg: 50
what should the leafs do ?
Posted: 2/2/2008 11:25:33 AM
"How it works is the team with the lower winning% gets first choice. Since the Leafs had only 8 wins in 21 games and Phoenix had 8 wins in 18 games, the leafs had a worse winning% than the Coyotes.."

Actually, that's not quite true, but you're on the right track. It's not based on winning percentage but rather on "lowest percentage of possible points. "
With points given for overtime losses and shootout losses, that is considerably different than a winning percentage.
(You were also using the records after the games Nov. 17. Waiver draft issues are dealt with by noon Eastern Time. The Coyotes had already claimed Bryzgalov by the time they won their eighth game that night. Actually, he got the win.)

On Nov. 16, the Toronto Maple Leafs has a 7-8-5 record, good for 19 points in 20 games. 19 of a possible 40 points works out to a percentage of .475

On Nov. 16 the Phoenix Coyotes had a 7-10-0 record, good for 14 points in 17 games. 14 of a possible 34 points works out to a percentage of .412

The Toronto Maple Leafs never had a shot at Bryzgalov.
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