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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Americans please I beg of you, vote informed      Mod Threads Home login  
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 Author Thread: Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 76
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Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 1/22/2008 2:01:11 PM
Double post (grrrrr)



Low unemployment, more home owners, more jobs than any preceding president and still you think the economy is bad?


If it was so good would financial markets plunge, and the President be reaching for that little metal hammer on a chain attached to the the red box filled with 150 billion dollars marked :


In Case Of Financial Meltdown - Break glass
?

 arieann

Joined: 7/20/2007
Msg: 77
Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 1/22/2008 2:52:39 PM
I just became more fonder of Obama because i loved his joke. A reporter ask him if he thinks Former Pres. Clinton was the first black president, His reply was he deeded to see his dancing ability before he could make an opinion of that.. Ok, People can call him a racist for this, but I dont see it this way. I think he has a great sense of humor. I like that. It may be stupid, but thats a point for him in my book.
 AncientCelt

Joined: 1/15/2008
Msg: 78
Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 1/22/2008 5:06:40 PM
First of all MG, whats wrong with the rich getting richer, who are you, and who am i ever to criticize anyone for working thier tails off to become rich. So many forget the rich pay 80% of the taxes in this country, the poor pay the least, and the poor get most of the government assistance. A person making under 35,000 dollars a year here while paying wage tax and fica, actually get most of thier money back in whats called an earned income credit. As for Obama, I keep hearing he is gonna be the first Black president, but excuse me if i'm wrong, isn't his mother white? So I guess his ability to jump and dance are limited as well.
 rsx11s

Joined: 3/28/2007
Msg: 79
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Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 1/22/2008 5:33:59 PM

To begin with, Carter had systematically dismantled the military by continued slashing of the budget, had he been re-elected, we would have been throwing rocks as defense of Soviet Missiles to this day. We were knee deep in a post war recession


Can I har that again?


post war recession


That's what I thought you said.

And every Repblican administration since has made it far far worse until something had to snap.

If you listen very carefully that sound you hear isn't a tree branch outside.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 80
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Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 1/22/2008 5:41:22 PM

First of all MG, whats wrong with the rich getting richer, who are you, and who am i ever to criticize anyone for working thier tails off to become rich. So many forget the rich pay 80% of the taxes in this country, the poor pay the least, and the poor get most of the government assistance.


Well, I don't actually have anything against people working hard and getting ahead. I'm quite a productive person , and a believer in capitalism.

I've written about living in California in the mid-Sixties for a short period, and being quite amazed at how different your country was from mine then. Workers owned their own homes, had cars, and even commonly had swimming pools in their back yards.

Impressed the hell out of of this nine year old Canadian kid, at the time. It was totally different from what I knew.

That's no longer the case there now.

Many of those super rich DON'T work their tails off . They get taxpayer money given to their corporations, and then turn around and claim it's their good management that made the difference. Failed CEO's take home golden packages, at the expense of the workers.

Others ship jobs off to far off lands, and reap great economic gains for selling out their country.

They live like Saudi princes, and they still need more to fill their hollow souls.

Sports stars play mediocre versions of children's games, act irresponsibly, and the average working class person can no longer afford to go to the games.

Music stars produce tepid music, and are richly rewarded.

It's an overall malaise of the American spirit, and the common man sees his life get tougher each and every day. His dreams get further and further away, his debt grows, his family suffers - and he's told to work even harder.

Should the rich pay more ?

You bet.

Where they going to go , if they don't like it ?

Russia ? Europe ?

I don't think so, let's call their bluff this time.


Income: The federal income tax, when it began in 1913, applied only to the highest incomes. It expanded to most wage earners after World War II, but it retained an essential fairness, since the tax is based on ability to pay. The poorest pay no tax, while as taxpayers go up in income, they pay a higher percentage. That fairness has been eroded by successive waves of tax changes benefitting the very rich. At the end of World War II, the top rate was 94 percent — on regular income above $200,000. That top rate drifted mostly downward until it reached 33 percent in 1988, and then went up in the Bush Sr. and Clinton years to about 40 percent. Under President George W. Bush, the top rate was cut again — to 35 percent.

Capital gains: In the Clinton and Bush Jr. years, the tax rate was also cut in half on capital gains — the increase in value of stocks or real estate when it is sold. The top capital gains tax rate fell from 28 to 20 percent under Clinton, and from 20 to 15 percent under Bush, Jr. A capital gains tax cut is by definition a tax cut for the rich. On average, capital gains make up 3 to 4 percent of the income of taxpayers earning less than $100,000 a year. But capital gains make up about 60 percent of the income of those earning over $10 million a year.

Dividends: Taxes on dividends have also fallen — from 70 percent in 1980 to 15 percent today.

Estate: Under a law passed by the Bush Jr. Administration, estate taxes are scheduled to fall from 50 percent to 0 percent through 2010.

Paying less in income tax, capital gains tax, dividend tax and estate tax, the wealthiest have been able keep much more of their wealth — and use it to make even more.

Bob McIntyre of the Washington, D.C.,-based Citizens for Tax Justice calculates that since the Reagan era, the cumulative value of all of the federal tax cuts adds up to roughly $2.8 trillion. In other words, a very sizable portion of today’s $7.4 trillion federal debt is the result of these tax cuts.

What makes the tax cuts on the wealthiest especially unfair is the fact that taxes on working people have been going up at the same time. Medicare taxes, in response to rising health care costs, have risen from 1.8 to 2.9 percent, split between employees and employers.

Changes to Social Security have been more significant still. Since its founding in 1935, Social Security was always a “pay as you go” system, funded by a flat tax with half paid by the employer and half by the employee (on income up to a certain amount, currently $90,000). In other words, today’s workers and employers pay to support today’s retirees.

But in the ’70s and ’80s, a change was made, on the recommendation of a commission chaired by Alan Greenspan. The retirement age was raised, benefits above a certain level would now be taxed, and the Social Security payroll tax was increased from 9.9 to 12.4 percent.

Now, workers were to pay in advance for future benefits, with the money held in a “trust fund,” which is “loaned” to the federal government at interest, currently 6 percent. Last year, for example, Social Security took in $531 billion in taxes and paid $479 billion in benefits and administrative costs. The difference was added to the trust fund, which totalled $1.5 trillion at the beginning of 2004.

The theory was that this extra tax revenue would help the federal government pay down its debt, so that when the baby-boom generation came due for retirement, it would be feasible for the government to borrow money again.

Instead, the government cut taxes on the richest.

http://www.nwlaborpress.org/2004/11-5-04Taxes.html



If one starts to figure in these hidden "taxes" , like those paid on purchases, then this rosy picture of how much the rich are paying is made a little clearer.

I'm a believer in "noblesse oblige". If one makes a great fortune in a country due to his effort, then he should be glad to pay back some extra money to support it. I'm not crying for any millionaires, if they pay a lot in taxes.

They've still got a lot left to enjoy.

They also have a responsibility to society to make sure that the economy runs well, that wealth is given to others, and that everyone gains overall. If they can do that, then they've truly earned their money well.

If they are simple parasites that put Americans out of work for their profit , or design bad products, or make a pirate's treasure in profit while doing little to justify it (like those mediocre/failed CEO's) then they create more problems than they solve.
 arieann

Joined: 7/20/2007
Msg: 81
Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 1/23/2008 3:17:24 AM
I have worked for the state ofNC for 10 years now. Since I have started, the products I buy have at least doubled in price. I remember buying a loaf of bread at 2 for $1.00. Now it it $1.09 a loaf. Gas was about $1.00 a gallon. It is now $3.05 a gallon. Canned vegtables were about 3/$1.00. Now they are $0.69 a can. But yet, my income has increased by less than 25% The legislation staff for five years voted against an across the board pay raise for state employees because it was not in the budget. Yet did vote a 25% payraise for themselves, 15% payraise for teachers and a 10% payraise for Registered Nurses each year. Why could they even it out and everyone get a 5 to 10 % pay raise each year. Its called Greed, I think. The cost of living goes up for everyone, not just rich people.
 TimPommell

Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 82
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Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 1/23/2008 5:59:55 AM
Monty Monty Monty....

I'm a believer in "noblesse oblige". If one makes a great fortune in a country due to his effort, then he should be glad to pay back some extra money to support it. I'm not crying for any millionaires, if they pay a lot in taxes.
Exactly where is that cut off Monty? Are you not aware of the Wal-Mart prescription drug program? They are losing millions in potential profits by selling many prescription drugs for a flat $4.... Who else is doing that? The American dream is make your fortune, the socialist dream is that we pass a law requiring them to share it with those who did nothing to contribute to the realization of that dream.


They've still got a lot left to enjoy.
And you feel they don't have the right to decide how to spend the money they earned? Whether you agree with their success or not is completely immaterial. Any company, through prudent management, such as Wal-Mart, that provides the customer exactly what they want at a price they can afford is simply the correct approach to free market economics. The argument that Wal-Mart put so many small stores out of business is ridiculous. The guy started as a clerk at JC Penny in 1940 and worked in the small town local retail environment for 22 years before he was able to open his own five and dime store in Bentonville AR, i.e.; Wal-Mart IS an example of mom & pop small business with the correct approach to retail.


They also have a responsibility to society to make sure that the economy runs well, that wealth is given to others, and that everyone gains overall. If they can do that, then they've truly earned their money well.
As a non-socialist country, the consumer dictates who has “earned their money well”, it seems apparent we've chosen Wal-Mart. By the way, were you not aware that Hillary Clinton was on the Board of Directors for Wal-Mart while her husband was Governor of Arkansas? It is the responsibility of the CONSUMER to see that the economy runs well, and this socialist BS about wealth sharing is probably the looniest notion I've ever heard. I can't think of a single über millionaire that doesn't have some sort of philanthropic foundation.


If they are simple parasites that put Americans out of work for their profit , or design bad products, or make a pirate's treasure in profit while doing little to justify it (like those mediocre/failed CEO's) then they create more problems than they solve.
It's clear you either don't understand the concept of free market or are just so immersed in your desire for socialism you think the state has some sort of a moral obligation to penalize individual success.
 msquared

Joined: 8/31/2004
Msg: 83
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Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 1/23/2008 7:06:11 AM
It seems you have mistakenly missed most of the points Montreal Guy made. Perhaps you should read his post again.
 TimPommell

Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 84
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Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 1/23/2008 7:19:26 AM

It seems you have mistakenly missed most of the points Montreal Guy made. Perhaps you should read his post again.
I haven't missed any of it, I just don't have the time to respond to all the cut and paste articles, I'm busy working and paying my fair share of taxes
 rsx11s

Joined: 3/28/2007
Msg: 85
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Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 1/23/2008 1:54:26 PM
Maybe you could do it in a commercial?

So much for an informed electorate.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 86
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Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 1/23/2008 2:28:02 PM
Your perception of the world is your reality.

If that perception is manipulated somehow, reality does change. You start to see things in a different light, and that can be either a plus or a minus.

By being informed, you have to challenge your beliefs - liberal or conservative.

Are things really as they seem, or are they not ?

What's important to you ?

Where do you get your information ?

What's happened in your life to influence your viewpoint , and can that change ?

If others provide the information you base your perceptions on, they can run your world because their world becomes yours. You begin to see only what you want to see, because you are blinded to anything else.

That applies to either side of this Great Divide we call modern politics.
 TimPommell

Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 87
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Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 1/24/2008 3:36:56 AM
Monty, I couldn't agree with you more. If you get your information from a source you know to be tainted, then you are not informed, you are voluntarily mislead.
For example, political talk shows both on radio and on TV are not news programs, they are political discussion, and all have injected their own personal agenda. I used to watch the Sunday morning news programs as though I had an obsession and considered myself to be informed. Then one evening I watched a speech and it was discussed the next morning... much to my surprise, what was broadcast was not even close to what was actually said in the speech. From that point forward I checked as much information as was available in print to get what I felt was the whole story.
Now that we have the internet, I can watch what the political figures actually say, and I can check the congressional record for what they actually do. I no longer have to put my faith into the hands of anyone who claims to be "reporting" the news, because quite frankly I don't think that simple act has been done by any news organization in many many years. The old adage that politicians say one thing and do another is being replaced by "journalists" who hear one thing and write another...
We all have a brain, and some of us have common sense, it’s a shame many seem to favor giving over the job of thought and reasoning to others who are no more intelligent than anyone else, and no less prone to bias.
 sweetbytch

Joined: 6/30/2008
Msg: 88
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Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 7/8/2008 11:05:26 PM
In response to your post, Is it realistically possible to really be informed of who are candidates truly are? It's all about the golden rule. Whomever has the gold rules. It is foul to see celebrities from the entertainment industry prostituting themselves out to gather votes for candidates. Its all a dog and pony show. I will vote. But do I like any of the candidates? Not one. It will simply be a choice between the lesser of two evils.
We have been betrayed by this government. I believe no one should vote this year. Maybe that would send a statement to the minority who decide for the masses . The people of this country need to start paying attention and using critical thinking skills.
We are all being desensitized to what is coming in the future. Think about this, does anyone really believe that making air travelers, remove their shoes, and submit to searches has really prevented further supposed acts of terrorism? How about giving the feds the right to enter our homes without a search warrant, or listen in on our phone calls? I do not feel safer, I feel like I am being treated like a criminal. So, I am sorry if I have little enthusiasm for excercising my right when all that has resulted is more of my rights being taken away.
 Bluesman2008

Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 89
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Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 7/8/2008 11:38:28 PM

mike -lol, I don't doubt it. As you can see here I made a point and yet for some reason I am being attacked for it


Ignore the idiots. This place is full of them. You're right of course. People must be informed. As to the economy in your state, it would be great if you could start manufacturing green energy components like wind props and solar panels because the is roughly one million square miles of empty desert in this country just begging for windmill farms and solar panel farms. That could provide practically free electrical energy for the whole country. I've heard on the news that the ONLY thing holding things back are the permits. But once granted, someone will have to be ready to provide product. I think that's going to be the way of the future. Our current energy grids are completely outdated and one wonders how they've sustained thus far. We must look to the future and not cry about the past.

There are windmills popping up all over the desert near Palm Springs California and I predict you're going to see them along with solar power farms all over the desert eventually. Pass that along to your governor. Maybe something will happen. It has to start somewhere. Cheers and keep that message coming. People need to hear it over and over and over so they'll eventually be as influenced by that as much as the BS feel-good propaganda they've been fed for decades. It's deprogramming.
 Bluesman2008

Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 90
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Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 7/9/2008 1:02:58 AM

please shut up with REALLY dumb postings. The same people more or less voted bush twice and clinton twice...and Clinton was the worst ever. Wish W could go 4-more!!


Now THAT was a dumb posting. Yes I'd like to see bush go four more...four more years in prison...just for starters. Then life. Then try him in the Hague and be done with him once and for all along with all the ditto heads that support him.
 nashtnt

Joined: 4/23/2008
Msg: 91
Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 7/9/2008 2:06:21 AM
Thanks SimmahDahnNah for the link to this questionaire to determine which candidate's views on issues you are more in line with. This only confirmed what I already knew and why I'm an independent. I agree with both candidates on several issues, but I'm more in agreement with Obama as a whole. I would have liked to see what the score would be if Ron Paul was on this.

http://www.wqad.com/Global/link.asp?L=259460

Barack Obama
Score: 57
Agree
Iraq
Immigration
Taxes
Stem-Cell Research
Health Care
Energy
Marriage
Death Penalty
Environment

Disagree
Abortion
Social Security
Line-Item Veto
Gun Control


John McCain
Score: 33
Agree
Immigration
Abortion
Social Security
Line-Item Veto
Marriage
Death Penalty
Gun Control

Disagree
Iraq
Taxes
Stem-Cell Research
Health Care
Energy
Environment

I would encourage others to also go through this short questionaire and see just who is in line with issues that are important to you.
 wishfulthinkn

Joined: 5/24/2008
Msg: 92
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Americans please I beg of you, vote informed
Posted: 7/9/2008 2:42:20 AM
i agree with the basic thrust of your appeal. that said, this comment struck me as terribly elitist
.....and if you haven't taken a COLLGE LEVEL GOVERNMENT COURSE ON POLITICS whereby you truly understand the fundamental platform differences between parties.....


it just struck a chord with me, and a dissonant one at that. intentions aside, words do matter, don't they?

living in an area of farmers and boat-builders and other people who work as much with their hands and physical strength as they do their minds, i've found myself surprised at how attuned these people are to the economy, the affects of free trade agreements, the personal impact of soliders lost or maimed in battle, the dollar's loss of value, and the day-to-day toll of inflation.

i'm pretty much convinced most folks can figure this out without going to college first.
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