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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 4:09:15 AM | Darwinism at it's finest. Shame they killed the tiger for doing what comes naturally though.
Too bad they were killed but what a bunch of morons! As to the above post I agree. | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 4:27:14 AM | I am in total agreement with Jayx and Justme1124, animals should not be locked up in enclosures in Zoo's. It is a unnatural environment for animals, taking into account that these majestic creatures are roaming over vast area rs in the wild. yet, in view of some of the comments I have read, it seems to be perfectly reasonable and fair to some people, that keeping wild animals in captivity is a good thing for the preservation of the species and for the public to view them. Well, in my opinion wild animals should be left in the wild where they belong. I am sorry for the young man who got killed and for his family, but he got what he was looking for. Wild animals cannot differentiate between prey, be it an animal or human. However, I am very sad that the tiger was killed, because the animal was only doing what comes naturally to him. | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 5:44:03 AM |
Well, in my opinion wild animals should be left in the wild where they belong.
Keeping them in a zoo is actually the ONLY way some animals will survive in the coming years. With 6,000,000,000+ people and climbing, there aren't that many places where animals can be 'wild.' Not to mention in many countries these animals are more treasured for thier various parts than they are alive. Tigers will be probably extinct in the wild in a few years. | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 5:57:20 AM |
Personally, I think the zoo should be fined (for not being in compliance on wall height); the walls should be built higher (which they are), and all of the boys & their families should not get one penny!
I agree.
It's a miracle that they didn't kill, or get killed, driving to the zoo drunk on vodka and stoned. | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 6:21:04 AM | >>>Personally, I think the zoo should be fined (for not being in compliance on wall height); the walls should be built higher (which they are), and all of the boys & their families should not get one penny!
I find it funny that you admit that the Zoo did share some of the blame, but shouldn't be responsible to pay for these men's bills. They sure as hell acted insanely poorly, but they were not responsible to keep that animal safely away from humans- the zoo was- and they dropped the ball. They should have to pay for the survivors medical bills and the deceased funeral bills- and not a penny after that. They may have provoked the beast, but they hold no responsibility for keeping the animal in its enclosed area, and the zoo dropped the ball in both having dangerous animals in enclosures where they can escape and allowing an animal that's attacked people before to continue to be in that zoo.
I personally find alot of this sad, and many unnecessary deaths and injuries for both human and animal, but the saddest part to me is peoples desperation to blame the victims- OMG! They were drinking! They were high! They were provoking the animal!
That animal proved less than a year earlier that it was both capable and willing to attack humans- and nothing was done about it- it was a ticking time bomb, and the mental state of the victims wouldn't have changed that. Another year, and maybe the Tiger would have escaped and attacked a sober person- and I have little doubt in my mind the same people who argue that these men were to blame would argue no matter *what* that anyone who that tiger attacked would be to blame, reguardless of their mental state or idiotic actions. | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 6:51:49 AM |
I dont think the victims are angels, but still think the zoo are mostly responsible. And before anyone starts, weather an animal should be in captivity or not is not the topic.
I have to agree with that statement.
While I disagree with the concept of zoos and have not visited one or attended a circus in about 15 years, it still remains that any organization that exhibits wild animals has a responsibilty to keep their patrons safe. My two foot long house cat can leap to the top of my four foot tall entertainment center with no effort, so it stands to reason a six foot tiger could easily leap a 12 foot wall. The zoo and the inspectors who did not realize it was not up to code should be held responsible.
Having said that, I also think that the kids are still lying and do believe they were throwing objects at the tiger as evidenced by the sticks and pine cones found in the moat. Stupid and cruel, but the tiger should not have been able to escape.
It is unfortunate that the cat had to be killed. Ideally I would have liked to have seen it drugged and relocated to a sanctuary, but at the time there was no tranquilizer gun available and the tiger was still attacking. It would have been even more horrible had it attacked an innocent child who happened upon the scene. The officers had no choice.
I have seen many clips of stupid people at zoos, like the man who climbed a fence to sit nearer the cage for a photo op and was mauled through the bars by a panda bear, or the child who was allowed to sit on the top of the wall and fell into a gorilla enclosure. I doubt those people could sue because they placed themselves in danger by circumventing the safety measures.
Had these young men fallen into the tiger's enclosure when standing on the rail, it would be completely their fault. Of course a part of me thinks, "Bunch of idiots got what they deserved", but the bottom line is the tiger GOT OUT because the zoo was not in compliance with regulations. That makes them negligent and the fault lies with the zoo. It is probably sheer luck that it never happened sooner and at a busier time. | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 8:20:22 AM | I do suppose that the bottom line is the zoo was at fault for not keeping the tiger in its enclosure. However, the zoo was built in the 1940's and with no problems before.... I can't say that they should have had reasonable knowledge that the tiger could get out. Why would they? It was the accredidation agency that recommends walls be 16 feet, and IF they had mentioned it in any of their inspections, maybe the zoo would have complied to retain their accredidation. But, again, it was never an issue, and they were never told or recommended to change it. There was no reason to. Yes, the tiger attacked a year ago, but it was a zoo employee, feeding it through bars, and the tiger reached through the bars. That was not quite a "mean" tiger.. it was an animal being fed, and an employee within reach of the tiger. They quit the practice of feeding them like that. I would vote that the boys were at fault, but I would assume the zoo has the legal responsibility to keep the animals enclosed. | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 8:48:37 AM |
That animal proved less than a year earlier that it was both capable and willing to attack humans- and nothing was done about it- it was a ticking time bomb, and the mental state of the victims wouldn't have changed that. Another year, and maybe the Tiger would have escaped and attacked a sober person- and I have little doubt in my mind the same people who argue that these men were to blame would argue no matter *what* that anyone who that tiger attacked would be to blame, reguardless of their mental state or idiotic actions.
It was the accredidation agency that recommends walls be 16 feet, and IF they had mentioned it in any of their inspections, maybe the zoo would have complied to retain their accredidation. But, again, it was never an issue, and they were never told or recommended to change it. There was no reason to. Yes, the tiger attacked a year ago, but it was a zoo employee, feeding it through bars, and the tiger reached through the bars. That was not quite a "mean" tiger.. it was an animal being fed, and an employee within reach of the tiger. They quit the practice of feeding them like that. I would vote that the boys were at fault, but I would assume the zoo has the legal responsibility to keep the animals enclosed.
I agree with both posters.
I've read reports that said the zoo employee who was attacked wasn't paying attention while she was feeding the tiger...looking off, chatting with people standing nearby...and the tiger attacked. Hmmmm, who should have been extra vigilant when hand feeding a wild animal??? What was the tiger really doing? Was it really trying to attack her or was it just trying to get more of the food that she was holding? Who knows, but if the reports are true, clearly her lack of attention is at fault and due to her incompetence, the tiger was branded as bad. | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 9:17:38 AM | | Look.... these kids may have been acting like jackasses... stoned...drunk...whatever...My problem is.... HOW IN THE HELL WAS THIS TIGER ABLE TO GET OUT!!!!....find that out!!....and then you can point fingers!! If the Zoo's cannot keep the animals safe... or the public safe.... then it's time to do away with the Zoo's!!! | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 10:58:30 AM | I told you there was a bigger reason why the tiger did what it did.
arieann - I think there's more to the story. I don't think that's all those kids did. We may find the story is just beginning to unfold.
What else are you thinking? | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 11:12:01 AM | I sympathize with JayX. This incident was a tragedy all around. I think leaving these majestic cats in their original habitat will guarantee that the species will disappear entirely: pretending we can protect them from poachers in Asia is unrealistic - we can't even stop it here in North America. Zoos have been important in bringing us in touch with these creatures: it is only through them that most of us will ever see a tiger or elephant or polar bear in real life. If there were no zoos, would either JayX or I feel the same way about them.
Perhaps this entire incident would have been avoided if the wall had been one foot instead of three, and if there had been a 6 foot moat instead of a 12 foot one. Then maybe those boys would have had their drunken rowdiness tempered by an instinctive respect for that animal, so powerful and so close. | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 12:05:48 PM | Look.... these kids may have been acting like jackasses... stoned...drunk...whatever...My problem is.... HOW IN THE HELL WAS THIS TIGER ABLE TO GET OUT!!!!....find that out!!....and then you can point fingers!! If the Zoo's cannot keep the animals safe... or the public safe.... then it's time to do away with the Zoo's!!!
REALITY: it does NOT matter how the tiger got out. the ONLY thing that matters is that three worthless pieces of shyt caused a tiger to be killed for no reason. the two punks that aren't dead should be | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 12:19:19 PM | Perhaps the SF Zoo should reconsider admitting people who are intoxicated to view the animals in the first place.
In any event, this does not change my point of view that had the tiger's enclosure been adequately secure, the tiger would not have been able to escape.
Those boys did not deserve to be attacked and one killed even if they were drunk and taunting the tiger.
In my opinion the SF Zoo should be fined and closed indefinitely until all the animal enclosures are brought up to code and it is safe for the public to view the animals.
BTW there has been additional incidents since the attack.
Two more animal incidents at San Francisco Zoo
Snow Leopard Attempts Escape At SF Zoo
updated 8:45 p.m. ET, Tues., Jan. 15, 2008 SAN FRANCISCO - Since a tiger escaped its pen and killed a person, a snow leopard has ripped a small opening in its wire cage and workers have had to dart a polar bear to goad it into its night enclosure, San Francisco Zoo officials said Friday.
A nearly 100-pound snow leopard managed to rip a 4-inch hole in its wire mesh cage Thursday afternoon and got part of its head and paw out, zoo officials said. The zookeeper could have been harmed if she had not secured the cage, but visitors were never threatened because the cage was in a larger, secured enclosure, zoo spokesman Sam Singer said.
"Even if (the leopard) had escaped, he would have been in another cage so he would never have come in contact with the public," Singer said.
Last week, employees used darts to goad an obstinate polar bear into its night enclosure so that employees could work to raise the height of the walls there, zoo spokeswoman Lora LaMarca said. The bear never reached a height that would have allowed it to leave, she said.
Singer called the incident a "minor breach" and said the bear was not trying to escape. He denied the wall was raised because of the Jan. 3 incident.
Disclosure of the incidents comes after a 250-pound tiger escaped from its pen and attacked three zoo visitors on Christmas Day. Zoo officials have said the tiger likely climbed over a wall surrounding its enclosure that measured 12 1/2 feet — 4 feet lower than nationally recommended standards — after it was provoked.
Carlos Sousa Jr., 17, was killed in the Dec. 25 attack and his two friends were severely injured.
Zoo director Manuel Mollinedo said the leopard had been moved from the feline conservation area so workers could do maintenance there.
"At no point was there any danger to the public. This was a double containment area," Mollinedo said.
The Association of Zoos and Aquariums, which accredits zoos throughout the United States, will send a three-person inspection team to San Francisco later this month, association spokesman Steve Feldman said.
"They'll be looking at the specifics of recent incidents, as well as the big-cat program in particular," Feldman said.
Mollinedo made his remarks during the first of several hearings at City Hall examining the tiger attack and ways to improve safety.
"Like you, I am committed to finding answer to make sure this type of accident does not happen again," Mollinedo said.
Dozens of zoo supporters and critics packed the hearing room to give public testimony. Most voiced support for the zoo, but many called for a change in management and asked Mollinedo to resign.
At the end of the meeting, the commissioners asked zoo officials to prepare a plan to improve security and emergency response, and ordered the city controller to audit the zoo's finances and performance.
Meanwhile, in a courtroom across the street from City Hall hearings, lawyers for the city and the surviving victims — Paul Dahliwal and Kulbir Dahliwal — appeared before a judge regarding items taken from the scene of the attack and from the brothers' car.
City officials believe that the items, including cell phones and clothing, could offer proof they were intoxicated and threw objects into the tiger enclosure shortly before the attacks, according to documents filed Thursday in San Francisco Superior Court.
The victims' lawyer insists the men did not taunt the tiger.
At the hearing Friday, a judge granted a request by the victims' attorney to move the case to Santa Clara County, where the brothers live. A hearing is scheduled for later this month. | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 12:39:52 PM | Hmmm...
Ya know, after reading the majority of the responses here, I can't help but think that, if we change the story JUST a little, how feelings might change.
First, let's say that rather than being drunk teenagers, prone to yell and wave at tigers, these were, oh, I don't know, 8 or 9 year olds, also prone to yell and wave at tigers.
Now, let's say that, while these cute, innocent 8 or 9 year olds were yelling and waving at tigers, supposedly safe and secure behind a fence at a zoo, as would reasonably be expected, the tiger managed to escape from the fence and gobble up a couple of those cute, innocent 8 or 9 year olds.
Would all of you be holding those kids accountable or the zoo?
The responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of the zoo officials who failed to follow designated codes and recommendations. Blaming the VICTIMS, and mocking their families, is ridiculous, no matter how you feel about the fate of the tiger. | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 12:54:53 PM | >>>However, the zoo was built in the 1940's and with no problems before.... I can't say that they should have had reasonable knowledge that the tiger could get out. Why would they?
But the zoo ignored its own industry standards as set out by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums,which it agreed to become a part of, to a point of either lying about its enclosure status or being ignorant of it- not to mention they had issues with the Tiger a year prior should have been many red flags that were ignored.
>>>But, again, it was never an issue, and they were never told or recommended to change it.
I dunno if they told the media a lie or the AZA a lie, but previously they said it was 18 feet tall when it was found to be 12 feet tall.....
Furthermore, if there was nothing wrong, why following that attack was the lion pen closed for 10 months?
>>>There was no reason to.
Heh- tell that to the victims, which so many people on this forum are willing to condemn for situations that were beyond their control- people are so willing to blame the victims because the enclosure wasn't deep enough- clearly it must be their fault.....
>>>it like someone from the Jackass movie getting killed in an accident, should we feel sorry for them, too?
Are you comparing some people who get stoned and throw pine cones at animals from a supposively safe distance to people who put raw meat in their underwear and swim in gator infested waters?
Seriously people, its asinine to blame the victims- they didn't build the enclosure- they didn't know the animal had a history of attacking people- they didn't know the enclosure wasn't up to the industry standards. That was the zoo. They may have been total ***holes, but that doesn't mean they should be killed- the zoo failed to keep the humans and animals safe, and now completely preventable deaths have occurred.
Sorry if I'm being a douche, but I find it infuriating that people blame the victims because the zoo refused to uphold safety standards. | |
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| Save the tiger Posted: 1/19/2008 1:12:00 PM | The tigers cage was four feet shorter than required by the Associaion of Zoos and Aquaria. It's entirely the zoo's fault.
I sympathize with the "animals should be free" sentiment, but sadly that would spell certain extinction for most animals most notably tigers. There are, sorry, were, 7 species of tigers and in the last 20 years one of them has gone extinct. Zoos say they can keep three species alive, they simply don't have the resources for more, so in your lifetime two more species of tiger will go extinct - and there's not a goddamn thing anybody can or will do about it. Extinctoin, as they say, is forever.
Can you imagine some time in the future saying to your kids "This is a picture of a tiger. They all died out in Granpas time, but he actually saw one once". There's something very special about kids actually SEEING a real tiger from a few tens of feet away.
------------- http://www.worldwildlife.org/tigers/overview.cfm
Recognized throughout the world for its ferocity and unmistakable beauty, the tiger faces an uncertain future. Due to increases in both natural and human threats, the wild tiger population suffered major losses during the 20th century and has become one of our most endangered species. By the 1950s, tigers living around the Caspian Sea were extinct; between 1937 and 1972 the population of tigers that once inhabited the islands of Bali and Java disappeared; the South China tiger has not been seen in the wild for more than 25 years, and is possibly extinct.
India today has the largest number of tigers, numbering somewhere between 2,500 and 3,750. However, the Indian government is expected to release new numbers in the coming year. Worldwide it is estimated only 5,000 to 7,000 individual tigers now remain in the wild. These remaining tigers are threatened by many factors, including growing human populations, loss of habitat, illegal hunting of tigers and their prey, and expanded trade in tiger parts used for traditional medicines. -------------
http://www.savethetigerfund.org/Content/NavigationMenu2/Initiatives/CATT/CATTIndex/default.htm
Number of wild tigers in Asia in 1800: 100,000
Number of wild tigers in 2005: 5,000 or less
Number of Asian countries with confirmed wild tigers: 14
Number of countries with tiger populations over 500: 2
Number of tigers in accredited zoos worldwide: less than 1,000
Number of tigers in farms, safari parks & private menageries: more than 15,000
Number of wild tiger subspecies in 1950: 9
Number of wild tiger subspecies in 2005: 6
Year international trade in all tigers banned: 1987
Number of countries signatory to ban: 169
Year China banned trade in tiger-bone medicines: 1993
Number units of tiger-bone medicines traded annually before ban: >27 million
Price buyers willing to pay for tiger pelt in China: $10,000
Average per capita income in country (India) with largest tiger population: $524
Number of tiger skins seized since 1999: ~260
Number of kilograms of tiger bone seized in illegal trade since 2000: ~566
Average number of kilograms of bone per tiger (minus skull): 12
Percentage of Shanghai residents in 1998 survey aware that the tiger is an endangered species: 88
Percentage of Shanghai residents in 1998 survey who would use tiger bone: 51.6
Known number of tigers killed in India from 1994-2003: 684 -------------
As for zoos being cruel, yo have to understand there's a slow but real chnage in the way zoos work. 50 years ago animals were kept in small cages and many, frankly, became psychotic. Image being a human in a small cage and every day the only animal you feared came to look at you in droves. Try living your whole life like that. Captive breeding was nonexistant.
The man that changed all this was Gerald Durrell a mad-as-a-hatter (very!) hard drinking Englishman whose epic tales of collecting in Africa (mostly in Cameroon, where the king came to regard him as his favorite person on earth as one of the few people that could keep up with his love of drink, dance and women) make for insanenly great reading.
Durrell started his own zoo when he realized modern zoos were about the worst thing imaginable and failing to get permission for anywhere in England he settled on the Island of Jersey off the British coast.
There were no small cages, rather replicas of their natural environments. Animals began breeding as he, even 5 years ago realized the animals he loved to much were becomeing extinct.
All modern zoos tend toward his ideas now, eventually as they can afford it, they will all be this was; the Berlin Zoo and the Toronto zoo were among the first in the 1970s.
Boycotting zoos will not help the animals, it will speed their extinction. Circuses though are as bad, if not worse, than you think. | |
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| Save the tiger Posted: 1/19/2008 1:18:00 PM | I thought discovery channel was to replace zoos' s | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 1:22:42 PM |
Now, let's say that, while these cute, innocent 8 or 9 year olds were yelling and waving at tigers, supposedly safe and secure behind a fence at a zoo, as would reasonably be expected, the tiger managed to escape from the fence and gobble up a couple of those cute, innocent 8 or 9 year olds.
Sure, the zoo would be at fault. So would the parents of the 8 or 9 year olds who either allowed them to be doing this, or who left them unsupervised.
There are two responsible parties for this. The zoo is at fault for not following safety protocols. However, if the twits hadn't behaved like that, they would all still be alive today. I understand the tiger had to be killed to prevent further tragedy, but it is unfortunate, because it was just being a tiger. | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 6:47:43 PM | | " REALITY: it does NOT matter how the tiger got out. the ONLY thing that matters is that three worthless pieces of shyt caused a tiger to be killed for no reason......." Would you be saying this... if one of these three.....were your son????? | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/19/2008 7:59:15 PM |
The great thing about big cats is how well they thin out the gene pool.
Maybe they should be up for a Darwin award:
" Named in honor of Charles Darwin, the father of evolution, the Darwin Awards commemorate those who improve our gene pool by removing themselves from it."
Obviously they were lacking the intelligence to understand that pissing off an animal that could eat you for breakfast isn't a good idea. | |
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| Tiger attack victim was drinking, admitted taunting Posted: 1/20/2008 7:41:56 AM | Ok... after reading all of the comments, I have a recurring thought.
Where is the education of respecting the animals when visiting a zoo.
Are parents so ignorant as to let the children tease the animals and let them do whatever they want??? What kind of parents are they???
Also, what kind of young adult does not understand the respect of any creature realy.
WE, I mean the human race, are mostly responsible for all the mess we caused in our environment...
I hope the law of natural selection comes in full force. We need to cull our own race.
I realize I sound harsh, but I come from a family that has been around animals all my life and they, (the animals, whatever species), have more respect for each other and other species that we do.
I cannot believe that zoo keepers that are supposed to take care of the animals, let the human animals abuse those animals held in custody who have no voice or say in the matter... It appals me...
Anyway... Walking out of this thread shaking my head in disbelief....
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