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| This idiot is dangerous
Posted: 1/27/2008 7:39:38 PM | Late: I believe that those "briefings" at the White House are a courtesy only. I am a Christian, a Republican, an evangelical, and an American. I do not follow John Hagee. I think he is a crackpot.
If you were to find out how many people have courtesy visits to the White House, you would be stunned. It is a common way for the Administration to reward loyal supporters. Both parties do it. It does not mean that the President is taking these people's advice per se.
Don't let the fact that someone has some one-time visit to the White House make you believe that the Administration is doing anything more than humoring him. I seriously doubt that the Administration is basing foreign policy on Biblical prophecy--especially John Hagee's interpretation. Remember, the President is a Methodist.
As far as those who were eager to go to war, Wolfowitz is a Jew. He's not an evangelical Christian. The so-called "neo-cons" are not evangelical Christians who want to bring about the return of Christ. They want to beat the terrorists. John Hagee is irrelevant and does not factor into their decisions. Don't look for conspiracies where there are none!
I only used the analogy that I could bring peace to the Middle East because I couldn't think of anything else to say. I was going to say that John Hagee can no more do anything to bring about the return of Jesus Christ than I can turn into a dolphin. That takes the politics out of it!
The one thing I will say about Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney is that they are former governors. The last Senator to be elected president was Kennedy in 1960. I believe that one of the former governors, statistically, stands the best chance of being elected since McCain, Hillary, Obama, and Edwards are all Senators. Guiliani isn't doing well at all so I don't know what to think about him. I am not thrilled about any of them. I think religion will be an issue for both o Huckabee and Romney. Huckabee is too evangelical, and Romney's Mormonism scares a lot of people.
As far as changing the Constitution goes, that requires a super-majority of both houses of Congress and a super-majority of the state legislatures. It is not going to be done to accomodate Huckabee's religious beliefs. It is very, very difficult to do. It can take up to ten years. By then he would be out of office. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 51 | |
| This idiot is dangerous
Posted: 1/27/2008 8:12:48 PM | If the Evolutionist Lobby
The what?
Pro-Abortion Lobby
"pro-abortion" lobby?
Who would that be, aside from a non sequitor?
Feminist Lobby
And what people are these lobbies advocating the oppression, invasion, and destruction of?
For you this seems to be a freedom of expression issue, ...where have I said they should be silenced? I haven't = this is a red herring.
Compared to the damage being done to the cause of world peace, ...I don't care as much what Americans allow themselves to lose by putting their faith in faith based government, really.
The western view of the issues in that region are already filtered through Yigal Carmon's l'il "memri" lapse propaganda machine, both media and the administration. The money involved here promoting this suffering is immeasureable.
What is in place to counter it?
Nothing.
On the contrary, all of them, CUPC, Hagee and his gang, AIPAC, CAMERA, MEMRI, et al, should have the spotlight on them, and they should be given ALL the attention they can get, ...so the truth of their deceit, destruction and oppression are exposed.
The so-called "neo-cons" are not evangelical Christians who want to bring about the return of Christ. They want to beat the terrorists.
What? "beat" terrorism? They've been the single biggest promoter of terrorism in history. You seem to have not read what I wrote, I said nothing of conspiracy, so you can dispense with that particular poisoning of the well, ..I specifically said "PARALLEL AIMS".
The neoconservative movement doesn't NEED to support Hagee and his ilk, he already supports their efforts both tacitly and explicitly, and both are good friends of the Likud party. | |
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| This idiot is dangerous
Posted: 1/27/2008 9:12:43 PM |
For you this seems to be a freedom of expression issue, ...where have I said they should be silenced? I haven't = this is a red herring. I don't see this as an issue of "freedom of expression" but an issue of "respect of belief", in that certain people would LIKE to have them silenced, or ridiculed. You can't find the truth by ridicule. You can only make cartoons by ridicule. Private Eye has been ridiculing the government for years, and the main result is that it is a piece of humour. It keeps getting sued, and loses a lot of its cases. But it makes money, so it keeps the journalists who work there in employment. But it doesn't change anything.
The western view of the issues in that region are already filtered through Yigal Carmon's l'il "memri" lapse propaganda machine, both media and the administration. The money involved here promoting this suffering is immeasureable. Unless you personally know that most people have heard of Yigal Carmon, it would be difficult to claim that, especially as the media in the UK keeps representing the Jews in Israel as being the perpetrators of injustice and have for many years used footage from the 70s and claimed that it happened yesterday.
On the contrary, all of them, CUPC, Hagee and his gang, AIPAC, CAMERA, MEMRI, et al, should have the spotlight on them, and they should be given ALL the attention they can get, ...so the truth of their deceit, destruction and oppression are exposed. If they are given a fair and honest view, without anyone trying to pick everything they say apart, then they will become complacent, say what they really think, and the truth will be exposed. However, if reports try to show them claiming deceit, destruction and oppression, then they will become guarded and it will be impossible for anyone to expose the truth. Sadly, most news reports that I see, tend to have the opinions of the reporters shoved into the reports all the time, and that puts the people being interviewed and reported about on their guard, and so they are very careful to only say things that have been filtered through the PR machine. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 53 | |
| This idiot is dangerous
Posted: 1/27/2008 9:31:01 PM | Unless you personally know that most people have heard of Yigal Carmon, it would be difficult to claim that, especially as the media in the UK keeps representing the Jews in Israel as being the perpetrators of injustice and have for many years used footage from the 70s and claimed that it happened yesterday.
Who needs footage, the print media in the UK gets it right, they are aware there are two peoples involved and that one is an occupying invader, and the other is an oppressed people. But, that isn't the topic of this thread either. If you want to debate this one, go find it in the Politics forum, CAMERA, MEMRI, AIPAC have been well exposed for what they are by those who have dug deep and provided cites and proofs.
BTW, MEMRI is not a UK based organization, it is a US based org. founded by Carmon, an ex Mossad officer and the wife (also an Israeli) of neoconservative David Wormser, ....do a little research on our Mr. Wurmser.
MEMRI claim to provide unbiased translations and "in depth" analysis on Farsi and Arabic data from the region.... do a little digging there to see for yourself how this claim holds up, still, ...not a part of the OP unless you understand Hagee and his followers support for David Wurmser, et al.
This thread has a topic, it's in the OP, the issue isn't the validity of Israel, it's the ideals behind one of the USA's most powerful lobbies that supports Israels illegal occupation, settlement, and oppression in Palestine in order to satisfy the precursers to the end of the World.
If you're comfortable with that, fine, argue your support for this madness, otherwise please stop trying to hijack the thread topic. | |
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| This idiot is dangerous
Posted: 1/28/2008 3:06:54 AM | Hagee claims that Jesus didn't come back to save the Jews. He claims that Jews are "the chosen people". You don't even need to talk to them about Jesus, because they already have the ticket to heaven. This is heresy.
He IS dangerous. | |
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| This idiot is dangerous
Posted: 1/28/2008 8:29:50 AM | Late: I didn't mean to poison the well. I did not notice that you said parallel aims. My only excuse is that I have been quite ill for the last two months.
I did a little research on Hagee. I still contend that the man is a pompous name-dropper who glories in pretending that he is taken seriously by those in power.
The essential prophecy for the end is: "When you see JERUSALEM surrounded by armies, know that the end is nigh" (Luke 21:20). I don't see that invading Afghanistan or Iraq fulfills that prophecy.
John Hagee started Christians United for Israel and intends to make sure that all 435 U.S. Representatives and all 100 Senators are bombarded with his agenda. Are they all going to accomodate him and vote the way he wants? No!
Last summer I worked in the law office of my state senator who also happens to be the Democratic Majority Floor Leader in the New Mexico Senate. We got a lot of political calls for the Senator and had some meetings about political issues.
Some people called the Senator with their ideas and bugged him constantly. Their ideas were out-of-mainstream and not something he would ever support. One example was one man wanted all artificial sweetners banned in the State of New Mexico. It's not going to happen.
My point is that a politician will listen to a constituent so that person feels that he has a voice in government. If there is no real backing for that constituent's position and if it is a wacky position to begin with, the politician will not support it when it comes time to vote on the issues. The constituent can, however, go to his group and say, "I had a meeting with Senator X, and we talked out the issues important to our agenda."
I believe this is the kind of treatment John Hagee is getting. He does NOT represent 30 million evangelical Christians. His books are full of false prophecies. According to Scripture, ONE false prophecy proves that God is not using that man as His prophet! John Hagee has been discredited if we evaluate him according to scriptural standards. The man is a crackpot. He is humored and nothing more. | |
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| This idiot is dangerous
Posted: 1/28/2008 8:42:33 AM | GWB isn't exactly evangelical himself, is he? He can acknowledge them all he wants...this country was founded on SOME Christian principles but NOT all. It goes much deeper than that!
Whoever does make it in is sure to be a puppet in any case... | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 57 | |
| This idiot is dangerous
Posted: 1/28/2008 11:19:57 AM | Whoever does make it in is sure to be a puppet in any case...
Fine, if this is the case, than what you have in regards to the Christian Right lobby's lunatic fringe (a substantial one in numbers both votes, and more importantly $$$$) that has a real influence in the larger picture, of what is probably the largest collective lobby on Capital Hill, and if you think they are harmless?
Collectively, they've managed to be responsible for 2,000,000+ deaths on foreign soil in less than 7 years, ...and they aren't sated yet, and the lunatic fringe is pushing for more than just the status quo of oppression, suffering, and death that is the current situation in Israel/Palestine.
Dangerous? Yes
Idiot? questionable, definitely delusional
Harmless?
That is what we really don't want to find out, is it?
It's Not Only the Israel Lobby
Other Interests Benefit from the Chaos
by Jon Basil Utley
The new, public debate about the Israel lobby is missing a major point – the lobby's allies, the many other interests in America that want chaos in the Middle East. For example, in the Walt-Mearsheimer book there is no listing in the index for "military-industrial complex." For all its vaunted power, the Israel lobby could not dominate America's Mideast policies without cover and active support from other powerful groups. Although AIPAC promotes the lobby's image in Congress as being all powerful, it isn't.
The book does specify Christian Zionists as an integral part of the lobby, but it neglects many others.
Another important question is how, when polling data shows that most Jews opposed the Iraq war, did the Likud/settler minority faction take over the whole Israel lobby? Although a minority with an agenda will often win over an amorphous majority, that is not a sufficient explanation. Indeed Jews are at the forefront of the fight against the war and the consequent encroaching police state here in America. Some of the most honest reporting on Israel comes from Jewish media: Ha'aretz in Israel and The Forward in America. What happened?
It was Likudniks headquartered at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington who first undermined the Oslo Peace Accords. They also urged attacking Iraq long before 9/11. Some, such as David Wurmser, even predicted that the attack could result in Iraq being "ripped apart," splintered into warring tribes for years. Polls show that most Israelis also want peace and support a Palestinian state (in fact, they voted out Likud); meanwhile, the Likudniks want America to attack Iran and Syria. They appeal to those who see a greater Israel "from the Nile to the Euphrates."
America's Armageddonites
by Jon Basil Utley
The overwhelming power and warmongering of the Armageddonites has inspired some resistance from other fundamentalists, but they are a minority. Theologian Richard Fenn writes, "Silent complicity (by mainline churches) with apocalyptic rhetoric soon becomes collusion with plans for religiously inspired genocide." Their death-wishing "religion" is actually anti-Christian and should be challenged openly by traditional Christians.
Where is the "traditional" Christian Lobby, ...who should at least be vocally opposing what is being said and done in their name?
Bueller?
Israel and the Apocalypse
Huckabee’s advocacy of forcibly transferring the Palestinians to other Arab nations reflects his close association with some of America’s most prominent End Times theological proponents. Among Huckabee’s leading evangelical backers is Pastor John Hagee, head of a Pentecostal congregation in San Antonio, Texas, with 18,000 members, and the executive director of Christians United for Israel, a national lobbying group that organizes against a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestine crisis and in favor of a military strike on Iran.
Hagee’s zealous support for Israel is kindled by his belief that Jesus will one day return to “biblical Israel” to usher in a kingdom of Heaven on Earth. “As soon as Jesus sits on his throne he’s gonna rule the world with a rod of iron,” Hagee told his congregation in a sermon this December. “That means he’s gonna make the ACLU do what he wants them to. That means you’re not gonna have to ask if you can pray in public school…. We will live by the law of God and no other law.”
Huckabee made a pilgrimage to Hagee’s Cornerstone Church just one week after the pastor’s anti-ACLU jeremiad. During the first of two sermons Huckabee delivered there, he was greeted with a thunderous standing ovation. The candidate returned the sentiment, hailing his gracious host, Hagee, as “one of the great Christian leaders of our nation.”
Huckabee has also welcomed the endorsement of Tim LaHaye, the co-author of the bestselling Left Behind pulp fiction series, which tells of the coming apocalyptic battle between followers of Jesus and forces of Satan. Paige Patterson, president of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, where Huckabee once studied (he dropped out to work for a televangelist), is an outspoken believer in End Times theology as well. Patterson is one of the chief organizers of the right-wing takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention.
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| This idiot is dangerous
Posted: 1/31/2008 8:01:25 AM |
It's one thing to embrace and espouse a belief system,yet quite another to try to impose it on the world political scene.
Sorry...I thought that WAS the purpose of religion..... | |
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| This idiot is dangerous
Posted: 2/5/2008 2:19:40 PM | | by the way as far as i know GWB is a christane, and alot of the christane faith is part of the law, beside a few. If do not agree with these law, well then it would be ok to muder, rape, steel. Were do you think thoses laws came from, ummmmm (BIBLE) to give you a hint. | |
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| This idiot is dangerous
Posted: 2/7/2008 5:56:43 AM |
No, not wrong. Your numbers are not per-capita numbers.
And, I am not wrong in my statement concerning separation of church and state. Your own post verifies that.
lol, buddy, percentages of an entire population are already 'per capita'.
And really, who cares about how many guns we have per captia? USA -- 5.7 murders per 100,000 people in 2006 = 0.0057%, Canada -- 2.04 murders per 100,000 people in 2005.
You'd think with such a high percentage of christians in the US that the crime and murder rates would be a lot lower, guess not. Or maybe that a country with a relatively high percentage of athiests such as Canada would have much higher murder percentages... but no. It's an entire motive for murder and hate completely off the list when religion is out of the picture. | |
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| This idiot is dangerous
Posted: 2/7/2008 6:43:41 AM | I was watching the tube one night, and stumbled upon this little fat guy telling the crowd that America is the Army for Christ. With that I understood that this man has a problem with his principles. As a matter of fact, if every religion lived up to there principles then there would be world peace. Unfortunately we get sided with Hagee, Huckabee, every Muslim cleric, zionist, and on and on. You got a religious NUT CASE in the white house that said G-d told him to invade Iraq. At that point America should have impeached him for his mental illness. But the right wing religious morons couldn't bring themselves to understand that you should "Love your Enemies" as there doctorine states. You should not judge as your doctorine states, and do not kill as there doctorine states. So is he a real Christian or a false flag for the Christian Lobbyist who would love to Christianize the World as the Catholics Christianized Europe till they escaped to the Americas.
What we got to understand is that these morons "WANT" and Armegeddon, they want to force the hand of G-d and then Jeeeee-sus will return. This is what this little turd Hagee WANTS so that the people will bow down to his spiritual knowledge, he's one of the Pharisees that Christ could not stand. If he keeps crying wolf long enough the masses will ignore him until National Enquirer finds him with a hooker. All these clowns have gone down the same path. Unfortunately there are millions of people who want this Armegeddon to happen. Thats so unfortunate.
Gee does Canada have a high percentage of Atheist. Please!!! | |
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