| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/22/2008 10:27:30 PM | lol, Garden nut. You said his words elicited sweetly erotic images?
I thought "vampire" "body parts in the fridge"
HAHAHAHAHHAHAH | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/22/2008 11:20:05 PM | Kudos to Porpose in msg 36!! Your thinking is crystal clear.
Personally, I have been doing a heck of a lot of work around passing through my fears. I won't be hyper vigilant - I love the ride of a brand spanking new relationship, but I will always do my due diligence. | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/22/2008 11:32:09 PM | Wouldn't even work for me. I don't repeat mistakes. Every new relationship is its own set, lol! But I must be learning something: they keep getting better and better. . . .
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 12:19:27 AM | gardennut, good thread. From your post msg 21:
In a sense, trusting someone in a relationship does involve a touch of insanity, doesn't it? One can never know for certain that someone is trustworthy; that they will remain faithful; that they will remain good to us; that they will simply remain.
That leap of faith requires a touch of insanity, but without it, how could we commit to someone?
Very well put!
I was going to cavil a bit with your OP since I felt (and feel) that "hyper-vigilance" is just a pale euphemism for "unprovoked untrustworthiness". But you've fleshed it out more in this post.
Loving relationships are about feelings, obviously. We try to protect our hearts from vulnerability and from a possible break by holding back, with a reliance on logic and a kind of "legalistic" sleuthing, but all this does is (ironically) impede any chance for a relationship to even begin. I've been the one who's been initially untrusting, and been on the receiving end of it, as well, and can easily say that it's a recipe for any relationship to die on the vine. Enough challenges and problems naturally occur in the course of any relationship, but when you start out with a closed heart, with needless suspicion .... well, the other is justifiably going to clam up, too.
I find it slightly puzzling that so many of us applaud our own efforts at boldly going forth with new adventures of the spirit -- career; physical activity; passionate hobbies; travel; new skills --- yet are similarly somehow proud of our holding back on relationship initiative, as if it's a badge of honor to "protect" ourselves from hurt even when doing so in OTHER areas of our lives is universally acknowledged as being timid or defeatist.
Herding Cats in msg 23:
I'm not fearful at all.
My problem is apathy. I just don't care enough to bother with it all.
In my own experience, apathy results from long-running, consistent, low-grade, exhausted fear. | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 3:20:42 AM | | I think for those who have been burned in the past, it is natural to try and see the possible similarities in the people we meet in the present. But the problem is if we judge people only on the basis of their flaws, I think very quickly you will find you have no-one to date, as no-one is perfect and there isn't any person who has made some mistakes at some point. I would not date someone who only saw me in terms of 'red flags' or failures, because if a person judges you like that now, they will probably do so in the future, and if you are only always being negatively criticised in a relationship, it is basically hell. I would leave that person to work out their own issues, and work on mine, and just go out with someone who is happy with me as I am and who I am happy with for who they are. | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 5:32:05 AM | I have this poem on my profile because it serves as a reminder for me...
Your task is not to seek for love,
but merely to seek and find
all the barriers within yourself
that you have built against it.
Rumi | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 5:49:53 AM | Your task is not to seek for love,
but merely to seek and find
all the barriers within yourself
that you have built against it.
I went to my computer this morning to check this thread, and what wisdom and beauty I have found waiting for me! Margo, I am going to put these words by my desk as a reminder to consciously work on those barriers.
In my own experience, apathy results from long-running, consistent, low-grade, exhausted fear.
Rory, there is such insight in these words. That is where I was when I met my partner: an apathy resulting from this "exhausted fear". Of course, it is for this precise reason that our relationship had such a rocky start.
You don't appear to be too apologetic or understanding that your own insecurities almost ruined your relationship.
It sounds like you were lucky enough to find a person that wouldn't just say "later for this" and left you for greener pastures.
Ah, believe me, I am apologetic, and I do very well understand how my own insecurities almost ruined my relationship.
I have my partner's permission to relate that he has his own hyper-vigilance, and he continues to struggle with certain issues. I have been as patient and understanding with him as he has been with me. We are both works in progress. Fortunately we have the uncanny ability to "read" each other, and we have the communication tools to problem-solve anything that we have encountered thus far.
Thanks to those who have contributed their gems of wisdom and experience to this thread.
...........and thanks to those who have infused the thread with humour (Ignoble and Bethlett, you are very naughty...........)
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 7:02:31 AM | | The important thing is balance. Being paranoid is never good, but ignoring "fatal flaws" that you can't handle or don't want to deal with out of a fear of being single isn't any better. | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 7:09:32 AM | Gardenut... same here, definitely concur... I always have to hit on that very pretty, and intelligent Bethlett! Just can't help myself and it's a good thing we are in opposite corners of the USA or she would drive me insaner!
Also, thanks Rune for pointing out that I had misread your post...it was very late and I was having problems just thinking...not a good time to do taxes!..mistakes definitely do creep in!
I have definitely enjoyed this thread as it gives me a name to put on the characteristic that seems to be a pattern in meeting new people. Being so fully aware of what it is and that it can, will, and does happen...and probably will happen again.. I know that my next search is to find the way to overcome this. So, maybe we need the ladies to answer that question for us guys. From a selling stand point it would be logical that I should study the five steps to a successful sale. I may have to get out some old books to read up on that. For one thing, gaining confidence and trust is a huge upfront factor. It seems that where many of us are dropping the ball and failing is in closing the deal prior to the initial face to face meeting. | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 9:12:03 AM | One gal talks about her own self-effacing apathy as if it was a virtue instead of the self destructive choice she admits as her major personal flaw. So many people want to be happy but are just waiting for God to deliver the big lottery winner when they will not even buy a ticket to be able to win.
Don't make assumptions about me, it's a bad idea because you will usually be wrong.
I sure as hell don't see apathy as a virtue. It's a vice of mine that I wouldn't mind overcoming but I don't care enough right now to make the effort. I date VERY infrequently and am not hurting anyone as I pull apart my attitude and examine it to see where it's coming from. And waiting for God to deliver? Please. I'm not a believer in God and prayers. If I want something, I go and get it — Relying on deities is not my style.
I make my own luck and at this point in my life I have other priorities I prefer to expend my energy on than the never ending search for "the one". End of story. | |
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zom
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Joined: 1/19/2008
Msg: 61 | |
| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 9:19:56 AM | It's fear. You can get fancy with it and busy yourself with extravagant rationalizations, theories, plots and other wordy pursuits. In the end the simple fact remains that fear is at work. It might be helpful to ask about what exactly seems to be the worst of the threats, or by what experience did fear take a hold.
Fear of other people
Fear of your own emotions
Fear of becoming so enslaved in passion by an expert lover that forever after no other mortal man could possibly come close to satisfying you
There are lots of different ways to say the same basic fear. | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 10:19:50 AM | The only things I'm all that wary of is serious threats to my physical or fiscal safety.
That doesn't mean I date stupidly! But I understand and accept the inherent risks.
I feel so bad for those who have been so hurt that they are frozen in fear. I realize that I can't possibly relate to the hell of divorce...and I certainly wouldn't wish the hell of having your spouse unexpectedly die, on even my worst enemy.
But there are so many here, both online and real world encounters who have redflag glasses just absolutely GLUED to their heads...how the hell do you LIVE like that??
Cindy O | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 12:32:50 PM |
Fear of becoming so enslaved in passion by an expert lover that forever after no other mortal man could possibly come close to satisfying you.
Yup, that pretty much caps my current situation.
Dang, honey, couldn't you have been lousier in bed?   | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 1:14:30 PM | @Herding Cats
I liked your post, especially this
Relying on deities is not my style.
But the more relevant part is of course this:
I have other priorities I prefer to expend my energy on than the never ending search for "the one". And I'm sure that if you happen across someone who you click with, you'll have other priorities that you prefer to expend your energy on than the never ending search for something wrong with him.
We're all imperfect, it's the most loveable thing about us, isn't it? | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 1:29:47 PM | And I'm sure that if you happen across someone who you click with, you'll have other priorities that you prefer to expend your energy on than the never ending search for something wrong with him.
We're all imperfect, it's the most loveable thing about us, isn't it?
You're absolutely right. When I DO go forward with someone I ALWAYS go into it heart wide open and fully optimistic. Always. There has to have been/be something amazing about a man for me to have loved/love him. None of my experiences with men have changed that part about me no matter what has happened in my past.
I would never want someone perfect.
How boring.
But if they screw up in a way I have experience with from my past, it takes me less time to react/respond than it did before. And that's a good thing imho. | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 1:54:19 PM | Yes hyper-vigilance is something to be vigilant for... wait a sec, now I'm confused... 
Seriously though, I have talked myself out of a few potential relationships in the past because I was unable or unwilling to curb my mental extrapolations on our future. I'm pretty picky, and let's face it, according to POF standards, shallow, since I actually expect to date a slender and athletic woman (somehow the fact that I too am slender and athletic does not negate the "shallowness" of my preference...  ). Point being, I'm usually most concerned about three things when dating:
1) Negative personality quirks/baggage discovered down the road
2) Said date exhibiting tendencies to let themselves get too comfortable (i.e. starting to let themselves go)
3) Union of finances/household
Naturally item #1 is the most important to me, but item #2 isn't too far behind and I am hyper-vigilant for any leaning tendencies towards weight gain or the accumulation of self-destructive "vices" like smoking, alcohol abuse, gluttony, etc. for lack of anything better to do. I've seen plenty of my peers fall victim to it, and I for one am taking a stand against it.
I had gotten so bad at over-analyzing that I caught myself doing a 20 year forecast on a relationship by the 3rd-5th date, including the dreaded conversation "you aren't the woman I married, you're more like the woman that ATE the woman I married!"
Now I just try to sit back, relax, and remind myself not to think too far ahead as I haven't even won over the woman I'm dating yet, let alone married her... | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 2:14:40 PM | Random thoughts...
It is ironic that when we/people try to protect ourselves... we can end up getting in our own way and block good stuff from happening. Sometimes I've sat down to reflect on stuff after-the-fact and thought "dang, I couldn't have done a better job of this than if I had planned exactly how NOT to get what I want"... and set out and did exactly that.
When I was a teen and into my early twenties, my dad spent a fair amount of time talking about life, choices and belief. I think it was likely tinged with the knowledge that he was choosing to die (although he called it choosing how to live) and he was grabbing the face-time he hadn't had when I was younger.
One of the things he said was "anything in extreme is bad", challenging me to name one thing, that when taken to an extreme remained "good". I couldn't come up with anything... and somehow that "middle path" has been folded into my life as a way of being.
He also spent a lot of time talking about fear and belief: fear is senior to flaws as it is the source. He applied the Winston Churchill quote about fear to business and relationship. Paraphrased... Churchill said "take the bravest generals and sit them at a table together and the best you can get from them will be the sum total of their fears".
Dad's advice was to know your own fear and those of whoever you were in an intimate relationship with ... because that would always be the pointy end of the stick. But, he went on to caution about extremes... that if fear were all you saw, it would not give the space and light for creativity... so to also have faith and belief. Faith that good and bad things will happen, that people will have lightness and darkness... and belief that you will be enough to rise to meet the challenges that life is.
A wise fellow once told me: "If you're lookin' in the ditch, sooner or later that's where you're gonna end up."
Then again, the same guy also passed on an Okie novelist's secret to a great life....
“never play cards with a man named Doc,
never eat at a restaurant named Mom’s,
and never, ever sleep with someone
who has more problems than you do.”
It's fear. You can get fancy with it and busy yourself with extravagant rationalizations, theories, plots and other wordy pursuits.
Same wise fellow was speaking of this and asked me... "if you weren't being busy occupying yourself with all of this *stuff*... what else would you be doing with your time?" That was an Ah-ha! moment for me... to lighten up and have fun with it... rather than letting my fear run me. Somedays it works..lmao@me. | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 2:35:53 PM | I tend to walk into relationships with eyes wide open....I have no expectations and therefore never surpised by their outcomes...I focus on getting to know the person and to assess our compatability and differences (and whether or not the latter are deal-breakers).
Through our conversations, I learn his ideals, his preferences, his personality, his habits (good and bad) and what he expects as he follows his path in life. I watch how he treats and talks about other others; whether it's an x-wife, boss, "friends", neighbors or last girlfriend. I try to determine if he has future dreams and goals and whether or not he is happy with who he is. I keep an eye open on how he treats me as well as others in his life, including how he talks about his ex-wife, his children, his boss and other with whom he in involed. These are the things that allow me to get to know him. I may often ask questions of him and guage his responses. I often being up unrelated topics for discussion to learn how his mind words...and I am very aware of how he treats me....and I take what he says his feeling for me as truth until I suspect or he demonstrates otherwise... | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 2:48:30 PM | Hyper-Vigilance can actually drive one to a new equally 'bad' relationship.
When meeting a new partner it is very easy to be attracted simply because they are the opposite of what drove you mad about your last partner. If you went out with someone who is a pessimist and has a negative outlook, and you meet someone who is optimistic and positive you can be drawn simply because you are determined to avoid negativity..... thereby overlooking other traits that can go on to create problems. | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 3:23:47 PM | Bethlett
It is wonderfully entertaining but so Darned frightening reading posts too.
Bethlett first dear you have to get yourself together so that you might be able to separate Sh*t from shinola. Heck you have to throw away all the dysfunctional myth based nonsense and become a genuine honest person.
Do you all realize just how darned often we each lie in small ways and bigger?
If you are not too aware of how much we each lie cheat and withhold and mislead you are neither clearly honest honorable or genuine except by convenient standards of depravity you have for yourself below what you would want in others.
With honesty and humility you have some chance to detect honor character and honesty in others by all the errors and rules you have broken yourself. So dear simply stated you must accept the repeated patterns of failure from birth till now and then start developing a PLAN! You must humble yourself and find the truth or you may not ever get any chance for reliability and reproducibility in success in this and so much else.
Bethlett this is no darned different than success in anything else of substantial difficulty. Time, attention, hard work, humility, perseverance, diligence, bull dog tenacity... With these habits could one NOT succeed?
rune3 Your response is essentially correct in that you have to develop the COURAGE to subdue the FEAR. Unfortunately I get a different insight from your note about your MUM. It is really embarrassing that if we ask wise friends they pick up very quickly so much about defects in our dates. Have you ever thought about using a wise friend instead to give feedback? I think this would improve our selection. Instead you imply that you will just use the least reliable senses of humans, subjective ones of intuition and INSTINCT. Why not work on an objective way to success? Hell all the best in most every field do such mostly by OBJECTIVITY! Objectives are specifically defined things like stability, reliability, trustworthy, honesty not impulse intuition nor instinct.
You see my friends developing Honesty, Reliability, Judgment and all the other Character traits are not a goal of months and years. They are the accomplishment of decades and lifetimes by the refusal to bend and enjoy learning bad habits at any time in the long process. We all want the benefits of quality in others but few pay to be worthy of these gifts so they might actually inspire them. This I believe may be the meat of how we change to be worthy of a relationship or to change through communication toward not damaging others with our immature failures to grow. We make deals to try to change, improve and reform in relationship. this may help us to grow.
As far as Ladiesman 7 The more I have someone define what they want the more they tend to be unrealistic poorly focused and off based too in what could really work. That must be because we are SO misguided that in romance the very same things work that work in all other relationships. So often with men and women if you set up a date with a person with those ideal features they quickly know to then run away. Many even recognize and say "yes he had all my requirements but the Chemistry was not right." What a crock, always a convenient excuse, chemistry. As most everyone knows where there is outstanding chemistry there is an excellent player and horrible partner. Folks we make chemistry it does not make us!
Trialsize -- Be very careful you are suggesting you may be becoming a relationship wave surfer. This could suggest that bad habit will leave you making the same mistakes over and over so you never learn, grow nor get close to moving on to the promised land. If entertainment is the goal you will end up the jester in your own show.
Herding cats-- Dear, you are obviously quite intelligent and accomplished too. I want to present that you are wise and you should know we all also often play the fool too. If instead you wanted to state you were taking a short break to rest and become more focused and VIGILANT that could be respectable. When you do anything self-destructive like apathy to something important in our lives we are being self destructive. When we harm and damage ourselves we damage all others around us. I would thing adults would recognize the argument about suicide beyond the ME. Wisdom can make one conceited to the point one is foolish. Isn't that the sadness of the misuse of the tool.
I think it is time we addressed the common self programmed idea "I can live single and do not need a Man/Woman in my life!" We all after getting hurt get so good at convincing of ourselves of this half truth that we refuse to see the lie the wrong and the self-destructive basis of our foolishness. We can live without an apartment, car, friends,
money or even clothing. How wise would you seem if you told others these foolishnesses. These are all just tools and a wise man is not afraid to have nor use tools so he can do good for others and himself too. Many women and men have been so successful convincing themselves of that they do not need a mate that they will not even accept that they are poisoning the well water for themselves and others by proclaiming such erred material. It is almost as disgusting as the vile stuff of the skinheads. Shame on all for such selfish self indulgences!!
For those wise enough to read on Diligence is only a tool. Misusing it does not make the tool any less valuable it just shows the foolishness of that foolish USER.
How can we better discuss how to properly address using these valuable tools?
Its Margo-- I would be very concerned to present that trying to use tools is worse than surrendering to the emotion, impulse, intuition and instinct too. Is this the lessons you suggest teaching your children? This is a very damaging and destructive presentation for those who are looking for good advice. Why are so many happier to make entertainment points then to help all get to the truth for their best futures? There is a whole counter-cultural movement that is so dangerous when not applied constructively to address problems constructively. It is a big part of making convenient excuses for hard work carefulness and honor humility and humble respect for common sense. How far are we getting by such selfish foolishness?
tigerwoods0924--- Have you been so closed minded that you have no idea of the changes that are usual to the human body with aging? If you are that superficial then you will have no problem bludgeoning your mate into trying to keep her lean and fit till she kicks your foolish butt out taking half all your valuables and your children too. Either get real or expect to get real beaten up and real unhappy too.
ben
Ben Kohn | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 3:45:55 PM | The biggest flaw I see in being hyper vigilant is that the person is looking for similar behaviors they want to avoid that didn't work previously.
The ideal person for someone isn't necessarily the opposite of the other partners that didn't work out. I see it a lot in doing profile reviews, "I don't want.....". However you could have the opposite of what you didn't want, but that is not necessarily what will work.
It is good to avoid behaviors that we know we're not compatible with but just that alone does not ensure that partner would be the right one. | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 4:07:38 PM |
One person analogized dating to choosing cars where he was too interested in hormones and horsepower to recognize the common sense of a high quality high mileage vehicle compared to his surging loins?
Is english a second language for you? Your reading comprehension is appalling. | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 4:17:04 PM | Is english a second language for you? Your reading comprehension is appalling.
I think that he's just hyper-judgmental. | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 4:22:04 PM | "Is english a second language for you? Your reading comprehension is appalling."
Is this applicable to the topic? English class is that way....room 602. ------->
Manners class is full, you missed registration. Try next time. | |
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| hyper-vigilance in new relationships
Posted: 1/23/2008 4:29:52 PM | Dear Herding Cats; post #74
I can not stand more impressed by your response. IS it really that big an insult when others realize your pattern of self-destructiveness that they actually care enough to try to give you some insight and some advice too? Cat gal I would hope that getting pissed off may just get you to thinking about the much more pleasant alternatives to constipation and retardations too. Since English is my weapon par excellence you should check as these are too close to APATHY.
How do you like the entertainment now? | |
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