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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/26/2008 5:00:48 PM | | MPaul, Israel is actually required to supply Gaza with things. It is the occupying power. Don't tell me that Gaza is free. Gaza is not. It is not part of a country that is independent, has no trade policy, has no really freedom. Gaza is basically a large prison. Also, this is not about Jews. This is about the Israeli government and Hamas. Many Jews don't support the status quo or the Israeli government. Actually, most American Jews are not so interested in Israel's policies nor affiliate with them, so you are making too many assumptions when you say the Jews. Egypt was expected by Israel to build a wall, to do what it can to keep Gazans out. It is not like they were not doing what Israel wanted to some extent. However, it is hard for the Egyptians to watch Gazans starve and suffer. Granted, Hamas is not a good organization at all, but collective punishment is not a good thing. I think Israel should cede the border to both PA and Egyptian control, and Hamas should accept that in the border areas on both sides they will not control the border and FATAH would control it. | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/26/2008 6:30:20 PM | Seavoyage: no, of course I am not saying Gaza is free. It is an entrapped population. How much of that is self-imposed due to belligerence toward Israel, how much is due to Egyptian obstinance, how much is due to Israel, or to Israel's need for security, I don't know. But I don't see how the Gazans would be a security problem with Egypt. Whereas Islam and the Jews are inherently at odds due to Quranic verses (and some Old Testament ones too), Egypt and the Gazans have a common culture, and I cannot see why Egypt would not at least allow an open border. And I also cannot see how the international community and the media have been blasting only Israel on the likes of it's defensive wall. Israel's stance is understandably defensive. And Israel IS the provider of necessary amenities to Gaza.
Bottom line: the media propaganda and the UN-types have to get closer to reality. And the reality is that the Egypt-Gaza problem has been swept under the table, while opportunism and a desire for victimization has made only Israel the punching bag.
Granted, I am not an expert on the region. I am only reflecting what seems very obvious. | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/26/2008 8:41:43 PM | Mpaul, I appreciate that you are saying you are not an expert on the region. Things are not so, so obvious about the Israelis or the Arabs. Maybe to some observers it may seem that way. The Muslims and Jews do have problems and they are both using religion in different ways that they didn't use prior to the 20th century, which you must consider. Muslims are looking at Islam from a 20th-21st century. The Islam of today is not identical to that of the past, and I would say applies to Judaism. Yes, the Jewish people have the TANACH, the TORAH, but after the holocaust and the formation of Israel on British-Mandate Palestine Judaism is not looked at in exactly the same way. There was not such enmity between the Jews and Arabs as it exists today. Actually, they even used to be even close and allies. It was Jews who helped the Muslims defeat the Catholics in Spain, because they felt more comfortable with the Muslims than Christians. So things are not so obvious in either the past or present. I say this as a person who has been to Israel, Egypt, Jordan, has been involved at looking at both sides, their histories, have dated women from both sides -Israelis and Arabs. You forget that the Egyptians do have a border with Gaza.
They are expected by the Israelis to maintain it. You do know that. Israel has been telling them that all along. However, the Egyptian government is sometimes unkind to Palestinians who have Egyptian travel documents. I don't think you can blame the Egyptians for having a re-inforced border. They can't really do much for Gaza, and it is not their responsibility... It's not their jurisdiction... | |
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grog27
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Joined: 2/25/2005
Msg: 29 | |
| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/26/2008 9:03:00 PM | "there is that fence between Egypt and Gaza that was blown up.
Who even KNEW about it?"
Well, for starters, pretty well anybody who wasn't in a coma. It was all over the news here in Canada.
"It is a typical gross double standard.
The typical anti-Semite propaganda."
Unlike your "pro-Semite" propaganda?
Really, what a bizarre, ill-informed thread!!?!
But hey! Feel free to carry on. Don't let any facts get in the way of a good rant!! | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/27/2008 1:25:51 AM | Israel's stance is understandably defensive. Israel is occupying a foreign country and has done for the last 40 years. That is not a defensive stance. The closed border between Egypt and Gaza was part of the peace deal between Egypt and Gaza brokered by the US in order to prevent the smuggling of arms into Gaza from Egypt.
Another thing Hamas for all their faults was democratically elected by the people of Gaza yet the US and Israel refused to even consider talking to them from the very start and yet are happy to support unelected dictatorships around the world. Is that a case of we believe in democracy only if we like the people elected? I already know some of what are going to be the replies "terrorist organisation" blah blah. "I'm supporting terrorists suicide bombers blah blah" They said the same thing about the IRA too once not the suicide thing but the rest. (Hmm reminds me the IRA funding mainly came from the US back in the day.) Anyway that's off topic sorry, but the point is that peace will not come without dialogue and two things have to happen. The resistance have to stop bombing and the invaders have to leave then they will have to talk. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 31 | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/27/2008 2:24:13 AM | Another thing Hamas for all their faults was democratically elected by the people of Gaza yet the US and Israel refused to even consider talking to them from the very start and yet are happy to support unelected dictatorships around the world. Is that a case of we believe in democracy only if we like the people elected?
Good post! Bingo! | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/27/2008 7:47:10 AM | Grog, when I ask "who even knew about it? " I am speaking of the Egyptian fence to impede Gazan access to Egypt. The main point is that Israeli impedence has long been lambasted, while complaints of the Egyptian impedence has been practically non-existent. I am not talking about the destruction of the fence last week. Of course that was widespread, and thus this thread.
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Anarkaos, when a group's (Hamas's) very fundamental premise is your destruction, talks would be suicidal to Israel. Talks are only constructive when there is a basis of conciliation.
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Late, yes, quid pro quo is mutually destructive, but when the other side is relentlessly "quo-ing", the defensive side, in order to limit losses, what can they do but "quidding"? Hopefully, of course, we should strive for positive quid pro quos.
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Jed, you state: "Another thing Hamas for all their faults was democratically elected by the people of Gaza yet the US and Israel refused to even consider talking to them from the very start and yet are happy to support unelected dictatorships around the world."
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comments: a) as far as the talks, please see the response to Anarkaos. As far as supporting dictators: the ideal is support for any elected government that is supportive of freedoms of speech, religion, media, etc, and does not operate from intimidation. And, as the USA, like every other country, is comprised of human beings, with all of our faults, there is always a propensity of self interest. That self interest ideally should be limited, but we live in reality, and there are others that we may not consider to be as idealistic as "we" are, and we have to deal with those situations case by case. Please specify which dictators you are talking about. If you are talking about specific MidEast monarchs, the US support is not the deciding factor, anyway. Once a monarchy is established, "supporting" him for getting favorable deals is not necessarily amoral. An ideal (or thereabouts) is the US Constitution. But for some reason, such sensibilities don't always "translate" in the MidEast.
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Seavoyage, you stated: "It was Jews who helped the Muslims defeat the Catholics in Spain, because they felt more comfortable with the Muslims than Christians"
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comment: hmmm, that puts a different angle on the Inquisition. Also, congrats on your non-discriminatory dating. A hot chick is a hot chick. | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/27/2008 8:00:08 AM | Please specify which dictators you are talking about.
The 1954 Guatemalan coup d'état, a covert operation organized by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, overthrew Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán, the democratically-elected President of Guatemala.
In 1953, the CIA worked with the United Kingdom to overthrow the democratically-elected government of Iran lead by Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh who had attempted to nationalize Iran's oil, threatening the interests of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. Declassified CIA documents show that Britain was fearful of Iran's plans to nationalize its oil industry and pressed the U.S. to mount a joint operation to remove the prime minister.[3]
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, in a speech on March 17, 2000 before the American-Iranian Council on the relaxation of U.S. sanctions against Iran, finally acknowledged:
"In 1953, the United States played a significant role in orchestrating the overthrow of Iran's popular prime minister, Mohammed Mossadegh. The Dwight D. Eisenhower administration believed its actions were justified for strategic reasons, but the coup was clearly a setback for Iran's political development and it is easy to see now why many Iranians continue to resent this intervention by America in their internal affairs.
Moreover, during the next quarter century, the United States and the West gave sustained backing to the Shah's regime. Although it did much to develop the country economically, the Shah's government also brutally repressed political dissent. As President Bill Clinton has said, the United States must bear its fair share of responsibility for the problems that have arisen in U.S.-Iranian relations. Even in more recent years, aspects of U.S. policy toward Iraq during its conflict with Iran appear now to have been regrettably shortsighted, especially in light of our subsequent experiences with Saddam Hussein."[10]
Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960
Patrice Émery Lumumba, an African anti-colonial leader and the first legally elected Prime Minister of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, after he helped to win its independence from Belgium in June 1960, was deposed in a US CIA-sponsored coup during the Congo Crisis. He was subsequently imprisoned and assassinated under controversial circumstances.
1981-90: CIA directs exile (Contra) revolution, plants harbor mines and sink civilan ships to overthrow the democratically-elected Sandinista government of Nicaragua. After the Boland Amendment was enacted, it became illegal under U.S. law to fund the Contras; National Security Adviser Robert MacFarlan, Deputy National Security Adviser Admiral Poindexter, National Security Council staffer Col. Oliver North and others continued an illegal operation to fund the Contras, leading to the Iran-Contra scandal.
Republic of Ghana
On February 24, 1966, Prime Minister Nkrumah of the Ghana was overthrown by a supported CIA-backed coup[53][54]. A series of subsequent coups ended with the ascension to power of Flight Lieutenant Jerry Rawlings in 1981. These changes resulted in the suspension of the constitution in 1981 and the banning of political parties.
In 2002, Washington is claimed to have approved and supported a coup against the democratically-elected Venezuelan government, acting through senior officials of the U.S. government, including Special Envoy to Latin America Otto Reich and convicted Iran-contra figure and George W. Bush "democracy 'czar'" Elliott Abrams, who have long histories in the U.S. backed "dirty wars" of the 1980s in Central America, and links to U.S.-supported death squads working in Central America at that time.[
Since at least January 2006, the United States has supplied guns, ammunition and training to Palestinian Fatah group (which was won control of the government's executive branch in democratic elections), and according to an article in the Asia Times, in order to overthrow the Hamas government in the Palestinian territories.[65] Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by many Western nations. Asia Times states that apparently headed up by Bush Administration "democracy czar" and neo-con Elliott Abrams, the U.S. supply of rifles and ammunition, which started as a mere trickle, has become a torrent and a large number of Fatah men have been trained at two West Bank camps to attack Hamas supporters in the streets. The Israeli daily newspaper Ha'aretz reports that the U.S. has designated an astounding US$86.4 million for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' security detail.[66]
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/27/2008 8:06:10 AM | The best is Iran.....The Shah was one of the most brutal dictators of his era.[8] The Shah's brutal regime included a secret police, the SAVAK, allied and trained by the CIA, which routinely used torture, and is claimed to have destroyed any real possibility of the survival of an Iranian democratic counterforce to the ayatollahs' ensuing clerical tyranny bred by the Shah's blundering, martyring repression.[9] However, partially due to US pressure, he also attempted to modernzie Iran and introduced many social reforms (See the White Revolution).
This is supporting democracy?
SAVAK was founded in 1957 with the help of American and Israeli advisers who devised the agency to closely model after the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).[2] The mission of SAVAK was to place opponents of the Shah's regime under surveillance and to repress dissident movements through intimidation, exile, imprisonment, assassination, and torture. Though estimates vary widely, SAVAK was likely responsible for thousands of deaths.
The agency's first director was General Teymur Bakhtiar, who was assassinated by SAVAK agents and replaced by General Hassan Pakravan. Pakravan was replaced in 1965 by General Nematollah Nassiri, a close associate of the Shah, and the service was reorganized and became increasingly active in the face of rising Shia and Communist militancy and political unrest. Former director Pakravan and Nassiri were eventually executed by the Revolutionary Guard after the Islamic Revolution.
During the height of its power, SAVAK had virtually unlimited powers of arrest and detention. It operated its own detention centers, like Evin Prison.In addition to domestic security the service's tasks extended to the surveillance of Iranians abroad, notably in the United States, France, and the United Kingdom, and especially students on government stipends. The agency also closely collaborated with the American CIA by sending their agents to an air force base in New York City to share and discuss interrogation tactics.[3]
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/27/2008 8:43:18 AM | | And while not overthrown by the C.I.A I understand why we support the Saudis Oil of course. But I love how some people on here Seem to disregard Americas history of putting regimes in power for our own national interests and turn a blind eye to the consequences of such actions.And no I do not support the current Iranian regime but looking at history you can understand why they might be a little suspicious and pissed off at the U.S. | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/27/2008 8:43:52 AM | Jed, in the case at hand, amongst the region at hand (Israel, Palestine, Egypt), the USA has had no interest, in the clearest, most apparent way, in seeing anything but a peaceful solution.
Of those cases which you have copied from somewhere (very apparent by the footnotes), they are largely antiquated and arguable. Amongst those most recently cited by you include this
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" who have long histories in the U.S. backed "dirty wars" of the 1980s in Central America"
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This was at the height of the ColdWar, when the Soviet Union (hardly a democratic govt) was backing the likes of Nicaragua's dictator. The warring was initiated by the communists. The USA was backing the "freedom fighters", whereby, thereafter, the duly elected govt of Violetta whatever her name is came to power.
Concerning Iran, you may have overlooked editting your paste and copy, which includes this quote:
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"However, partially due to US pressure, he also attempted to modernzie Iran and introduced many social reforms "
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To get back to the thread: it is in the interest of world peace, and the USA, to have peace in the region. The media and international bias is indicated very clearly in the case of the existence of the Egyptian blockade, which has been overlooked, while lambasting Israel. Also, the fact that it is Israel that supplies water and electricity to Gaza, who is ruled by sworn enemies of Israel, is extremely poignant.
Translation: Israel is the "good guys" here. But you would never know. | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/27/2008 8:49:32 AM | "However, partially due to US pressure, he also attempted to modernzie Iran and introduced many social reforms "
And because of this,One of the most brutal dictators in the world the shah and savak is dismissed? WOW! | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/27/2008 9:45:50 AM | | Didn't they support Sadam back in the 80's too? Dont forget continuing US support of "boil in the bag" President Karimov of Uzbekistan. So called because that's his favourite way ofdealing with political opposition. | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/27/2008 10:17:56 AM | Didn't they support Sadam back in the 80's too? Dont forget continuing US support of "boil in the bag" President Karimov of Uzbekistan. So called because that's his favourite way ofdealing with political opposition.
True but as you can see some people like revisionist history or turn a blind eye. | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/27/2008 3:22:57 PM | Yall are diverting from the subject of the thread, but I hope it is OK to respond, as your comments need responding to
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Jed, don't laugh, it's your quote......
"However, partially due to US pressure, he also attempted to modernzie Iran and introduced many social reforms "
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Anarkaos asks: "Didn't they support Sadam back in the 80's too?"
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comment: Saddam and Khomeini back then (repeat: back then) wasn't a great choice as far as taking sides.
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Jed states: "True but as you can see some people like revisionist history or turn a blind eye."
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comment: Jed, the time was the 1980's, when the world balance was USSR expansionism vs free enterprise and all that other stuff. I personally don't know the extent of US support for Saddam at the time, but with the balance of power being questionable as to which way it was going, perhaps if the USA had disqualified all allies that lined up against the USSR, you might today be getting prepped up for the upcoming MayDay Parade in Moscow.
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an earthling states: "If a country is run by a dictator or a monarch or a military general, the CIA need to buy (control) only one person"
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comment: that doesn't say too much about the selection of leaders by the people of that country, does it (whichever country that might be) | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/27/2008 10:21:58 PM | However, partially due to US pressure, he also attempted to modernzie Iran and introduced many social reforms "
So because of this one quote taken from Wiki you dismiss the shah and savak for the murders,rapes,tortures of innocent people a government put in place by the u.s.Sounds like Saddamm hmmmm?Still waiting for your answer. | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/28/2008 12:54:07 AM | Too get back on thread.......
Where was the media, who had been propagandizing for Hamas et al?
Lets see it was major coverage on abc,nbc,cbs,cnn,bbc,fox front page yahoo,msn.So im not sure where this idea comes from.
And the border was maintained by Egyptian security.
Correct and the government of Egypt let people through to buy fuel,food and other goods since the closure. | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/28/2008 4:34:57 AM | http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/27/AR2008012702062.html?hpid=moreheadlines
By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, January 28, 2008; Page A17
JERUSALEM, Jan. 27 -- Saying they were waging "economic warfare" against the Gaza Strip's Hamas leaders, Israeli officials told the Supreme Court on Sunday that the military intends to start cutting electricity to the Palestinian territory and continue restricting fuel.
The statements by Israel's state attorney, outlining Defense Ministry plans, came in response to a lawsuit filed by Israeli and Palestinian rights groups.
The organizations are asking the Supreme Court to make Israel end fuel restrictions that caused power blackouts in the Gaza Strip this month. The activists argue that the restrictions constitute collective punishment of Gaza's 1.5 million people and violate international law.
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In the filing, Israel committed to allowing the European Union to resume supplying Gaza with weekly shipments of 2.2 million liters of industrial fuel. The fuel is used by Gaza's sole power plant, which shut down last week after its supply ran out. Palestinian electricity authorities said the plant's shutdown cut power to about 500,000 people in central Gaza.
The United Nations said the fuel cuts deprived about 40 percent of Gaza's people of running water and compelled Gaza to dump untreated sewage into the Mediterranean. Hospitals relied on generators. | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/28/2008 8:01:59 AM |
Another thing Hamas for all their faults was democratically elected by the people of Gaza yet the US and Israel refused to even consider talking to them from the very start
I think you are confusing acceptance that the electoral process was carried out in a way that reflected the genuine will of the people and dealing with the result.
It is the right of any nation to adjust as it sees fit its Foreign Policy following a change of government in another place. Since Hamas has a stated aim the obliteration of Israel it is understandable that Nations around the world that, however critical of the Israeli Government policy they may be, do support the continued existence of the Israeli State, might choose to adopt a policy of non-co-operation with Hamas until it renounces its commitment to the annihilation of Israel.
The Palestinians faced something of a ‘Hobson’s Choice’ in the elections. Fatah may have been more pragmatic in their dealings with Israel but their internal administration was chaotic and almost totally corrupt. Hamas was much more adept at providing basic needs of the people but its stance toward Israel was a guarantee of implacable enmity and zero prospects for progress. | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/28/2008 8:18:30 AM | | Rosso, I agree with your views about Hamas and FATAH, in general. I thought it was a dumb idea for Bush to insist that there be democratic elections among the Palestinians. It was basically putting the blame for the lack of peace for democratic elections. With years of warfare, of course, Hamas was going to win. The PLO didn't get a peace agreement and as the violence increased, Hamas became more popular. You didn't need to be an expert on political affairs to expect Hamas to win, and then Bush got upset that Hamas won. Who did he expect to win, anyway? They were using the elections as an excuse. Hamas no matter what good it has done in terms of services for the people acted like dictators, because they refused to allow for further elections, and they staged a coup d'etat, and most Palestinians believe in a peace agreement, and they went against the Palestinian people and have helped put Gaza in a mess. | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/28/2008 8:23:01 AM | rsx, maybe Israel's actions against a government that is adament pertaining to Israel's destruction (even as Israel supplies it it's basic necessities) will be a little more appreciative.
And maybe the Palestinians' allies, such as adjacent Egypt, can be the benefactor.
Make that supposed allies. | |
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| International duplicity: Israel / Egypt, the wall
Posted: 1/28/2008 4:06:02 PM | Consider, for example, the following Reuters news, out today. To put that story in perspective:
* the Israelites supply the Gazans with water and electricity, the Egyptians don't
* but, the Palestinian govt wants Israel's destruction, but not Egypt's
***so, the logical conclusion is that Israel has good reason for a fence, from a logical survival standpoint, whereas the Egyptians not so much.
So, who do the Jordanians in the news clip below want to sic suicide bombers on, because of a blockade?
Of course.......Israel.
And the media, like lapdogs, won't even see the irony.
Meanwhile, the USA supports Israel, even though it is against the geo-political financial interest of the USA. Why? Because it is the RIGHT thing to do.
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AMMAN (Reuters) - Chanting slogans urging Islamist Hamas militants to resume suicide bombings against Israel, thousands of Jordanians marched in the capital on Friday to protest against Israel's blockade of Gaza.
About 8,000 activists from Jordan's mainstream Muslim Brotherhood took to the streets to support their ideological allies, the Palestinian Hamas group, and hail militants' success in breaching the Gaza border in defiance of an Israeli blockade.
"The people of Jordan are with Hamas," chanted the crowds who called on the Islamist group to resume a campaign of suicide bombings and intensify rocket attacks against Israel.
""Oh Hamas hit them with al-Qassam rockets ... bring the suicide bombers to Tel Aviv ," they chanted, waving the green flags of Jordan's opposition Muslim Brotherhood....
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