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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/15/2008 5:32:51 AM | 1. how does he have access to this e-mail? Its stupid if you automatically sign in the second your computer turns on you should have to enter the password everytime you want to go on messanger, social networkign sitesm, and e-mail. Same thing with online banking. That way people who get access toy our computer or ina multiple user environment you don;t have such issues. Its your fault for allowing things to be so easy to get into. And if your boyfriend is reading your e-mail jhe is weither curious as to if you are talking about himw ith your friends or he does not trust you. in any case he does not respect your privacy and you should dump the dude! | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/15/2008 6:32:16 AM | I have to admit that I often wonder if people who even when they dont have anything to hide expect and demand total blind trust from people and absolute privacy are doing so because on subconcious level they are aware of their own weaknesses and that given a situation where a relationship needed some effort on their part they know deep down they would be likely to see "fun" and distraction elsewhere rather than apply any effort and self alteration
That might sound like a very sweeping statement at first glance, but I spent many years counselling couples with sexual or relationship problems and one of the things I found is that almost invariably the cheaters in a relationship had pretty much always been secretive and demanding "space" and things that they could keep private from a partner whereas, also almost invariably the more naive and unsuspecting people who had been cheated on and hadnt realised for extended periods of time were the sort who didnt see why they should hide or restrict anything from their partner
People seem to be viewing this from solitary perspectives at the expense of the wider scope of possibilities
1. walking at the slightest hint of suspicion is too idealistic for the real world, SOMETIMES those suspicions will be founded, sometimes they will be due to the persons own misjudgements or missinterpretations which can be corrected, sometimes they will be due to their own problems that can also be corrected, sometimes they will be due to a new and hard to understand alteration in their partners behaviour which can be explained, understood or corrected but which might not even be consciously recognised by either person yet so many say they would simply walk at any suspicion or dount of a partners trustability or shaking of their own trust in that person even if wrong and no matter how brief, ill defined or formless
2. Someone who IS cheating will often be extremely adept at hiding it. Although you SHOULD know them very well people change, and the person now cheating will due to time not be the one you initially started to date which is why so many can get away with it for so long, and they also know you as well as you know them which merely aids their efficiency at deceit. Someone doing this is also unlikely to just admit it otherwise they wouldnt be hiding it to begin with so secretive searching is often the only way to know for sure and to avoid throwing away an established relationship on the basis of wisps of smoke of unfounded fears of a possibility that might not exist and could simply be a misreading of a change of behaviour perceived on a subconcious level
Arrogance and self absorbtion might make it easy to make sweeping snap judgements and disbelieve your "instincts" can never be wrong and due to its self replicating and supporting nature will reinforce the belief your instincts are never wrong, but that in itself is extremely innacurate and doesnt make a person worth wasting any time building a relationship with as those types will end it even when wrong believing they are right and can never ever be convinced otherwise
With any interpersonal situation of merit all possibililities need to be considered even the ones involving the possibility your own feelings and suspicions are wrong as they often will be and action should be based on proof and actual evidence rather than supposition and shaky conclusions based on supposed "facts", fear driven negative expectations, fear of mistakes or humiliation
But any "possibility" dwelt on for too long without action starts to feel like fact. and where actual facts one way or the other wont be given or cant be sought things like this remain the ONLY course of action to acquire them and act on substance rather than nothingness | |
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diamah
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Joined: 6/1/2006
Msg: 203 | |
| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/15/2008 8:19:56 AM |
walking at the slightest hint of suspicion is too idealistic for the real world,
Exactly; there may be kids to consider, family, financial assets or obligations, years invested. Not to mention, there are those who can recover from broken trust and retain a relationship that has been and will be very important and valuable to them. My daughter and her partner are currently going through this. I wonder about people who believe just "walking" is so easy and can and should be done if someone *thinks* they're being lied to. Have they ever felt truly committed? Can they?
Someone who IS cheating will often be extremely adept at hiding it.
My ex was good at compartmentalizing, and he also relied heavily on his ability to twist things, make them *my* issue, or present them in some way that was plausible - however unlikely. His favorite defenses when he couldn't talk quite fast enough was along the lines of what I've read here from people who feel strongly about email privacy: "The relationship is doomed if you don't trust me (blindly);" "It's YOUR issue; you are finding what you are looking for;" "You are insecure, you are PMS'ing; why are you believing her instead of me?" And his favorite, if merely asked about something that didn't make sense "How dare you call me a liar!" followed by a rant and/or leaving for several hours. Until the end, there was rarely any suspicion in my mind about his veracity; I was merely seeking clarification from him about something I didn't understand. And, because I wanted to believe him and trust him, for years I did - I ignored or repressed my doubts and suspicions. When I finally did allow myself to pay attention to those suspiciouns I really had nothing more to go on except my gut feeling that just too many things didn't add up. Until the evidence was before my eyes - in black and white, so to speak - and even then I tried to believe and trust him instead of that evidence. Stupid on my part, absolutely - but unless you've been there, you just aren't going to understand. I wish I'd seen that "hard" evidence sooner rather than later. Might have saved me a number of years and considerable heartache; on the other hand, denial can be pretty effective in keeping someone where they don't need to be.
As a rule, I do not read emails/snail mail addressed to my partner, or look into his personal files/paperwork unless invited to do so. That's my standard. Nonetheless, I would be uncomfortable if someone with whom I was involved in a long-term and serious relationship felt it necessary to keep locks on his email, file cabinets, etc. to "protect" them from me. I'd wonder about his trust issues. I'd not want to be with someone that appeared to me to be that untrusting, suspicious and secretive. Fortunately, there's a variety of people so I'm pretty certain whoever I may end up with will feel similarly to me about this issue. :) | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/15/2008 11:37:27 AM | I agree with the statements about trust issues.
If you can't trust, you can't be trusted.
As far as the stories about suspecting something and confirming it with snooping, my thought is that the trust was broken already at the suspicion. At that point there was already something seriously wrong with the relationship. | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/15/2008 11:56:07 AM | I can't imagine going through something personal of anyone's and having my personal things gone through by someone else feels dirty. I've never had anything to hide ever, but if I can't feel trusted, I don't want to be around that person.
If someone is suspicious of you there is no return from that point, they never stop, and it only proves to you they are completely untrustworthy themselves.
Yes it would be all over red-rover, I will not be made to feel dirty in my life ever again.
Marriage and relationships have taught me blind trust and faith are only for the stupid and the naive, and trust most certainly has to be earned. I think it best to always talk things through and if something has made you feel worried - believe and act on it by leaving. | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/15/2008 12:04:42 PM | I had been seeing a woman a few years back, who managed to guess the password I was using, and she started logging on to my homepage from her house or her job! she was reading my mail for months as near as I can figure, I only caught on to it because I was receiving emails from my father about a very private business deal, and she accidentally said something about it one night! ...My advice to everyone, is guard your password and maybe change it often!
Stormpainter | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/15/2008 12:08:30 PM |
This is why God created strong passwords... ... and just like the 10 commandments... they too can be broken, lol...
To be cast into a firey infirno for a hellish eternity??
According to some, lol..... | |
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diamah
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Joined: 6/1/2006
Msg: 208 | |
| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/15/2008 12:40:42 PM | What's with the continuing assumption that reading another's email is invariably snooping? Sometimes, it is an accident - one is engaged in lawful business, and stumbles across incriminating evidence.
As far as the stories about suspecting something and confirming it with snooping, my thought is that the trust was broken already at the suspicion. At that point there was already something seriously wrong with the relationship.
I don't think there's any denying this; other than cases where someone is a pathological liar, dishonesty and distrust between a couple is certainly an indication of problems that need to be addressed. Still, once trust is broken, whatever the issue, people have a choice to leave or to try to fix the problem. I admire my daughter because she is willing to give him the opportunity to regain her trust; she can still see and appreciate the qualities she fell in love with, and she doesn't want to deprive her kids of a two-parent home nor reduce their contact with the father they adore. I think that's more commendable and admirable than leaving a relationship either due to suspicion, founded or unfounded, or because your partner has read your emails or looked in your underwear drawer without your permission. And if she hadn't found evidence they wouldn't be on the road to (hopefully) actually mending their relationship and giving the kids a better family life. I hope it works for them, but if not - at least she didn't give up at the first hint of difficulty. | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/15/2008 12:52:08 PM | and if something has made you feel worried - believe and act on it by leaving.
Jeez, if thats the "commitment" people apply to relationships nowadays perhaps they should also stop breeding and bringing children into their flakey transient unsubstantial couplings too only to deny them of their other parent based purely on a whim
The thing is that although something might have "made you feel worried" its not a FACT, its a possibility, a suspicion and as often if not more so than not it wont be what you suspect it is or even anything tangible. Instincts are as often and as easily wrong as they are right
Maybe people should start making it totally and umissably clear they have this view and outlook before entering into any form of dalliance with people so that other people dont waste periods of their lives on people so arrogant they cant imagine ever being wrong about anything, so detached from any relationships they NEARLY form that they can throw it away in an instant and without hesitation at the slightest wisp of formless smoke of doubt they might ever have EVEN if that doubt is part of their own issued or foibles and nothing to do with their partner, and so they dont waste a moment of their time on someone uncommunicative and unwilling to even attempt to find out what the cause of a cloud over a relationship might be or what its cause might be, but would simply walk because of the cloud not even bothered it if was a misconcieved or misjudged one
Are people really so desperate they would date someone so flighty in any manner other than casually? How can you ever hope to build anything with any substance or resilience with someone so quick to take flight on no facts or valid basis at all?
I've had **** buddies with more substance and consistency about them than that and with far more committment to a casual dalliance than those people seem to have with regards the sham they think of as an actual relationship
No wonder so many kids have no idea what its like to grow up with two parents nowadays if thats indicative of peoples attitudes
The thing with perception is its inherently flawed no matter how real our self perception of our perceptions are as we can only view the world from our singular vantage point and only with our own cognition of the world around us and for the most part only with our own interpretive responses
So often others will behave oddly in response to OUR actions and subtle changes in how we are, act and react, changes we ourselves wont notice and that even the person reacting to them wont percieve on a cognitive level
In turn, if these fearfull flight junkies dont flee based purely on that persons behaviour as is indicative and unnavoidable with relationships their own behaviour will in many cases alter a second time in response to that persons reaction to their first change, which is also likely to be why they flee
Forget the fact their initial change could be unrelated to the relationship, that therefore their partners change is a reaction, hell, lets not bother actually communicating, lets just throw away relationships based on ill defined feelings we cant be bothered to even try to understand, discuss or attempt to adapt to or work around
I'm really struggling to decide who are the biggest pollutants to the already decaying gene pool. Those idiotic enough to trust blindly or those so superficial in their relationships they can throw them away for no reason rather than putting any effort into them
Life and love is about balance, understanding, communication (not simply "talking" as many wrongly assume is "communicating) and knowledge of oneself as well as others to the point of realising self flaws and imperfections rather than just those of everyone else
And where people with such detached and disposeable approaches to relationships actually breed they will pass those values (I use that word very loosely obviously) onto their offspring further decaying the fabric of society as much by example as actual spoken words
Extremes are rarely valid or applicable in the real world in any useful way
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/15/2008 7:00:29 PM | Cunning Linguist:
I have to admit that I often wonder if people who even when they dont have anything to hide expect and demand total blind trust from people and absolute privacy are doing so because on subconcious level they are aware of their own weaknesses and that given a situation where a relationship needed some effort on their part they know deep down they would be likely to see "fun" and distraction elsewhere rather than apply any effort and self alteration.
CL, I can see what you are saying here, and I realize that you are arguing against extremes when it comes to both demands for privacy AND irrational levels of distrust. And I don't think that any reasonable person would EXPECT to be trusted “blindly.” But it didn’t occur to me, when it started, that this thread was about “blind trust”—rather, it was about one invasive act which I’m surprised anyone would defend as GOOD behavior. But now, a number of posters have suggested that ANY desire for ANY kind of privacy within a relationship suggests a lack of true openness to intimacy, and your post could be read as supporting that view, although you do also balance what you say with a condemnation of (what I read as) irrational distrust. But one of the things that has troubled me about parts of this thread, is what I read as a conflation of ANY valuing of "privacy" with having "secrets" or "something to hide." For the sake of clarification, I'd ask whether YOU think that a person should be expected to give up ALL privacy within a relationship in order to PROVE that they have “nothing to hide”…and in order to be someone who CAN have a truly intimate relationship.
Obviously, my personal view is that one SHOULDN’T feel that they must expose every part of themselves to view in order avoid being guilty of demanding "total blind trust" within a relationship. For example, I journal quite a lot, and I'm able to be wholly open in my journals, just for myself, in a way that I can only do because I know nobody else will read them—this helps me to work out my thoughts and feelings in a way that I don’t do as well without writing them out. Is it the case that simply because I write down my reflections—as many people do not—that they should become automatically accessible to someone else, even someone I love, in a way that they wouldn’t if I didn’t write them down? Because if that were the case, the exercise would lose its meaning.... and I'd lose an often helpful and therapeutic thing that I do FOR ME. Surely, though, if I was cheating, I’d write about that in my journals…does the fact that THIS is something that a man could find out about me IF he read my journals, mean that he SHOULD have an absolute right to read them?
You have said that you have counseled couples, and I don't know whether or not you are a therapist, but if you are, what would you think if one of your clients told you that his or her partner felt that, by the very process of sharing things with YOU with an expectation of complete confidentiality, they were withholding intimacy from their partner? Is this not comparable? In my case, I don't see a therapist, but I am part of a very close circle of female friends and we write private things to each other that are ONLY as open as they are BECAUSE they are PRIVATE. Sure, we TALK too--and somehow, according to what I'm reading into this thread, phone conversations have an expectation of privacy that emails don't warrant. But for me, the issue here isn't--as some have put it--being smart enough to either delete or not write down anything you don't want read (for that in itself is ACTING on a desire for privacy), but WHETHER having private thoughts and correspondence that you want to keep private from an SO (or anyone else) is somehow threatening to LOVE or inappropriate simply because you are in a relationship.
IF I ever found that someone I cared about suspected me of infidelity and wanted access to my email account in order to monitor me, I suppose that I would provide that rather than allow them to continue feeling the misery that comes with distrust (which is a VERY different thing from having him break into my account without permission). BUT I would, from that moment, feel constrained in what I wrote in my emails to my friends (as would they in their emails to me, that he might now be reading), and I expect that I would ALSO feel that the relationship had lost something. But what if that same loved one wanted to read my journals, and have ongoing access to them? I can’t ever see agreeing to that, and if HE made a deal breaker of it, I have to think that the deal would be broken. Does that make me someone incapable of intimacy, with no willingness to make the effort to really BE in a relationship? I don't think so, unless that also means that someone going to private therapy can also be described that way.
We can remove the expectation of privacy from ALL relationships, and perhaps some people are cool with that or even “demand” it—although I would argue that those same people should (in order to truly uphold their “principles” about this) conduct ALL their conversations as if their SO is actually listening, whether or not he or she actually IS. But all it would mean for me (or that person in private therapy) is losing one means of working out my thoughts. To me, if you love someone, you wouldn't want that.
Anyway, putting my own cards on the table, I have never been unfaithful to a relationship, and I’ve never (to my knowledge) been cheated on—so I guess that might affect my view of things. But perhaps because I've also never been involved with someone who felt compelled to read my emails or my journal, it surprises me to find out that many people would consider NOT relishing the idea of providing that access as necessarily "having something to hide."
I realize this is a wordy post. Comment or not, but I'd be interested in your thoughts.
peace. | |
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adg60
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Joined: 11/10/2007
Msg: 211 | |
| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/15/2008 7:44:35 PM | | I have a friend that this has happened to. He did use it to vent some but not much. I feel that everyone still needs there space. I believe e-mail is personal and should remain that way. I would confront my partner and ask that they not do it. I honestly don't think they would want you into all of their business including their e-mail. Of course I would change my password and possibly my e-mail address as well. There needs to be trust in a relationship. That would push me away faster than anything. | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/16/2008 12:57:45 AM | Nomadic
Firstly where emotions and relationships are concerned "reasonable" people are a misnomer, moreso where deep feelings are present and even rarer still where fears, worries, suspicions and fiercely guarded secrets are concerned
Reason, logic, balance, penmindedness, stability and cognition are more prevalent the less involved and the less emotional a dalliance is
This subject is by many being discussed as tho its a start in a cycle. As tho someone would simply wake up one day and out of boredom or just for the heck of it set about such an endeavour. Now there are infact people who would and do do that but they arent what for the most part this thread is about. They are infact inherently paranoid and distrustful people who would do that with every partner they have almost from day one and are almost invariably untrustable and will be doing, will have done or will be easily capable of the things they suspect all of their partners of doing hence why they suspect everyone else of also doing or being capable of it
Those people also are very secretive as a result, as tho subconciously preparing for when they do have something to hide because of knowing from past experience of just based on self awareness that they are easily capable of having things to hide, so hiding is a consistent and integral part of their being
In this instance tho, and in my posts I am referring more to people for whom its not the "norm", people whos investigations are due to a shift in the nature, tone and flow of the relationship and their partners behaviour
Now you said that IF a person has some degree of suspicion you would just let them see what they wanted to see in order to put their mind at rest, thats an admirable gesture but within the psychology of suspicion is worthless
The reasons for that are these
1, You cant prove a negative.
I.E. Its impossible, especially in small isolated gestures to prove you arent cheating. Think about it for a moment, a cheater can show countless things that dont prove what they are doing which proves nothing at all. Only actual proof they are really changes the dynamic. And someone smart AND cheating will have already from TV, friends, common sense and perhaps past experience know all the ways they could be caught out and is likely to have them covered. They also have their entire knowledge of their partner to aid them by knowing how their mind works and how they might try to get actual proof all of which can be countered in advance
Over the years I've known cheaters keep additional sim cards either at work or at friends houses, pay for an additional phone line at a friends house, and even go as far as keeping a car their partner didnt know about parked at the back of a friends house so that even if followed they would be seen entering their friends house at the front and seem to remain there for hours when infact they had instantly exited via the back hopped in the car and driven off for a carnal bumping of uglies elsewhere to return later by the reverse path seeming as tho they had merely been with their friend the whole time (hole time? lol)
The crux tho, is that a cheaters denial and exposures to prove innocence will be exactly the same as a none cheater and only the things they DONT expose willingly are where any real proof will be found much of which will actually be kept from their partners knowledge of its existence to begin with making furtive investigation the only way to find it anyway
2. You actually missunderstood what I was claiming was the opposite of secrecy and hiding. Actual secrecy and the hiding away of things in itself is as suspicious as overly overt dislosure in this arena
People who do or are likely at some point to have things to hide tend to start off by hiding things they dont need to. But others will go the otherway and will put great pains into showing things that dont need to be shown as a means of creating the illusion of total openness when infact its controlled and very selective openness only showing what is known about and completely hiding away other aspects such as duplicare email that will never even be read at home
So as much as both will seem like opposites they are infact more similar methodologies than most will realise. Actual balance is niether hiding nor disclosing things themselves, its achieved by a verbal communicative balance where no subject betweena couple is "out of bounds" where not through need or expectation but purely by nature all things are shared in both directions and with that sharing the trust or secrecy is also shared
Where thats the case a couple rarely develops any suspicion, any changes in behaviour tend to be discussed as do feelings where they are the reaction to a change that isnt cognitively realised and things dont get to the stage where cancerous feelings and suspicions grow and put up barriers and have people taking defensive stances and pursuits
In such an atmosphere someone wouldnt feel a need to read anything the other person has because they would know that they already know everything it contains
Sometimes even those people WILL be wrong in that assumption, but for the most part its the pinnacle of openness and happens interpersonally rather than via more dysfunctional means like the exposing of emails or the contents of mobile phones and texts
In the aspect of the scenario I have been referring to which is far from uncommon its where one persons behaviour has altered in some way. As a result the other person starts to develop a feeling that something isnt right but initially and depending on how aware the person is they might not even know what the change is merely sense their reaction to it
That makes it hard for the subject to be discussed, after all how do you discuss something you arent cognitively aware of? The person who has changed is also commonly unaware of the change in themselves as those things happen so gradually its unnoticeable like your kids growing daily, its so slight it cant be seen from day to day and each altered state becomes the new "norm" so personal introspection has no awareness of change when its so gradual
But niether person being cognitively aware of the change negates its existence or realness, it just hampers discussion and resolution
Infact often we are only aware of changes in ourselves by the subtle changes in behaviour they cause in those around us and even then if we are enlightened and wise enough to know this phonomenon exists which very few people are and the more common reaction is to just assume the other person has a problem, end of
In this instance that assumption is the other person is just paranoid, insecure, untrusting and therefore perhaps even untrustworthy et al
Which is where many of the totalitarianites would exit that relationship because of not being trusted even tho its their own actions and behaviours that have led to them not being trusted in the first place. Or on the other side of the coin where people will throw away the relationship because their trust is undermined taking that as enough reason to call it a day
Thing there tho is that people arent perfect, someone being distant and distracted because of things like tension at stress often wont realise they are stressed or that its changed their behaviour so they wont be able to explain away the change in their behaviour
To a partner that can just as easily be seen as them hiding the reason for the change and suspicion is bourne
And in countless instances that inability to either discuss, alter or explain away the occurence will grow like a cancer eventually undermining the relationship
So when one of a couple had reached the point where they would be considering reading emails and the like how they arrived at that point and why is the more important thing. The fact they are there becomes more irrelevant really
The act itself is though often their only step forward if either their partner IS hiding something or isnt aware of the changes in them that is causing the suspicion to begin with as that leaves them with an empass which will just fester and end the relationship anyway given time to grow
My point is that too many people talk in such absolutes, as tho they are an open book, as tho certain gestures have only negative connotations, as tho a thing like this is the end of a relationship or trust
In reality someone who isnt bothered about a partner or relationship wouldnt need to bother doing it, the need to do so would be enough to end the relationship on
The fact someone needs to look for actual proof of a suspicion shows hope they havent assumed their suspicion is either factual, actual or valid, it shows they have enough value placed on the relationship to need something of substance before ending it or still wants to find something to put their mind at rest about the whole thing
None of which will come from a person who cant even perceive the changes in their own mood and behaviour that are at the root of the suspicion to begin with
I personally believe in total disclosure within a relationship. I have never kept any secrets from a partner and have never bought into the modern belief so many seem to have that friends, family and colleagues are and should be the "sharing point" for somethings rather than a partner
I cling to the old fashioned belief that its me and a partner first, friends and family second so anything that troubles me and moreso if its related to my relationship is discussed with my partner first which even if that doesnt lend itself to an answer or solution gives them the ability to understand any changes in my mood caused by it whether relationship, work or otherwise related as they know all of my current concerns, ponderances and ongoing trains of thought
As such everyone else I know is made aware of the fact I have no secrets from my partner and that if thats an issue they shouldnt share anything with me which again in turn removes the need for barriers and secrecy within a relationship which is often the cause of such suspicions as people will often know you are hiding "something" but fear will give them a list of "possibles" that are related to their own worst worries and have nothing to do with whats actually the reason which is another common example of cause and effect placing suspicion based on actual perceptions in a relationship where no wrong doing is occuring, and also another example where nothing more than openness would have avoided it
So in closing, reading someones emails is a act that is often caused by things done or hidden by the person whos emails are under scrutiny, gross indignance only adds fuel to that fire and sometimes a more wisened acceptance that this person isnt suspicious for no reason at all but because of things they perceive which have substance although not of the vein suspected are the cause
Building war machines, drawing battle lines and launching into counter offensives only adds to the problems and rarely attains resolution other than separation and ending
Its seems the more educated we are the less we seem to know on an interpersonal level and the less we understand ourselves and other people, and the time and effort for actual communication and discussion to attain knowledge and understanding of a partner has been replaced by pop psych snap judgements and off the shelf conclusions that only fit a tiny percentage of people and scenarios but are applied by the masses to any similar situations as tho always acurate
I hope that explains my angle on this more clearly
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. You likened seeing a counsellor or therapist to that of exposing secrets in otherways
Theres a huge difference between telling a professional person bound by an oath of secrecy who has no relation to the discussed party and discussing a partner with friends and colleagues who in some cases will know the partner, whom will also move in many cases in the same circle of friends and whom will in many cases not be speaking in your own best interest but will be applying their own experiences and often any axes they have to grind with the partner or that gender at large and also where the "ear" is of the opposite sex might and do in many cases have their own agendas at work that will make them try to nudge you towards an ending rather than reparative actions
People place far too much trust on friends forgetting they are human too and are even unknown to themselves driven by degrees of mysoginy or misandry due to their own painful experiences, are quite capable of being biased either towards the partner being discussed or might simply be single and subconciously want everyone around them to also be single amongst a whole host of other driving factors that will and do subtly alter any responses or advice given
Whereas a good counsellor or therapist wont try to actually provide solutions, they will or should just be trying to get you to open your mind to a much wider degree of possibilities, options, perspectives, paradigms and avenues than most will be open to at the outset as well as steering you towards finding actual resolution with the ONLY person it can ever really be attained with, the partner themselves
So no, I dont think they are the same at all really. what would be closer is the person disclosing personal information to a complete stranger they met in a pub or bus stop whom they would never meet again
One last point which is sort of related to this
I personally dont under any circumstances either personal or professional start off trusting someone. I also dont start off distrusting them though
I am fully aware that some can be trusted and others not on any level we can encounter them so either extreme starting point is illogical and unfair.
So I start with a neutral view to someone on all levels and that alters over time by the consistency or lack thereof contained within their words and actions
So for me, when someone has managed to earn my trust over time nothing less than facts would shake it. But that doesnt negate the chance of suspicion either.
The only difference is I tend to be aware that suspicion is just a feeling not a conviction and is as likely to be misplaced and misunderstood as it is to be acurate and that its as much to be caused by my own foibles as by an actual substantive thing I perceive in someone else
So the ONLY way I would want to act on a suspicion or feeling is when I have actual facts to support the suspicion which cant be obtained by idly sitting by and letting it fester unchecked
We have two main choices in life, apathy which means life happens to us outside of our control or by taking control and risking the discovery of things we didnt want to discover. But the second also gives us some degree of control over how and where our life goes and sometimes the bad things we discover will be flaws and lackings within ourselves and that is what most people try to avoid discovering at all costs and often to the exclusion of all else when they need somewhere else to pin the blame for things other than on themselves
Thats a matter of personal responsibility
I am personally responsible for my own life, direction and happiness. Nobody else and nobody elses. So in a situation of suspicion I would seek to actually "KNOW" the cause whether that cause is in myself or external and would then seek to act on what I discovered rather than acting on off the shelf versions of what might be the case or hiding behind sweeping generalisations like many have posted because life isnt that simplistic or black and white. And if it was me under suspicion I woudl want to find what I could possibly have done to make that person suspicious of me to begin with with an equal gusto rather than trying to wheel out indignant smoke screens that never solve anything
No decision or action is wrong if taken based on facts and facts alone no matter how unpallateable the results | |
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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 214 | |
| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/16/2008 8:03:21 AM |
I a true and real and committed "partnership", there no privacy issues between the two partners. They are as "one".
To be as one, for me, sounds utopian - and pretty boring in longterm if I am trying to place the idea in realistic life. Doesn't some amount of privacy keep us a bit more excited over one another? Personally, I prefer suprise me -factor ( and if cheating is the best you can to do to surprise me, go ahead :p That would happen, if meant to be happen, even without looking for possible evidence.) | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/16/2008 8:42:47 AM | Cunning, Nomadic and others, you have certainly taken this discussion to a much higher level, and as Nomadic has said it seems to becoming more than an issue of privacy here. The number of possibilities here are boundless, just as endless as the number of different personalities and ways a relationship can take place. Some of us are programmed to be very understanding about the differences in others, some are not able to even begin to comprehend why someone would be so different than themselves.
While I would love to examine each of those scenarios from birth to death, quit frankly thats impossible.
Lets assume a few parameters, a few parameters that are impossible to achieve. One could assume that in the beginning throws of a relationship where the two get to know each other that its probably going to come out just how private or non-private the two are going to be. There are always boundaries of some sort, no one person is fully private and no one person is fully open. There is always going to be something that is considered a boundary that cannot be crossed.
But lets just assume that this is a fully open relationship and the two know one another inside and out. Nothing can be hidden nor would the two want to hide anything from each other. The two read each others e-mail all the time and even have a joint e-mail account along with their own and they both know everything.
I do have the right to know though if I'm being subjected to std's or worse, HIV because Mr. Private needed to dip his floppy disk into other disk drives. Giving someone Aid's is a much more serious offence in my mind.
And then one ends up cheating on the other. It happens sometimes, right? In one night in some wild mistake, maybe a drunken one, maybe a good friend, doesn't matter how, it happens. And that person has HIV.
How is reading e-mail going to help you? That info is certainly not going to make it out in the next letter.
The point is...
You can throw scenarios at me, I can throw scenarios at you, it doesn't matter. The point of this thread is in the title. Anyone that is serious about the relationship they are in is going to know the boundaries of it. They are already going to know if they are crossing the line or not by reading them. If it's okay to read them, we know it, if it's not, we know it. Reading e-mail is no solution to your problem. As has been said, if you go that far, it's over already. | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/16/2008 9:37:49 AM | Good to see the discussion going to a little higher level than just dealing in, as noted, whimsical absolutes and broad sweeping generalizations. Even though this subject of snooping versus rights to privacy has been kicked around on here before, it's always interesting to read some of the responses. Pretty good thread dealing a lot about human nature.
Some very good points in msg 213:
So when one of a couple had reached the point where they would be considering reading emails and the like, how they arrived at that point, and why, is the more important thing. The fact they are there becomes more irrelevant really...
This is the key to the OP's title:""Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?""
If the partner wasn't bothered with not reading it before, but now is, then this a bright red flag in the relationship. And, if the partners had prior agreement that his computer is his and hers is hers, (which is the way I prefer it for lots of reasons, none of which are subversive reasons), and one day one of the partners just suddenly has to know what's inside the others computer, well then it could be a simple case of curiosity killing the cat...it's a clearly an invasion of privacy and would have to be addressed forthwith.
In some industries, a partner going into my computer and reading my emails is a crime on MY part under privacy laws breaching duties of confidentiality owed to clients. The personal email owner has allowed the duty of confidentiality to his/her clients to be breached, and that can be no laughing matter. People's minds work in strange ways sometimes and can possible do more than damage the present relationship beyond repair.
msg 213:
In reality someone who isnt bothered about a partner or relationship wouldnt need to bother doing it, the need to do so would be enough to end the relationship on...
And i think this is where nomadic's coming from on this thought. And that's the sort of emotional level I would be looking for at this stage of my life. Nearly 50, I would expect any female partner to have her own life set up in a way that there's some things in her life that may or may not be off limits, but I'm not the least bit interested in the nitty gritty of it anyway. It's her business and I would like to think that there would be enough noticeable change in our relationship to begin to suspect something might be up without me having to break the law and break into her computer and spy on my partner; because really that's what it is.
It's a bright red flag in the continued growth of the relationship because somewhere here, little bells should be going off that the train's come off the tracks and the relationship could be headed for wreckage.
I would go ahead and give her full access I suppose just to satiate the curiousity, but i do believe the relationship is on pretty shakey ground at that point, and personally the enthusiasm for the companionship of my present partner would have been definitely put on much less secure footings, as i'm just not quite sure where she's coming from anymore. I wouldn't take odds that the relationship isn't pretty much going in the tank at that point. But, everything's negotiable I suppose.
See, if i were to put myself in the snoopers shoes, which I hope in real life never happens to me, i can't see why I would want to be in a relationship like that. If I'm having serious doubts and mentally looking over my shoulder to find the guy she's cheating on me with, then I'd really have to wonder what the heck I'm doing with that person anyway. If i went into my partners emails without her consent, whether I found anything or not, I woud break up with her just for violating her trust. I just couldn't be in that type of arrangement. i would have a real hard time looking her in the eye again because of my own weakness, not hers. If i did it once, I'd sure as gawd made green apples, probably do it again and again until I might as well just be pissing into the wind hoping this relationship is gonna work.
And if she did find out that I had snooped for no good cause other than dubious suspicions, i would honestly expect her to terminate our relationship with just cause, and perhaps, even let the whole world know how insecure a partner I would probably make. I would just never ever want to be put into that type of relationship where I'm at the point that I would stoop to snoop to figure out what's wrong with this picture. Just not me, sorry. But i do know in real life, the world is full of folks that think it's OK to snoop. Been there, done that, and at the risk of speaking in an absolute, the relationships were ended quite quickly shortly thereafter. Personally i find snoopers galling, and not a personality trait i happen to find overly endearing..
OP:
How would you handle the situation?
This way:
msg 213:
...in a situation of suspicion I would seek to actually "KNOW" the cause whether that cause is in myself or external and would then seek to act on what I discovered rather than acting on off the shelf versions of what might be the case or hiding behind sweeping generalisations like many have posted because life isnt that simplistic or black and white. And if it was me under suspicion I woudl want to find what I could possibly have done to make that person suspicious of me to begin with with an equal gusto rather than trying to wheel out indignant smoke screens that never solve anything
Good post. | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/16/2008 1:34:20 PM | Good post Sly,
I would like to take a moment here to try and draw a conclusion from all of this. To do that I want to fall back on the two extremes of the situation. One being the total trust scenario, you can read mine and I can read yours and everyones happy. The other being the slightly secretive scenario in which both parties are really just respecting privacy.
In scenario one, if your wanting e-mail truth, (if there is such a thing) Neither party would bother writting any e-mails that would incriminate themselves knowing that each other would read them. Never being able to prove such behavior would make it easier for scenario one to cheat on each other as everything is out in the open in the first place. Since everything is so out in the open and so undefined, perhaps even cheating on each other could be considered okay, since we are such free spirits in the first place.
While scenario two shows definate boundaries in what each other can and can't do, perhaps the issue of trust and the pure definition of respect is so much stronger that one would think twice before committing such an act in the first place. Knowing how this would effect your partner and respecting these guidlines would, in my opinion, make the relationship stronger. Plus give the snooper some proof when it becomes neccasary to end the relationship because one has cheated and for some reason decided to tell all of his of her friends though e-mail.
Sure, I'll buy that. | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/16/2008 2:45:34 PM | Wow talk about an invasion of privacy...
Does she use your credit cards when your not looking also, go through your sock drawer, check your toolbox? Go threw your wallet or dayplanner? Talk about trust issues...
Okay I have been married for 16 yrs and my wife has never read any of my personal emails to others.
Do we have secrets from each other, Yes. (Before you attack me yes she knows Im here on POF and yes we have made some great friends from this site) I have some from my former career that she will never know about.
Granted we do have an email account that both of our family email us at, but my own personal emails she does not read.
Dude, she obviously has some type of trust issues with you. It might just be time to confront her now while you are both still able to walk away from the relationship if the issue can not be resolved that is. | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/16/2008 11:55:38 PM |
For the sake of clarification, I'd ask whether YOU think that a person should be expected to give up ALL privacy within a relationship in order to PROVE that they have “nothing to hide”…
It's not about proof or expactaions dear, it's about being open. No proof required because your are open and honest in the first place.. | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/17/2008 7:02:54 AM |
If you live together there shouldn't be any secrets. .....It's not a matter of 'secrets' its a matter of privacy. Regardless of whether a person has been in a relationship for several months or several years they are still entitled to privacy.
How would I handle the situation?.....I would not have given out my password to begin with. IF I did happen to give my partner my password, then I am also giving them permission to read my emails.....no argument there I'm afraid. | |
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6345
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Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 221 | |
| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/17/2008 7:20:52 AM | Privacy is a big deal in my book, its right next to respect, and trust.
I would not take lightly of it.
Change your password and encrypt your data.
(I had a girlfriend do this) as soon as i changed my password, she saught me out on what I might be trying to hide.
-And So my answer was that if you have a question, just ask. And if you don't trust me or believe me, we shouldn't be together.
Then she started crying. -- So maybe theres a more diplomatic approach IDK.
Basically I share every thing but if some one busted in my house and stole my stuff i would be Pissed. Of course in the event I don't feel like sharing, i shouldn't have to.
Same girl would read my journal (masculine word for diary)
Get worried and write little notes to me in there.
I get a laugh out of it now, but at the time i was really annoyed.
I would geuss you both have differing opinions on the realm of privacy.
I would like to know, is there anything you couldn't ask or speak with this girl about?
Does she have any private thing she could understand not wanting to share? | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/17/2008 11:53:01 AM | slysterling:
I would just never ever want to be put into that type of relationship where I'm at the point that I would stoop to snoop to figure out what's wrong with this picture. Just not me, sorry.
sly, great post.
me: For the sake of clarification, I'd ask whether YOU think that a person should be expected to give up ALL privacy within a relationship in order to PROVE that they have “nothing to hide”…
Johnnyangel47: It's not about proof or expactaions dear, it's about being open. No proof required because your are open and honest in the first place..
That's my point, Johnnyangel. Exactly. | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/17/2008 2:59:11 PM | Gee i should come back and hang out more often in the dating threads more with all these good post congrats etc.
Don't think so though.
Anyways, I didn't say anything really other than hitchhike off of a few of Cunning linguists more salient points. A lot of it boils down to what level of trust your relationship is at. We used to train salespeople about closed mind levels of thinking, open minded levels, belief minded levels and confident belief levels. I won't go into a big long lecture on the differences in the states of mind between two people at these various levels, but if i don't believe in my partner, then she's not my partner. It really doesn't get too complicated with me. We either trust each other, or we don't have a relationship happening. And trust is seldom given lightly hopefully by both parties.
Like i said earlier, this one's been kicked around and around so i won't bother repeating a lot of old war stories that we told last year on similar threads to this one, but one partner in particular still stands out like a sore thumb.
It was 2001 and the girl i was with had gone thru the wringer with a number of cheating boyfriends and a bit of a scamp for an ex-husband in her time, and unknown to me at the time was actually undergoing counselling for some issues, both legal and non-legal. Not only did she chronically break into my emails, she sent nasty emails to female clients of mine telling them to back off if they knew what was good for them. She also somehow managed to hardwire my office phone such that all calls to my office also showed up at her home. We weren't technically living together, but we did sleep together most nights. She was just under the misguided impression that because men had cheated on her before, that all men must be cheats. Bit of a breakdown in logic, but it was her logic, not mine.
Anyway, to make a long story short, upon my discovery of these various goings on, she felt not the slightest tinge of remorse for fecking over my business as well as breaking some federal laws. As a matter of fact she was quite defiant in telling me that all girls snoop and all girls call forward their boyfriends phone calls. I'm not sure if she actually meant all girls do it, or just all the girls she hung with. But I was almost sick when she laid this on me, and being the sick puppy I already am, it does indeed take quite a bit to make me sick. I didn't date another woman for almost five years after experiencing a relationship with her.
Most of my friends around town couldn't understand why i didn't go ahead and have her charged and imprisoned, but as if i would want to be known as a guy that had a single mum put behind bars. I told her to count her blessings that i'm really too busy to be bothered with all that aggravation, but, that someday, the next guy might not be.
And sure as god made green apples, the next guy wasn't too busy as she pulled the same stunt on him about a year and a half later. He wanted me to testify that she had done the same thing to me, but i declined the opportunity. He gave her no quarter on his privacy though. He had her charged. She did some time in the bighouse, plus was fined some pretty hefty fines which pretty much put her on foreclosure street, and would have lost her kids as well, had they not by then been of legal age.
I won't even let a lady check her own emails from my computer. I did one morning when a lady had stayed over and afterwards the machine was crawling with spyware. I occassionally dabble at fixing computers for friends and the two people that showed me how to fix computers always told me don't let anyone ever use your own computer. So i don't anymore. I need a lot of special settings to get into some websites i have access to, and even a yahoo toolbar will shut all these settings down, so I prefer nobody touch my little pc here.
But that's just me.
So snoopers beware. There is no right way to do the wrong thing, and you can face some pretty severe consequences from your actions.. Better to negotiate and discuss your issues than to break into someone elses computer. Because that is against the law.
Folks can try and justify it till the ends of the earth, but it's just hot air as far as I'm concerned.
If i break into nomadic's computer to see if she's cheating or fooling around on me, what is the difference between that aspect of broken trust and cheating, and if she actually was fooling around on me. Both are violations of trust and we're both skulking around living lives full of denial and untruth. What a horrible way to live.. 2 wrongs do not make a right is the way i was raised, and thats why I wouldn't break into someone's computer to find out if they broke our trust. I would find, or at least try to find, another way to confirm my suspicions, if i had any. But some people are honestly just chronic snoops, and for those, I have little in the way of compassion and empathy. Understand it? Yes a bit. Accept it? Never.
Life is too busy and too darn short to waste time with foks like that.
Just an opinion.
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BunnyD
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Joined: 3/28/2006
Msg: 224 | |
| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/17/2008 6:28:20 PM | | My now ex accused me of cheating on him - the fact is that I didn't - but it was how he accused me that ruined our relationship. He said he used my computer and a friend who lives in Mexico sent rude messages to me - instead of talking with me about it, the ex kept these little bits of information stored away until one day I came home and found a note on my computer which I didn't password protect because I wanted to build the trust between us. The note said: 'I know you cheated - I read the emails - hope he was worth it'. The person I was to have cheated with was in Mexico - Mexico of all places - definitely not just down the street from me. The ex had waited until I was in the shower to leave his note for me, and he had left the apartment without any indication of when he was coming back. He would not answer his cell phone. He, also, used his own computer, and I foolishly trusted him and hoped that he would talk with me about any concerns or anything that was coming up and coming between us. After that, I tried my best to be the perfect girlfriend, only to find out he had been seeing someone else within months after he accused me. Daily, I received little barbs, shots, criticisms, being pushed away, and ultimately, complete removal of myself from my ex's life - while trying to reach out to him to resolve things - without so much as an acknowledgement of his willingness to clutch so strongly to his earlier accusations. The chronic trail of lies, deceit, and tears shed over someone who would not be honest and open with me took their toll. Would I read my partner's emails? I would never again want to be with someone like this person - someone who would carry any type of seed of doubt about me in his mind and use it to justify his punishing me. The last two years being with this person until I kicked him out, were the most horrific years of my life, and I don't know how I will ever be able to trust again, yet I know it is something I will need to re-learn. Having shared all of this, I have to ask - what kind of person would do this to another - read their email; be secretive; be deceptive; be dishonest, and so contemptively accusing of someone they said they loved... certainly, this cannot be the norm of relationships today, can it? I await your replies - to see if maybe there is something wrong with the way I look at how a relationship should be - maybe honest and open isn't the way relationships are meant to be today? | |
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| Reading your partner's emails...how serious an offence?
Posted: 2/17/2008 9:40:14 PM | | If the guy I was seeing read my personal email without my knowledge...It would be soo over..The person has no right to invade your email and I believe there is a trust issue if someone needs to pry as well. | |
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