| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/15/2008 10:33:30 AM | ^^^^^^
Ok.
And your facts are...where,again?
Thinking something...and show proof that you think is not just an opinion, but fact, are two different things.
Roger Clemens pitched somewhat better AFTER he was alleged to have taken steroids.
Unless there was a study done on him at that time comparing his "pre-steroid" performance w/ his alleged "post-steroid" performances...then anything said would be.....wait for it...SPECULATION.
And w/o since more people than those who have come forward, are likely to have taken steroids and they showed little or no enhancement to their performance, it may well be that steroids and PED's only work on SOME people.
Or they don't work at all.
Let's try to stay on point, here.
Which is Roger Clemens and his laughable performance in front of Congress.
Which I'm sure will come back to haunt him more than his silence ever would have. | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/15/2008 12:31:51 PM | Thinking something...and show proof that you think is not just an opinion, but fact, are two different things. you got me there
there are many scientific studies that have been done in the past and are presently occuring. i am not going to educate you by supplying these references. open your eyes. how many world records or gold medals have been forfeited because of PES use? you ever watch wrestling? notice anything unusual about the size of the actors? thats just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to proof that is available if society chooses to take their blinders off. we are never going to know when roger clemens started taking PES unless one day roger decides to come clean. for your information steroids were around before 1984 so it is possible that he could of taken them his entire professional career.
presently for the most part this discussion is speculatory. somebody is wrong and somebody is right. thats undeniable. my theorys just make a lot more sense than yours. PES do have dramatic effects on the users. to say that they might only work on some people and or that they dont work at all is absurd. i went to highschool in the early ninetys and my school was pretty small and isolated. i know for a fact that there were several members of the football team using steroids. the results were dramatic. they became physically more muscular and mentally more agressive. the size helped them with power which benefited them on the field. the added agression was another benefit in the sports world. being able to turn on an aggression switch more easily is extremely beneficial when playing sports. i do not need irrefutable evidence to form a intelligent opinion on the effects of PES. regardless of how much proof there is available there is always going to be ways of discrediting something anyway.
i asked if PES have the ability to make decisions. how do PES manage to differentiate between highly skilled athletes and all the rest of people. i am very curious to hear your explanation. | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/16/2008 7:11:17 AM | Will Clemens be the next Pete Rose?
ie: Denied access to the Hall of Fame until he admits to using steroids?
(And perhaps even then not being allowed in.) | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/16/2008 8:32:48 AM | | well if they dont let rose in , i dont see how they would let clemens or bonds in, rose got in trouble after we was done playing ( he was a manager ), rose would go in as a player not a manager, so i guess if they dont allow rose , how would they allow the one that cheated while they were players, that would be something if the all time leaders in hits, homeruns and cy youngs all were not in the hall of fame | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/16/2008 9:34:08 AM | | The problem I have with them not allowing Rose in is that he didn't do anything to enhance his performance; in other words the way he played and what he accomplished was all Rose with no drugs. With Bonds and Clemens, they accomplished what they did with the help of steroids, supposedly. Rose bet on games, for crying out loud, and they weren't against his team, so I don't really see the logic in keeping him out, but I guess they figured he tarnished the game...for him I think he should be in, but anyone who used PED should not be allowed. | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/16/2008 9:46:16 AM |
there are many scientific studies that have been done in the past and are presently occuring. i am not going to educate you by supplying these references. open your eyes. how many world records or gold medals have been forfeited because of PES use? you ever watch wrestling? notice anything unusual about the size of the actors? thats just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to proof that is available if society chooses to take their blinders off. we are never going to know when roger clemens started taking PES unless one day roger decides to come clean. for your information steroids were around before 1984 so it is possible that he could of taken them his entire professional career
Amazing how your postings always lack facts.
If you say there are studies...then name them.
If not, why bring them up?
presently for the most part this discussion is speculatory. somebody is wrong and somebody is right. thats undeniable. my theorys just make a lot more sense than yours. PES do have dramatic effects on the users. to say that they might only work on some people and or that they dont work at all is absurd. i went to highschool in the early ninetys and my school was pretty small and isolated. i know for a fact that there were several members of the football team using steroids. the results were dramatic. they became physically more muscular and mentally more agressive. the size helped them with power which benefited them on the field. the added agression was another benefit in the sports world. being able to turn on an aggression switch more easily is extremely beneficial when playing sports. i do not need irrefutable evidence to form a intelligent opinion on the effects of PES. regardless of how much proof there is available there is always going to be ways of discrediting something anyway.
The word is spelled "theories."
And you don't seem to have any.
If PED's and steroids work...why don't they seem to work for most people that take them?
Intelligent opinion.....are you capable of that?
Roger Clemens was the subject...
Try sticking to the subject. | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/16/2008 11:23:57 AM | | whatever cocy, your post are empty of meaning.you dont even try to remain on track within the forum. now you are focused on me. you whine about me not providing you with factual evidence. im not your errand boy. i can produce study after study with a few key words entered into almost any search engine. im sure you can find someone to hold your hand for you and walk you through the procedure. i have wasted enough time on you. i dont give a shite about my spelling, obviously. you just pointed that petty point out so you could be right about something, good for you. feel better now? you keep making ridiculous statements and avoiding my questions. you made a statement that is absolutley absurd, steroids only benefit top tier athletes or that might not have any benefit at all. that is plain and simply utter stupidity. i am not the best speller but at least i have common sense and some basic deductive reasoning skills. since you no longer have anything of value to say im done with you, bye bye | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/16/2008 3:06:17 PM | | three years after he retired rose agreed to permanent ineligibility. the reason he agreed to this condition was because baseball promised to not pursue the gambling allegations any further. rose was aware of the proof that MLB posessed and folded like a cheap suit. if he never bet against his own team i dont feel he would of done that. he admitted his guilt in 2004 (partially) in the gambling issues that he was accused of. roger clemens and barry bonds have not been found guilty of anything up til this point and have not admitted anything. pete rose, or charlie hustle, was a amazing player. he was certainly in a league of his own. even though he has never admitted to betting against his own team that he coached i believe he did. pete rose placed daily wagers on the team he coached. rose was so consumed with his gambling addiction that he was not always concerned with winning the game. he considered the bets he placed and tried to tweak the games accordingly. i feel it is a shame that a player of roses caliber is denied the hall of fame but i think it is warranted. i hope more evidence surfaces against bonds and clemens that will make their guilt even more obvious. | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/16/2008 4:38:51 PM | ^^^finally realizing that Clemons is guilty eh. | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/16/2008 5:23:00 PM | I don't think they could/should keep Clemens out of the Hall of Fame unless he is proven guilty, which he has NOT. There hasn't been enough conclusive evidence to convict him. He may be guilty, but there hasn't been proof. When it comes time to vote for induction to the Hall of Fame, hopefully there will be proof either way.
I'm not sure why so many are so quick to assume Clemens is guilty. It's one man's word over another's , I'm sorry that isn't enough. This is not me defending Clemens, it's just fact that he hasn't been proven guilty. | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/16/2008 8:51:57 PM | ^
....i may be mistaken but 'proof' of guilt is not a pre-requisite for exclusion into the HOF.
He may be guilty, but there hasn't been proof.
....what kind of proof are you looking for?
....what if someone came up with a canceled check written by Clemens made out to some drug distributor (such as Balco) for the purchase of a steroid or hgh...would that constitute as enuff proof that he had used it for himself?
...what if some other individual (other than Macnamee) came forth and states that he saw Clemens inject something into himself......would that suffice as full proof that he was injecting steroids or hgh?
...what if someone produced a recording stating that it was a conversation in which Clemens admitted that he was injecting steroids....would that be considered as air-tite proof?
---------------------------------
here is what you have now:
a) his long time personal trainer who states that he had injected clemens (and others) with hgh..........although he has lied (mainly for self preservation) in the past, he had less motive to do so at his testimony.
b) his long time best friend, Andy petitte( a stand up guy) whose testimony (and that of his wife) states that clemens revealed to him that he used hgh...........in Clemens' retort, he would have us believe that Petitte was mistaking him for his wife.
c) other players who admitted using hgh who were connected with Mcnamee, as well as Clemens own wife.......but Clemens would have us believe that he himself did not touch the stuff, yet he supposedly allowed his wife to be injected (for reasons unknown) with a substance: 1) that he supposedly never took himself, 2) that was injected into her (by Mcnamee) without his approval, yet he continued to employ Mr. Mcnamee thereafter.
------------------------------
.........what other kind of information would you need? | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/17/2008 7:08:40 AM | only after the recently provided evidence against clemens has my opinion changed from neutral to i feel he is more likely guilty than innocent. for those who thinks its funny that im finally realizing his guilt you are the people i have been laughing at the whole time. since wenesdays congressional soap opera many respected legal analysts have been asked what thier opinion was in reference to the likely hood of roger being convicted based on the current level of evidence available. everyone that i have heard has said that there is not a chance that he will be convicted of anything without any further evidence. although the american judicial system sometimes resembles the "any given sunday" philosophy. a bunch of "what ifs" do nothing for me but apparently "what ifs" have been enough for the majority of people before wenesdays latest evidence introductions.
what kind of evidence would i want to be more resolved in my opinion? how about a positive drug test for starters. what about an admission from clemens himself. i want more "credible" witnesses alleging first hand knowledge of clemens steroid use. i want legitimate proof not tabloid proof and what ifs. hopefully more relevent information will come to light | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/17/2008 7:19:24 AM | I totally agree with you fishernick. A positive drug test would be a start and only a start. There has been too much lying and I'm not sure who is doing the lying. Many assume that Clemens is the liar without proof. I'd like to see a polygraph test given by an objective party. This along with a drug test would be sufficiant proof of guilt or innocence.
I'd also like to say that I'm not really a Clemens fan. I'm a Bluejay fan and baseball fan. I just want everyone to have a fair trial before conviction. | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/17/2008 8:33:02 AM | | they found o.j. not guilty, so does that mean u dont think he did either, if u are looking for the smokin gun ( positive drug test ) in this case u are not going to get it, that does not mean we can not use common sense. mcnamee has lied in the past, most of them lies were to cover up for the people that he was working for , the same people that later said he was telling the truth now, well all except clemens. i hate to admit it , but we need to face the facts that this era of baseball was dirty, they cheated plain and simple, well atleast we still have ken griffey jr to look up to, i guess when its all said and done maybe we should look at him as the best of this generation, thats my opinion! | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/17/2008 10:27:48 AM | | I think that O.J was guilty. He was found innocent because the jury and lawyers did a poor job of finding evidence. When O.J was asked to see if the glove fit and he tried it on over another glove, of course it won't fit, this case was held poorly. In that case I think O.J was guilty, but I think that Clemens is innocent. I seem to be in the minority so maybe I'm wrong. | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/17/2008 3:01:56 PM | | you know pickmy maybe you are one of the only ones whos right, about his innocence. as far as i was concerned before wenesday there was no legitimate evidence against clemens. there still is no definitive proof or even close. pettitte and the details about rogers wife really shifted my opinion. maybe debbie clemens just made a grossly idiotic error in judgement. who knows? we were not there. pettittes word is not absolute. i would like to hear more from pettitte about his testimony and have him corroborate his statements. i am still not sure why andy was not there on wenesday. his presence would have really established credability for his testimony. the aspect that bothers me about the pettitte testimony is that the two of them are supposed to be very good friends. andy says that him and roger only spoke on the subject of PES on two occassions, and on the second time roger denied the first instance. that seems very unrealistic to me. these men played on the same team for nine years(i think). all that time spent traveling and training together and only two conversations? very fishy. i want roger to be proven innocent. i am sick of people i have admired and respected being discredited and humiliated publically. humiliation is entertaining though i guess. | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/17/2008 5:06:49 PM | .........in case anyone here doesn't know it.
-There is NO approved test to determine if someone has been administered Hgh!
-Andy petite is about as credible of a testimony as any one is gonna get!
-Thirdly, for anyone who thinks Clemens is gonna somehow come forth (after his congressional hearing in which he denied using steroids) and admit guilt.....you'll have a better chance of hearing OJ simpson admit that he's guilty of the double murder!
.....either way don't hold your breath....unless you prefer having a bluish hue to your skin!
nuff' said! | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/17/2008 6:34:16 PM | Well this is a tough one, but I would have to say that yes Roger Clemens, along with many other guys, is guilty if using steriods.
I think Jose Canseco really opened up a BIG can of worms by his book a few years back and since then it's been all about steriods and now nobody is safe from being accused of taking steriods. Ironically enough here, the guy who started all this steriod publicity Jose Canseco, is the one who appears to have taken/still takes the MOST steriods of them all lol. How Ironic. | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/18/2008 12:48:17 PM | you know pickmy maybe you are one of the only ones whos right, about his innocence. as far as i was concerned before wenesday there was no legitimate evidence against clemens. there still is no definitive proof or even close. pettitte and the details about rogers wife really shifted my opinion. maybe debbie clemens just made a grossly idiotic error in judgement. who knows? we were not there. pettittes word is not absolute. i would like to hear more from pettitte about his testimony and have him corroborate his statements. i am still not sure why andy was not there on wenesday. his presence would have really established credability for his testimony. the aspect that bothers me about the pettitte testimony is that the two of them are supposed to be very good friends. andy says that him and roger only spoke on the subject of PES on two occassions, and on the second time roger denied the first instance. that seems very unrealistic to me. these men played on the same team for nine years(i think). all that time spent traveling and training together and only two conversations? very fishy. i want roger to be proven innocent. i am sick of people i have admired and respected being discredited and humiliated publically. humiliation is entertaining though i guess.
must be a yankees fan, there is evidence, its called common sense | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/18/2008 1:24:48 PM | | another addition to the PES soap apera played out today with the andy pettitte press conference. with giardi to his right and cashman to his left pettitte went through his hour long press conference. before the conference began it was stated by the yankees organization that this would be the one and only time andy addressed these issues and that there would be no restrictions on the questions topics. after watching the whole thing i am sure that the no restrictions statement was a bunch of BS. he would not comment on any questions concerning how he felt about roger clemens misheard and misremembering comments. andy only said that mcnamee told the truth about pettitte and the testimony that he (pettitte) provided was truthful. i wanted andy to say i remember that conversation like it happened yesterday and i am not lying, roger clemens is the one lying. andy pettitte said he was sorry and that he made a mistake. if he could do it all over again he would not take HGH. so with mo, jorgy and derek there for support andy made it through this difficult day. i wish his statements regarding his and rogers conflicting testimony could have been addressed more decisively, but this is what we are left with. this episode slightly strenghtened my opinion that roger is guilty. | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/18/2008 8:38:20 PM | Clemens and Bonds were Hall of Famers before their steroid use.
Now they will be and should be denied entry due to there lies.
I would be much more simpathetic if they had simply told the truth.
The writers who vote do not need a criminal conviction to vote "no", just an examination of the overwhelming facts. These two cheated and they compounded this by lieing to baseball, to the fans and to Congress.
For these two, the Hall of Fame is ... "Loooong Gone"! | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/19/2008 9:51:32 AM | Nobody has even mentioned the statistical evidence yet either. Did anyone notice the way that Roger Clemens went from being a washed up pitcher with the Boston Red Sox to a back to back Cy Young award winner with the Toronto Blue Jays? He pitched two of the finest seasons of his career in Toronto - right around the time he met McName.
Barry Bonds experienced a similar statistical spike after he began taking roids in the early 2000's. He grew so much that his head actually got larger (not just his ego). That was no accident. He saw McGwire break the home run record on steroids and he figured he'd do the same.
Both of guys are guilty. The trouble baseball has is that there were no rules against it at the time. MLB turned a blind eye to it. There were rules against betting on baseball, but as far as roids went it was anything goes. | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/19/2008 10:26:55 AM | | i agree with you , i think they both cheated also, i aslo think they should pay the price when it comes to the hall of fame, if pete rose is not getting in , then there not getting in, but i do find it hard the double standard there is, i mean charger vs patroits in the afc championship game , both of them teams had players that got suspened for steroids use, but i didt hear the uproar then, odd isnt? and on top of that the charger went to the pro-bowl, that is rewarding bad behavior is it not? i like football more then baseball, but i wonder if we keep giving the nfl a free pass , if years from now we will be looking at football and saying they turned a blind eye like we are looking at baseball right now, just a question! | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 2/19/2008 11:44:45 AM | | it is not a question about whether or not society is looking at sports through blind eyes. they are looking at baseball through a microscope and the press and society look at all other sports with blind eyes. its a huge double standard. i said it before and i will say it again. fan of sports other than baseball should be happy that baseball is taking the brunt of the assault. the press is overhyping the baseball press to deflect attention away from the real issues like the NFL the number one abuser of PES. it is marketing genious at work | |
|
| roger clemens...
Posted: 4/28/2008 8:53:43 PM | Just saw on ESPN that there is a report originating from the NY Daily News that Clemens has had a long term affair with country singer Mindy McCready, starting when she was 15. She has had a lot of problems, been arrested several times the last few years, was hospitalized with a drug overdose. They also reported that he helped her when she was in jail last year in Tennessee and has helped her financially with huge sums of money. The Clemens camp acknowledges she is a family friend but denies it anything more.
This could get interesting. | |
|
Home
login 
