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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/21/2008 3:48:14 AM | | It's not just in Quebec that one can find narromindedness. I work in customer service on the phone. (until they outsource to India I still have a job) I have a colleague who can speak English well enough to be understood, but has quite the Quebecois accent. Actually, he doesn't call himself Quebecois, he calls himself "French Canadian". (like me, he has family in Quebec, Ontario and all over Canada even) Anyway, an English speaking caller upon hearing his greeting said, "I want to speak to a Canadian." He answered, "well I am Canadian sir... " The caller responded, "no you're not, you live in Quebec", and abruptly hung up. The caller wasn't an anglo Quebecker by the way. So you see, both the French and English speakers can be asses. I personally never have problems with either since I speak both standard English and French. (my French even has a "soft" European flavour to it since I lived with a Swiss fella for five years, and still hang out with a good friend of mine who is from Morocco) Unless I tell English speakers my family name, they would never know that I am French Canadian. In the end, I often tell people that I am a child of the Trudeau era. While I believe in personal freedoms, I do find the anglo population in Quebec that refuses to speak french quite shocking... and narrow minded. So if the French speaking population goes overboard with protecting their language, I think sometimes it has a lot to do with the attitude from the other side as well. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/21/2008 6:18:05 AM |
I dont believe it. This sounds like an American thread complaining about preserving the english language from being overtaken by spanish. Yet we are labeled racist, you consider yourselves preserving the frence language.
There's roughly 7.5 million Quebecers, and perhaps 85 percent French (roughly). They are surrounded on all sides by a sea of English speaking people.
America is the predominant culture on the planet, and it's particular style of English is the one that even impacts on other countries worldwide through it's media. You can find traces of that all over this planet.
Americans number over 30o million, and have essentially only two small areas (overall) where they have borders with places speaking other languages - Mexico and Quebec.
American English is in no way in danger of being eliminated, but Quebec French certainly could be. In either culture, in any culture, they only way to really ensure it's survival is for it to be taught at home to your children.
One of my classic counter-arguments when arguing with nationalists here is to ask them a very simple question.
How come Italian Quebecers can pretty much thrive as a community, their kids (almost all) can speak Italian, and they have a good sense of most other aspects of being Italian. The same can be said of almost every other ethnic community here in Quebec.
None of those languages are "protected" , and those cultures continue without any fear. Instead of the American "melting pot" mentality, our ethnic communities still tend to retain at least some aspects of their respective cultures after immigration.
I ask the nationalists why French, with all it's "protection" of the language, always speaks of it's danger of extinction ? A well known French journalist (and later politician) did an entire documentary about a decade ago ( "The Disappeared" ) claiming that French would be extinct within a generation - WITH "protection". 
One of the revealing things about this debate is it's inability to speak the unspeakable truth, one that few (except for men like Pierre Trudeau) dared to utter. The only way to take on the nationalists is directly, and without the fear they typically use as their weapon against their own people.
If French Quebec is to survive as a nation, that will depend on French Canadian mothers and fathers teaching their children.
If French Quebec is to grow and have a future, then those children better start learning English, and other languages, at least as well as those of the nationalist. You are not lessened by speaking another language, you are made better for it. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/23/2008 6:58:20 AM | "One of my classic counter-arguments when arguing with nationalists here is to ask them a very simple question.
How come Italian Quebecers can pretty much thrive as a community, their kids (almost all) can speak Italian, and they have a good sense of most other aspects of being Italian. The same can be said of almost every other ethnic community here in Quebec. "
Hey Montreal....there's your quote. I asked the same question...of natives. I got called every name in the book for even bringing it up! Sheesh....some people get away with anything!
I have to agree though...it makes sense. I like the idea that my kids can read, write and speak fluently in two languages...and one may be working on a third (spanish). I can't do that...I wasn't raised with that influence. Languages are difficult to pick up after you are 35...and I always found languages difficult to learn...almost imposiible. Maths...I can hold my own in. But conjugate the verb "avoir"...forget it... | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/23/2008 4:09:23 PM | Well, this hits close to home.
This latest incident is actually quite silly. Let's make an Irish pub.....less Irish.
( And the Irish intermarried FAR more with French Canadians than the English and Scots did.)
On the other hand, I do agree with the fact that the French language needs to be protected in the ocean of English that surrounds it. That has to be done properly though. Idiotic government officials are certainly not exceptional things, worldwide. This is the case here.
I wish someone would do a nice little article about how Quebec nationalist politicians send their kids to private English/bilingual schools. I wonder why ?
In fact, one of the best ways to spot a really die hard nationalist is by how well they speak English ....Pauline Marois being a notable exception. With that huge raging threat that, to her, is threatening French at every turn...she seems to have escaped it's grasp. .
In fact the greatest danger to Quebec culture and society comes from within. In just the last two decades the global media reach has transformed much of Quebec societies uniqueness into a pale imitation of the general Americanized one.
We use to be very distinct, with TV shows that were as different as night and day to even English Canada, much less the America model. That's almost all gone now, and we have bad copies of "Big Brother" , "American Idol", and almost every other show you can think of.
It's the same with our music scene. We went from "Beau Dommage" to bad copies of Britney Spears.
We have met the enemy, and it is us.
I couldn't agree more with you, MontrealGuy. that's what i always thought about us. We are our own worst ennemy. and we gotta stop blaming others. some of the worst anti-french red necks i've met out here, strangely, have french blood. that is the result of angry FRENCH quebeckers, ashamed of their french heritage.
It's extremely frightening.
but all in all, Quebec is a GREAT place to live. but a lot of french speaking quebeckers (federalists towards sovereignists especially) have hatred towards one another. instead of just sticking together like brothers and sisters. its a shame... 
if it wasn't for that, Quebec wouldn't only be the richest province in Canada (instead of one of the poorest)
It would be a country by now. :(
MontrealGuy:
How come Italian Quebecers can pretty much thrive as a community, their kids (almost all) can speak Italian, and they have a good sense of most other aspects of being Italian. The same can be said of almost every other ethnic community here in Quebec.
Again, i agree. The main problem with french quebeckers, is they think they will protect their language with stupid laws. it might work temporarily. but not for long.
I love italian cultures because for them, FAMILY is sacred. its not something they take for granted. like quebeckers and Canadians do.
The main problem with Quebec society (as well as Canadian) it's simple really: Values
Traditional family values? GONE
Social responsibilities? GONE
How about the birth rate? The lowest in the WORLD [that's what happens when a society is too busy promoting the death of thousands of babies. D-I-S-G-U-S-T-I-N-G]
Quebec, je t'aime.
Mais je n'aime pas ce que tu est devenue... | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/23/2008 4:46:03 PM | It's nice to know America is not the only home for the anal retentive!
We have signs from the 50's ~ Whites Only ~and old tabacco advertizing ~ featuring Cartoon characters of negro's ~with accentuating ` large lips and noses. While all a part of our history, these signs are now unacceptable~ and no longer displayed in public.
There is pressure to closet the "Stars & Bars" as well ` ~~~ you got to draw a line somewhere~ thin skinned nuts will run your country or ruin your country. Sanitize it of your culture. ~ Hide from the truth! ~ pretend it never happened.
Zero tolerance for anything "I" refuse to byoff on! ~ It's a sickness of an academian.
It my feeling that if you don't understand your roots ~ and know where you have been it's easy to get lost in the future.
One ~ Black Granite Wall with thousands of names of the dead on it ~~~ Is not enough for America to remember ~~ maybe we need hundreds of such walls.
Offer resistance to this my Canadian friends ~
~dar | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/23/2008 5:44:11 PM | (QUOTE 'American English is in no way in danger of being eliminated, but Quebec French certainly could be. In either culture, in any culture, they only way to really ensure it's survival is for it to be taught at home to your children.
END OF QUOTE}
- Sorry, I disagree . French is thriving in Northern Ontario where I use to live, and without laws to protect it. Furthermore, they also know English which serves them well in doing business with those 300 million Americans and 25 million other Canadians.
Allowing Irish Pubs, Chinese restauraunts, to use English or Chinese in their establishments, is not a threat at all to French Culture or their language. The biggest danger to the French culture and language in Quebec is the drain when well educated Quebecois leave the province for lack of oppurtunity.
Most of this has been well pointed out by Montreal Guy the author of the above quote already , and a lot better than I am able too . | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/23/2008 6:41:10 PM | as a solution or peace offering to english speakers in quebec, the school systems have lowered thier age limit and started "educating" students in english at younger ages. i believe now the teaching begins at 2nd grade and remains through out the public schooling system. i have two children who are currently involved in the school system. i have to say that in my opinion the school my children are attending shows little ability to teach the english language. my children have an advantage because they speak english already. recently after having perpetually top of the class grades one of my children recieved a 50% grade in english. i was baffled. i calmly investigated the situation. even though generally my kids behave well i did not discount that they could be the problem. i talked it over with the child in question and they told me that everything had been normal. nothing had changed, they participated as usual, did thier homework and did fine on the tests. eventually the teacher was approached and questioned. apparently the teacher was not even aware that my child could even speak english, slight oversight. at my childrens school i would estimate that less than 10% of the students can speak english. i am still not clear as to why my child was given the grades they recieved because the situation has not reached a conclusion as of yet. i guess what i am trying to say is that in the school my children attend they do not take the prospect of teaching (or grading) english very seriously. watching english movies and reciting the alphabet year after year just does not cut it. fortunatley i am not depending on the system to teach my kids english.
i read a comment earlier that was something about the french speakers in quebec thinking they speak english better than they actually do. so true. when i came here i came under the guise that it was a mainly bilingual city. BS. that is not even close to being true. the funny thing is when you talk to someone from here they truly think that most people do speak english. one poster mentioned going into a store and the clerk could not speak french so they walked out. i bet that clerk could not speak english either. i have become an expert at charades and non verbal comunication. typically the accents are so thick that i have all i can do to understand if i ever get that far. i am an outsider in montreal. i am learning french. there is nothing wrong with protecting your heritage. its really none of my buisness.
maybe i should make it clear that i am only talking about montreal. i realize quebec is large and i know little about montreal and even less about the rest of quebec | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/25/2008 1:37:50 AM | I find the Irish pub situation just ridiculous... and imagine - hope - after having made the public point, that saner heads will eventually prevail and they will escape fines.
Still, I think the sign/language laws serve a useful purpose not raised yet... Tourism. I've forgotten how much tourism $$'s are brought into the province (and, yes, focused primarily on Montreal and Quebec City), but the last time I looked it up it was a considerable chunk of change. The magnet is a "foreign" experience that is still "close to home." Creeping english language signage visibly erodes this experience... ultimately would hurt the tourism industry in quebec.
MontrealGuy... was disappointed to hear the quality of french entertainment has eroded. I've often pointed to how vibrant and talented the industry is in quebec as an example of what ROC could be if we could get out from under our reliance/addiction to US properties. (a girl can fantasize can't she? *grins*) | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/25/2008 8:59:41 AM | "French is thriving in Northern Ontario"
If only you could call THAT french... Franco Ontarians... especially up North, speak a terrible french, and an equally terrible english... not as bad as Acadians... but not too far from it... with the influence of French immigration, (morocco, haiiti, algeria, etc etc) Quebec french has actually improved a bit. Although I would be happy to see the P-quiste put their money where their mouth is, and reform the French language to the point that it would be up to par with its European counterparts. Maybe then the international community would take the Quebec protectionist laws a little more seriously. As a friend of mine pointed out, "Quebec is protecting a language that they can't even speak/write properly". | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 3/3/2008 10:50:23 AM | Strictly speaking, I cannot agree with the OP (dunrich) that the language laws are "undemocratic". They were duly enacted by a democratically elected National Assembly, so they are not properly speaking "undemocratic".
As a bilingual anglophone who moved here from outside of Quebec, my initial and instinctive reaction to Bill 101 and the OQLF is one of hostility, but my attitude has evolved somewhat.
I think its important to understand that the OQLF, like many governmental institutions in this province, has become a self-perpetuating bureaucracy, meaning that its main activity seems to be attempting to justify its own continued existence, despite the fact that it has become increasingly apparent to many people (with the exception of the hardcore zealots whose attitudes are fixed in stone and will simply never evolve) that the OQLF has become obsolete as a result of its own success. The English-French argument on the Island of Montreal is basically over, and French won, which is why the activities of the OQLF come off as ridiculous and petty harassment.
In a very personal example, I spent some 9 months in a 100% French (and very, very intensive) course of study, terminating in a grueling two-day exam. Every text was in French, every class was in French, every assignment was in French, every test was in French, every discussion was in French, every communication with the bureaucracy responsible for organizing it was in French.
And at the end? Of course, the final hurdle was...a test with the OQLF. To prove that I could speak and read French.
The irony would be fun, if one was not acutely conscious that the bureaucrat drawing a government salary to administer the test (a very pleasant woman, it must be said) is getting paid out of tax dollars.
In my personal opinion, the patent harassment of McKibbens appears almost rational by comparison, in that it makes some kind of (albeit twisted) sense.
The truth is that the vast majority of younger anglophones are perfectly capable of working and communicating in French, and those that cannot develop that fluency tend to leave to other parts of the country.
The point about the children of the Francophone elite going to English-language schools and speaking better English than most Anglophones should not come as news to anyone who has even a limited grasp of what is really going on in this culture. Speak to most young, well educated francophones and they will certainly tell you (with a trademark cynicism) that they are well aware that lack of fluency in English is generally an e-ticket to lower-class status, whereas fluency has the opposite effect. The young well-educated elite among the Francophones may decry this situation and speak in emotive terms about the French fact and so forth, but when push comes to shove, it is cold-hearted economic rationality that wins, and they learn English as best they can, just as the young Anglos learn French as best they can because the other choice is economic marginalization.
The real issue going into the future is the fact that Montreal is going the way of Toronto. The English-French divide is melting away into a multiethnic metropolis, and the truth is that there is a pretty large values 'disconnect' between the post-Quiet Revolution francophones and the vast array of newcomers. The anti-clerical, secularist, rationalist, pro-feminist, quasi-socialist, sexually libertarian, hedonistic and pro-big-government values that most (and there are always exceptions) francophone Quebecois have adopted, do not have much "traction" with many immigrant groups, and never have. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 3/10/2008 5:59:24 PM | and were very anxious to separate from Canada and their abusers; many of them thought it would be great to be American instead of Canadian.
I often wondered if that were to happen, what would make them think the americans would want people who thought and acted that way, anymore than the rest of us in Canada. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 3/11/2008 10:35:12 AM | I often wondered if that were to happen, what would make them think the americans would want people who thought and acted that way, anymore than the rest of us in Canada.
I wondered that too! The way I see it, Americans are Americans first, then Texans, or Floridians, or whatever state they belong to. In Canada, Quebecers are allowed to be Quebecers first, then Canadian (although alot don't even admit to that, lol). If they were an American state they would not be able to keep their identity the way they are allowed to in Canada (and encouraged by laws, i.e. notwithstanding clause, which was passed for Quebec basically). The American identity would come first if they were American, then French - not the other way around, like it is now in Quebec.
Although, on the other hand, as a poster in another thread (the immigration one, I think) mentioned, the United States doesn't have an official language - so maybe the french sign issue wouldn't be an issue after all!
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 3/11/2008 11:03:25 AM | As a person who's ethnic background that consists of both Aboriginal & European Heritages (a mixture of six different nations), I often wonder why one certain language/culture should take precedence over others.
I think that some aspects of Quebec's French Language Law really need to be amended & relaxed to ensure that every language be treated with the same respect that the French has for thier own language.
As they say, "Variety is the spice of Life".... | |
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