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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 26 | |
| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 1:37:55 AM | This is an interesting question OP and it made me sit and think before I charged in here with my thoughts on the issue. I feel it depends on the situation as well as the person.
Some people utilize "Let's be friends" as a cop out, which translated means, "It's just not going to happen". There are times when people are just friends and interact on a daily basis and they get to know one another as merely that friends, and sometimes things grow, but I must say, speaking from a woman's point of view, it can definitely go both ways, sometimes when two people are friends, it is "weird" to think of someone as more if it's an established friendship, and sometimes either gender can choose to "not go there" not wanting to ruin the friendship, for we all know, the most fast way to ruin a good friendship with the opposite sex is to fall into their bed.
Great question OP!!!! | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 3:51:25 AM | 'Friends first' is a load of crap. It basically means 'I want you to do exactly what I want, and then I may consider something more'.
The best way to approach it is to really treat the person as a friend - that is to say they don't get to have one on one meetings with you - they sink or swim with your other friends. You don't go out of your way to help them, you don't do anything that would normally be restricted to partners or good friends (i.e. helping with clothes shopping) and you definitely never buy anything for them.
Either the person will quickly disappear, they'll insist on having proper dates, or they'll become a friend. Either way, you win. | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 4:11:47 AM | I am an avid disbeliever in > friends first.
That is trying to look at things (a boy/girl relationship) backwards.
Like .............................
Two way (instant) attraction > that includes like (like is the most important element of all for lasting anything) > lovers > respect > continued like > continued attraction.
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I would never “hang around” a female (as a friend only) that - I wanted to hold. | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 8:48:08 AM | Message 23:
Everything can happen and if it has to happen, the rules need to be changed ( this is what I meant with my last statement), meaning that if a friend, that was just a friend, becomes more, than the rules of the relationship change.
But from my own experience:
I prefer my friends to be just that and I make it very clear that it is just that. If it becomes something more, we are entering the realm of 'intimate relationship', which is obviously more than simple friendship and that should be clear as well.
Often a lover is somebody that wants to keep sleeping with you and play friend to obtain the desired goal ( this is the intimate encounter thing going sour)....he says: what's wrong in sleeping with a friend? What is clear to me is that this person is unable to respect boundaries, therefore unable to be a true friend. A friend is somebody that sleeps in your bed like he was your brother. It doesn't demand but gives freely because he loves you as a person ( not as a potential lover). Now, it is also possible that down the road by BOTH SIDES something else gets created.....this is when you change the rules.
I think it is possible to start as friends first but if there is some potential or not to go further, that should be stated honestly, right at the start. Some men I simply need to look at to know that they cannot be anything, neither friends nor lover , let alone my special one. Some it is clear to me can be only friends ( if they are gay, it is even better). Some others I place in the gray area: Maybe ( this is what could start as a friendship and potentially become more), but I state that as the beginning, meaning that I see the potential.
Have I confused you more? | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 9:03:49 AM | I think friends first works best if both participants agree that maybe escallating the relationship could be a great thing. I fell hard for a woman who I regarded as my best friend, and she was aware I was struggling with something and she made me write it down and it resulted an a magnificent piece of work. I believe every woman should receive at least one letter like that, and every man should write at least one letter like that in their lives.
I think friendship builds trust and confidence. The only other mitigating circumstance is will both parties be able to go into an intimate relationship and take the friendship with them into it? If so, it will be such a great relationship....great quality time together, ample time to one's self, and complete faith, trust and love. It works, but only if both parties are completely with it. If not, then at least you still have a great friend. | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 9:46:47 AM | From experinece the answer is yes. I met a girl in my senior year at HS when I was dating someone else. We became friends first. Then after I broke it off with the other girl she and I started dating. A year later we were married and our marriage lasted 15 years.
Of course I destroyed that marriage but thats another story... | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 10:01:16 AM | Thanks for all the responses!
Lets say a guy is at a party, a girl walks in, he looks up and thinks nothing of her. He gets to know her over time because of mutual friends, he finds out she is really cool and they become friends, he will NEVER fall in love with her because that instant attraction wasn't there. .......... Lets say a girl is at a party, a guy walks in, she looks up and thinks nothing of him. She gets to know him over time because of mutual friends, she finds out he is really cool and they become friends, she WILL fall in love with him because of his personality, his charm, wit, intelligence - because of all that - attraction has grown. .......... With that being said, you men have it much easier than we women do, women can be worn down if your are persistent and are genuine in your friendship.
Not always true, the example I posted originally was the exact opposite. I didn't even think anything of this woman until we started hanging out here and there, then when I got to know who she was I became attracted to her physically. It was very "abnormal / backwards" since men usually are "supposed to be" attracted to a womans appearance FIRST. I fell in love with her gradually, she did not feel the same. Now I play it safe, I don't need to go through that level of pain again.
To be fair, she did do some things for me as-well, but the effort I put into things was way over the top. The time we spent together was abnormal for "just friends". I must now admit that was my own doing too because I was trying to "make her" fall for me. I was people pleasing and trying to impress. There are no victims, only volunteers. I just didn't know any better (at that time). It wasn't a wrong doing, just a mistake I had to learn from sooner or later. I spent way too much time with her and way too much effort, so I didn't really treat her like "just a friend". All that time and effort was what caused my emotions to run so high. Something else I now know about myself.
I have friends whom I only hear from or talk to once or twice a year, guys who have their own lives and responsibilities, yet we're still friends and we've been friends forever (it seems). They also respect that I have my own life and responsibilities also. To me, a friend is someone I know will be there when I need them and vice versa, but not for every little thing. Sometimes we get together, but it's not all the time, every day. They want me to go home eventually as would I. We just know we're there for each other, that's friendship to me. Some would say that's "taking people for granted", I believe we do and are supposed to take our loved ones and friends a little "for granted".
This woman wanted me around 24/7 and still insisted on us remaining platonic. I was careful by not throwing money at her, I did help her do allot of things. I learned that my effort and involvement was what lead to my feeling the way I did. I had a choice, but at that time I didn't realize it. I was allowing my emotions to lead me. I truly felt like something wonderful would happen because I never felt like that about anyone before then, and haven't allowed it since then. She may have taken advantage, but it really doesn't matter anymore. It got very mentally and emotionally intimate for me and I couldn't take it just remaining platonic anymore. When I finally decided that I'd have to maintain some "space" for myself unless this thing was going to go further (basically gave her an ultimatum) she got angry at me, making me feel as-if I was somehow a "bad person" or that I should feel "ashamed" and then she just stopped hanging with me or talking to me altogether. She was not completely ignorant of my desire for her either although she may claim that now, and even tried to tell me "I didn't know" (Bullsh_t!)
It took me some years to get over it, because at first I actually felt ashamed and as-if I did something "wrong", then I was angry at her, then I finally realized my own mistakes (every one of them, and not just the more obvious ones), that's when I started dating. But it took almost 2 yrs to resolve a platonic relationship that lasted 5 months!! I don't need that crap anymore.
So I don't want a friend who could be a lover, I want a lover who could be a friend. If it doesn't work-out it doesn't work out. I don't need to get too involved before some sort of foundation is established.
Was she ever even a friend at all?
I've earned what I now consider a healthy fear of that sort of situation.
Mike | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 10:03:49 AM | Well you seem to understand the situation pretty well and know what you want.
Regarding being friends, you had better damn well be friends first before plunging deeper into a relationship. I know plenty of couples who live together and certainly can't be described as friends. They stay together because they can't face life and the world alone. What's the old saying? Lonely are the brave?
Yes I've been friends with women with whom I've gotten emotionally involved and I've been friends with women that I haven't. Just because you're a woman's friend doesn't negate the possibility of love - this is a bunch of BS or old folklore that those with a low emotional IQ believe. Another one is nice guys come in last. They don't if they are "truly" nice guys. Anyway do you want to spend time with an enemy or a woman who prefers a-holes?
The Eagle | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 10:08:00 AM | I highly doubt it would work for me. Sure I am looking for a partner who would be reliable as a good friend, and have plenty in common with me, just like my friends do, but the initial attraction must be there right from the start. If we start as friends, we end-up being friends. Love is not the same as sex added to friendship, by far.
I have male friends, I like them very much, they are wonderful people but I cannot imagine having a romantic relationship with them just like cannot imagine having a romantic relationship with my cousin I grew up with or my brother.
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 10:34:37 AM | Str8ahd, What do you mean by "NO"
How can you just leave it like that?
I believe that IT IS BEST TO BECOME FRIENDS FIRST!!!
It takes TWO to be Friends,
It takes TWO to be in a Relationship,
It takes TWO to be Lovers,
It takes TWO to be Married,
BUT IT ONLY TAKES ONE TO BE DIVORCED!!!
If you are serious about finding a REAL and Loving relationship.....then YES being friends FIRST does really work! I admit that it takes a long time to find another "girl of like core values"...but it's worth the wait. By the way, I am friends with my ex, and my last 2 girlfriends. Think about it....THEY DO KNOW YOU THE BEST AFTER ALL!!! | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 10:37:13 AM | I think friends first is the best way to go about things because I meet many women. Unless you're the type of guy who wants to date every girl you meet, what do you have to lose by making a new friend? A lot of guys say "This girl is wasting my time" etc. Do you look at things that way? If you know a girl isn't going to have sex with you , do you write her off as "Just wasting my time" ?. Perhaps not. I like friends first because I think a lot of guys believe that showing interest in a woman right away is a good thing. I think its a bad thing. I think if you meet a girl and right off the bat you already lay out your cards about how she's the hottest thing you've ever seen and you're interested, you're just setting your self up to be hurt.
Good advice. Prior to me starting to hang around with the one I posted about I also had lots of other female friends. To be honest, I liked having allot of female friends. Was it an ego boost? Yeah a bit (gotta be honest). Sometimes I also think some of those women may have perceived me as a "player" or some sort of "pimp" or something. The right one for me may have been right there under my nose and never approached me about wanting more with me because she may have perceived me as some sort of player.
Since the relationship I originally posted about I have not really let myself have any female friends. I don't believe the mistake was always that I was looking for something more, I think the mistake was that I let myself get involved beyond a superficial level (like meeting for coffee once a month, or just talking on the phone once-in-a-while). I also (like a chump) stayed too involved well beyond the time she told me "all we can ever be is friends", which was totally retarded on my part. It's embarrassing to talk about, but I don't have to do it again. First time victim, second time volunteer. I learned allot about my own boundaries and limitations from the experience, I just haven't made a comeback yet. Something I've been considering lately.
I also have to check my own motives first. What am I really looking for? Some would say it's good to have lots of very attractive female friends because one of them has to eventually want more with you, but I don't know about that. It takes allot of self control to not let lust start making decisions for me.
I really believe in living and learning and applying what we have learned, so I probably should open-up to the possibility again of having female friends. It's more possible now because I know my own limits and boundaries and can be honest about them today. More humility is something I've gained from the experience, and that's only ever a good thing. I'd rather be honest and piss a woman off then let myself get hurt again.
Mike | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 10:39:20 AM | Friends is really a misnomer in the situation in which the "friends first" catchphrase is typically used. Nothing interferes with friendship like sex, and nothing interferes with sex like friendship. Any man knows that to be told by a woman that she thinks of you as a friend she respects is to be told to keep your hands to yourself. What the women who use the euphemism really want is an old-fashioned sex role based courtship in which the man "chases" and the woman doesn't "put out", not friendship. But they're too wimpy to say it straight.
In other words, "friends first" means "lovers never".
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 10:52:46 AM | Any man knows that to be told by a woman that she thinks of you as a friend she respects is to be told to keep your hands to yourself Exactly and it means: you cannot be any more than that. If the man stays and respects the boundary, he is a true friend. When sex is involved: no true friendship , just something of a different nature.
Friendship excludes sex.
If you want to include sex, change the rules and call it something different from friendship.
After all everybody knows what an "intimate friendship" is: a relationship in disguise, not truly a friendship.
( I hope this clears it up for you, Monkey694u)
"Friends first" is a very confusing expression: it automatically implies that there is something more.
Now, maybe I am a bit different and unusual, but I do have a friend that I find very attractive, but, since we could never have a relationship, we both respect the rule of "no sex'. In other words: it is a choice for us to be simply friends, we respect that boundary and we are there for each other in time of need....Honestly, I value his friendship much more than some so called 'relationships' I had.
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 11:02:27 AM | You're wrong l.o.l. Personally, I think "friends first" makes for deeper relationships but it doesn't always have to be that way. Courtship isn't about the man chasing and the woman holding out. It's about two people getting to know each other and giving sex the respect and the place that it belongs, which is only in a committed relationship. There is nothing wrong, or manipulative, or "old fashioned" about that. It is a simple matter of respect.
The older I get, the less likely that I am going to feel an "instant" attraction for most of the men who are attracted to me. So, if that's what they need to decide to stay around, then I guess I'll have to hold out for mutual instant attraction, but in my experience, it's very rare. So, it's likely the man I end up with will be someone who starts as a friend. At the same time, OP, playing a "friend" when you really wanted more was dishonest and you are as guilty as her. In fact, maybe more so. She could've been completely genuine and you may have been the only one trying to manipulate the situation. Women value friends and not all women who allow their male friends to help them out, are using them. Many hope to return the favor; you're good at certain things and she's good at other things. Hopefully, she is offering something in return but if you're only hoping for sex, then you might be completely ignoring any other offers. If you can't be a sincere friend, than be honest. Tell her that you are feeling something deeper and if she can't return it, then you need a break from her. Don't see her at all until you are in control of your feelings, unless she indicates that she is interested in something more as well. | |
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ngat73
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Joined: 6/10/2007
Msg: 41 | |
| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 11:29:58 AM | I was friends with my ex boyfriend for 4 months before we ended up going out as boyfriend/girlfriend. We were friends and he bent over backwards to make sure I was taken care of. I eventually fell for him because I thought that he was just a nice guy and was not trying to buy my affection. I may have been wrong, or maybe that is how some guy behaves when they are into you. It's not the first time I associated with men that invested alot of time and money on me. I really didn't know any better when I was younger and always had this philosophy of "Time will Tell" and gave people the benefit of the doubt. I think everything is relative and it is all dependent on other mitgating factors, external influences, etc.
But, you sound like you are doing these "nice" things in an effort to win her over, not due to the kindness of your heart. Which no offense, but sounds manipulating and sleezy, even though the gestures appear kind (which makes it even worst). In true friendship you do things for others out of the kindness of your heart and do not expect anything in return. I am sure she didn't ask you to do these things, so you should not expect affection or anything else in returned when she didn't ask for your generosity. Sounds like you are just doing things things as a means to an end and your gestures or less than sincere. Women know men do these types of things. Even though they may not be attracted to the guy, often times they don't know how to say no to the "kind" gestures. Some women like the attention and some women can care less. Sometimes, some just wait things out to see what your motivations are, "Time will Tell". Its hard to say if someone is a dumb-shit or not unless they are in the position to witness all communication between the two. So, quit blaming other people or try to correlate your experience with that of someone (other men) that may have nothing to do with your relationship. It sounds like you are more worried about your bruised ego than her, so I say kudos to her for not letting you through because you really sound like a jerk. And, she probably sees that anything resulting in your relationship with her is just doomed for disaster.
I personally am friends with many guys that I would never date if they were one of the last men on earth, however enjoy their company. I'm sure all of us as a child or even now have those annoying friends around, however that one thing they do for you makes it worth while for you to remain friends with them. You can't date everyone and have to choose, and possibly you are not one that will be chosen. Who knows, she may like you but with that attitude you have already lost the battle.
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 11:33:18 AM | I grew up with 4 sisters, they all had friends and remained my friends also, once we where out for a night on the town I ended up with my sisters and there friends, Now I have made my friendships with these women, and I also made some friends as I grew up.
Now in the "dating" scene When a women tells me friends first or want to remain friends, I kinda walk away unless she takes the initiative to take me out etc. I will do my part but its hard at times to be friends with someone you are sexually attracted to.
I am looking for a date and yes make some friends, but once a relationship is started its hard to keep yourself separated from friends and her/him. Meaning we want to spend most of our time with the one we have fallen for and get to know the person inside and out. eventually friends don't really stick to friends when you don't have time for them.
MY !!Solly ,My way of thinking is if I want friends I will place friendship only. Same for her, However if they are just looking to make friends I won bother because they are either just getting out of a relationship and want to party and enjoy the single life, or they haven't matured enough for the commitment.
So I would say more of the NO side it doesn't work.
But we all have a different way of thinking. | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 11:47:07 AM |
It's more possible now because I know my own limits and boundaries and can be honest about them today
Dear OP:
See? You got it: it's all a matter of self- knowledge and skillfullness in establishing boundaries.
Good for you! | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 12:56:01 PM | i think that it works. that is the only way to get to know someone. in my book you have a get to know each other (bein friends) before you get start goin out with that person. or she could just be feeding a line giving you a hint she does not want to be with you. but that is just my opinion but it might be a shitty one but i tried to help.
andy | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 1:04:19 PM | | Dayzy is right there; so true. Women, I think, are far more willing to consider the long term versus the 'chemistry'. | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 1:12:31 PM | | I think it depends on the type of friendship. You know how you feel and with good communication and gut instincts you hopefully will figure out where the friendship is going or isn't going. As far as getting someone do stuff for you because it is convenient, I think is crap. If you are really truly friends, it is a two way street and the favor will be returned and if not you are getting used. Besides, you could get used just for sex, if you find a lover first. I still think friends first is the way to go and if you want more discuss it with them about how you feel and they feel. Communication is the start to any kind of relationship. | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 1:13:04 PM | | Isn't this what we are doing on here....we email, chat etc etc become friends and interested then go out for that first meet, wow we have alot in common and I like you...ok so the friendship has started now lets take the next step. | |
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| Does Friends first ever really work?
Posted: 2/18/2008 1:24:25 PM | Friends first...........no...
Getting to know the person with the intention of becoming lovers and friends...... yes.....
Be clear on what your expectations are and set a mental time limit...if it doesn't happen....move on from those expectations and don't go back there......THEN you can build a friendship...... | |
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