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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/23/2008 10:19:16 AM |
Besides, one man's evil is another man's good. So do good and evil exist in reality or just in our minds?
Exactly, evil is a human experience and exists only in the minds of people! It does not exist in nature and we are, after all, just mammals with self concept. We are a part of nature, like all animals. We think things are evil because we know good from bad, and that is negotiable from person to person, from culture to culture and from religion to religion. You can not change people, they can only make changes themselves. We are predators, and no longer able to practice predatory ways. We prey upon each other, seeking out the weak to bully.
Wars are just means to become King of the hill, top dog, and away of bullying other weak nations or tribes. Nations rarely start wars against a better foe, unless their is a clash of cherished ideologies, such as communism vs. democracy, king against king. If a nation has all the riches of the world, you can be assured other nations will attack out of wantonness. If a weaker nation has all the oil, be sure larger nations will come and take it from them.
If it was not world opinion, the United Nations, fear of nations uniting to over come a perceived injustices, believe me England or the United States would have taken over all the oil rich nations, without blinking an eye.  | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/23/2008 12:15:10 PM | taurus516, I meant humanity in general, the fit, and the reasonably well.
To be fair on the religious, most people are, so most mistakes would be made by them. Less so, the belief in a god, outside the very powerful US.
Winston Churchill was a great intellect in a non religious one. But the communist were not. That is, misused intellect. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/23/2008 4:34:49 PM | | I agree with you 100% that religion is a horrible thing. However, I do not believe spirituality is wrong or evil. The problem with religions is that they set is apart as separate from ourselves, from nature, from each other, and have us look skyward to a mythical father figure. Spirituality that links us to our local land bases and teaches us how to live in tune with the creatures around us is needed. One of the primary problems inherent with civilized religions is that they are all hierarchical, linear, and based on the fulfillment of some future prophecy, whether that be a messiah or a rapture. Indigenous religions tended to be cyclical and taught respect and harmony. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/23/2008 6:03:34 PM | Martin Buber in book named, "Good and Evil" tells us that evil is the lie that humans have introduced into nature. Evil is a lie of human invention, "different in kind from every deceit that the animals can produce.... In a lie the spirit practises treason against itself." p. 7. u Charles Scribner's Sons, New York, 1953.
We are living a lie if we believe evil exists, let alone that it exists in a non-entity. such as a belief system. It stunts human growth, human understanding and possibility world peace. Peoples interpretation of the Creator is good, if you follow the tenants as prescribed. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/23/2008 8:03:06 PM | Dream Seeker: I give myself all the credit in the world. its my belief. i believe in the human mind. so by that I do blame people and I give them credit for good to. Now you as a believer in whatever religion. You blame people for wrong but credit some power with good. That makes no sence logically. There is nothing that is prvoen that only does right and never wrong. Until you blame God I just cant see any person giving it credit. (my opinion)!
Drumsafrican: I am not judging anyone. I am judging religion though. I have had what I guess you guys call an "experience" but the difference between me and most of you is that when I "experience" the unknown I call it the unknown vs you giving credit to God. thats all.
Lastly if there is evil in humans who created us? If religion has been here since day one that means religion was here before evil and actually can be the cause of it. Now we know humans didnt roam the Earth since day one and I am sure there was evil before we got here? You dont think animals before us did evil things? Problem with humans is we think everything begins and ends with us. I am sure like roaches....feelings, good and evil, were here before we were. so now who is to blame? | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/24/2008 3:05:42 AM | Hey Sckoul...
Hope it doesn't seem like I'm always attacking your posts... It only means that what you have to say makes me think.
There is nothing that is prvoen that only does right and never wrong.
I agree a little bit... If there is "right" there must be "wrong" but those are just words... In nature nothing is right or wrong until we assign quality to it... Now if you believe the way nature goes as being "right" then there can't really be a wrong because there is nothing which doesn't follow the natural course of "being".
Lastly if there is evil in humans who created us?
"Evil" is only in humans because we decided to believe it a long time ago... Personally, I think the belief in "evil" is misguided and irresponsible... In labelling others as "evil", all we are doing is creating a barrier and not only will we never relate to these people (an oxymoron), we will never try for fear of understanding them and doing "evil" ourselves... If you don't believe in "evil" all you see is a person in need of quality information sharing... Someone who could've been alot like you if they had the same experiences and upbringing as you did (chemically unbalanced examples aside).
If religion has been here since day one that means religion was here before evil and actually can be the cause of it.
Well... It could be the cause of the word itself, but really, it seems like a natural obstacle we have to learn to avoid when we decide to give value to stuff... Fire was good until we got burned and then fire was bad... Now fire is just fire because we understand it.
Evil is a word which we assign to things and people we choose to not understand... It's meaning can only be subjective and the way it grows is like a snowball... Leading to the problem getting bigger instead of fixed. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/27/2008 1:48:22 AM | "In labelling others as "evil", all we are doing is creating a barrier and not only will we never relate to these people (an oxymoron), we will never try for fear of understanding them and doing "evil" ourselves..."
Interesting point. So, you don't think it's possible for me to, say, recognize that molesting children or raping women is absolutely evil, without "creating a barrier" between me and the rapist/ molester? All right, I guess that might be true, though I tend to believe that people can commit completely evil acts, and still be capable of finding redemption and understanding. But anyway, where's your concern for the decent people that often get hurt {to various degrees} by evil acts?
I don't like to think of individuals as "evil," but I do think there's lots of evidence for the existence of absolute evil. Society does not designate morality. Or, at least, not mine. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/27/2008 7:38:43 PM |
Interesting point. So, you don't think it's possible for me to, say, recognize that molesting children or raping women is absolutely evil, without "creating a barrier" between me and the rapist/ molester?
Sort of I guess... By not trying to understand why they did what they did, we can't really try to stop it from happening again... We know capital punishment isn't a deterant.
All right, I guess that might be true, though I tend to believe that people can commit completely evil acts, and still be capable of finding redemption and understanding. But anyway, where's your concern for the decent people that often get hurt {to various degrees} by evil acts?
Compassion for the perpetrator is just as beneficial to the victim... You will never beat hatred with hatred... You can't fight misunderstanding with misunderstanding.
I don't like to think of individuals as "evil," but I do think there's lots of evidence for the existence of absolute evil. Society does not designate morality. Or, at least, not mine.
You designate your own morals, but society designates ethics out of individual morals... All individuals (yourself included) are part of this society... If we say "It's society's fault", we are accepting blame (not saying you are). | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/27/2008 8:26:15 PM | In regard to the discussion about "evil", I disagree that "one man's 'evil' is another man's 'good'", or a subjective and personal opinion or preference. It fails to address the "evil" of rape, murder, sexual abuse of children, theft, and assorted other harms done to persons by persons. Whether the rapist believes his act to be "good' is immaterial. We, as a society, have decided it's an "evil" act and deserved appropriate punishment for the "evil" done. The decision, acted out in law, is an objective one (= rape is evil and requires punishment). Whether one has a subjective and personal opinion that rape is good is inconsequential.
Further, to claim that "evil" is only a construct of our minds and doesn't actually exist, fails to deal with the reality that evil occurs. For example, a rape is an actual event that occurs to a person that causes them harm. To suggest that the rape is only evil because it is so in their mind fails to address the reality of the harm the rape has caused. it's all fine and dandy to theorise that evil is all in the mind, but it doesn't address the actual issue, no matter how dressed up in fine words and hodge-podge collections of psychological babble. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/28/2008 2:56:32 PM | In regard to the discussion about "evil", I disagree that "one man's 'evil' is another man's 'good'", or a subjective and personal opinion or preference. It fails to address the "evil" of rape, murder, sexual abuse of children, theft, and assorted other harms done to persons by persons.
I don't think so... I obviously think that it's highly unethical to rape or murder and would never defend ithowever, in some misguided persons head (no, not all of them), they are doing "good"... I'm not saying it isn't sick but that the term "evil" is subjective... Argue all you like, you will never come up with an "absolute evil" because to do so would mean every single person holds it as the "true" evil.
Whether the rapist believes his act to be "good' is immaterial.
You are mistaken.
We, as a society, have decided it's an "evil" act and deserved appropriate punishment for the "evil" done.
We have decided it's unethical for sure, but you have to believe in evil to call something evil and many think it's an irresponsible term... Again... Subjective.
The decision, acted out in law, is an objective one (= rape is evil and requires punishment).
Again... It's silly to me that you keep using the term "evil" like everyone believes in such a thing... Unethical actions should be understood so that they may be stopped before they happen... This will never happen if we keep hiding behind silly terms for one another.
Trying to stop it from happening after the fact is just stupid... Calling it "evil" isn't going to fix anything and in fact will only make it more attractive to the misguided.
If we teach our children to show compassion to the world but to always protect themselves, it will go alot further than to teach them to be afraid of what we choose not to solve.
Whether one has a subjective and personal opinion that rape is good is inconsequential.
Again... I sympathize with what you're saying, but again you are mistaken.
Further, to claim that "evil" is only a construct of our minds and doesn't actually exist, fails to deal with the reality that evil occurs.
If you want to call every unethical action "evil", it's up to you but to claim there is some force which makes us unethical is just pure passing the buck.
To suggest that the rape is only evil because it is so in their mind fails to address the reality of the harm the rape has cause.
No it doesn't... "Evil" is an unforgivable act, correct? To not allow yourself to heal emotionally and forgive this "evil" person you are making it harder on yourself.
it's all fine and dandy to theorise that evil is all in the mind, but it doesn't address the actual issue, no matter how dressed up in fine words and hodge-podge collections of psychological babble.
Oh grow up for crying out loud! Calling unethical behavior "evil" would be fine, but to call an unethical person "evil" is to say there is no hope for them... Guess what? If it's too late for them, it's too late for us.
It's a very, very irresponsible term... And in my books, it's an unethical one. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/28/2008 8:34:39 PM |
Further, to claim that "evil" is only a construct of our minds and doesn't actually exist, fails to deal with the reality that evil occurs.
Many people have argued this point over the ages and we have not come to any agreement, other than to agree to disagree. However, evil is not in the mind, it does not exist, either in nature or in humans. Humans believe evil exists simply because we are aware of life, self, and death. These awareness’s then make us aware of others and suffering, because we suffer, therefore, we are aware when someone or something causes harm to someone else. We care for our own safety so we impose laws so that we can live in relative peace and when we see someone harmed, we sympathize for others or believe: “There, by the grace of God, go I".
Self-preservation is the main goal of human behavior, and thus, we put names on conduct. We teach children what is right and wrong, as a family (some better than others) in order to preserve the peace, as fragile as it is in the world. In war, it is often the practice of the army to rape the women in order to make their children to become more like us. Kings used this practice by giving the Lords the power to inseminate a man’s bride to assure power over the defeated. As the army gains more control they bring their morals, their religion and laws to the overpowered. To harm those who are less powerful and make them subordinate is the way of our species.
People who kill are either mentally ill, or wish to prove they are more powerful. The same is true of rape. Rape is not sexual; it is a power issue or mental illness. If you look at nature you will see we are not apart from nature, we are a part of nature. Until we recognize that evil is an abstract, a thought, or is intangible, the more likely it is that we will continue to repeat history and do what we consider bad things to others.
Like evil, love, or religion are all concepts of human thought. God is more than anything we can image. To put God in a box and present to others and say, “Look here, this is God.” that my friend is idolatry; Some people look to find God in the Bible , nothing wrong with that, but to say, “Everything about God is this book”, or to worship it is also idolatry of the worst kind, it is call, biblical idolatry. God gave us a mind to think, not follow blindly what other have taught us. We need to think outside the box, or book to find our personal relationship with the Creator. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/29/2008 5:16:50 AM | I am a athiest ok witch i dont believe in god to me godis another world for the creater of all living thing's that was written in a book 2,000 or later year's ago .
To believe in a mysical or magical being is almost living in fantasy where do i signe up lol .
but in all realaty no one's even proofen that god exsist nor has any physcal proof of his exsistence.
same go's for the devil he dont exsist just another story written in to the bible good against evil such as stephen king's the stand.
as i read from richard dawkins he believe that a supernatural creator almost certainly does not exist and that belief in a god qualifies as a delusion, which he defines as a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence.
Or another word's like when your a child and your parents told u u better be good or santa wont come now as a child being told this you believe what was told to you but later in life you are doing the same to your children what u where taught but in all realaty there was no santa clause it was your parents who worked hard and bought thease gifts and wraped them up and put it under your tree and now the teachings are passed to the parent and the parent dose it to there children and this will continue through generation's it what i call a virus to pass on false believe's .
that is what religion dose it's passed through generation's and told in story 's of magical stuff but now it has come as far as it is in money its on signes pics statues ect and for what it become a money making industry .
in american it says in god we trust or in the plenge one nation under god my guess is witch god . And now it has also gone to murder for one's god to kill for there believe's such as 9-11 wtc or jone's towm rev jim jones who brough his followers to africa to have them drink posion for there believe's .
And
Religion is the True EVIL in the world there are more people with religion in prison than there are atheist whats that tell ya. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/29/2008 5:37:26 AM |
will never come up with an "absolute evil" because to do so would mean every single person holds it as the "true" evil.
That's irrelevant. First I didn't use the word "absolute". Second, whether everyone agrees or not, evil is evil. To recognize it and name it does not require 100% consensus. Rape is evil. There is no need to understand the subjective opinion of the rapist at the time of the rape. Counselling and help to prevent a repeat of the evil deed? Sure. Punishment for the evil deed? Absolutely. Encouraging the rapist to seek the forgiveness of the victim? Yup. Encouraging the victim to forgive the rapist? For sure. | |
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PhYz
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Joined: 6/23/2007
Msg: 539 | |
| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/29/2008 11:17:46 AM | IslandGuy222
either way there's something overlooked here
WHO needs to know evil??
WHETHER SOMETHING 'IS' OR 'ISN'T' ??
feel the need to recognise evil
feel the need for control and / or fear.
there will then ~ always be debates and different standpoints ~ for ever will someone "need" to be Right or True or Good.
or even believe to know what is Truly Evil
It's a jest a misonomer and a mistake to claim knowledge without 'ulterior' motive. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/29/2008 2:25:35 PM |
That's irrelevant. First I didn't use the word "absolute".
You said it wasn't subjective... What do you think absolute means?
Second, whether everyone agrees or not, evil is evil.
Only in your mind... I could easily say that water is gasoline and it doesn't matter if everyone agrees or not... Does that mean water is gasoline?
To recognize it and name it does not require 100% consensus.
It does if you want it to be "objective" or "absolute" and not "subjective" or "not necessarily true".
Rape is evil. There is no need to understand the subjective opinion of the rapist at the time of the rape.
You're right... Why bother to try to see how this type of thing can be avoided in the future... Let's just be ignorant and hopefully the problem will go away on its own.
Counselling and help to prevent a repeat of the evil deed?
O.k... That's one person dealt with... What about others? Just wait until someone is raped and then do it all over again? This doesn't get to the root of the problem, which is a lack of compassion.
Punishment for the evil deed?
Sure... As long as their time of punishment is spent working to better society and not watching tv in some cellblock or being put to death... Their death won't do society much good and I don't like having to foot their cable bill.
Encouraging the rapist to seek the forgiveness of the victim? Yup.
But why? Can an "evil" person change? If so there is no "true" evil.
Thanks for clearing that up. | |
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PhYz
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Joined: 6/23/2007
Msg: 541 | |
| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 4/30/2008 10:59:13 AM | Does rape occur in nature, for example?
Are we different from the beasts?
Is Free will just an extesion of choice that all beings have?
Animals still prefer to be warm for example and will seek shelter
Its a natural instinct.
Why simply because we are considered to possess Free Will do we discount the meaning of nature within us?
It gets dark - we turn on the light ... what happened to the natural time for sleep?
Sorry i'm generalising i know!
When it comes to Rape and other evils ...
Insecurities might be accepted - behaviour as a social animal does not have to be
..... accepted nor forgiven necessarily.
Supress nature suppress instinct and cloud it with theorem and 'reason'
Was not eating from the tree of knowledge said to cause us grief question strife and misery?
lol fukdifino ... just wafflin!
:) | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 5/2/2008 7:06:16 PM | Rape is a form of assault where a person has sexual intercourse with another person without their consent. It may be defined as forcing a person to submit to any sex act, and is generally considered one of the most serious sex crimes, as well as sometimes very difficult to prosecute.
accordiong to religion it is conciderd evil a sin now in some cases the person who commited such a act can ple in saine and say the devil told me to do it to get a lesser sentence but evil is most common used as the devil the falling angel in a pit of hell or in my word's the land of the damn.
But we as human's choose are own fate we decide what we do with are life's it has nothing to do with evil it im sure the devil dont come to are door and say i want you to rape that would be conciderd crazy talk.
But like any other beside's rape it become's a sickness to the point it becomes a adiction just like child molester's ,drug actic's,ect. Another word's to be upsessed with one's idea to commit a crime and carry on with it.
the differce between good and evil is that it's a story for told in the bible or in stephen king's the stand a battle with god and the fallen angel the devil. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 5/6/2008 12:12:39 PM | reagardless of whether or not you choose to follow a particular faith, or ANY faith for that matter, you have to ask yourself WHY people have created religion, or found a need for it, and why it has been such an integral part of human existence.
to simply dismiss those who do choose to follow a particular faith as being less then rational or illogical as you suggest, is really rather prejudicial, wouldn't you say? people who get phds in theology study not only religion, but philosophy among other things. go talk to a Catholic priest or Rabbi and then try telling me that these men are not well-educated and quite rational.
there has been an awful lot of good done in the world in the name of religion as well... so wouldn't it be a bit unfair to say "case closed" without weighing the good in balance with the bad?
so what are you going to do then, out law religion and discriminate against religious people? keep in mind that the greatest attrocities committed against other human beings were done under the secular religions of nazism and communism...
lar | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 5/6/2008 12:33:43 PM | | I'm not sure if I agree with the title of the thread, but if you read "The Hiram Key" by Knight and Lomas you will understand a lot more about the origins of Christianity, not to mention learn about some uncomfortable truths that have been unknown or kept secret for almost 2000 years. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 5/6/2008 12:42:53 PM | larissan04:
people who get phds in theology study not only religion, but philosophy among other things. go talk to a Catholic priest or Rabbi and then try telling me that these men are not well-educated and quite rational.
Quite true. If I were considering the Catholic priesthood right now, I would have to change my college major to Philosophy, since seminarians are required to study two years of philosophy before undertaking any serious theological studies. Some orders, such as the Society of Jesus aka the Jesuits, require their members to complete PhD's in various academia such as one of the sciences, or history, philosophy, Latin or Greek, etc. I'm sure that Jewish rabbis have to undergo a lot of rigorous academic study as well. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 5/7/2008 6:38:22 AM | yngwierocks,
You be surprised what's hidden away all this time i was talking to a friend who in collage right now in a coffee shop and the history that's been kept away all this time he said ever got out it will destroy christain religion as we know it.
Some thing's are kept away from people because there afraied to bring out the truth almost like the jfk murder thats been unerwrap for a long time they tell you what they choose to you and leave the rest to hide.
But to discover the truth behind it all no matter if it was 2,000 years ago or 10,000 bc theres alway's some thing to for tell the story what happend in the time period that's where science come's in to study are history to proof what's fact and what's not it's very amzing to find out how religion was back then and believe it or not history repeat's it self and is what we see today in iraq that it self as a few of my friend's say it's a religon war to become a marta for one's believe's there fighting on what christain's would say holy land .
its a war that has been around for thousan's of year's . | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 5/9/2008 1:23:27 PM |
the history that's been kept away all this time he said ever got out it will destroy christain religion as we know it.
I am not sure it would destroy it, but; it would certainly change it for the better. Number one; if Christ were to experience all the things we have to go through, then; marriage would have to be right at the top. Jesus would have to be married to be called rabbi according to Jewish law. Number two; Jesus never claim to be God or that we should pray to him and not God, let alone to pray to his mother.
Number three; Jesus was not the Son of God, other than what can be considered as that we are all children of God, and he even argues this point when questioned. Jesus is promoted as the son of God in order to convert the Romans. The Romans would have never excepted a Jewish sect to replace their own religion unless their Christ was the son of Zeus. Christian were notorious for changing the facts to justify the end result, and consider it OK as long as they spread their religion.
Number four; whenever you have a merging of cultures the adopted religions merge and you have a different type of religion and practices. In Africa, when missionary converted the local tribes, they could not tell them that Jesus was the Lamb of God, it made no sense, so often he is portrayed as the piglet of God, which made more sense.
Looking at religion and ignoring history and the ennoble roll of the Church Catholic or Universal is like putting on blinders and the blind leading the blind. Not that I hold current day Catholics for the sins of their fathers, I hold all Christian liable for not opening their eyes, removing their blinders and seeking the true Christ and researhing to find the true Jesus religion. If we did, I believe we would come much closer to God and have less troubles with other religions.
On an different topic; some here had mentioned that earthquakes and terrible storms were evil, hogwash. If we did not have earthquakes, that would mean that our world was dead. In order for a world to be alive it has to have heat in its inner core, which causes earthquakes. Not heat, no life. No storms, no water, no life. Look it up, and learn your science. Geesh. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 5/9/2008 2:04:37 PM | Jesus never claim to be God or that we should pray to him and not God, let alone to pray to his mother.
Jesus doesn't say He's God - and as far as I know only Catholics pray to Mary
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 5/9/2008 4:05:54 PM | Fleur de lis:
Jesus doesn't say He's God - and as far as I know only Catholics pray to Mary
The Eastern Orthodox also beseech the Blessed Virgin's intercessions. They call her the Theotokos, or God-bearer. With Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox put together, that makes up about 75 to 80% of the Christian world globally speaking. Marian spirituality is also found among a few high-church Anglicans.
As for whether Jesus told His followers to pray to His mother, it should be said that Christ's ministry began through the intercession of Mary, when she interceded on behalf of the wedding party to tell her Son that there was no wine.
Granted that Jesus doesn't say "I'm God" exactly like that, but looking at the gospels, I think the divinity of Christ can be well-established, especially the gospel of John. John 8:58 records Jesus saying to a group of Jews, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM." Of course, "I am" is the name of God that the Father spoke to Moses atop Mount Sinai ("I AM what I AM", or Y-H-W-H in Hebrew). Likewise, during the footwashing rite in the Last Supper, Christ said "You call me Master and Lord. And you say well: for so I AM." (John 13:13) And of course, when Satan tempted Christ in the wilderness, Christ replied saying "thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God". | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 5/9/2008 4:37:00 PM | All very enlightening - thank you, Jacobus
With Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox put together, that makes up about 75 to 80%
We rule! 
As an aside: I heard that Catholics are not baptised correctly as we hare not submerged and therefore will not go to heaven - what is your take on this?
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