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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/2/2008 3:44:39 PM | While there is no doubt that there have been good works performed by religious people. But, the people that do good things for others, do they do these things because of their religion or in-spite of it? I think it depends on the person. Everybody is born with a moral impulse, the ability and desire to want to help others, some is MORE developed in SOME people than others, and is based on a person's ability to empathize with others. The more empathetic a person is, the more inclined they are to want to do positive things for humanity, regardless of religion.
One does not need to be religious to have the ability to empathize and desire to help others. "Doctors Without Border's" is an example of a secular organization committed to helping others. Humanist organizations are also committed to helping people and improving the world that we live in. They contribute to humanity without the need to prostelyze to them, spreading myths. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/2/2008 4:00:22 PM | | In response to saasyaquarious, you said that a person can actually have beliefs(that are true for them) while also retaining their ability to think and reason. Well, in order for that to be true, then there does not exist any objective truth. According to what you said, it appears to me that there is no universal truth or objective reality. Would it be ok for a physics professor to state that to believe in the laws of gravity are only optional. The laws of nature are only true for some people but not all. Does not make any sense to me. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/2/2008 4:36:18 PM |
you said that a person can actually have beliefs(that are true for them) while also retaining their ability to think and reason. Well, in order for that to be true, then there does not exist any objective truth. According to what you said, it appears to me that there is no universal truth or objective reality. Would it be ok for a physics professor to state that to believe in the laws of gravity are only optional. The laws of nature are only true for some people but not all. Does not make any sense to me. I disagree.
You can have beliefs (with no evidence) in some areas and beliefs (supported by evidence) in other areas without surrendering your objectivity and retaining your ability to think and reason. For example, Ken Miller is a christian that has written over 75 articles in peer-reviewed scientific journals. I would love to hear you attempt to refute his objectivity and ability to think and reason. One may accept 'dogma' about where matter in the universe came from, what happens after death, etc, and still keep an open mind about the things around us. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/2/2008 5:57:29 PM |
you said that a person can actually have beliefs(that are true for them) while also retaining their ability to think and reason How does one formulate a belief? By osmosis.. ? Not everyone blindly tips their head back for their daily dose.
According to what you said, it appears to me that there is no universal truth or objective reality. Would it be ok for a physics professor to state that to believe in the laws of gravity are only optional.The laws of nature are only true for some people but not all. Does not make any sense to me. Gravity is something tangible and proven.. our beliefs on the matter are more of an adjective to a noun... whereas regarding matters that have NOT been proven... we get to fill in the grey areas with whatever we wish... whether that be a belief in God, a belief that there is no God or suspending judgment and ignoring that aspect of life...
SOME people can accept that their beliefs are not proof and do not attempt to project them outward as though everyone else should believe the same ;) | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/2/2008 6:39:24 PM | | People have always filled in the gray areas of life that were unknown at the time. I am not suggesting that people stop doing that, but what I object to is that being called a "truth." I realize that the laws of gravity are tangible and supported, not proven, since in science, nothing is proven 100%, but it is supported by 99.999%. Just as the theory of gravity is highly supported, so is the theory of evolution. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/2/2008 6:43:18 PM | | In response to rockondon, I am aware that there are some scientists who can think objectively and still adhere to dogma. In fact people do that all the time in one form or another. It is called compartmentalizing. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/2/2008 8:26:25 PM |
People have always filled in the gray areas of life that were unknown at the time. I am not suggesting that people stop doing that, but what I object to is that being called a "truth." A truth that should apply to ALL? In that case I agree... perhaps I misunderstood you.. I thought your point was that all those who believe in God have lost their ability to reason and think critically... which sounded awfully dogmatic to me... if that is not the case, my apologies :) | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/2/2008 9:42:36 PM |
Just as the theory of gravity is highly supported, so is the theory of evolution.
Did you come by that knowledge through your ability to think objectively and rationally or did you accept it on the say-so of a scientist or school textbook?
One who is truly seeking God requires objective and rational thinking even more then those who don't because one is learning about spiritual laws and the nature of the God one believes in. It's not simply a matter of saying "I believe" although some may do so because for them it's a social club but for the serious seeker there is much more to it then that. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/3/2008 11:40:31 AM | sassyaquarius
A person can actually have beliefs (that are true for them) while also retaining their ability to think and reason.
The mere fact that it is belief, or should I say, only a belief, suggests that this belief exists only because there isn't enough evidence in it to make it anything more than faith-based. This principal applies wide-spectrum.
Since this thread is dedicated to 'The evil of religion', then I think it's not a leap to conclude that any delusion can affect one's ability to think and reason, especially on such a grand scale as this subject matter. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/3/2008 12:16:56 PM | The philosophygirl
While there is no doubt that there have been good works performed by religious people. But, the people that do good things for others, do they do these things because of their religion or in-spite of it?
I agree, and I might add that socialization and our innate morality due to the evolutionary success of our species demands it. Religion merely borrows this precept and certainly isn't the cause of it. We do good works for people essentially in the hope that people will do good works for us. This is what made human beings a successful lot when considering our development, and will sustain us (lets hope) for unlimited millenniums as a species.
Let's not forget that over 90% of the species that have called this world home, are now extinct. Human animals are subject to the same demise. We do have an ace up our evolutionary sleeve however, technology. Be it bio or mechanical, it really is our only saving grace as this world could potentially shake us off like fleas. Consider germ theory :)
To me at least, I think it truly appalling that someone would believe that by doing good works here, they'll be rewarded in heaven. This is simply masochism, of which all the monotheistic religions participate. Why not do good works for the sake of humanity instead? That seems a much more altruistic endeavor, than selfishly 'storing' gold in heaven for the big day when you croak! | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/3/2008 3:37:17 PM |
sassyaquarius:A person can actually have beliefs (that are true for them) while also retaining their ability to think and reason.
--->The mere fact that it is belief, or should I say, only a belief, suggests that this belief exists only because there isn't enough evidence in it to make it anything more than faith-based. This principal applies wide-spectrum.
Since this thread is dedicated to 'The evil of religion', then I think it's not a leap to conclude that any delusion can affect one's ability to think and reason, especially on such a grand scale as this subject matter. You think you are above formulating beliefs regarding that which has not been proven.. ? Please... continue to indulge in your own delusion  | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/3/2008 3:56:11 PM |
Since this thread is dedicated to 'The evil of religion', then I think it's not a leap to conclude that any delusion can affect one's ability to think and reason, especially on such a grand scale as this subject matter.
You think you are above formulating beliefs regarding that which has not been proven.. ? Please... continue to indulge in your own delusion
I think I can say it from above, below or inside when it comes to accepting a mythical book as is the Bible, as ahem, gospel, hehe :) If you think I'm delusional by asking for proof, then call me bonkers and get my little white jacket ready! | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/10/2008 1:11:10 AM | islandguy222
Consider this: God is loving "thought" he can not think evil.
Devil is evil "thought" he can not think love.
Humans think both ways. Why? Because life is about cause and effect. Without hate their can not be love. Without love there can not be hate. It is not a matter of "belief" it is a matter of "knowing' the two powers of thought and how to employ them in life. Humans are the instruments God created so that they could create life. Good thought and bad thought are gages for knowing when you are creating life or destroying it. Heaven is a state of mind not a place we will go. Hell is a state of mind not a place we will go. Loving thought can not be in the world without you. Evil thought can not be in the world without you. To say you do not believe in God is to say you have no "loving thoughts." To say you do not believe in evil is to say you have no "evil thoughts." This translates into being braindead.
Religious men teach that God is out there somewhere to keep people from being able to control there own minds which translates into not being able to control our own thoughts unless we believe in their thoughts. Thus giving control of our lives to someone else namely "religious men." Yet God gave "free will" to humans to allow humans to "think and act" for themselves.
Love does not force thus God does not force his way into our lives. He did create laws which are universal laws not religious laws. They are laws for human protection not to threaten us into behaving a certain way less God will punish us. When we break these laws it is humans that suffer not God and we are suffering now not later when we are dead. There is no such thing as sin. There is "mistakes" which leaves us open to correction of "ourselves" through "self-discipline", this is the meaning of Free Will.
The concept of sin was created by evil thinking men in an attempt to usurp Good Orderly Direction GOD and take control of the people's power to "choose" and live there own lives. What better way to do this than to instill "fear" (evil thought's} which translates into control for greed.
No thinking man can believe there is a shortage of anything in this world. This is the crux of evil minded men. Sad. I have yet to see the hearse with a U-haul on the back of it. I know one thing. We had better get some Good Orderly Direction soon cause God is going to be the least of our worries. Fools! | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/10/2008 7:51:33 AM |
Did you come by that knowledge through your ability to think objectively and rationally or did you accept it on the say-so of a scientist or school textbook?
One who is truly seeking God requires objective and rational thinking even more then those who don't because one is learning about spiritual laws and the nature of the God one believes in. It's not simply a matter of saying "I believe" although some may do so because for them it's a social club but for the serious seeker there is much more to it then that.
Apparently you don't have the first clue what constitutes rational & objective thought. Belief in something without any proof requires you to ignore rationality & become intellectually dishonest.
If you are willing to delude yourself with dishonesty then you are incapable of being honest with other people. I continually find the most dishonest & despicably coniving people I have ever met to also be the most religious. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/10/2008 10:21:15 PM |
continually find the most dishonest & despicably coniving people I have ever met to also be the most religious. Isn't it amazing how we tend to find exactly what we expect to find?  | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/12/2008 7:32:56 AM | | ^^^Agreed... if you go looking for trouble you can expect to find it most of the time... I'm just wondering if it works the other way around. :) | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/12/2008 12:56:10 PM |
Isn't it amazing how we tend to find exactly what we expect to find?
I used to give everyone the benefit of doubt, unfortunately owing to my experience of business dealings with "righteous church going people" (who can't STFU about it) that is no longer the case.
These days any business dealings with people end the minute they mention religion. Now my bills get paid on time, I no longer get ripped off, lied to & generally ****ed about. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/13/2008 10:30:20 PM |
Posted by: DoninFL
There's a HUGE difference between a religion and a relationship...
Religion is Man's way to get close to God.
Relationship is God's way to get close to Man.
Thats almost right, but I heard it put a better way. It was the difference Faith and Religion. Man invented religion in order to get closer to god, but god created Faith in order to get closer to us. Which means if you have faith, you can believe in god from your living room couch. But if you did that religion wouldnt be able to control you and take your money. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/14/2008 8:41:03 AM | There are many thing's out there that are not exsplain as of yet but also there are thing's that have beed proofen to be false to.
God as people know is all knowing a the creater of all thing's but it all depend's in how you where raised in Religious believe's or not .
And then there is a book called the bible was written to tell the story of it's creater and his son to teach future generation's.
What do people realy know about religion dose god realy exsist? I dont believe that there is any kind of proof that he dose exsist and who listed god as a male if no one every seen him or her ?
To believe you will be healed and giving site or beable to walk from god with out medical treat ment is Delusional to believe that. But that's my opion on that.
Religious Science,
People believe to be a secon comming of christ and believe that the devil will come back and then will be a holy war between the bouth. Also know as Armageddon the end of all thing's.
Religious Science,
was founded in 1927 buy a man name Ernest Holmes,
Religious Science believes that all proven healing practices are part of the "Whole" god.
but the teaches that all beings are expressions of and part of Infinite Intelligence, also known as Spirit, Higher Consciousness, or God. It believes that, because God is all there is in the universe.
But my question is has science ever profen of his exsistance or ever proofen any thing that god has ever came to them in person think about it.
But as again it's my opion i dont mean to affend any one but is there realy any proof out there beside's the teaching's of the bible and church that god realy exsist only in there mind's and soul's.
Nasa has been sending men and women to space and has also sent out Telescope's to take pic's of are universe and to learn from samples from comet's ect.
To understand what's out there are we alone out there who know's maybe there are other's out there that are more advanced then us but that is yet to know. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/14/2008 10:11:35 PM | Looking at attribution, with Rome by itself, would we have freedoms and justice, and benevolent societies today were it not for Jesus and his disciples in Greece and Rome?
I am sure the Roman governors could not have gone as far, only building roads, aquaducts, stadiums, with initiating fights to death, baths, courts of sorts, education and metal industry. This under their ruling.
Historic religious men did not know love even though they had christian theology. Love made some spiritual, and their religiousness was fine. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/14/2008 11:08:13 PM |
Consider this: God is loving "thought" he can not think evil.
Devil is evil "thought" he can not think love.
Without hate their can not be love.
Interestign proposition. In this sense the existence of God necessarily presupposes the existence of Evil, and God cannot be good without evil existing. But Evil started to exist at one point in the development of the world, God tossed Satan into hell. So since there had been no love and good before bad and evil had come into existence, God was not good and Satan was not hate. And since God is per definition is good and love, he could not have existed before Satan was tossed into the newly created hell.
Therefore God had not existed forever. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/15/2008 12:40:55 AM |
I believe in God but I don't believe in the church..
Hm. Interesting.
I do know that churches exist, no need in believing in them, they're there whether we believe in them or not. I am sure I could not say the same thing about God. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/15/2008 1:23:29 AM | My larger point is that nothing GOOD comes exclusively from religion. Again, name me one moral act performed by a believer that couldn't be performed by an unbeliever. So religion has no right to claim exclusivity in this area.
But name something bad that COULD ONLY come from faith, that no rational atheist would ever dream of thinking/doing.
Religion causes more bad than good.
Ok, I can give you an example of a moral act that can only be performed by a believer. It's also an example of something GOOD that could ONLY come from faith, that no rational atheist would ever dream of thinking or doing. As a disclaimer I never attempt to preach my religion(Judaism) to anyone else, period. But my example is from Jewish historical and liturgical (strange word for prayers) texts about the death of a famous Rabbi. The time period we're talking about is during yet another Roman conquest of Israel begining in 63 c.e. and ending in 70 c.e. with the destruction of the 2nd Jewish Temple and much of Jerusalem. The Roman authorities had a fondness for rounding up the most revered rabbis in the city to torture and kill publicly. One such rabbi was Rabbi Akiba. The Romans tortured him by combing his skin over and over with a hot iron. It was an emotional scene, particularly for his multitude of students watching up close and sobbing. However, Rabbi Akiba remained mysteriously composed, even smiling quite a bit during the whole ordeal. So finally a student asks, "Rabbi, how could you smile at such a sad time as this?" So Rabbi Akiba responds by saying that he had always wanted to fulfill the scriptural injunction to praise God "all the days of his life" right up to the moment of his death. And he's happy because he can do that, knowing his fate is sealed. As he starts to fade out of consciousness, he manages to shout the words to the Biblical proclamation of faith , "Hear Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One" and then dies. The impossible moral deed lies in the fact that among others the Roman officers were moved to tears by all this and felt remorse, even if it only lasted less than a minute. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/15/2008 1:49:13 AM | Allmusic, what exactly is the good that arose in this story, and what exactly was the religious nature of the cause or the effect?
The way I see it it's got nothing to do with religion. If a man or woman really wanted to accomplish a deed, and they died after they accomplished that deed, and they are happy about it -- that's nothing to do with faith or God or religion. In my opinion nothing more happens in your story than a man who dies happily because his life's goal has been fulfiled.
And actually, was there a good coming out of this story? The Roman officers cried? Is that such a good thing? For whom? Why? Is that good enough to make this story support the good that can only come from faith?
Yet the Rabbi Akiba's death had stemmed from a religious difference between Romans and the Jews. If you are happy that Akiba died under these circumstances, then you're a sick man, you say. And yet it gave Akiba the chance to die in peace, you say. So, which is it? A happy event, in which good was accomplished, or a sad event, in which negative things were accomplished? Was it both? For the story to work, one has to accept that it was both good and bad to have this event happen. If it was both, then how does this prove that religious thought can give rise to good? If it was both good and bad, at the same time and in the same respect, then it's not possible. So since the death happened instantaneously, there must have been two aspects from which you judge the death to be good or bad. But your story does not say that, either.
I can't believe that the story could have survived all these millennia in such a quagmire of a logical state. Either you told the story badly, or else the story never had happened, or else the story has been used to illustrate things different than to say that this is one good that came out of faith and could never have come out of a secular situation, or it is a story that has never been taken under the scrutiny of a decently intelligent philosopher. | |
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