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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/15/2008 2:13:45 AM | "Evil" is a religious-based term itself.
Religion is simply most people's desire to ensure that they won't just die and rot after having wasted most of their lives.
The "evil" part seems to come in on how adherents react when other people don't believe in their religion...or simply disagree on essentially the same desire. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/15/2008 8:35:33 AM |
CIVIL gay marriage is lawful...no one said a church has to perform it.
This take-out gave rise to an uproarious inner laughter. You just have to hold it under your lingo-perceiving light a little like this. I wish we'll see the day in which we have civil and secular legistlation that will force the clergy to marry its own members to each other. Now, that'll be something that may start a crusade or other religion-based war in Canada. But maybe it will serve as an impetus to let in females to be religious officers: Rabbis, priests and ministers; Vestal virgins and Turkish bath lovelies. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/15/2008 10:33:56 AM |
As the moral Zeitgeist changes in the world
Since when did religion have anything to do with morality. That was just a sales pitch for people looking for an easy way out of having to listen to their conscience.
OMG just imagine actually thinking you can have a relationship with the eternal spark of god that makes us alive - how outrageously presumptious that god and his lovely wife the devine goddess would deign to pay attention to one of their children - a mere mortal - one on one and a woman at that. What a rediculous concept. Who the hell do I think I am. LOL
Answer: Duh.
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/15/2008 12:44:51 PM | Allmusic, what exactly is the good that arose in this story, and what exactly was the religious nature of the cause or the effect?
The good I'll try to explain later. But I'm not sure what kind of measurable religious effect you want me to provide from the story of Rabbi Akiba's death. It didn't stop the Roman conquest, or change anyone's religion, or prevent future wars in Israel or anyplace else. The effect is simply how someone is affected by the story, be it religious or otherwise. The historical context and cause for the Roman invasion had very little to do with religion at all. (As is the case with most wars) The main reason was that the Roman Empire, large as it was, was looking for more real estate. The Land of Israel had a lot of good trade routes and exotic spices, fruits and other goods that were popular to exchange. But of course they conquered it in the name of the emperor, the empire, their gods, and whatever else came to mind. That, and they were still furious over the loss of Israel and Jerusalem during the Jewish revolt of the Maccabees a couple centuries earlier, and were hellbent on toppling the Maccabean dynasty and avenging that loss. Which they did. Since this is about the evil of religion, which religion is to blame when there hasn't been a war fought specifically in the name of the Roman gods since the fall of the Roman Empire? And yet many more wars have followed in the name of a plethora of deities, religions, empires, countries, and governments but for exactly the same reasons! And yet religion has been the one constant motivation in all these wars? Guess again.
The way I see it it's got nothing to do with religion. If a man or woman really wanted to accomplish a deed, and they died after they accomplished that deed, and they are happy about it -- that's nothing to do with faith or God or religion. In my opinion nothing more happens in your story than a man who dies happily because his life's goal has been fulfiled.
Hey it's not my place to tell you otherwise. But I think there's more to the story. Let's say a person works hard at their career and upon retirement, starts learning guitar because they always wanted to yet were too busy. Fulfilling that goal would naturally make someone's life much happier. However, I'd like to add the words "while being tortured and burned in the process!" in the case of Rabbi Akiba. Akiba could've easily fulfilled that goal in the comfort of his deathbed, if he had the chance. It's that he managed to turn the dark, depressing, and really painful circumstances of his death into an opportunity to be happy by affirming his faith. Seeing the uniqueness of this, the gathered masses were profoundly moved, including the Roman officers that killed him. But like I said before, the world didn't change as a result. Nothing changed, except maybe a few of the people that witnessed it. But the event is recorded in history so it continues to have the potential to affect people.
And actually, was there a good coming out of this story? The Roman officers cried? Is that such a good thing? For whom? Why? Is that good enough to make this story support the good that can only come from faith?
Yet the Rabbi Akiba's death had stemmed from a religious difference between Romans and the Jews. If you are happy that Akiba died under these circumstances, then you're a sick man, you say. And yet it gave Akiba the chance to die in peace, you say. So, which is it? A happy event, in which good was accomplished, or a sad event, in which negative things were accomplished? Was it both?
Mine or anyone's personal judgement of whether an event was good or bad, served a purpose or was all for naught does nothing to change whether the event actually took place. All that speculation is what follows after shit happens, and anyone can have an opinion on that. Akiba's death was in no way a happy event to me. The fact that he was tortured and killed publicly is horrible and something to be mourned and not celebrated. The only redeeming quality is in how he chose to live while he was dying. By proclaiming his faith instead of denying it, by smiling instead of crying, going out with a shout rather than a wimper. No, it didn't give him an opportunity to die in peace! He was given anything but an opportunity to die in peace, but that's what he turned it into. I don't think it's all sad and certainly not all happy. It's just profound to me, that's all.
For the story to work, one has to accept that it was both good and bad to have this event happen. If it was both, then how does this prove that religious thought can give rise to good? If it was both good and bad, at the same time and in the same respect, then it's not possible. So since the death happened instantaneously, there must have been two aspects from which you judge the death to be good or bad. But your story does not say that, either.
I already have an opinion about the nature of this story, mostly bad, but redeemable good points.
I can't believe that the story could have survived all these millennia in such a quagmire of a logical state. Either you told the story badly, or else the story never had happened, or else the story has been used to illustrate things different than to say that this is one good that came out of faith and could never have come out of a secular situation, or it is a story that has never been taken under the scrutiny of a decently intelligent philosopher.
Once again, whether you believe the story to be true or not is up to you and I wouldn't care either way. Ill give you this: I can't prove that a secular "rational atheist" would be incapable of dying with the same unwavering conviction to his beliefs as a Rabbi Akiba. You can never account for the presence of that in another human being and beliefs take on many varieties and expressions. I'm using it as an example of something good that can only arise from faith but the story is just describing an event. And any notion that it may have been fabricated to illustrate how faith triumphs over secularism, then Im sorry, but the "rational atheists" have grossly miscaculated their impact on human history. Which is yet to be determined considering the fact that there has never been a society founded upon rational atheist principles , with it's own government, language, literature, philosophy, food, song, dance and way of life. So bashing religion and blaming it for everything might be fun for a while, but much longer it'll sail way past any limits of "rationalism" until atheists can fashion some sort of alternative idealogical system based on their own concepts of the world. But Ive seen more people demanding proof of religion than trying to prove their own atheism. I don't know where atheists claim to have bought that ticket, but it's definitely not where you're supposed to sit. For one, you don't offend any deity for not believeing in it. If God truly is, then he is was and continues to be irrespective of our thoughts, actions or complaints. The only thing I know about God is that I don't know anything about God. But the Akiba story can only arise from faith in God because Akiba lived, practiced, studied, sang, laughed, cried, and prayed everyday with that faith as his core. It's not something he identified with, but it was his entire identity. And if you believe more appropriate last words of Akiba should've been "Religion is the root of all evil so don't make the same mistake I made" then I'd have to wonder about who's really chasing an illusion. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/15/2008 2:48:17 PM | To me, religion is the debasing of spirituality, nothing more.
Religion and those who are religious rather then spiritual, brought debate, strife, indifference, intolerance and many other tools which benefit and push people into spiritless living.
It is like how gold/silver and other true riches or items in which men could trade and find agreement, became fiat$ or IOU's that are controlled by those who debase all that is good.
Even our water, air, food as well as our money and our collective spirit has been debased by the same kind of people, those who are not people but employees or slaves to materialism and materialists.
They take the gold/silver and control all the commodities and other essentials and then trick people into believing that pictures or replicas of what is real are better then real just as they promote receipts are just as valuable or more valuable then gold or silver.
Religion brought idiocy into spiritual practices and allowed for creating, maintaining and escalating disharmony when we should be a chorus of human-beings. living in sync with nature and all life.
In the end, it is about those who have no spirit and need to steal, trick and or oppress that which is greater then their ego meaning they needed to debase spirituality so as to control it and those who wished to live by spiritual principles.
Religion and religious principles is essentially a business aspect created for spirituality by those who wish to gain from those who they can exploit within their web of deceit. Also, it emphasis the "Buy some toys for the kids for Christmas" mentality and the benefits spiritless vendors of lies, who work to steal spirit and oppress the lives of the ignorant who accept debt as money, lies as truth, fiat over real and religion over spirituality. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/15/2008 5:04:46 PM | | To anyone that read my post about the story of Akiba, I have to apologize for severe historical inaccuracies I pulled out of my ass and passed off as true. Based on the history I provided most of what I wrote I also made up. Except for the retelling of the account of Akiba's death, which was carried out by Roman authorities after they squashed the Bar Kochba rebellion. Akiba was an ardent supporter of Bar Kochba, and this was one reason he was executed in around 132 ad. (not 70 ad, or whatever bullshit I said) ) The Maccabean revolt took began in 167 bc against Greek authorities and Hasmonean (Maccabean) dynasty began in 142 bc and ended in 64 bc when two Hasmonean contenders for the throne asked for support from the Roman general Pompey. The next year, Rome officially took power in Judea and conquering Jerusalem and had been governing it well before Rabbi Akiba was born. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/15/2008 5:23:07 PM |
I can't prove that a secular "rational atheist" would be incapable of dying with the same unwavering conviction to his beliefs as a Rabbi Akiba.
Thanks. Fair is fair. That was my point exactly. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/15/2008 8:00:07 PM | I like how you expressed your thought in this sentence-
The "evil" part seems to come in on how adherents react when other people don't believe in their religion...or simply disagree on essentially the same desire.
I would add that religious people, although unaware of it, have basically given into wishful thinking. When other's wishful thinking conflicts with their own wishful thinking, usually about who's god is the real god, wishful thinking turns to wishful vengeance. With enough 'divine prodding' these wishes soon materialize into all the things we've come to love, genocide, ethnic cleansing etc, all naturally with God's stamp of approval, depending upon just how long wishful thinking takes to turn to dogmatic delusion. Of course having the right god telling you how to go about doing all those ungodly things in 'the good book' is all the justification needed :)
Religion is the repetitive self-sanctifying wish to never die.
Wishful thinking grandiloquently. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/15/2008 8:29:22 PM | no match- I would say, consider this- Both are imaginary.
Consider this: God is loving "thought" he can not think evil.
Devil is evil "thought" he can not think love.
Now what are you left with? Yes, having to actually think about how we've managed to survive this long as a species, and whether or not we still need invest in the childhood psychosis/panacea known as religion :) | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/16/2008 6:53:33 AM | Spirituality based on love and light and justice, with discipline, leads to habits, which are literally "religion". Religion coming from a spirituality involving uncleanness, that is not good.
Fine religion without the spirituality is an empty shell, it becomes a fine creed, but the creed supporters can go with it too far, and show they have no revelation of love.
I think the Catholic church is the fossil of St Peter's nets. They, we Christians, need revival of the spirituality of Peter and John and James the apostles. We are getting some!!!!!!!
So are they!
I am a Revivalist Christian. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/16/2008 7:56:12 AM | Relgion is not a source of evil, it is people's interpretation of the teachers of that paticular faith which often severly cloud/alter what the original teacher(s) meant.
Incidently atheism is a more problem religion than the "main" religions since it professes not faith, but absense of faith not just in god but (ultimatly) everything else. Take morality for example. In religion murder is wrong because god says so and those that disrespect this "law" will face consequences eg judgement, karma etc.
for atheists murder cant be seen as "immoral" because atheism suggests god doesnt exist so who is anyone to call murder immoral? Therefore there is no reason why we shouldnt just kill people for the sake of it. Atheists also dont beleive in consequence (well not totally true, some are atheist but beleive in life after death) so there is no karma or judgement for one's actions after death. Obviously there is the law, but everyone knows that unlike judgement in religion, it is possible to evade capture from the police and thus escape judgement.
Therefore this quickly becomes a reciepe for disaster.........The atheists who say that moral behaviour is still embraced as it is human in nature makes no sense: where in biology does morality occur? Biology at its root, professes the reverse of morality (natural selection) and with no god, a "pure" atheist would only have this to fall back on! | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/16/2008 10:26:59 AM | The Limey...
Come on man! Did they forget to give you your ration of limes today? It's funny how science told the British Navy that if they gave their sailors limes then alot less of them would die of scurvy... but it was the praying mothers and the appeal to christian ethics that got the British Navy to implement the change.
So quite scratching man! And go drink some lemonade and taste and see that all koolaide won't necessarily kill you. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/16/2008 9:09:53 PM | To say you do not believe in God is to say you have no "loving thoughts." To say you do not believe in evil is to say you have no "evil thoughts." This translates into being braindead.
Actually, msg 664 it translates into being enlightened. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/21/2008 9:18:18 PM | To say you do not believe in God is to say you have no "loving thoughts." To say you do not believe in evil is to say you have no "evil thoughts." This translates into being braindead.
Just because some of us may not worship a god or go to church it dont mean we cant love are self's or other's .
As for the devil it was created by man to believe in a place for souls who had commited bad sin's during life to be burn forever in damation but also used in the book of Revelation's wich is in the bible.
So good and evil (god and Lucifer) was placed in a book for tell the story of it all wich was written by man not a god .
And evil as christain's believe is the work of the devil but realy think about this if a man or women commits a bad crime and said to the judge the devil made me do it what do u think that judge is going to do or think?
Or when Paul Hill said after commiting murder over Abortion who was a preacher a man of god who said it was god's will to kill and people worship him even after his death as a saint what do you think about that.
So is religion evil? It can be when u have some of thease religious nut's who think by following god's word would put them in a better place .Such as Rev Jim Jone's or Paul hill to take act and kill for there believe's or in there word's god told them to do it.
So yes it can be evil to take what they where taught and use it as a comanment from god and yes this has been going on for over 2,000 year's. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/22/2008 9:16:11 AM | | Yeah... so ... but what about all those people who've been slaughtered in the name of atheism? Yeah... the "No God God" killers. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/23/2008 8:48:50 AM | The Limey
Yeah... but now we have rainbows. Tim Russert got one after his funeral and we'll all die one day away so what's your point? You wouldn't kill evil people who won't be stopped by anyother way? Oh wait... no time to debate it they're about to kill us...
skypoetone
well... some folks think cause there's a flag over the unit then that's why they're making war... the reasons for war are so multifaceted that to walk on the "religion starts wars" cliche is about as intellectual as Godzilla meets Bambi. The middle crossing saw the drowning deaths of anywhere between 100,000 to 10 million potential slaves... we'll never know. Nazi's slaughtered more than 5 million people and the Russians 3 times that and here we sit with this endlessly absurd rationalization discarding religion because its a mass murderer. How absolutely and incredibly stupid to blame what is evil on what is good. But then what do you expect from those who complete deny the exsistance of an original Creator of the Universe? | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/23/2008 9:59:05 AM |
I think the police etc need to kill a LOT more people. Starting with anyone who preaches on TV would be a good start.. And yet you inquire as to whether another is taking medications??
*incredulous* | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/23/2008 10:24:02 AM |
well... some folks think cause there's a flag over the unit then that's why they're making war... the reasons for war are so multifaceted that to walk on the "religion starts wars" cliche is about as intellectual as Godzilla meets Bambi.
When the US falls into a revolution between the haves and the have-nots I just wonder how prevalent religion will be. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/23/2008 10:51:23 AM | In summary, the habit of the mind is to believe whatever you have been conditioned and programmed to believe with a total disregard for reality.
THAT is the true evil of this world.
Most religions are harmless. Who cares if one believes in Snap, Crackle and Pop.
From the moment you came screaming out of the womb, you have been indoctrinated.
Indoctrinated means to be imbued or influenced.
Influenced means; the act or power of producing an effect without apparent exertion of force or direct exercise of command.
The only information you had to draw from for the first 2 or 3 years was your parents and relatives with very few strangers.
The information you were given could not exceed the limits of your parents and relatives knowledge during that time.
You were influenced to be what your parents wanted and you acted in a manner sanctioned by your parents. (I’m sure some kids did)
Your parents and relatives also made sure that you understood and believed the very same things that they were conditioned and programmed to believe.
(That includes religion or lack of)
As you got older and attended a school, you were influenced by the direct knowledge of others, however, you could only accept as valid and true those things that you could “believe”.
You were conditioned and programmed to “believe” that there was no boogeyman in the closet at night, strangers were bad, friends were good, it isn’t socially acceptable to pee in your bed and that your parents religion was the only religion worth having.
You were told that 1+1=2. That is called conditioning.
They told you this repeatedly and made you perform it yourself. That is called programming.
Then you were given a test to see if the conditioning and programming worked. This is called indoctrination.
You were taught “what” to believe about everything under the sun. You were “taught” how to respond to certain events and situations and “what” you should say if certain conditions arose.
For the most part, you imitated the words, deeds and thoughts of your parents and relatives.
It is called conditioning and programming.
Your beliefs stayed the same until some one or some thing challenged them with proof that over-rode what you were previously taught.
Religion is no more evil than a spoon or a duck.
It depends entirely on how one "uses" it. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/23/2008 11:13:28 AM | | Jesus said, "The just will live by faith". not reason and that is because faith goes beyond reason, time and space. Reason limits man, faith extends all possibilities. | |
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| Religion is NOT the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/23/2008 12:37:23 PM |
You were told that 1+1=2. That is called conditioning.
While I (sort of) see the point you are trying to make, the above is nonsensical. "1+1=2" is logic not "conditioning". And I can figure that out with or without religion. 
As for the point you were making, feel free to speak for your own life, but not for others. In regard to others, like me, you really don't have anything much of a clue. All you've got is a whole lot of assumptions trotted out to try and make a point. | |
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| Religion is the True EVIL in the world
Posted: 6/23/2008 1:10:18 PM | The real evil of the world is the tendency to ascribe evil to any idea and pretend its not endemic to every human heart. Religion is only as evil as the man who wields it... like every other concept in history.
The more you keep trying to remove yourself from that reality the more you ensure the same cycles of history will repeat themselves. | |
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