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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 2/27/2008 4:14:49 PM | ladybear1962 said:
for anyoneoutthere....I dont know what Catholic church you go go, but mine has always allowed non-catholics to get married in our church. But I do find that different cities do things differently. Example: Cambridge(where I live), Communion and First Confession is done in grade two. In Brantford(sister lives) however, they do First Confession in grade one and First Communion in grade two. One Church does Communion in grade three....
And outofthedesert said:
Isn't it funny how some rules change from church or diosese to another, but some rules are unbendable or unchangable.
It mainly has to do with the difference between doctrines and disciplines. A doctrine is an article of faith, and those can never be changed. A discipline, however, is simply a rule which can be altered based on the circumstances. I think the issue of mixed marriages is pretty clear. The section in the Code of Canon Law on mixed marriages is here. http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/canon/c0840-1165.htm#par2307 Basically, a mixed marriage can be authorized by the local Ordinary (i.e. the local bishop) is the conditions listed there are met.
Regarding the age at which First Communion is received, the Code of Canon Law states that Can. 913 ß1 For holy communion to be administered to children, it is required that they have sufficient knowledge and be accurately prepared, so that according to their capacity they understand what the mystery of Christ means, and are able to receive the Body of the Lord with faith and devotion.
That's why different churches administer them at different ages. The educational program they have for instruction on the Blessed Sacrament may vary from one church to another. My own parish church has the only program in the city which has a one-year (but much more intensive) program instead of a two-year or three-year program. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 2/27/2008 4:39:09 PM | | I don't think u have been informed as to how this will effect ur children or u for that matter further down the road.U and he exchanged vows before God and in so doing u became as one.Now this man wants u to claim as he is willing to claim that u were never of one mind or in one bed for that matter.This is simply not even a question or it shouldn't be.Do u think God would say u were never married?How can u ask ur children to say this man was never their dad or ur husband even though they and others witnessed ur marriage the day of and the yrs after.I think it would be best if u asked in prayer for guidance on this and it also would not hurt for u to read in ur bible concerning marriage.Good luck and God bless. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 2/27/2008 4:56:21 PM | I went through an annulment when I divorced my ex husband with the help of my priest. When you marry in a Catholic church it is "forever". When you get a divorce you are not legally married to that person anymore but in the "eyes" of the church you are. The only way that you can be "unmarried" in the "eyes" of the church is through an annulment. Under certain unforseen instances ( my ex was a drunk also) the church will grant you the annulment. They will mail you a huge packet of papers that have to be filled out not only by you but by people close to you such as a sister or parent or someone who was close to both of you while you were married. I didn't think it was that bad of a process. They do ask you for money though (as a donation they say). At the time I did not have the money to send them and they sent me a bill for years. That was very annoying. If your ex wants to get married again in a church you have to grant him the anullment. That is the only way that the church will allow it. Hope this helped! From someone who has been there, done that, Debbie  | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/1/2008 4:30:14 PM | | Hi Angel; Just wanted to let others know, that it is the same in Germany as well. My brother went through an anullment as well( his wife cheated). He said all the papers he had to fill out was ridiculous...He went through alot, but he said it was worth it, as he wanted to re-marry in the Church...He did so about a year later. And over in Germany, you get married legally first, and then you get re-married in the Catholic Church. Needless to say they haven't gotten married in the Church yet... | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/1/2008 5:33:08 PM | About 99.9% of my experience with catholics comes from Irish catholics when I lived in London... therefore, even tho I know possibly 200+ of them, they ALL drank & gambled... the .1% who didn't was the 5yo kid of a girl I was dating...
Jeeze, it's not like I bought up them sheltering & protecting kiddy fiddlers. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/1/2008 5:52:31 PM | Limey tsk tsk...be nice :) Ladybear is right...they are in all religions.
Thank you Jacobus and Outofthedesert for the info! I found it all very interesting. It's funny how sometimes you may think you know all about a religion other than your own..... but you really might not have a clue! I think it is interesting how different religions think and what they believe in.
I got paperwork last week from the Dociese here in my town and it said....
"With this letter, I with to inform you that we have been contacted by the Tribunal of the Diocess of (ex's county), and have been advised that your former husband entered a Petition of Invalidity of your former union with the same Tibunal. Since you do not reside within the canonical boundaries of that diocese, it is neccassary that you be notified and asked if you have any substantial objections to that same Tribunal handling this case."
So....I will call them on Monday and say that it's fine.
How can u ask ur children to say this man was never their dad or ur husband even though they and others witnessed ur marriage the day of and the yrs after
Lee, I think you might have missed my earlier post but we didn't have children. I do know however that if we did have children I might be looking at this whole situation alot differently.
They will mail you a huge packet of papers that have to be filled out not only by you but by people close to you such as a sister or parent or someone who was close to both of you while you were married
That is what I am curious about...the dreaded papwerwork! I also told him in NO way would I pay anything for this. This is what he wants then he is paying. I paid for enough of his mistakes when we were married. I told him too that I wouldn't answer any questions that I did not feel comfortable with.
Thanks again everyone! | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/1/2008 6:02:05 PM | OP, I obtained an annulment through the Catholic Church about 20 years ago. I don't know how much has changed since then, but if I can be of help, please send me a personal message.
I did not find the process to be onerous. I found the process to be respectful and compassionate.
It is my understanding that, if two people are practicing Catholics, an annulment is usually granted in order to make it possible for the couple to participate fully at Mass (ie Communion). The grounds are much more flexible than they used to be. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/1/2008 6:30:36 PM | When I was engaged a million years ago my fiancé had been married before. Being raised Catholic, it was my dream to be married in the Catholic church. When we went to meet with the priest for our pre-marriage counseling we find out his marriage had to be annulled before OUR marriage could take place. He filled out all the paperwork which took hours and hours.
The Diocese wanted a donation, which never got made. I have no clue if his ex-wife filled out the paperwork or not. We were never advised of that.
All wedding plans were put on hold because the church would not even consider marrying us in the church without the annulment. A year later, we still didn’t have the annulment, and got married by a judge. There was no hearing, no contact from the Diocese, no contact from anyone.
3 ½ years later I got a copy of the paperwork granting his annulment. Too bad our divorce had been final the month before.
I was told by our local priest that since I was never married in the church, I was not married in the eyes of God and my son was a b@stard child and could never receive any of the sacraments. A couple of years after that I happen to be home and run into one of the priests. Lots of small talk and he asks about my son. Asks if he’s been baptized and I told him no and why. At that time I was told that wasn’t true and my son could and should receive the sacraments. Funny thing, it was the same priest that told me my son was a b@stard. Go figure. Opinions from Other priests from other churchs varied with some telling me that my son was never a b@stard and others telling me he still was.
Since the annulment totally voids the marriage it seems to be unclear what the status is regarding children born of the marriage. That largely seems to be up to the priest you are talking to.
I found out later that the annulment process goes quicker with a donation and the larger the donation, the quicker it goes. The process seems to vary from Diocese to Diocese as far as how quickly things get processed. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/1/2008 6:59:38 PM | I am ashamed to say I was formerly Catholic, and applied for annullment. My family, friends and relatives were questioned and they stuck up for me. I had counselling to support me through through the process for about a year, so I would be able to discuss the events. I was told the fee would be $850 Australian 8 years ago. I was told the only means of gaining the annulment was for me to claim not to understand the concept of marriage. The ex had every bad thing going for him bar drinking and outright violence. I was told infidelity and and std doctor's record were not admissable considerations, nor were the false representations that he made prior to marriage about the nonexistence of his father's extreme mental illness....
I would be against completing the annullment forms, because as you know it is always the "wife's fault" for "not understanding the requirements of marriage" ha.
I am with ratpack - an institution with such an appalling record against humanity, has no business pretending to be "Christian". In my view the church with its patriarchal attitudes, contempt of women, bigotry and acceptance of paedophiles and abusive violent husbands - is in no way placed to attempt to do the job it purports to do.
The Catholic church had extensive networks throughout Europe that reported back to Rome in the 1930s they knew exactly what was happening to the Jewish and other marginalised people - and kept silent every bit as much as the "surprised" allies.
After my divorce, remaining celibate and continuing to take the sacraments for years later. I was approached by other women in the congregation, that I should not be accepting the sacraments.....
The church in my eyes hasn't changed a bit, OP you would be doing that poor girl a sincere favour if she does NOT, get married in a Catholic church...it will make the inevitable bust up a lot easier on her. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/2/2008 12:15:03 AM | TheLimey said:
You say the ex is an alcoholic & a gambler? He'l fit right in with the catholics. ;)
Being either a drunkard of a gambler (excessive gambling, anyway) is against the Catholic faith. Of course, we readily admit to being sinners, so I'm not saying it doesn't happen.
However, I've not met many Irish Catholics, and none that fit this stereotype.
alwaysme2 said:
Thank you Jacobus and Outofthedesert for the info!
You're welcome!
transparent butterfly said:
I was told by our local priest that since I was never married in the church, I was not married in the eyes of God and my son was a b@stard child and could never receive any of the sacraments. A couple of years after that I happen to be home and run into one of the priests. Lots of small talk and he asks about my son. Asks if he’s been baptized and I told him no and why. At that time I was told that wasn’t true and my son could and should receive the sacraments. Funny thing, it was the same priest that told me my son was a b@stard. Go figure. Opinions from Other priests from other churchs varied with some telling me that my son was never a b@stard and others telling me he still was.
The Catholic Church will only deny baptism to a child if there's a reason to believe that the child will not be raised in the Catholic faith; i.e. that you're just there to pour water on his head and never darken the church's door again. But the issue of legitimacy would be irrelevant here. The only thing that the Church really does with the legitimacy issue is ban **stard children from becoming diocesan priests or being appointed to certain positions. This was a Counter-Reformation safeguard against nepotism: you know, the problem of certain Renaissance popes appointing their so-called "nephews" as cardinals, etc.
Since the annulment totally voids the marriage it seems to be unclear what the status is regarding children born of the marriage. That largely seems to be up to the priest you are talking to.
If children are born under a supposed Catholic marriage which is later annulled, they don't suddenly become **stards. In 1134 of the Code of Canon Law, it clearly states that these children remain legitimate, since they were conceived in, I suppose you could call it "good faith".
Quicksilver217 said:
I am ashamed to say I was formerly Catholic, and applied for annullment. My family, friends and relatives were questioned and they stuck up for me. I had counselling to support me through through the process for about a year, so I would be able to discuss the events. I was told the fee would be $850 Australian 8 years ago. I was told the only means of gaining the annulment was for me to claim not to understand the concept of marriage. The ex had every bad thing going for him bar drinking and outright violence. I was told infidelity and and std doctor's record were not admissable considerations, nor were the false representations that he made prior to marriage about the nonexistence of his father's extreme mental illness....
I would be against completing the annullment forms, because as you know it is always the "wife's fault" for "not understanding the requirements of marriage" ha.
I am with ratpack - an institution with such an appalling record against humanity, has no business pretending to be "Christian". In my view the church with its patriarchal attitudes, contempt of women, bigotry and acceptance of paedophiles and abusive violent husbands - is in no way placed to attempt to do the job it purports to do.
The Catholic church had extensive networks throughout Europe that reported back to Rome in the 1930s they knew exactly what was happening to the Jewish and other marginalised people - and kept silent every bit as much as the "surprised" allies.
If I were you, I'd be more ashamed about spreading myths and lies about the Catholic Church's role in the 1930's. Pope Pius XII made heroic efforts to rescue Jews and Allied soldiers from the death camps of Nazi Germany. As Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli, he and Pope Pius XI took a stand against the Recih in the encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge in 1937. Immediately after Pacelli was elected Pope, the Germans were alarmed.
"Pacelli has already made himself prominent by his attacks on National Socialism during his tenure as Cardinal Secretary of State, a fact which earned him the hearty approval of the Democratic States during the papal elections. . . . How much Pacelli is celebrated as an ally of the Democracies is especially emphasized in the French Press."
Regarding the first arrests of Jews in Italy in 1943:
"The Pope spoke out strongly in their defense with the first mass arrests of Jews in 1943, and L’Osservatore Romano carried an article protesting the internment of Jews and the confiscation of their property. The Fascist press came to call the Vatican paper ‘a mouthpiece of the Jews.’ "
During the Nazi occupation of Rome, 180 Church buildings were used to hide, feed and clothe Jews and other people in danger of being caught. The Roman synagogue was disguised from the Nazis with papal banners rolled over its walls. The Pope also provided for the creation of fake passports. Of all the Axis countries, Italy had by far the least number of Jews deported to concentration camps.
The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, was very thankful for the Pope's efforts in saving the Jews that he converted to Catholicism and took the Pope's first name, Eugenio, as his own. He said: "What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts. . . . Priests and even high prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism."
Albert Einstein said: "Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty."
A few other comments to your post:
In my view the church with its patriarchal attitudes, contempt of women, bigotry and acceptance of paedophiles and abusive violent husbands - is in no way placed to attempt to do the job it purports to do.
Contempt of women? And I spend enough time in the religion part of this forum trying to refute the accusation that "Catholics worship Mary". LOL! When will these people make up their minds?
The Catholic Church does not have any contempt for women. We greatly esteem the Blessed Virgin Mary as the mother of God and the Queen of heaven. We also honor a multitude of female saints such as St. Mary Magdalen, St. Martha, St. Catherine of Siena (who was famous for being a counselor to popes), St. Hildegard of Bingen (who established and ruled over many convents like a feudal lord), Servant of God Queen Isabel of Castile, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Gianna Molla, and recently, Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta.
If you don't like patriarchy, there's nothing I can say that will deny that Catholicism is patriarchial. It is, obviously. However, contrary to all the nonsense one may find in books such as The Da Vinci Code, the Catholic Church made an incredibly positive influence on women in western civilization from their former treatment in Greco-Roman society. The off-hand examples I can name are its abolition of polygamy in the West, its bringing to an end a man's capability to put a woman away to shame by divorce (Henry VIII had to break away from the Church to do this to Queen Cahterine of Aragon), the end of the Greco-Roman Madonna/whore complex by demonstrating how women could live honorable and holy lives as nuns and abbesses, and very importantly, the medieval world's entrusting of political power to women. When a king went to war, it was very common for the queen to take over as regent. This custom largely disappeared, however, in the Renaissance and the revival of Greco-Roman attitudes about the sexes.
Finally, good, orthodox Catholics do not accept pedophiles as practicing priests. If I knew my pastor was a pedophile (although he certainly is not), I would string him up on the flagpole outside the church for the cops to drag him away.
The media really likes to blow up the image of the Catholic Church as a whole hiding pedophile priests everywhere, but my archdiocese has a no-tolerance policy about this. Pope Benedict XVI has also seen to it that strong measures are taken at the seminaries, etc.
Finally....
After my divorce, remaining celibate and continuing to take the sacraments for years later. I was approached by other women in the congregation, that I should not be accepting the sacraments.....
Well, I can certainly tell you that the women who told you that were speaking against Catholic teaching. This document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, written by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, makes it pretty clear. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_14091994_rec-holy-comm-by-divorced_en.html
Even a supposed husband and wife who have been annulled but continue to cohabit together for the sake of their children can receive Communion, as long as they abstain from sex/the "marital union". | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/2/2008 5:48:40 AM |
It is my understanding that, if two people are practicing Catholics, an annulment is usually granted in order to make it possible for the couple to participate fully at Mass (ie Communion). The grounds are much more flexible than they used to be.
Trust me, it is not easier. The Church wants to perserve the marriage. I could not get an annulment even though he lied about lots of things premarriage and withheld other information. My Diocese does not charge. Not going to reopen that can of worms.
For the last time--children conveived in any marriage are legitimate and continue to be so after the end of the marriage, Catholic or not. To state otherwise is false and an old tale to keep people in a marriage so as to not change the status of the children. Church aside, who gives a flying flip anymore--cerainly not the huge increase of unwedlocked birthing mothers. Not being judgemental, but for the majority of Americans--**stardization is no longer the stigma it once was.
As long as you don't date and do anything a spouse would object to--you can receive communion and other scraments. My priest withheld communion because he knew I was dating, even though celibate--simply because dating was something my "husband"--civily divorced" would object to. And what did I think about him having a woman living with him | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/2/2008 5:58:02 AM | Jacobus says:
transparent butterfly said:
I was told by our local priest that since I was never married in the church, I was not married in the eyes of God and my son was a b@stard child and could never receive any of the sacraments. A couple of years after that I happen to be home and run into one of the priests. Lots of small talk and he asks about my son. Asks if he’s been baptized and I told him no and why. At that time I was told that wasn’t true and my son could and should receive the sacraments. Funny thing, it was the same priest that told me my son was a b@stard. Go figure. Opinions from Other priests from other churchs varied with some telling me that my son was never a b@stard and others telling me he still was.
The Catholic Church will only deny baptism to a child if there's a reason to believe that the child will not be raised in the Catholic faith; i.e. that you're just there to pour water on his head and never darken the church's door again. But the issue of legitimacy would be irrelevant here. The only thing that the Church really does with the legitimacy issue is ban **stard children from becoming diocesan priests or being appointed to certain positions. This was a Counter-Reformation safeguard against nepotism: you know, the problem of certain Renaissance popes appointing their so-called "nephews" as cardinals, etc.
Well, jacobus, this is great in THEORY. However, considering I was raised in the Catholic church, attended mass every week, instrumental in starting a youth group for the teens which was lacking in the church, youth advisor for the church, bible study, etc., etc. I am pretty sure that the priest knew my son would be raised in the Catholic faith and I was not just there to "pour water on his head and never darken the church's door again". The huge issue was that since I was not married in the church, my marriage was not recognized by the church and "in the eyes of God' and therefore my child could not receive the sacraments.
Many things work well in THEORY, but when mere mortals get to make the decisions, the theory goes out the window and personal feelings of the powers that be enter the equation.
Since the annulment totally voids the marriage it seems to be unclear what the status is regarding children born of the marriage. That largely seems to be up to the priest you are talking to.
If children are born under a supposed Catholic marriage which is later annulled, they don't suddenly become **stards. In 1134 of the Code of Canon Law, it clearly states that these children remain legitimate, since they were conceived in, I suppose you could call it "good faith".
Again, great in theory, but the reality is, I have seen the church practically shun children who have parents who have gotten a divorce. While I certainly respect your knowledge on these subjects, life experience is very different. Some of these things happened before you were even born and while Canon Law has not changed much if at all in years, life has.
The Catholic church has views and standards that are archiac on many levels and this is clearly one of those cases. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/2/2008 6:07:24 AM | Ok, you're getting waaaaay too upset over this. A Catholic annullment only means
that his previous marriage is null and void in the eyes of the 'Catholic Church'. Not
that it never existed. Since he never married you in a Catholic Church, his first
marriage is being declared annulled, so that he could marry his new woman free
and clear 'within the bounds of the Catholic Church'. Just like a driver's license,
or a high school diploma, it's just paperwork. It's no big deal. You said you and
he have been apart for a long time, so just let it be. If you have to sign whatever,
or do nothing, just let it go. Go on with your life and be happy. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/2/2008 9:40:38 AM |
A Catholic annullment only means
that his previous marriage is null and void in the eyes of the 'Catholic Church'. Not
that it never existed
This is what I believed. Trust me, I am not too upset and haven't lost sleep over this in any way.
The only thing that would make me upset is if he lied...but I would be upset with anyone who claimed to be a christian and lied in a church or to a priest whether or not we were married or they were just a friend. In my opinion that is just wrong.
We both moved on with our lives a long time ago and both of us are very happy in life. I started this thread in order to gain an understanding of the process and the beliefs of the catholic church. I also wanted to hear stories from other people and their experience with it in order to know what is expected and is involved. It sounds like it varies from couple to couple and some people have had very bad experiences with it.
I never once thought my marriage would be deemed non-existent outside of the church nor did I think if I had children (which I don't) that they would be considered **stards. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/2/2008 10:50:00 AM | Being either a drunkard of a gambler (excessive gambling, anyway) is against the Catholic faith.
I just thought of a catholic I knew who wasn't Irish, but he did drink & he did gamble:
My maternal grandfather. He was the last catholic in my family.
I didn't know he was a catholic until my mother mentioned it a few months back... & he died when I was 32 aged 96.
I didn't say "drunkard"... I said they drank....
What precisely is the catholic definition of "excessive" gambling?
Is there a percentage of the weekly pay they can piss away on the horses without condemnation? & where can I find the figures?
It appears to me that the catholic church positively encourages gambling, moving kiddy fiddling priests about to escape prosecution being the worse example. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/2/2008 9:00:28 PM | transparent_butterfly said:
Well, jacobus, this is great in THEORY. However, considering I was raised in the Catholic church, attended mass every week, instrumental in starting a youth group for the teens which was lacking in the church, youth advisor for the church, bible study, etc., etc. I am pretty sure that the priest knew my son would be raised in the Catholic faith and I was not just there to "pour water on his head and never darken the church's door again". The huge issue was that since I was not married in the church, my marriage was not recognized by the church and "in the eyes of God' and therefore my child could not receive the sacraments.
Many things work well in THEORY, but when mere mortals get to make the decisions, the theory goes out the window and personal feelings of the powers that be enter the equation.
You're right, there's a difference between law (not theory) and practice. I experienced this for myself when I first approached a Catholic priest to be baptized. It was when I was 16, and I had first made the decision to convert to Catholicism. I remember walking by foot all the way to the nearest Catholic church and talking with the pastor there. I demonstrated my knowledge of the catechism, the Apostles' Creed, the seven sacraments, the Ten Commandments, and even more advanced issues like the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent in the 16th century. LOL, you know what he did? He turned me down! Or to be specific, he told me I had to get a parental signature on a form in order to attend RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) courses. And since my mother is a serious Protestant, she would have never done that.
So, I walked to that church every Sunday for the next two years to attend Mass but not receive Communion.
When I turned 18, though, I got a job, bought a car with the job money, and used that car to drive to another church on the other side of town, a very traditional one with the Latin Mass. I spoke with the deacon there, and after 5 minutes, he asked me flat out, "when can I mark you down for baptism?" I was marked down for the next Saturday, and bam, on Christmas Eve, I received baptism, confirmation, and First Communion in one fell swoop. No classes necessary. No annoying paperwork.
So yes, I know that the practice is different from church to church. I had to put up with being an unbaptized heathen while still going to Mass regularly for two years! But, at least for me, it's the belief that counts. People often accuse Catholicism of being "priestcraft" or "relying on mortal men". But I was able to see past the faults of individual priests and look at the big picture.
I hope that helped you!
TheLimey said:
I didn't say "drunkard"... I said they drank....
Technically, we're both being inaccurate. You originally said "alcoholic". Ladybear in Msg 56 introduced the word "drunks" and I probably just hopped on after that. 
What precisely is the catholic definition of "excessive" gambling?
Is there a percentage of the weekly pay they can piss away on the horses without condemnation? & where can I find the figures?
No figures necessary. Simply, that when someone gambles to the point that he neglects his or his family's daily needs, that no longer becomes acceptable entertainment for Catholics. It becomes sin. Or, to quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church's commentary under "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself":
2413 Games of chance (card games, etc.) or wagers are not in themselves contrary to justice. They become morally unacceptable when they deprive someone of what is necessary to provide for his needs and those of others. The passion for gambling risks becoming an enslavement. Unfair wagers and cheating at games constitute grave matter, unless the damage inflicted is so slight that the one who suffers it cannot reasonably consider it significant.
It's an important distinction because, for instance, race horse earnings can be used to pay charities or services that perform good works. For example, I'm set to volunteer with the Knights of Columbus later on to raise charity money at a sponsored horse race.
It appears to me that the catholic church positively encourages gambling, moving kiddy fiddling priests about to escape prosecution being the worse example.
I believe that the priests and bishops who committed those grave sins will receive their just deserts on their judgment days. Because bishops are responsible for so much, a famous bishop named St. John Chrysostom wrote that "the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops".
It would be wrong, though, to assume that the entire Catholic Church of even most of it approves of that behavior in any way (the sex abuse or the hiding of offending priests). A priest who was guilty of that would not last very long under my archbishop. He would get pwned, and quickly. The famous archbishop of Canterbury, St. Thomas Becket, was quite harsh with wayward priests and would imprison them in dungeons underneath monasteries, giving them bread and water rations and lashing them at the altar, LOL. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/2/2008 10:11:08 PM |
I believe that the priests and bishops who committed those grave sins will receive their just deserts on their judgment days. Because bishops are responsible for so much, a famous bishop named St. John Chrysostom wrote that "the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops".
According to the catholic church it doesn't work that way, all they have to do is confess their sins before they die & they are forgiven.
Basically that means the big guy upstairs condones what goes on down here if you do this confession malarky... AND the book also states "judge not etc" so we aren't supposed to condemn them either.
So Cardinal Mahoney can act like Dr Joe Mengele & faces NO consequences...
The ultimate hypocracy...Nice get out huh?
The way I see it, *anyone* who gives $$ to the catholic church is condoning child abuse. "Here's $10 to help pay for the legal settlements, keep up the good work..." | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/2/2008 10:25:18 PM | Been there, done that. I divorced a pedophile and the investigation showed that my part in the marriage was legitimate (I married until death) but it takes two to make a marriage and he was not capable of making a commitment. He thought I would never divorce because I was Catholic (he was not) but I could never trust that my kids would be safe. I did not FEEL single until I got my anullment. I have no idea if my ex or any other witnesses filled out any questions but the three names I submitted were people who knew us as a happily married couple. Only the validity of the marriage was in question not him or me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was a single mom and going back to school. I had no resources to pay but received my papers. My divorce on the other hand took several years to pay for. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/2/2008 10:32:19 PM | | Anullment does not affect the children. It simply means the marriage is not valid as a sacrament. No amount of prayer will result in my decision to stay in a marriage with a pedophile or an abuser. God forgives our weaknesses, why can't you? | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/2/2008 10:54:20 PM | TheLimey said:
According to the catholic church it doesn't work that way, all they have to do is confess their sins before they die & they are forgiven.
They must confess with true sorrow and repentance and do penance/make amends or have it done to them in purgatory. Confession does not mean simply reciting a laundry list of bad deeds to a priest in a box. It requires a spiritual conversion.
The statement should have implied that I was speaking about the ones who get away with it and never repent of their errors. If it didn't, my apologies.
Basically that means the big guy upstairs condones what goes on down here if you do this confession malarky... AND the book also states "judge not etc" so we aren't supposed to condemn them either.
True. I don't advocate judging anyone, either (that is to say, judging whether an individual is destined for heaven or hell). But there's nothing wrong with a Catholic saying that he believes that God punishes people for sin. And that's all I said.
And so:
So Cardinal Mahoney can act like Dr Joe Mengele & faces NO consequences...
The ultimate hypocracy...Nice get out huh?
Absolutely not. Here, I would refer to the parable in Luke 12 of the debtor in prison. "I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence until thou pay the very last mite." A Catholic (unlike, say, a Protestant) believes that an individual must make satisfaction for the consequences all of sins by either penance in this world or in purgatory, before entering heaven. The common Protestant objection is that this devalues the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, but the real purpose of this belief is simply a balanced understanding of an all-just and an all-merciful God. To use the common "Hitler" example, this means that it Adolf Hitler truly repented the instant before he died, he would still be granted the Beatific Vision in heaven, but not before enduring the suffering that's necessary to "pay" for all of his sins.
The way I see it, *anyone* who gives $$ to the catholic church is condoning child abuse. "Here's $10 to help pay for the legal settlements, keep up the good work..."
Did you just accuse me of condoning child abuse? LOL, the gall of some people on the Internet....
A couple of problems with your accusation here.
1.) The Catholic Church, contrary to all popular belief and mainstream media myth, does not suffer from a larger sex abuse scandal than other Protestant churches in America! As I wrote in another post on this forum:
Refer to this article from the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/16/us/16protestant.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
The Protestant churches receive about 260 reports of child sex abuse per year by clerics, while the Catholic Church receives 228. Now, it should be said that that's still 228 or 260 cases too many. But you're dead wrong if you think you can paint the entire Catholic Church with the same brush and say that we, as a whole, support and hide child molesters. My archdiocese has a quite strict no-tolerance policy regarding this issue, and so do many others. Another problems with your generalization is the fact that the Catholic Church in America, where the vast majority of these stories are reported in, is only a small part of the Catholic Church as a whole.
I'll also reference this article from the Christian Science Monitor: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html
It says:
"Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers."
And so, by extension, anyone who donates to any denomination's church or synagogue is condoning child abuse, because it appears across the board in religions that have more than 1 member.
2.) An even more serious problem is this: do you pay taxes? If so, your money likely goes to your local public school district. Why is this a problem? Because public school teachers, statistically speaking, commit child sex abuse at a rate 100 times higher than clergymen of any denomination. So, if you pay taxes, does this mean you support child abuse? If you send your kids to a public school, or you throwing them in the lion's den?
Of course, the obvious answer to all of these is no.
So, I'd appreciate it if you backed off the anti-Catholic rhetoric. It's not much different from the hysteria of 19th century America which led people to believe that Catholic immigrants were staging some sort of coup to destroy Protestant public schools, the Constitution and hand the country to the Pope on a silver platter, with the assistance of Jesuit spies and papal invasion armies. Thanks. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/18/2008 10:38:04 AM | I went through an annulment many years ago, but as I recall it was quite easy. My husband-to-be wanted the annulment because he is RC and even though we were not planning to marry in a catholic church, he felt the need to expunge my past. My first husband was willing to help out. The annulment was actually based on the fact that my first hubbie had never been baptized. As soon as the diocese heard that, it was a matter of dotting i's and crossing t's, and it was done. We did have to answer lots of questions, and that, I felt, was a great exercise. It helps to sort out emotional issues as well as legal ones. I only wish my future husband had had to answer questions. After less than a year of marriage, he had a lasting affair that ended our marriage, and my first husband is under the impression that annulments mean our marriage never existed. I lost a great friend (my 1st ex) because of this belief, and lost a second husband because he put more value on having me jump through hoops than on the sanctity of marriage. My only real advice is that if you go through with this, do it for yourself and be comfortable with your decision. And after having gone through it, remove all doubts and resentments from your consciousness. The past is gone.
Best wishes to you! | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/18/2008 10:45:30 AM | | I have been reading through the threads, and find that the topic has not only gotten way off course, but has turned more personal and, to some, vicious. I am guessing the original poster was hoping for some advice on her situation, not on how wonderful or terrible the Catholic church is. I agree with the sentiment about backing off of the anti-Catholic rhetoric. I am not Catholic, am not a huge fan of the faith as a whole, and still love many friends who embrace the faith. Respecfully, I say: Let's not make this personal. You may be trespassing on someone who could be your neighbour, friend, or potential future mate! And if you care to continue the conversation, perhaps another subject line would be apropos. | |
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| Has anyone gone through an anullment in the catholic church?
Posted: 3/19/2008 6:11:14 PM |
My only real advice is that if you go through with this, do it for yourself and be comfortable with your decision. And after having gone through it, remove all doubts and resentments from your consciousness. The past is gone.
Best wishes to you!
Thank you Hawlia for your advice and opinion I really appreciate it. :)
Best wishes to you too! | |
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