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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/1/2008 12:49:35 AM | Lets simple this up- our consciousness is an amalgamation of our senses- sight, touch, smell, ect- and these senses come from nerves. Our consciousness is our bodies way of organising these nerves- plants do not have nerves.
No nerves, no consciousness
http://skepdic.com/plants.html | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/1/2008 11:10:40 AM |
Lets simple this up
Brilliant! May I borrow this quote? 
our consciousness is an amalgamation of our senses
And you know this how?
No nerves, no consciousness
And women don't have a soul. Wonder what thought process leads people to these conclusions... | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/1/2008 11:05:44 PM | I do believe plants have consciousness, and here's why.
A good friend of mine can sense what plants sense, especially trees. That may sound far-fetched but I've seen it happen with her so often I can't help but believe it. The most dramatic example happened a couple of years ago.
One summer day we were taking a walk through the woods when she felt so much pain coming from the trees up the hill to our right that she became physically ill. We reversed course and got her out of there. I looked up the hill and could see nothing out of the ordinary.
Months later a beech tree fell on that same hillside. As is my custom, I cut the smaller pieces into firewood, the bigger sections into lumber for future project use. A couple weeks later another beech fell in the same area. Then a maple. As I was taking advantage of all this newfound bounty for my woodshed and shop I noticed a long crack forming in the ground, with another a hundred feet across the slope.
The next big rain the whole hillside gave way, creating a small landslide. I have no doubt that what my friend reacted so strongly to was essentially all those trees having their roots pulled loose by the soon to be slipping hillside.
Most of us primarily focus on the five traditional senses, but many have other sensing abilities that to them are every bit as real. My friend has an especially difficult time every spring when everything comes to life and start healing all those winter ouchies experienced during their dormant period.
It seems logical to me that any living organism has some sort of level of consciousness. Just because they may not be wired like us doesn't mean they can't sense and react to those sensations.
Dave | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/7/2008 8:45:56 PM | Dave, does your friend feel the same way about animals and inanimate objects?
Nope, her interaction with them is pretty much the same as that of most folks. She's seems able to 'tune in' only to plants, particularly trees. She has shared some stories of pretty vivid dreams that could include pretty much anything - animals, plants, inanimate objects - and her spiritual practices and experiences incorporate her native american heritage, although she is well versed in Christian and other spiritual practices. She's a very intelligent, well studied woman with a strong background in science.
On another occasion we were walking up the small creek on my property and she once again was struck by a strong onslaught of sympathetic pain reaction from a basswood tree that had broken off completely at the trunk and fallen into the creek a couple of weeks earlier. I was puzzled, because I assumed after that amount of time the tree should be completely dead, not able to sense anything or send any sort of signals to her.
But upon closer examination I could see that the pieces of the tree that had landed in water were all trying to send out new shoots and leaves, and judging by her reaction, were finding the process quite painful.
I do believe that there is more to perceive than our traditional senses are able to translate for us. Some people are able to tune in to things the rest of us are oblivious to. That doesn't mean I believe every unique interpretation that I'm presented with, but in this case at least, I feel that observed phenomena validate my friend's ability to tune into what trees feel.
Dave | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/8/2008 9:04:25 AM | Not to be rude, but these animal and plant psychics, who "sense" what plants and animals are thinking, are some of the laziest con-men around- they don't even have to prove what they say is true- they simply need conviction, and a following who are desperate to believe them.
In my mind, they rank right up there with "ghost hunters"- all they have to do is walk into an area and go "oh....yea.....I sense something"
Of course, I personally have the ability to sense what pencils are thinking- usually used pencils tell me they feel used, and somewhat empty. Don't believe me? Prove me wrong(and thus, the greatest escape for these con-men- they cannot nor ever have to prove they aren't talking out their ass and making things up) | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/8/2008 9:31:51 AM |
Not to be rude, but these animal and plant psychics, who "sense" what plants and animals are thinking, are some of the laziest con-men around- they don't even have to prove what they say is true- they simply need conviction, and a following who are desperate to believe them.
Well, it's a good thing you weren't being rude, or I might have taken offense.
Both of my examples were backed up by actual observations using conventional senses. I chose those examples precisely because I could demonstrate the substance behind the reactions.
The lazy interpretation, in my mind, is to assume that there is no reality beyond what you can taste, feel, smell, hear, and see.
Dave | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/8/2008 10:26:31 AM | No, the lazy interpretation is assuming that since you feel it exists, it exists.
I once knew a kid who told me that he could hold invisible flames in his hands, and that he once changed the weather with his mind- am I somehow lazy because I felt his beliefs were a crock? Am I somehow lazy because I require my beliefs to have actual physical proof of their existence to back them up? What is more lazy- accepting all things that people claim with no proof other than conviction, or demanding that there is more evidence than someones gut feeling that the voices in their head is a product of six sense? And, more importantly, if I shared your beliefs, then whats to stop con-men from actually exploiting your faith? Even if some people gained this amazing gift, there would be absolutely ZERO ability to sort the people telling the truth from the liars.
If I said a flower is feeling sad, how could I prove it? How you could prove if I was telling the truth?
Its not lazy to expect evidence from crackpot ideas- its lazy not to question them. | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/8/2008 10:52:28 AM | Jack Handy had some interesting insights into trees:
"I think people tend to forget that trees are living creatures.
They’re sort of like dogs. Huge, quiet, motionless dogs, with bark instead of fur.
and
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down?
We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/8/2008 11:14:00 AM | | I believe they do, they seem to respond to touch, sound and ol yes light, these 3 things humans respond to as well, pretty good thought. | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/8/2008 11:25:16 AM |
No, the lazy interpretation is assuming that since you feel it exists, it exists.
Forgive me for not putting your examples in the same category of someone sensing pain from a group of trees that subsequently validated that sense by being swept away by a landslide, or from a tree broken off at the stump from its fall that closer analysis revealed was struggling to survive on what water it could glean from the creek it fell into.
You ask for physical proof. I already provided it before you attacked the validity of my posts.
I have shared your skepticism of claims that had no means of validation. Like you, I don't tend to blindly accept any claim on faith alone. Unlike you I'm quite open to the possibility that there still remains much we do not know about the world around us.
Let's set 'lazy' accusations aside for the moment. Would you not agree that it would be rather presumptuous to assume that we already know all there is to know? What further proof would you require to accept my examples as legitimate?
Dave | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/8/2008 1:30:56 PM | >>> I already provided it before you attacked the validity of my posts.
You proved it?
Your friend claimed what the plant was feeling- and this was entirely based on observing the plant, not 'sensing' it- then, upon further examination it was clear the plant was struggling with living. That doesn't mean its conscious- only alive. If a single cell organism resists death and fights to live, does that mean that it has emotions?
>>>Would you not agree that it would be rather presumptuous to assume that we already know all there is to know?
Ad ignorantiam: The argument from ignorance basically states that a specific belief is true because we don't know that it isn't true. Defenders of extrasensory perception, for example, will often overemphasize how much we do not know about the human brain. UFO proponents will often argue that an object sighted in the sky is unknown, and therefore it is an alien spacecraft.
>>> What further proof would you require to accept my examples as legitimate?
Obviously you'd have to prove firstly that plants experience emotions- then you'd have to prove that your friend is interpreting their emotions correctly.
Otherwise, even assuming that plants can experience emotions still doesn't mean that any Sam, Jack, and Harry can 'read' these emotions, without a way to prove what they are claiming is true. Conviction isn't evidence. | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/8/2008 2:46:54 PM |
You proved it?
Your friend claimed what the plant was feeling- and this was entirely based on observing the plant, not 'sensing' it- then, upon further examination it was clear the plant was struggling with living.
OK, I admit what I supplied did not constitute 'proof'. But it was evidence of a more substantial nature than someone claiming to hear voices from the dead or that they hold invisible flames in their hand. (Not that I rule those out as possibilities, but hard evidence is more difficult to come by)
And perhaps I didn't explain the circumstances clearly enough. No, my friend did not observe the broken off tree before sensing its pain. She felt the pain before the tree came within view. She did indeed 'sense' it. I didn't examine the tree until the next day. She never did.
I certainly don't claim that anything that can't be absolutely disproven must be true.
At the same time I'd rather live a life open to at least the potential for new and fascinating interpretations of the world around us than dismiss out of hand anything that can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.
We all make many decisions every day based on evidence that supports a prudent course of action but may well fall short of absolute proof.
So how about this test:
What if we had my friend select what she sensed was a healthy group of trees. Then we remove her from the area and take a bite out of one of those trees with an axe in a way that could not be visible to her when we brought her back. If she were able to correctly identify the tree upon her return would that constitute evidence to support my position? Or at least stronger evidence than asserting that some random light in the sky is an alien spacecraft?
BTW, I'd have to trick my friend into participating in such a test. She doesn't go around boasting about her ability to feel trees' pain. Only her closest friends even know. She doesn't feel the need to prove anything to anyone, and is more embarrassed than proud of this unusual trait of hers. When it happens, she is in pain as well. She doesn't welcome the experience and has actively worked on blocking techniques so she can enjoy a walk through the woods like the rest of us.
To some extent I understand your skepticism. I'm offering up a non-conventional perspective with limited evidence to support it. But your total dismissal of even the potential for what I believe to be true combined with your distortions of what I write make me wonder if there is any point in trying to make my case with you.
Dave | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/9/2008 4:50:46 AM | >>>But it was evidence of a more substantial nature than someone claiming to hear voices from the dead or that they hold invisible flames in their hand.
Granted, but I still feel its a little worse- they used the senses any of us have- and they passed it off like a mystical gift.
>>>She felt the pain before the tree came within view. She did indeed 'sense' it
Wow, so she predicted that, in a forest, there would be a tree that fell over?
those sure are rare....
>>>At the same time I'd rather live a life open to at least the potential for new and fascinating interpretations of the world around us than dismiss out of hand anything that can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Yes, but you must ask yourself;
how do we feel pain? Nerves.
Do plants have nerves? No.
So how could a plant be experiencing something that should be physically impossible from all our understanding of plants and animals? Then, how could your friend have experienced something that, in all our understanding of plants, should not have happened?
Without the ability to feel pain, how could your friend have sensed that pain? Is there something we simply do not understand about these trees- some unknown cell? If so, why isn't your friend fighting to prove the existence of this missing cell?
Of course- and this is just MY sixth sense going off here- chances are they will blame mysticism and claim that its impossible to explain through science their gift.
Theres simple ways for your friend to prove their gift- blindfold them, and tell them to speak up the instant they sense you quietly harming a plant 5 feet away from them. That'd be at least a sliver of proof.
>>> If she were able to correctly identify the tree upon her return would that constitute evidence to support my position?
If she could find it, it'd be greater proof, I grant you- not complete proof, but its a step in the right direction.
Did you know there is a mystical belief held by many nurses called Therapeutic touch, which is where they move their hands around your bodies(never actually touching you) to re-adjust your "aura", which many trained professionals claimed to have the ability to sense peoples auras? Once, a 11 year old tested their claims- they put up a cardboard block to keep the Therapeutic touch'ers from actually seeing her- they had their hand go through the box(one left, one right), and asked which side she had her hand on- since, after all, these people could sense her without touching her.
It ends up that only 44% of the time they were right- 50% was chance, so they weren't just full of it- they were unlucky, too.
And yet, despite being debunked, many people still claim that Therapeutic touch works- so belief isn't good enough evidence. | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/9/2008 7:13:55 AM |
Yes, but you must ask yourself;
how do we feel pain? Nerves.
Do plants have nerves? No.
...So to you, it's case closed. People feel pain through nerves. Plants don't have nerves. Ergo plants can't feel pain.
Then there's the other perspective - wondering how plants might 'feel' through some other means? Which takes us into new territory biologically, but new biological discoveries are made regularly.
I'm positive my friend could pass your blindfold test, essentially the same sort of thing I suggested. I'm reasonably sure that if you were to spend substantial time with her you'd soften some of your skepticism, although it's so firmly entrenched perhaps not.
Frankly, it's knowing there are others like you around that has probably kept her from letting others know about her ability. She has no desire to profit from it, and certainly would have no interest in setting herself up for ridicule. I wouldn't be surprised if she would purge herself of this ability if she could so she wouldn't have to suffer through all the sympathetic pain she does and could be like the rest of us.
Suffice it to say that I have responded to the OP's question with my sincere belief, and you have with yours. Probably best we leave it at that.
Straying off topic for a moment, although I personally do not share my friend's ability to feel what plants feel, I HAVE experienced the 'aura' phenomenon you are so sure has been debunked. I might well have failed the same test you described, but that doesn't make my personal experience any less legitimate to me.
We do in many ways each choose the reality we choose to live in. I'm quite content with mine.
Dave | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/10/2008 4:40:47 AM | >>>
Then there's the other perspective - wondering how plants might 'feel' through some other means? Which takes us into new territory biologically, but new biological discoveries are made regularly.
Then clearly we need to take a good solid look at the cell structure and maybe even the genetic make-up of plants before we begin to have any notion that plants can feel things- once again, Ad ignorantiam. And until such a time as we prove these cells or genes exist, we shouldn't dare make the claim that they do, only we haven't found it. This is nothing more than a romantic notion- that "wouldn't it be nice if plants could feel things, and have emotions?"
>>>I wouldn't be surprised if she would purge herself of this ability if she could so she wouldn't have to suffer through all the sympathetic pain she does and could be like the rest of us.
I would recommend it- if its real, then the pain she's experiencing is unnecessary, and what we could learn from it is revolutionary - if its false, then she may have actual physical or mental issues that need addressing.
Have you ever heard of the James Randi Educational Foundation's One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge? Basically, the two parties agree to conduct an experiment, so long as both parties agree to the circumstances- if they can prove under scientific standards that they have supernatural abilities, they win a million dollars. So far, out of thousands of entries, no ones managed to prove their abilities past the preliminaries.
>>> I HAVE experienced the 'aura' phenomenon you are so sure has been debunked.
Yes, and so did my aforementioned friend who claimed to be holding an invisible, heat less flame in his hand and claimed to be able to summon rain by will alone, and transferred the wonderfully vague "energy" into a shiny rock he bought. I refuse to believe such hogwash- I find it nothing more than people so desperate to believe in magic and mysticism that they are willing to delude themselves- but then again, I suppose that's my reality. | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/10/2008 5:33:19 AM | Yes I think they do, and I would like to know what they think of us.?
It probably isn't too favourable.. | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/10/2008 7:02:34 AM |
Then clearly we need to take a good solid look at the cell structure and maybe even the genetic make-up of plants before we begin to have any notion that plants can feel things
My first reaction upon reading this was to think "ah, this is what happens when you lump science and philosophy into the same category", but it's more than that. Healthy skepticism and promoting controlled experiments with repeatable and verifiable results is an import component of the scientific method, but rejecting anything not yet widely accepted as 'hogwash' seems to me to be going too far.
And this concept isn't coming from nowhere. Scientists have looked at the potential for plants to communicate for over a century. I just did a quick google search and found this recent paper to be educational:
precedings.nature.com/documents/1429/version/1/files/npre20071429-1.pdf
Among other things it notes that injured plants emit unique odors detectable by neighboring plants that serve to warn them of potential diseases, insect infestations, etc...
It could well be that my friend may have a unique ability to detect these scents.
I'm a firm believer in the scientific method. Anyone who has read my posts on climate change knows this well. But I also am a firm believer, based on personal experience, that there is still much that is 'real' that science has yet to adequately explain. I don't view that as a conflict, merely an indication that there is still much science to do.
I stray off-topic for a bit here, but your dismissal of the 'aura' effect I also find disturbing, as it too has a long history of practical use. On a personal level, I was able to detect a malignant tumor in myself before it was detectable by current medical tests over twenty years ago. Seeking prompt treatment led to its removal for a biopsy that showed it had just turned malignant and was not yet detectable by blood tests. I had no physical symptoms other than a dramatic change in my own aura in that exact location. My ability to perceive this change at the least saved me months of chemotherapy and very possibly my life, as this particular carcinoma is highly aggressive and often fatal.
You can scoff all you want, but since then I have refined my skills and continued to benefit from the results, including occasionally being able to help others.
I initially posted to share my experience regarding someone who clearly responds to pain in plants. My brief research this morning shows that there is indeed at least some scientific justification for what I have observed.
We have certainly demonstrated that our personal 'realities' vary significantly. From where I sit yours interprets any new theory as 'romantic hogwash' until proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'll continue to keep mine open to all sorts of potential, all the while seeking rational explanation for observed results and trusting my instincts to guide me along the way.
Dave | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/10/2008 6:49:17 PM | if you think of plants like an arachnid
arachnids have no nerves that we can find
not only this but feel no pain at the loss of a limb
but can been seen to pace around the edges of its cadge or teritory in the wild
to equate human emotions to it would be redundant as its mind is clearly totally different to ours and infact most of its internals are different shades and thicknesses
of jelly like stuff
but for definite has a consciousness
a plant reacts to stimuli
such as hot and cold it you monitor its ph levals
you can see a fast reacting life form
they did a experment where a man came in at random times every day and cut a plant after a while when he enterd the room the ph leval of the plant would shoot up and the amount of starch produced though photosynthesis's would drop as if the plant were preparing its self a for comming injury
is this not a sign of a intelligent mind ?
and for that matter anything which reacts to stimuli must there for be alive and be conscious
to react to that stimuli
or just like a unconscious human it would not react at all
well thats my take on things
Jeremy | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/10/2008 8:56:47 PM | I do believe that there is more to perceive than our traditional senses are able to translate for us.
That reminds me of Shakespeare's "There are more things on heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosopy".
Bravo, WvWaterfal, good for you, being able to diagnose your cancer early on, and if you and/or your Native American friend ever come to the NW, give me a buzz, I'd really love to meet both of you, would be glad to give you a lift from the airport or something. I've met Native Americans before with amazing talents of reading the land, and my mother had survived supposedly terminal cancer solely by "alternative" means, so I do believe you. | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/10/2008 9:09:15 PM | Arachnids have an entire nervous system, not just nerves. In fact, it's the only nervous system amongst the invertebrates that has synapses outside the "brain."
I'm always amazed that people don't even do a simple internet search before posting on a factual topic that can be EASILY determined to be true or false.
Plants just do NOT have the capacity to be conscious. | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/10/2008 9:38:32 PM |
Plants just do NOT have the capacity to be conscious.
Main Entry: 1con·scious
Pronunciation: \ˈkän(t)-shəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin conscius, from com- + scire to know
Date: 1592
1: perceiving, apprehending, or noticing with a degree of controlled thought or observation
2archaic : sharing another's knowledge or awareness of an inward state or outward fact
3: personally felt
4: capable of or marked by thought, will, design, or perception
5: self-conscious
6: having mental faculties undulled by sleep, faintness, or stupor : awake
7: done or acting with critical awareness
8 a: likely to notice, consider, or appraise b: being concerned or interested c: marked by strong feelings or notions
synonyms see aware
Does the above definition mention synapses or the nervous system?  | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/11/2008 4:21:49 AM | >>>1: perceiving, apprehending, or noticing with a degree of controlled thought or observation
2archaic : sharing another's knowledge or awareness of an inward state or outward fact
Do either of these apply to plants in the least?
I haven't heard a plant assert its existence....
How about I play your little game;
ex·ist·ence Audio Help /?g'z?st?ns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ig-zis-tuhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the state or fact of existing; being.
2. continuance in being or life; life: a struggle for existence.
3. mode of existing: They were working for a better existence.
4. all that exists: Existence shows a universal order.
5. something that exists; entity; being.
Hmmm- seems that the definition of existence doesn't mention you must have a heartbeat- seems like a heartbeat isn't essential to life!
Perhaps you should elaborate how something can have a conciousness without having any means of registering its surroundings- after all, a conciousness conscious of nothing is a contradiction in terms. I'm really getting sick of these vague answers that state 'well, plants can have conciousness because we can't explain how they can't'- either put up or shut up- prove how they are conscious, or stop wasting everyones time with your pesudo-science and wishful thinking.
I frankly would love it if pen sitting on the desk would spring to life and begin talking to me- but my desire for reality to meet my wishes doesn't mean reality will bend to my will- its our goal to examine reality and understand it- not conclude that anything is possible, and demand the impossible be possible because it would be preferred. | |
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| Do plants have consciousness?
Posted: 7/11/2008 9:43:38 AM |
Hmmm- seems that the definition of existence doesn't mention you must have a heartbeat- seems like a heartbeat isn't essential to life!
That's right! Objects (and living beings) without heart exist.. funny that I have to point it out.
Perhaps you should elaborate how something can have a conciousness without having any means of registering its surroundings-
Nobody said plants don't have any means of registering their surroundings. In fact, if that was true, many plants would not survive! I think you'll at least agree that a sunflower registers the direction of sunlight.
after all, a conciousness conscious of nothing is a contradiction in terms. what about consciousness of self? | |
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