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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/4/2008 10:57:03 AM | > If you ask someone to an event, or to dinner, then you
> should be the one to pay for it. Gender doesn't enter into it.
Of course gender enters into it because for 99.9% of the dates which ever happen men are still expected to ask, and to pay, even though it's 2008 last time I checked.
It's now been 45 years since Betty Friedan told American women they were childlike weaklings who should grow up and stand on their own feet, that they should stop being parasites and learn to live without sexual privilege or excuse. Seeing as how much of the feminist program has now been enshrined in law, it's a bit perplexing to find so many female knuckle-draggers wanting things back the way they were, and/or making it sound like just paying their own way is some huge imposition or insult to them? Where were they 25-40 years ago when all the changes were sailing through without much resistance? Get with the program, gals! If you want to be taken seriously about wanting equal treatment at work, you can't expect special treatment elsewhere just because you're a girl.
> It just boils down to plain old manners. You ask = you pay.
Why not new manners: "You accept, you pay"?
This would certainly encourage more asking out, which seems to be much needed. At least I certainly don't hear anyone complaining about being asked out too much. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/4/2008 10:58:26 AM | pfffft. OP: If i asked you out on a date, say, by coming straight out and mentioning a time and place to meet that involved a price tag...I'd damned well be expected to pay for it all.
*shrug* It's rare for a woman to say something like, "I'd like to take you out to [insert restaurant] tonight at 5..."
I believe if there's no reasonable attempt at consensus before the invitation, then it's going to be on the other person's tab.
I dunno, maybe i read Ms.Manners one to many times...or maybe it's just 'reasonable' to expect that, regardless.
Personally, I enjoy double-dutch whenever appropriate...dating is expensive even economy class. Except there's a fine line between us having fun, and me supporting your dysfunctional fantasy lifestyle.
If, on the other hand, there's any mindgames over financial stuff & dragged out baggage from previous relationships that paints a picture of a hypocritical martyr playing guilt trips - GTFO QUICK!
That's why I prefer going double-dutch. I've been on too many dates where getting the tab on day and putting it on yours the next tends to lead to her exaggerating her contribution and plain forgetting yours...or like i said above about mindgames: even lying about what you'd both agreed on, after the fact.
Bottom line for me: double-dutch unless it's been agreed beforehand that it's on one person's tab. Hey! It's fun to treat someone you're dating, or friends, or whomever. If the other person gets pissy about "charity", F*ck em! leave. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:00:14 AM | I never go Dutch. Just must be my luck that he always stumps up ... or perhaps its the type of guy I am attracted to - he tends to be chivalrous and old-fashioned and therefore would be offended if I offered to 'take over'. For the first date, which carries the aspect of the unknown, I am able to pay my half however if needed ... just in case it turns out that way I prepare for it in the same way that I carry wellingtons and a rope in my car in case of an accident. I would never see him again if this happened ... so very unromantic and thus a complete turn-off for me. Curtains and farewell.  | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:08:41 AM |
Why not new manners: "You accept, you pay"?
Ridiculous. All the good women would remain at home. Are you seriously saying that a wonderful, loving and romantic relationship is not worth the investment of a few dollars for the first few meetings???
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:19:55 AM | i agree with pretaporter. i went out on a date one time, and i do not drink. i ordered the special on the menu, fish & chips, which was $5.99, and drank water. he, on the other hand, ordered a salmon dinner, an appetizer which he only ate, and the salad came with his dinner, but he ordered in addition soup & an extra vegetable. during the course of the meal, he had FIVE mixed drinks. when the bill came, which was $62.00, not including tip, the waitress came back to the table 3x to take up the bill and he kept saying, "we're not ready yet." finally i said, "well, do you want to go?" and he says, "you know, you can see i'm stalling here. do i have to say it?" then he says, "i would think you'd have the common courtesy to split the bill. all my dates do." i was like, "you seriously have to be kidding. my share is $5.99 and you want half??" he then went on to trash women in general. he gave the waitress his credit card, and told me he would not leave her a tip because "i" broke him. he then walked out. i went over and gave the waitress a nice tip......
well, he asked me out. i thought he would be a gentleman & pay the bill. if we discussed dutch prior to, that is one thing, i would have paid for my meal. he just showed me right there how low budget he was. and he was working full time in a great trade. that was the first time a guy had ever asked me to split the bill. what a joke. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:40:38 AM | /\ /\ /\
That's just an extreme anectode about a strange man, not the common way normal people handle such a thing. "Dutch" doesn't have to mean splitting the bill down the middle. Obviously it only makes sense to pay for your own tab. That can be separate cheques or handing over the right amount of cash if one person wants to pay by credit card. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/4/2008 12:09:09 PM |
." i was like, "you seriously have to be kidding. my share is $5.99 and you want half??
I always make sure I either order the same or under-order my date, as I believe this is courtesy, as I would expect him to pay and not to feel that I have taken advantage of his invitation. It is always a good tip however to carry small change on a first date, just in case. He wants you to pay your share - of course! He may have my $5.99 in change, placed on the table ... exactly. Finito. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:25:18 PM | When I first started dating online 4 years ago, I always made a point of being a few minutes early & having my hot
chocolate already, by the time he arrived. No arguement, no discussion. It didn't hurt that I'd won a bunch of Starbuck's
gift bucks  not long before.
If it is something a bit more like a dinner date (which I generally don't do on a first date, anyway), I usually reciprocate
with an offer of a home-cooked meal & movie, at a later time. But as I said, that's not generally for a first date.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Actually me being of the female persuasion gives me first hand knowledge, there is no such thing as a 25.00 hair cut for a woman. - Reddwine
I know this is a little off-topic (my apologies for that), but WTF?! Is Texas a really expensive place to live, or what? I
know of over a dozen places here in Abbotsford, that are under $25 & that's not even counting doing it the REALLY
cheap way & going to a hairdressing school. Most of those are still under $10. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:53:59 PM | This thread is becoming a comedy...
The bottom line is when two people meet for the very first time it really should be dutch. Face it you have never seen each other before and if it dosnt go anywhere nobody has to feel bad that they had to pay. Like Ive said before if I really like the person Ill usually pick up the tab. But I have already been on dates where the person showing up isnt the person in the picture...and one look and you say to yourself "why me?" So with that being said. Give me a real good reason why I should have to pick up the tab in a senario like that? 
How about this one. Ive been called on the phone and asked to lunch, then expected to pay. Why? Just because I am a man?
I think the best comedy of all time would be a movie where the role of men and women are reversed! I can just see the laughs when the guys are puzzy blocking their friends or you can hear men saying things like "well i think Ill let her take me out but she better not expect me to sleep with her!"  Im telling you it would be a riot! | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/5/2008 12:29:27 AM | | Call me old fashioned but I'm personally insulted by a woman wanting to go dutch on a first date. It's her own personal display of power in a possible relationship when in all reality, most of the time the woman holds every single card imaginable anyways. It's a sign of things to come in my experiences. She's looking for a pet | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/5/2008 6:23:32 AM | I don's agree with that Slightly Stoopid
I always try to at least offer to go dutch because
- I respect the guy and don't want him to feel like I'm taking him or his wallet for granted, or that he has to pay for my company.
- On the net it's a meet and greet of 2 people getting together to see if they click rather than a romantic date.
- And lastly, some guys still feel that if they have paid for your dinner or your drink you owe them and are all put out when you won't put out.
Now I wish I could tell which was a true gentleman who honestly didn't mind (and in fact got offended) when I got my wallet out, or whom decided because I ate "his" steak that meant I had tacitly agreed to go home with him. Unfortunately in this age I would rather play it safe than sorry. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/5/2008 3:43:54 PM | A woman offering to go Dutch on the first date is trying to control the date in some way. Instead of saying 'thank you' and receiving graciously, she has the thought that in some way the man either can't cope with it, or needs helping out. This is emasculating for the man - and he is likely to take a step back. The whole relationship is out of kilter and from then on he will take the same attitude in holding back his pursuit. She wonders why he has cooled off.
Paying out of his pocket it a good way of gauging his interest - crude but true. What a man happily chooses to spend his money on is obviously important to him!
I cannot speak for women who are out for free chow - they may as well be picking pockets as far as I am concerned - this is nothing to do with love and gives the rest of us girls a bad name. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/5/2008 4:05:01 PM | I have never had this experience but if I did, there would be no second date. I have however had dates where we met for coffee but he didn't even buy me coffee. One guy took me to chilis, we had the chips and salsa but no food, sat there for over an hour. Yikes! It's a shame because he was such a fun guy to hang out with, but no dating skills whatsoever.
Personally I keep a file on everyone I date, keep track of how much they have spent.  | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/5/2008 4:23:56 PM | | yes it was a friday night and they were full because of some game on the tv or something. The total was less than 5 dollars and i'm not sure if he even tipped because he paid with a credit card. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/5/2008 5:56:32 PM | | I wouldn't know if any of my first dates have expected to pay half as I usually snatch the bill and pay it. Normally the women I've dated lately have made less money than I do so it's really no big deal to me. I certainly wouldn't have the audacity to demand they pony up for a meal we had at a restaurant that may have been out of their price-range but I dragged them to. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/5/2008 6:23:12 PM |
I cannot speak for women who are out for free chow - they may as well be picking pockets as far as I am concerned - this is nothing to do with love and gives the rest of us girls a bad name.
A first date has nothing to do with love, either. Or a relationship, or control, or any of that stuff. (I'm assuming we're basically talking about Internet dating where we're all relative strangers). I truly don't understand why some people believe going dutch is "emasculating" to a man. Manhood is made of tougher stuff than that - at least with the men I know.
Obviously, there are enough men and women who prefer the different styles, and we should date others who are like-minded. So I guess talking about it in advance IS a good idea. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/5/2008 11:54:09 PM | Dating is dutch. I'm an adult. I really don't respect women who expect others to always pay (I guess the same could be said for men too, though it is less common). It's really not fair to men otherwise, because they still do a lot of the asking.
I don't allow myself to be treated unless we're good friends (for dating or otherwise). If that starts happening, I'll treat too.
I've actually had to discontinue a friendship because of being treated. A much older buddy of mine whom I know from a professional organization started treating me more and more often (we'd go out as a group after meetings to a pub or restaurant). He started to not let me pay. One time, out for lunch he went to get up to "go to the washroom", and actually snuck up to the counter to pay.
Then he started buying me little gifts.
I don't mind being treated on occasion, but this was getting out of hand. I started to get creeped out. It clearly bothered me, I told him as much, and he did not respect that I was uncomfortable with it.
Was he just being nice, or was he expecting a different relationship from me? I don't know. But I do know I don't like the position he put me in, and he didn't respect that I was uncomfortable. It seems like a silly, small thing, but it felt controlling. Passive aggressive. Nice.
One of my male friends had a new female addition to the group he was hanging out with. She expected to be driven everywhere. They went out as a group to supper once, and she sat after dinner, not pulling out her payment like everyone else. No, she didn't forget, she just didn't intend to pay (I couldn't imagine whose responsibility she thought it was, though!) I couldn't believe people like this actually exist. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/6/2008 12:01:04 AM | quote:
Call me old fashioned but I'm personally insulted by a woman wanting to go dutch on a first date. It's her own personal display of power in a possible relationship when in all reality, most of the time the woman holds every single card imaginable anyways
Yep, it's called independence and self-sufficiency. How dare she.
I wouldn't want to date a man who would be offended at my wanting to pay my own way. Works for us all, I guess. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/8/2008 9:38:39 AM | Dawn1114 and Geekybroad at least have their head in the right frame of mind. Unlike the woman who sat there expecting total strangers to foot her bill for what? Simply because she has female genetailia? No she was one of these women who think its all about them and couldnt care less about trying to be fair because in her distorted mind she is "special" and people must pay simply for her company. In a group scenario everyone must pay their own part unless someone offered to pay for you. Nobody offered to pay for her but she sat there with the dumb blonde look on her face totally expecting for someone...anyone to pay for her. I would have told management that she is the new dishwasher! Just to get her head out of the sky.
Meeting for the first time is just that a meeting of two people who dont know each other and need to make an assesment if they want to see each other again. Dutch is perfect for women who dont want to feel obligated or like they have to put out because they owe a guy for dinner. Its also good for men who for one reason or another didnt care for the person he was meeting and didnt have to pay for dinner just because...
Now if there is a connection and a second date. Most likely the man is interested in seeing her again. Then things are different because the 2 people have alreay met and seen each other. This would then qualify as an actual date not just meeting someone.
And in most cases the man will always pick up the tab. But men do appreciate when the woman offers to pay from time to time so as to balance things out and it shows that she is not so conceited and that she can be a giving person too. Far too many takers her in Las Vegas who think a man must pay simply for the privilage of having company for a date even if she has no intention on putting out. Its the all for me and none for you attitude that really makes me mad.  Well if she is smoking hot, 10 years younger than me and really loves sex I guess I wouldnt mind because of the benefits! But thats usually not the case. What we have here on this site are a bunch of overweight women who havnt taken the time to look in the mirror and do a reality check. I think women really need to do that. I also think when women stand in front of a mirror nude and do a reality check they have to ask themselves " How picky can I be?". Also "should I be wasting too much time being so picky and tight? Or should I take a mans advances as a compliment?" next I think women also needs to realize that men are men. And men do want to have sex. No you cant have a real relationship without it so get used to the idea that at some point you will have to face it. And if your just not ready for it maybe you shouldnt be fooling yourself and wasting a mans time. If you have intamacy issues then see a counsler or a shrink and get a new prespective on the subject. No man wants to date a woman for 6 weeks only to find out she's a "No sexo" Like Jack Nicolson said in the movie "As Good As It Gets" to Helen Hunt..."Were not open for the no sexos until 9am"... It couldnt have been said better. Granted I want a quality relationship and Im not out for one night stands. But a relationship without sex will cause me to have to look for it elsewhere. When I was in my 20's and arrogant as hell. I used to tell the girls "hey if you dont do it, Ill find someone else who will". Like I said before its not all about sex. But a relationship without it is doomed. So ladies get over your fears. And remember how uncomplicated you used to be.  Be realistic about your age and weight and when a man makes a move and wants to sleep with you dont get mad or offended. Take it as a compliment! It could be worse. Worse is when no man even tries and that is a sign for you to go to the gym and get on a treadmill, buy some makeup and new clothing, also some Victoria's Secret... A littl effort goes a long way! I guess while Im ranting and raving Ill also say this. Women after their 40's are beginning to look like men with breasts. You need the make up and guys like long hair not that short "Im too lazy to do my hair do". Because it makes a man feel like he is dating another man. Men like femininity and the girly girl look. Dress sexy, take the time to do your hair and makeup. Show your best attributes. Remember men are very visual. Where as women tend to be emotional. Ive always said that "every woman has something good". Take your best and use it to your advantage. And the last thing I can say is "its easier to change ones self than to try to change another person" "be what the other person would want"...
Good luck to all and my heart goes out to everyone. I really do hope that everyone here finds that special someone because life alone is only half full. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/16/2008 10:20:40 AM | Hi , (also, to "you know who you are")
I have to say, I read your profile again and actually went and read all of the message threads and your comments on them. According to the one you are seeing someone and are at a crossroads in life and your dad is sick. You stated you may move home.
I am also a little concerned that you sound so bitter towards a lot of women? Not all of us on here are "DINNER WHORES" or looking for money... I have been on both sides of the track and am happy to say I would rather be in love and content and happy then to be filthy rich. If that was what I was looking for believe me I could have it. I have old fashion values and believe in them. I am shocked you have decided to put all of us women in one category.(I thought you would be different,even gave you my phone number) I think my profile speaks for itself and says it like it is, How I feel and what I am looking for. Not looking for a one night stand or to jump into bed with someone I barely know (your 4 date comment) If there is a chemistry and attraction and we were to get to know each other, then I would gladly let it go that far, I do like sex however, I can find that at any bar I go to , grocery store,drugstore,etc... ( I have been hit on at all of the above and more) I am not looking for just that. I am looking for a life partner. Lets face it if you are looking for someone who doesnt speak her mind,agrees on everything you say or do,shows no sign of individuality and agrees to hop in the sack after 3 or 4 dates, then that is the so called "DINNER WHORE".(overseas women looking for thier Greencard and American husband who will take care of them tend to obey and not complain because they dont want to go back to where they came from,HOW SAD!)
At my age I am looking for more than that, I know what and whom It is that I am looking for as well as what it is that I want. I am looking for someone who is not bitter about life and all that he has gone through,but considers it life lessons and hopefully it has made him a better person and someone who knows that there is that someone out there waiting for him and no bitterness.....He would be;
compassionate,intelligent,funny,witty,individual,romantic,sexy,
someone who believes every day is another chance to live and lives it like it were his last. There is more I could say about who he would be but, I am sure I covered a lot of that in my profile. I feel so sorry for all of these scammers on here and the bitterness that emmanates from them. May you someday wake up and realize life is just way to short to not just STOP and say maybe it is me that needs to change,maybe I need to stop and just listen,maybe its me who needs to figure out what it is that I am lacking and what can I contribute to a relationship,why am I so bitter?(can you answer those questions honestly?) I could go on and on again but I believe everyone gets the idea. I am copying and pasting this to the person I thought would be the one to give a chance too. I have just decided that life is to short to waste time when the "ONE" could be waiting ....
Good luck to you and thanks for the interest but I believe we are both looking for different things.. and NO I am not one of the so called "DINNER WHORES that you weeded out, just a woman who knows what she wants and believes she will find it wether it be on here or somewhere else. AND I dont mind going dutch. I just believe if one is a "GENTLEMAN" he would offer in any case,as I still would demand to pay my share. It was how I was brought up and I actually am proud of it. I wish you luck in finding what and whom it is that you are looking for. As for me I do not usually post on here but had to get this off of my chest..I dont waste my time answering or writing posts as my life is way to busy and I just dont usually have the time right now, but as I said before good luck to you and everyone else that reads this...
Respectfully To ALL,
Barbara | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/16/2008 11:36:45 AM | Oh Lord, looks like this thread is denegrating into name calling. Dinner whores? Give me a break. Who would go out with a man just because he would pay for your dinner?
I don't believe in "Dutch" EVER -- not even with my girlfriends. If you ask me out, you pay for it. If I ask, you're not even going to get the opportunity to pay. Splitting bills at restaurants is totally uncomfortable, and separate checks is even more uncomfortable -- especially for the server. In the case of people with whom I have an ongoing relationship, we take turns. If you're my friend, and I have more money than you, I'll probably pay most or all of the time. It's not a contest, and I really don't care if I'm paying or you're paying -- but I absolutely HATE cheap.
I have one female acquaintance who's just anal about money. She won't go out with me unless we split the check, so I don't go out with her anymore. Life's too short to sit there wondering who had an extra glass of wine, or the more expensive dinner. I prefer to have relationships (platonic and romatic) with people that have a much more relaxed view of money.
If a guy is asking me out on a first date or meet, and he doesn't want to spend a lot of money or any money, fine with me. A first meet can be a walk in a public place, no money involved. Or it can be a cup of coffee. Since I don't drink coffee, all you have to do is buy me a bottle of water.
Anyone who is going to make a federal case over inviting me out and paying for it isn't going to get a second date. And if I've suggested a play or dinner, or both -- the tickets have already been paid for, and the Maitre'd has already gotten my credit card number before the dinner for the tab -- least the guy think he's paying for anything.
This cheapness of spirit just doesn't sit right with me, and I'm not someone who minds picking up half the tabs, or even all the tabs if my guy has a temporary problem, but haggling over money -- pffft. If you're going to fight about who's paying for a bottle of water or a meal, you're not going to have a very happy relationship. I'd rather stay clear of people like that.
Edit:
How about this one. Ive been called on the phone and asked to lunch, then expected to pay. Why? Just because I am a man?
No, then she should pay the tab -- she asked you. If I ask a man out, I pay -- and I do it GRACIOUSLY. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/16/2008 12:06:08 PM | Early on whoever ask pays.. and if a woman really wants to see a man again after a couple dates maybe she should invite HIM out.
after a few dates, if it seems to be going somewhere, you make more equitable monetary arrangements. You SHOULD be able to discuss this on some level after several dates. | |
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