| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 6/27/2008 7:05:32 AM | Wow, what a smart girl. There are not a lot of you around. Guess what, I could buy every meal we ever have, and give you a house or 2, but iot is your attitude and self respect that makes you different. Well done babe, I hope you rub off on to other freeloaders
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 6:44:40 AM | Hmmmm ...well Ive allways paid for everything if ive ask someone out and have never had anyone object...yet ...and I havent had any "sinister motives " . If I then continually get asked out and know Im just being used as a mobile wallet ..well then I just convey this to whoever it is ...which usually freaks them out and thats the end of that . It aint rocket science .
I did once go out with a lady who was "mega " wealthy ,and must admitt I was a bit confused what to do though . I still ended up paying ..but if it had been some snoby place with rediculous prices I would have said beforehand that Im not intersted in wasting my $$$ there most likely . I did feel a bit weird though going out with a lady that was one of the wealthiest women in the State ...which is proberably an insecurity on my side of things ,as id never come across that situation before. I couldnt handle her wanting to buy me expensive $2000 suits etc (I dont even like suits...Im more of a casual everyday clothing person and feel like a complete knob in a suit) , hence had to keep tlling her I was perfectly happy with my "Ed Harry " $199 special :-) I think ive grown now though and could maybe handle meeting someone that rich if it ever happened again . Id just be up front and say if they insisted we go to the overpriced resturant they pay :-).
I wonder if women feel the same way when guys keep buying stuff /paying for stuff all the time .For me it was more of a I like to just pay my way sort of thing and not feel kept . Nothing about feeling I owed anything to her though . Hmmm I think ill go dutch next time :-) | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 8:52:12 AM | Thanks to "some" females on this post who have an intelligent, fair, resonable, level-minded attitude and point of view about this thread!
Even after all of this time there still are "many" females who just simply want to take advantage of men and get everything they can from them for no further interests or obligations to them. From the beginning, in the back of their minds they are thinking "I need to get all I can get as quick as I can get it before he gets wise to me; before he realizes that I have absolutely no interest in him and will never agree to see him again"!
Free meals abound with good nights on the town at a "nice" guys expense.
Why would anyone go anyway but "dutch"? You don't know him. He doesn't know you.
Do you OWE HIM something? No. Does he OWE YOU anything? No. You haven't even met face to face yet. That's what the whole point of this thread is about. A FIRST MEET. You pay yours....he pays his. Period. How difficult or complicated is that? You as a female did not give him a written guarantee over the phone or the internet that you PROMISE to see him again, AFTER the initial meet, did you? Did you do that? Hardly! Why does that have to be the mark of a "cheap" man? That doesn't make good common sense. Why don't you foot the bill? Let him choose whatever he wants to do, wherever he wants to go. You don't know him...sight unseen...and YOU as the female foot the bill for once UNDER THOSE circumstances. Oh No ! I don't want to do that! Oh No! that's the whole point.
So........many men have simply said enough! We go dutch from now on. And when we date regularly with the same female, or have an exclusive relationship then we alternate and take turns of who pays or who pays for what, and when, at a given time or place.
Sign of a cheap male? Hardly. Sign of a really good, decent, average guy who has been taken one too many times and has gotten wise and has had to come to the conclusion you get treated how you let people treat you! Wise, caring, understanding women know this has taken place frequently, will agree to this arrangement, not be offended and will truly appreciate it when a male pays whatever it is he pays for for the females
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 9:34:26 AM | | ist meets should always be dutch, anytime you meet someone for the first time you should split everything. youhave never met this person before, why make one party pay for everything? this is not 1950 anymore.everyone works, wants to be treated as equals, and are seeking the same thing in a wonderful relationship. if you decide to go out again, thats when the rules change.. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 9:38:57 AM | What can I say, to me the whole relationship (should I want there to be one) and much of my life is dutch, so I wouldn't notice.
Then again I don't believe in mixing money or living together either....
I always pay my own way, but since I do, the person I go with has to be interesting/good looking enough that I'd rather be with them than alone (or with friends), so keep your money, but be everything else.
I dont think that's much to ask. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 9:44:52 AM | Then again I don't believe in mixing money or living together either....
What if you get married lol?
2. If by some tragic turn of events I should decide to get married, why would that change anything? I can easily live separate, keep my last name and my finances separate.
How is that marriage exactly? Wouldn't you eventually want to at least live with your boyfriend? | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 9:46:59 AM |
What if you get married lol?
1. Why would I ever get married?
2. If by some tragic turn of events I should decide to get married, why would that change anything? I can easily live separate, keep my last name and my finances separate. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:01:40 AM | "Were all well paid, girls, sometimes more than the men we meet."
I going to respond as though you meant we're as in we are.
And that is a big generalization that, to this day. is accurate for very few women.
Even women with post secondary educations (I notice most with them assume we ALL
have them) are paid, by an overwhelming majority, significantly less than men doing the same work.
And this is 2008! If you are lucky enough to be paid based on merit, expertise and education you may have missed this reality! | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:07:45 AM | ^^^ MYTH. There is no "wage gap". Its all feminist lies.
Think about it. If you could hire women to do the same work for less pay you would only hire women. Men lose jobs to women based on quotas.
Men will ALWAYS make more because men work longer hours, take less paid leave, are less likely to switch jobs and have better negotiation skills.
Warren Farell explains it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtjaBQMog0Q | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:13:56 AM |
Even women with post secondary educations (I notice most with them assume we ALL have them) are paid, by an overwhelming majority, significantly less than men doing the same work. Any woman with an education earning less money than a man without an education does so because of poor salary negotiating skills when accepting job offers. This is a proven fact. If anything, women ought to be earning more money than men; something like 60% of college graduates are female. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:21:03 AM | As a guy, I simply pay at first. This may be 2008, but showing courtesy and respect to a woman still isn't out of style in my opinion. If she suggests ahead of time that we go dutch, and she REALLY wants to, then ok. But I would never, ever assume that's ok without knowing ahead of time. My last GF didn't start paying for anything until a good 3 or 4 months into the relationship, when we were starting to know each other well.
To me, the guy should be the one buying flowers, the guy should be the one buying candy for her, and that guy should be the one paying at least until they have an established relationship and decide otherwise. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:46:42 AM | ^^^^ A date or two is courtesy. Even thought its 2008. 3 or 4 months is just being taken for a free ride.
To me, the guy should be the one buying flowers, the guy should be the one buying candy for her,
Well who else would be doing it. Imagine her bringing him something although isn't it courtesy to bring a small gift for the one who is paying (aka the host in that situation) not vice versa. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 11:11:39 AM | How is that marriage exactly?
It's a safe one, where I have my space and financial stuff separate, the only way I would agree to get married (throwing in the sex when I want it is a clincher). But you're right it isn't marriage, because to me the concept of is obsolete, which begs the question (again)...why would I get married?
Wouldn't you eventually want to at least live with your boyfriend?
Not really...does that have to be a requirement? Sheesh I'm still trying to figure out if having a boyfriend is something I'd want in the first place (which is why I don't most of the time).
If I can find a guy who can be around when I am in the mood and not around when I'm not, he might be a keeper...my limit is about three days a week. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 11:13:08 AM | I am Canadian
I do work in payroll and have managed many restaurants and construction site offices.
What I have said is true far beyond my personal proof(which due to my work I have)
Women managers share this information and lobby for further change. The ones I know do, anyway.
When men pay each other it is not always about an effective bottom line or the woman's negotiating strategies.
I have seen it over and over from farm managers to politicians. They not only pay in an overtly unbalanced way
they add a gravy train of benefits and golden handshakes, no matter the collegues performance
(or crimes for that matter!), and do arrange to give the same job a different title and therefore different pay rate
both up and down the scale depending on gender.
What I am saying is not true of all employers/ businesses, of course!
I am pointing to the cases (which are assumed less than they are without a messenger)
which are perpetuating gender inequities both in the areas of opportunities for advancement
and pay for same work.
I believe this to be still true in the United States more
so in some areas of business than others.
I brought this up in this thread because my true vocation is severely underpaid and undervalued.
Therefore, I appreciate it when someone who makes 5 to 10 times (on average) what I do,
even though I work at least equally as hard as they do in most cases, buys the coffee.
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 11:29:04 AM | Well John McCain's staff has women earning more.
Its documented that female engineers make 120% of what their male counterparts earn.
But men don't use that as an excuse to get women to pay. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 2:45:27 PM |
Even women with post secondary educations (I notice most with them assume we ALL have them) are paid, by an overwhelming majority, significantly less than men doing the same work.
Any woman with an education earning less money than a man without an education does so because of poor salary negotiating skills when accepting job offers. This is a proven fact. If anything, women ought to be earning more money than men; something like 60% of college graduates are female.
Bikeman, I have seen the very same thing brought up in a similar "Dutch" thread, said by a woman no doubt ( How she did negotiate well & got a good starting salery ) I think a lot of women don't know/understand negotiating skills for job offers.
While I do think they tend to get paid slightly lower, there are many other reasons why they get lower pay. Starting out as a trainee or apprintice, They tend to stay away from more physical jobs like construction, welder ect. that pay well.
Plus not every couple that dates don't always have exactly the same job, so the "Less pay for the same job" does not always apply.
A women CEO is still making significantly more then a man welder.
Besides, I tend to think it is more of an excuse then a reason. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 3:24:27 PM | I pay for dinner unless she infers otherwise. It's what I was raised on, it's what I believe, and no one is going to convince me otherwise. If others wish to go dutch at the beginning, that's OKAY, I'm not one to judge just like you aren't one to judge me. Women, you have to get used to the fact that some guys are not going to back down on this topic, and one of you has to make the first step. Eqaulity is what you make of it, I don't think it's so fical that I wouldn't spend an extra 20-30 dollars, but hey, whatever. Please drop threads like these as they're making me and a lot of other people sick, probably 95% of the people arguing here aren't within driving distance to see each other anyway, so chances are you won't have to worry about it.
And ignore people like john.duke and the like, whether they believe what they're saying doesn't matter, they're just doing it to get a roger from seeing women (and some men) foam at their mouth's in anger. Don't feed the trolls please. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 7/6/2008 3:29:49 PM | | is there really a need for a rule? everyone seems to have their own rules anyway. I think dutch or not dutch is all fine, everyone has different things that float their boat, but personally I think that if one side or the other thinks they are entitled to anything at all...then its not cool. For example, if a man feels he should be entitled to sex at the end of the date, not cool. If a woman feels she is entitled to have the man pay for the date, not cool. Of course...if the man wants to pay for the date regardless, then enjoy yourselves and likewise if the woman is interested in sex at the end...then hallelujah. There is no perfect rule in my opinion, but attitudes of entitlement are not cool. | |
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