| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 3:25:15 PM | I usually stick with the belief that whoever asks should pay. And since the man usually does the asking, he pays for the date as result. I don't see anything wrong with it. It's a nice gesture, and it shows generosity. However, with the equality that we have, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect splitting the bill. It eliminates any feelings of obligation and/or expectations that could arise.
I use the following compromise between the two ways (the man paying vs. splitting the bill). I always make sure I have enough money on hand to pay for my date, and offer to do that when the check comes. However, if she insists on paying for herself, I let her; it makes me respect her more, because it shows thoughtfulness and responsibility on her part. Of course, if it becomes obvious that my generosity is being taken advantage of, there won't be a second date. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 4:11:32 PM | Frankly, I’m appalled at some of the posts in this thread from women that I am reading.
I'm saying if a man asks me on a date, he can surely afford $20 or less for the pleasure of my company. It's called courtship. If he can't be bothered or expects to invite a woman on a date and split the bill, he's not the type of man I'd be interested in. It's not about cash, it's about a man deciding I'm worth his time, attention and investing the few bucks it might cost to date me.
As for ME treating him-- sure. When he's proven himself worthy, I'll happily cook him a 3-course meal.
Sabinee, are you saying here that you expect a man to fork out for you on a first date not knowing you or your worth yet refuse to return the compliment until he has ‘proven himself worthy’? Sounds like double standards to me.
And Kyn in reply to:
Dont confuse anger with my tendency to call BS or tolerate ridiculous arguments citing equality for another "reason" re. laziness when it comes to decent male behavior & their capability of behaving like gentleman by whining about paying for a coffee or even dinner if its the case.
Sweeping gender-biased generalizations using abrasive language certainly does infer anger. And the only ‘whining’, to use your word, which I read in this thread, is coming from female posters. Not many men would have an issue with shouting a coffee if that were the case under review but the OP’s post was referring to first-meetings that included a meal and they are completely different situations. For heaven’s sakes there is a need to take some responsibility for oneself when entering into a relationship (and I’m using relationship in its broad general term) whether it be for the one meeting or for a lifetime.
‘Decent male behaviour’ you say, no I don’t think so. It’s decent human behaviour where consideration is given to the other and not where expectation for one to foot the bill exists because of their gender.
And as to:
You live in the exact same Melbourne as I do.
I don’t think so. I don’t move in the same circles as you and I’m extremely glad that’s the case. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 4:51:00 PM |
I don't want to be liberated...damn it.
Sorry I burned my bra back when I was 13, I can always buy another.
Ask me out and I expect you to pay...pretty simple.
If I ask you out...I'll pay. (should I mention that I am 48 and
I have never asked a man out)
This likely explains why there are so many smart and attractive, SINGLE women in POF in 2008 !
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 5:01:25 PM | | Well as old as I am, I'm not a traditionalist. I was seeing someone that had to drive 2 hours to take me out. Given the fact that he was willing to do that, and the price of gas, I insisted on paying for the dinners most of the time. He paid the tip. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 5:42:36 PM |
Sabinee:
it's about a man deciding I'm worth his time, attention and investing the few bucks it might cost to date me.
This is indeed where the issue lies right within your words... it's about a man deciding? 'Man deciding' is the old world concept that has died and now we are in a new one world. The men do not decide anything anymore, we as people decide together. . My mistake. I meant REALIZING I'm worth his time, attention and investing the few bucks it might cost to date me, rather than DECIDING.
What can I say? I'm an old world type of woman. I feel no need to change
Sabinee, are you saying here that you expect a man to fork out for you on a first date not knowing you or your worth yet refuse to return the compliment until he has ‘proven himself worthy’? Sounds like double standards to me.
Yep. I expect a man to do exactly that. If he's worried about "forking out" $20 or less, he can keep looking. You call it a double standard, I call it old-fashioned courtship.
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 6:07:39 PM | Yep. I expect a man to do exactly that. If he's worried about "forking out" $20 or less, he can keep looking. You call it a double standard, I call it old-fashioned courtship.
Many men are willing to pay the entire bill on the first date. The problem that many men have is when a woman EXPECTS a man to pay the entire the bill. That is 2 different things. A man might think that you are cheap or have a sense of entitlement if you don't offer the pay half the bill. In your example, half the bill is only $10. | |
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jf468
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 57 | |
| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 6:20:24 PM | | It is pretty sad when some people think how the bill is paid is actually more than the actual date itself. Personally I would NEVER assume the man is paying the entire bill on the first date. I would always offer to pay half the bill regardless of who asks whom or how well the date went. If he accepts, then I don't think anything less of him because of that. An offer should be genuine, not a "test of a man's character". | |
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~Kyn~
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Joined: 2/15/2008
Msg: 58 | |
| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 8:56:37 PM |
Frankly, I’m appalled at some of the posts in this thread from women that I am reading
And Im frankly appalled that you condone the equality argument to take away the rights of women to still be women...and men to still be men. Pay & the Right to Vote has nothing to do with it.
Sweeping gender-biased generalizations using abrasive language certainly does infer anger
I explained my stance...I dont much care if like my tone or you second guessing it after you've already been told...and I dont believe for one moment they were generalizations. Infact, if you go back to read my post, I offered that there was a minority and they werent included. And a minority it is.
Sabinee, are you saying here that you expect a man to fork out for you on a first date not knowing you or your worth yet refuse to return the compliment until he has ‘proven himself worthy’? Sounds like double standards to me.
Yep. I expect a man to do exactly that. If he's worried about "forking out" $20 or less, he can keep looking. You call it a double standard, I call it old-fashioned courtship
^^^ Sabinee...glad you responded cos thats my exact same thought.
IF a man is spending ridiculous amounts on courting women...then he should be a little more discerning about who he asks out instead of playing multiple odds to find a woman.
If its ONE women...let him step up to bat and do it.
there is a need to take some responsibility for oneself when entering into a relationship (and I’m using relationship in its broad general term) whether it be for the one meeting or for a lifetime
No shit? Which is why you only accept genuine offers of interest with somebody who's actually interested enough in you to pay for a coffee, instead of putting yourself in a line of "maybes".
I don’t move in the same circles as you and I’m extremely glad that’s the case
Clearly you dont. Or you wouldnt date men too stingy, too poor or too lacking of manners to buy you a cup of coffee.
So here's a heads up (from one side of the Yarra to another *thank God for that division*)...IF a man asked you out & like the gentlemen he is... he picks up the tab...
...be assured enough in your femininity to be graceful enough to accept it. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 9:06:43 PM | I am ashamed that the ones of my own sex seem to be out for free coffee or a free meal if they make it so far. Invariably my date picks up for the first coffee but I always pick up for the second coffee...if we are still on speaking terms. At dinner, I always insist on picking up the drinks part of the bill and always make sure the waiter brings two bills, one for the dinner and one for the drinks. Were all well paid, girls, sometimes more than the men we meet.
We should not expect a man to bankrupt himself just for the pleasure of our company.
EXCELLENT POST! Wish more women thought like you.......and nowadays it isn't at all uncommon for women to make more than the men they are dating. In fact, most women I have dated have made more money than me. I have been dating someone that I really like, but I am going broke having to always pay for everything. On one date when we had her daughter and my son, she expected me to even pay for her daughters food as well as hers.....geez. She even makes a couple thousand a year more than I do, but she always seems to be "br0ke" for some reason. I think it is only fair to take turns if you are dating someone on a regular basis. At this rate, we won't be going out much longer. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 9:14:14 PM | meeting someone off here isn't really a date, so there's really no reason to expect someone to pay unless you have already discussed that.......
and a first date....i mean i see no problem in assuming dutch its better than assuming you'd pay...a penis doesn't make someone responsible for the bill. that said...i do enjoy some good ol' traditional men now and then....
but yah i don't see a problem | |
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~Kyn~
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Joined: 2/15/2008
Msg: 61 | |
| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 9:24:15 PM | Incidentally I agree with ktodd at post #59 too.
Im speaking specifically of the initial courting meet and phase to a relationship (whether that be coffee OR a dinner).
I have been dating someone that I really like, but I am going broke having to always pay for everything.
Maybe you could talk to her about it? Although I would think that if she knows you well enough, she'd care enough to understand your financial situation and you not really have to.
There's always the consideration though...that she may earn more...but she may have financial commitments that impact her disposable income. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 9:44:13 PM | I hope I'm not the only one that finds it amusing that some expect men to pay for the pleasure of their company. Why can't we get that kind of treatment? I want someone to feel I'm worth paying to have around too damnit!
Doesn't everyone have just as much to 'prove' as the other? I didn't know it was just men proving stuff to women and part of it was paying for them to hang around... | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 9:53:58 PM | | You make me sick to my stomach! We have a FREE ride? I'm sorry I'm not the one who goes out,makes the bad choices,gets knocked up and so-called has to do it ALL. I live alone so I take care of my home,cook for myself,clean my home,do it's repairs and everything else...I don't NEED a woman to do that for me,however nice to have. So you think it's cool for us both to make similar wages and ME to pay for taking YOU out? Would that be ALL the time? If so,well now wonder why some ladies think men treat them like meat or objects! | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 9:54:02 PM |
When did dating turn into going dutch for everything?
It didn't, at least for classy women and gents. I pay for the dates, and if I hear any static, then I won't ask that particular woman out again. Most women who are confident in themselves have no problem with the man handling the date, and both mature men and women know that paying for a date doesn't mean that you're owed sex (that's always the bone of contention on this issue). Insisting on "Dutch" implies either some political mindset, or a lack of trust of the woman toward the man.
Life's too short for that. Find someone who is compatible with your dating values. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 9:57:28 PM | Isn't it common sense to think that you should be PREPARED to pay your own way? I always offer to pay my share--I have seldom been taken up on it, and I'm more than happy to be paid for...but expecting it? What are we--dependents? I don't go anywhere on a first date that I can't afford to pay my part of the bill for. Why? Because I have a job too?
Let's say a man has one date a week--over the course of a month, saying he takes four women out for dinner--or one woman out to dinner four times, or two out twice....you get it... that's EASILY $200 (possibly more), not including gas (maybe he's come in from out of town?) and other extras (flowers, whatever). While it's great to be treated, the idea that one should EXPECT it just because she's female is a bit... petty? I think long and hard before I spend $200 on anything--I damn sure wouldn't want the added financial responsibilities that men have in dating. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 10:00:39 PM | I would have to wonder if you know what chivalry means and where the word was derived? Before you go ape on me....I usually do offer,however I've gotten smart about it too.I just think your expectations and coupling of chivilry and money are humorous.I could treat you with respect(open car doors,pull chairs,walk on the proper side of the street ....etc.) that COSTS nothing! I don't mind paying for a cup of coffee or a date in most cases.The internet isn't like the "old world"....You can talk to someone for a month,ask them to meet and then not be able to stand them.
Nobody is saying anything about effort and behaving like a gentleman isn't about dollars it's about respect! We sure wouldn't mind a little respect either! | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 10:05:40 PM | I just assume the first date (Or meet as someone else siad, it really is a meet) is dutch and offer to pay. If they want to pay, I dont mind, but I never assume they will pay for the date. Eventually, if things work out and we became serious I wouldnt expect them to pay every time we got together, relationships are give and take.
I agree with Penny-stx.
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 10:43:12 PM |
Clearly you dont. Or you wouldnt date men too stingy, too poor or too lacking of manners to buy you a cup of coffee.
So here's a heads up (from one side of the Yarra to another *thank God for that division*)...IF a man asked you out & like the gentlemen he is... he picks up the tab...
...be assured enough in your femininity to be graceful enough to accept it.
Tut, tut. You are going off 'half-cocked' aren't you? Your argument leaks profusely, to make pretence that you know me, and the company I keep.
Which is why you only accept genuine offers of interest with somebody who's actually interested enough in you to pay for a coffee, instead of putting yourself in a line of "maybes".
See my previous posts re: OP's contention being with regards to a meal.
And Im frankly appalled that you condone the equality argument to take away the rights of women to still be women...and men to still be men. Pay & the Right to Vote has nothing to do with it.
And where in my previous posts do I mention 'equality' or 'Pay & the Right to Vote'?
Your verbatim is becoming tedious so please don't bother me any more with it. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 11:52:46 PM | >>when did dating become a strictly Dutch thing? What happened to bringing a woman >>flowers and showing her a good time without expecting her to pay her own way or half???
Some time in the 1960's? Come on this is 2008. I can understand if you don't have much money but wow, is it really that big of a problem to buy your own food and drinks? I can't believe women get worked up about this, as if it is a privelege just to be around them. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 12:11:31 AM | | Good luck with that flower thing... I would not show up to a 1st meet / date with a flower. I would need to know I was really interested in her before that... (By that time I would probably have enough info to show up with something a little more personal that showed I had been paying attention the previous times we spent together...) | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 12:15:24 AM | I don't have time to read the whole thread right now so maybe this has already been said but I think clarifying things very frankly upfront is the best way to handle things. Come right out and ask what the plans are, or lead the way and make them yourself before going anywhere. If it's only a coffee/drink meet for the first time, then I would offer to pay if he didn't act as if he was going to handle it or reach for the check --
In the past, I've had to get a babysitter. When a woman has to pay for the babysitter upfront, there is a four hour minimum that must be met with the sitter before stepping out of the house. For this reason, I don't go out too often for the coffee/drink brief meet as it's just not worth the cost or the hassle unless I'm going to be out for most of the evening. On occasion though, I did offer to meet someone briefly when I was going to be out and about during the day and already had daycare for a little while.
Normally, if I'm already picking up the tab for the babysitter, I really don't feel the least bit of obligation to pay for the date as well. And I've never (to my recollection) had a date not pay -- and furthermore, most of my dates insisted on paying for my sitter at the end of the night as well. Guess I'm just lucky like that.
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~Kyn~
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Joined: 2/15/2008
Msg: 73 | |
| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 1:18:21 AM |
Tut, tut. You are going off 'half-cocked' aren't you? Your argument leaks profusely, to make pretence that you know me, and the company I keep
Actually its pretenSe. You're in Melbourne not the Old Country...so clearly I dont half-cock anythin...do I?
Incidentally ...lets try not to be obtuse shall you?...*oh sorry*...typo.
Im more than comfortable with my own femininity and being able to accept & acknowledge the characteristics of a male & his intentions (and letting him occasionally lead) without considering it offensive, unliberating, politically incorrect to argue against it, attempting to score points for the "other" team, even maybe for just the downright "sake of it"...than find it invasive, competitive or am just too damn lazy to teach him to do it or my sons/nephews/brothers/grandchildren etc. any other way.
Hey...the shortcomings of the apparently modern female *isnt proud*
See my previous posts re: OP's contention being with regards to a meal
So you think you're worth a coffee/meal...but not the other way around then?
And where in my previous posts do I mention 'equality' or 'Pay & the Right to Vote'?
Since you countered me directly and it was in my OP....either you didnt read it correctly (those comprehension skills will get you every time) or you're finding it difficult to let a man be a man...and you just be a woman. That would seem a shortcoming on your part, not mine.
Your verbatim is becoming tedious so please don't bother me any more with it
Simple solution...STFU. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 1:48:06 AM |
Actually its pretenSe. You're in Melbourne not the Old Country...so clearly I dont half-cock anythin...do I?
pretence
noun
British spelling of pretense.
Oxford Dictionary
Since you countered me directly and it was in my OP.
Actually I quoted PARTS of your post/s to which I put forward a difference of opinion. | |
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~Kyn~
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Joined: 2/15/2008
Msg: 75 | |
| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 2:08:33 AM |
pretence
noun
British spelling of pretense.
Oxford Dictionary
Actually its pretenSe. You're in Melbourne not the Old Country...so clearly I dont half-cock anythin...do I?
Well D'uh...thats what I said.
Dumbass
Dumb + Ass
dumb-ass
Idiot. Moron. Room temperature IQ. Tard.
Simple solution...STFU | |
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