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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 2:34:10 AM | I don't know what world all the pro-dutch women are living in, but in Australia women still only make app. 70% of what men do. Whoever does the inviting should pay the bill, be that the man or the woman. And if I'm not even worth the cost of a cup of coffee upon invitation for first meet, then don't worry all you "no second date" guys, you won't see me for dust. Like Kyn said "so shoot me".
If a meet turns into a real relationship, then and only then should the breakdown of fiscal responsibilites conversation happen. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 2:37:59 AM | I'd promised myself I wouldn't post in any more of these "who pays?" threads. *sigh* Oh well, one more time...
I earn money, he earns money... we both want to meet each other. Why in the world would I not be willing to share in the expense of that? To me, it is just that... an issue of fairness and being well-mannered. Perhaps, even, of respect for both of us. If he has a different idea, I'll respect that too.
I do not have to "prove" myself his equal. pfft, those are silly games for the insecure.
He does not need to "prove" he is a "real man." The measure of a man is something other than his wallet.
I do not have an agenda. Well, none other than the discovery of another person.
For the life of me, I simply can't get my head around EXPECTING someone to pay. When you expect it, it is no longer a GIFT or a TREAT one is giving to the other ... it is simply fulfilling OBLIGATIONS. Seems more like a transaction than relating.
The other things that make me scratch my head...
* the man either pays the FULL bill, or if we are being fair, he pays HALF.
* how did so many people get their identity confused with the price of a cup of coffee? | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 3:14:25 AM | I would always pay the bill for a date, however I have experienced some ladies who get very upset when I try.
Its not that I think I am buying them or their affections, Its simply that I have old fashioned values and think a guy should pay, it should be his treat, I would also hold the door open for you, but I have experienced problems with this too.
We all have to realise everyone of us is different and we are all a product of our enviroment.
In my experience of my female friends they do always go for the rough and ready guys, then wonder what went wrong. The nice guys don't get a chance, but their the one's who would treat you with respect and like a lady.
Good luck in the future, I hope you find the love you are seeking  | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 4:26:41 AM | | I realize that some people must closely watch their budget and these factors are a concern. If I were going on a cruise, trip, or some other expensive outing I would expect to pay my half. But if a trip to starbucks for coffee, or dinner and a movie are a big financial burden for a guy we are probably not compatible. That being said......If I invite...I pay but if the guy never invites me out because he is too cheap to pay for dinner, he is not the right guy for me. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 5:22:37 AM | I have no problem with sharing the tab for a night out, anyone with common sense has a budget they need to stick to. But that being said I find it sad that a couple of gals are DEMANDING to be catered to or guys that are PISSED when a lady expects to be treated like an actual date.
Although I am happy to treat someone to dinner, theatre tickets etc. I do expect a man that is courting me to pay the bill initially, not that I am not going to offer to share. It is a very nice way to let a woman know you are interested, there are many men out there that would be happy to take the same girl out. How on earth do you expect to win a gals heart if you won't spring for a cup of coffee?
It does not have to be a five star restaurant, but a walk on the beach and an ice cream afterwards or a bottle of wine watching a free concert in the park. It's all about romance. A girl likes to feel special and when she does she is usually very happy to pack the picnic or buy a movie ticket. It's about respect, appreciating a kind gesture and treating people well. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 5:30:46 AM | Why would anyone ask someone out, when they didnt want or couldnt pay for the evening? I agree with the poster who said the "if I offer a friend a ride, I dont ask them to pay for half the gas" Its like you want the woman to like you, so you take her to a nice restaurant, that you cannot afford or will resent paying for? No? Yes? If it is a money thing, do something inexpensive, or even free. I cant eat half of what they serve in a meal anyway. Im sorry, I am suposed to respect someone who gripes over paying for a drink for me? Or a $5.00 movie ticket? I look at relationships like this, initially we will go out a few times, but most of the time, the dates will most likely be at my house, eating in with a movie. With me doing the shopping, cooking, cleaning up. I know there will be some guys who say they help with that, but I have never, never, had a man help prepare then clean up after a meal. Or even bring the food to cook.
Some argue about spending the money on women and the date turns out badly, or you feel used, and if you dont get sex thats a whole other argument. Get to know that woman a bit better before you bite the bullet of dating. Talk on the phone more than once, quit trying to rush the meeting. I come across a lot of guys who want to go out after only a couple of emails. Willing to drive for 2 hours. Really pushing to meet too soon, Then he's going to complain about paying for it? I do always offer. Not dutch though, I say"let me take care of this" "I'd like to pay for this" and "really, let me get this". When I actually put the cash on the table, that is code for, I dont want to "owe" you anything, and there will not be another date. | |
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Avelia
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Joined: 2/18/2008
Msg: 84 | |
| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 5:31:52 AM | I feel more comfortable paying for myself even in when I was in a serious relationship unless it was for special occassions...that way I feel like I'm not taking advantage of the guy and we're just getting together to enjoy each other's company.
For first dates or just casual dates it's trickier. I've spoke with a male co-worker about this and he said that he will pick up the tab on the first date and whenever he 'asks her out' but he feels that he would expect the female to at least offer to go dutch. I agree with him, I don't feel right putting pressure on the guy...although some guys do get offended when I pull out my wallet when the bill comes =X So I would offer to pay my share everytime (unless you've agreed on something else before) but if the guy insists, I would put my wallet away and kindly thank him for the meal/drink/movie. But that's just how my brain works =P That way I can order whatever I want without feeling too cautious of what is or isn't appropriate.
~ Avelia | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 5:44:07 AM | Let me tell you about my last first date!
We agreed to go out to diner and she insisted on picking the place and ringing to make the booking. Normally I would pay because thats me and I like to do that, we had a nice diner and asked for the bill. It was one of those places you take the bill up to the desk and pay on the way out. On the way up to the desk my date walked straight out the front door and waited for me outside. She did not even offer to pay or even wait with me while I paid the bill! | |
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medana
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Joined: 12/8/2005
Msg: 86 | |
| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 5:49:58 AM | hooray to the young and brave.
and yeah, i understand. happens to me too. so i dont date much, not sure am looking for love in the first place, so i try to set lunch dates only when i have to go out have lunch anyways. that way i give him a chance and i lose nothing
LOL
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 6:08:14 AM | Whatever happened to good old fashioned dating where the guy pays , luckily i am a cheap date to take out for a drink but nevertheless at the end of the day the guy is having a nce lady on their arm and good company for the evening.
If you guys want to go Dutch you should say in the begining, but ohhhhhh nooooo you won't do that will you because you know you wouldn't get the date!
Not all Ladies can afford to go out buying drinks and meals so have some consideration!, doesn't mean to say they are a gold digger just because they don't offer to pay half the bill, it is all down to old fashioned values and the guy being a Gentleman. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 6:39:26 AM | I had to laugh a page back or two, when someone made the comment that if you expected a guy to spend twenty bucks on you, you were basically an entitlement princess. This poster must have a severe lack of self esteem to figure she aint worth 20 bucks.
Let me clarify guy speak for you ladies...When a man asks you out, he is basically saying, i am interested in sampling your goodies. When you go on the initial coffee meet and greet,he is saying, i want to meet you and see if i would like to sample your goodies.
i use to date morons who expected me to pay for my own meals, guess what, they also expected to sample the goodies. Dreamy then got smart. I realized i wasnt the local welfare office,and i wasnt giving any free rides. i realized it was my own fault for dating these types of men. So....I raised the bar higher. Now i dont date men that expect me to pay my own way. they still want to sample the goodies, but, at least i am getting a good meal for my efforts. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 8:48:15 AM |
Not all Ladies can afford to go out buying drinks and meals so have some consideration!
First dates should be relatively cheap so that money isn't an issue. I'm sure that most people can afford to pay for a few drinks or some appetizers.
doesn't mean to say they are a gold digger just because they don't offer to pay half the bill, it is all down to old fashioned values and the guy being a Gentleman.
Old fashioned values when it comes to dating was based on when women usually didn't work or didn't make much money if they had a job. Today that type of thinking is outdated. there are plenty of women with decent paying jobs. Money has nothing to do with being a gentleman. The actual date itself should be much more important than who pays the bill. The man could be a complete jerk during the date, but if he pays the entire the bill. Does that suddenly make him a gentleman? No.
Many men are willing to pay the entire bill on the first date. The problem that many men have is when a woman EXPECTS a man to pay the entire the bill. That is 2 different things.
Exactly. At least some women here understand the point. Unfortunately, some women equate money with respect and manners. Dating is a 2 way street. It shouldn't be just about a man trying to impress a woman. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 9:04:21 AM | This topic has been done to death and has two different answers depending on whether you're asking someone out ONLINE or OFFLINE:
(1) OFFLINE - The traditional way: Typical set up, guy sees girl, walks up to her, chats her up, asks her out, and PAYS when they go out. Conversely if the woman saw the guy, approached HIM, and asked HIM out, she'd be expected to pay, though let's face it guys, their age-old double standard will probably STILL have you paying... 
Net Result - Asker pays, though if the asker is female, still a 50/50 shot as to whether she'll ever have to reach into her purse (yay for breasts!  )
(2) ONLINE - This is the confused one: Theoretically you see a profile that catches your attention, so you write to them. If they're at all remotely interested in you, they'll write back. Now I feel the issue is entirely dependent on how LONG you two take getting to know each other online before you finally meet OFFLINE. If you're the type of person that chats for months before meeting, well then by that point you're both MUTUALLY interested, and are like a pair of friends, so who's to say who should pay by that point when you finally do meet? 
However if you're like me that prefers a quick e-mail and a quick meet to see if you're attracted, then I say that's a lot closer to traditional dating, hence the asker should expect to pay (unless you're female and self-entitled, like I warned against before  )
Net Result - Iffy, asker pays if you can even remember that far back who the asker was... And once again, if you're a woman, it's still a 50/50 shot as to whether you'll even be ASKED to chip in (I reiterate my Hooray for Boobs quip earlier)  | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 9:50:02 AM | [Let me clarify guy speak for you ladies...When a man asks you out, he is basically saying, i am interested in sampling your goodies. When you go on the initial coffee meet and greet,he is saying, i want to meet you and see if i would like to sample your goodies.This is a confused and simplistic way for a woman to think. She thinks all guys are seeking them for sex? Wow that's a bit self-congratulatory and assumptive, don't you think? And they never dated a guy with first-date goody-sampling thoughts? NEVER, she's a lady. 
This topic gets debated to death in these forums. Yet it has been spun a little bit differently. I find it hard to believe it is possible to not think about this Dutch situation when setting up a first meeting/date. I don't know about y'all, but if I leave the house, I leave with money?? I've got a plan to get home if the date turns south? I'm not looking for nor expecting handouts, largesse, entitlements, gifts, etc.?
It is the inviter's responsibility to pay unless otherwise determined. It can be confusing if I invite her to meet me, she says yes and then specifies the venue and the events. Here one is the inviter only and the other one is the planner. My guess here is that is some sort of implicit understanding that the date is Dutch? Don't be too sure about this, though.
Generally I like to keep the first meeting short, simple, and uncomplicated. Internet dating is like a box of chocolates. If I suggest something simple, and the lady suggests something more elaborate, I will broach the topic of who is paying for what BEFORE the date. It is litmus test of sorts to see if the lady is looking at first dates as free entertainment or an opportunity to meet a potential romantic interest.
These are the first dates. 1960s feminism has really made many people confused. Some women want to eat their cake and have it too. Guys lost sense of what it takes to be a host. That's too bad for the clueless. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 10:03:35 AM | ok,i'm a "geezer" by relative standards, but i can't even imagine a woman paying on the first date-back in my day(yeah,which one "day"was that?har-har)the man was a man,and picked up the tab because it was the manly thing to do;yes i've been preyed upon by freeloaders and mooches,but better that than ambushing a first date with an unexpected expense.
i'm beginning to notice a disturbing trend here-members of both gender who don't like the opposite sex-they seem to nurture bitterness baggage from prior relationships which they won't let go of-so they take their revenge on the opposite sex by preying on their next association and taking their best cheap shot...whoever these cheapskates are who won't pay for a date's coffee or meal-ladies,perhaps it's better that you have to deal with a little financial embarrassment up front than to have to put up with some lousy schmuck any longer. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 10:06:16 AM | ok,i'm a "geezer" by relative standards, but i can't even imagine a woman paying on the first date-back in my day(yeah,which one "day"was that?har-har)the man was a man,and picked up the tab because it was the manly thing to do;yes i've been preyed upon by freeloaders and mooches,but better that than ambushing a first date with an unexpected expense.
i'm beginning to notice a disturbing trend here-members of both genders who don't like the opposite sex-they seem to nurture bitterness baggage from prior relationships which they won't let go of-so they take their revenge on the opposite sex by preying on their next association and taking their best cheap shot...whoever these cheapskates are who won't pay for a date's coffee or meal-ladies,perhaps it's better that you have to deal with a little financial embarrassment up front than to have to put up with some lousy schmuck any longer. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 10:24:20 AM |
This is a confused and simplistic way for a woman to think. She thinks all guys are seeking them for sex? Wow that's a bit self-congratulatory and assumptive, don't you think? And they never dated a guy with first-date goody-sampling thoughts? NEVER, she's a lady.
Whether i am a lady or not is not the topic here. Lets just agree i am more of a lady than you are.
i dont think my thinking is confused at all. i have never seen a man ask a woman out that he wasnt attracted to. you can bet your bottom dollar, he will expect sex at some point. call it self congratulatory. i call it as i see it.
Any man that expects a woman to go dutch is just plain cheap. Especially if he wants to sample the goodies. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 10:24:37 AM | Re the OPost
"...So my question once again is this ......when did dating become a strictly Dutch thing? What happened to bringing a woman flowers and showing her a good time without expecting her to pay her own way or half???...."
I cannot put an exact date (year) on it, but it is some time now, since women massively entered the job market, and equality of the genders became the (fair/just) rule. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 10:35:33 AM | Hi Dreamcatcher, I didn't say you were or were not a lady. Just posing a hypothetical question of whether you ever had thought of goodie sampling on a first date.
I think that thoughts of a sexual nature are natural thought processes, nothing abnormal. Now whether somebody acts on these thoughts, and expresses expectations of their date "putting out", that's a different issue altogether.
It is assumptive to believe every man who asks you out wants inside your panties. It might be true of many or most guys, but not all guys, and maybe you could be more carefully considering who you selecting to date? I've been on many first dates with a few women where I thought there was initial attraction, but that thought turned south on me during the date. Honestly, I can't recall a first date where I expected to have sex at the end of the date. It's too bad that you have selected to go on dates with men and all of them were of this "first date sex" mentality.
Being a lady has nothing to do with the expectation of first date largesse. It does have everything to do with the honest display of feminine feelings. If a woman can have a healthy dating life by NEVER inviting guys for first dates, or manipulate every possible romantic opportunity into the guy inviting her out, that's great I suppose; good for her. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 10:44:37 AM | | If I ask a woman out for dinner and it is my idea in the beginning I would expect to pay for the dinner. But I agree there should be some discussion about how the dinner will get paid for beforehand. A nice thank you if the man pays the whole bill would be nice. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 11:30:32 AM | If I ever decide to meet anyone on POF in the future, I'll put out the option of meeting on a Mall bench if it is cold or park bench if it is warm....that should do it........ 
Of course, I reserve the right to go out with the man I like who insists on dinner...... by then, I'll know the type of person he is and if it is ok to accept................( dont want to be left with a bill I cannot pay if I accept his invitation...........and dont want him b*tching about it after, either..........he, he, he) | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/25/2008 11:49:06 AM | Who cares who pays for a cheap coffee date? I really dont see the point in haggling over 20 bucks. If you cant afford to go meet someone, then dont. Give me the damn check.
It doesnt really get financially interesting until there is some level of commitment involved, imo. Until then, hush. | |
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