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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 7:26:30 AM | I don't get the whole marrage thing personally. What is so attractive about it, its basically a piece of paper. Now for really religous people I can see it, there church tells them its what to do. And I suppose I can see it back when women stayed home took care of the house and children, then it was a legal contract so if it ended she got something for the work she did. But lets face it now days it means nothing.
Yes I have been through a divorce, yes she got angry and tried to take me for everything. It cost me some extra money but in the end it ended up fair. She was a housewife, and so she deserved half of what we had. Actually I offered her more then half, she got angry wanted to hurt me and in the end got less then she would have gotten not getting ugly. But thats not the point.
The marrage is the point, and that piece of paper meant nothing. She was insecure it didn't make her feel more secure, it didn't add to our love, it didn't make our friends feel any different about us, people didin't see us any differentily. It did help during tax time I guess, and I don't know if I would have gotten the loan on the house if I wasn't married. Alot of talk about commitment on here. That piece of paper didn't make us more commited to each other, I was just as commited to the relationship before we got married.
So my question is why do people even bother with the "M' word nowdays? If it all about love, why isn't a native American wedding legal? The most beautiful marrage I ever saw was two of my friends having a Native American wedding where a tribal elder married them. It was beautiful, it was spiritual, and it was all about love. But it wasn't legal!!!!! | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 8:53:15 AM | Oh, Goodness, what a heated debate! People who want marriage accuse those who don't of immaturity and other sins. People who don't want marriage respond in kind. The atmosphere becomes hotter and hotter by the moment.
I don't get it. What seems to be the problem here? Some people want to get married. Some people don't (I'm one of them). Neither of this attitudes is restricted to one particular sex.
And some people, while not making marriage there life goal, "keep a light on the porch" just in case.
Ladies and Gentlemen: there is no problem! Those who want to marry - find a willing person (they are around!) and marry him or her. Those who don't want to marry - well, you certainly don't have to. Live and let live. Don't try to make everybody into a carbon copy of you.
Peace, please! | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 9:00:40 AM |
So, some men might be afraid of marriage..yet I know plenty (of men) that would jump into it in a heartbeat.....because they are lonely and afraid and incomplete.......would you want a man like that???
There are MANY women and MANY men that do not take marriage lightly. A friend of mine once said, "If I say I do and then I don't, I'll never be able to say I do again without a smerk on my face". He was married 15 years....Divorced for 10.. and has no plan to utter those words again.
That doesn't mean he doesn't "love" the woman he's living with....He just can't say something he doesn't believe. | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 9:11:50 AM | | I don't think not believing in it means you take commitment lightly. I am not a religious person. It's something mainly based around religion. Not being religious, I don't need the 'title' to commit to someone for life. The title wouldn't make me love them any more. | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 10:22:25 AM | southernlass, although i totally disagree with you politically, i totally agree with you on your concept of marriage. i think when people bring different pasts and lives to a "partnership", they can either tap into having more to contribute to the whole picture or they can tap into their differences. too many people are looking for partners to be like them and fit their perfect criteria.
marriage and all forms of partnership take a lot of work. some people have trouble in the romance department, if someone is not doing everything "their way". that is why after the romance period, people get disillusioned or sadly, the person you thought you were with, was just "acting" and s/he is not that person at all. this is why it takes time to get to know someone--no matter what personal reason we all have for hurrying it along.
as to the bitter people, well they lose on the really good things that commitment offers, especially at times when they are down. one minute you can be in the midst of a successful career and think your life will never end and you will always be empowered and comfortable. there's the true test of partners and friends, as to how they will be there for you, while "allowing" you to retain your dignity--because they know that love is vast and complex and deep. sometimes, love is difficult and painful--especially when the one you love is ill or incapacitated or even worse, depressed or a victim or something unforseen.
as to the above argument for not keeping your name, not sure where you live but all the states now no longer have property laws and as long as you maintain one name, you can keep your name. i did it way back when it was not popular and everyone was confused by it. fortunately my state did not have property laws which were created for marriage meaning the owning of the women's property. i remember a woman in texas who had the wealth in her marriage, was not allowed to have sole ownership of her business until these laws changed.
as to women making seventy cents on the dollar, that is an average. many of us make more than our men. plus, at a certain point, if you have a good middle income it does not matter. it varies by state, but here there is a ceiling on child support, which i find very unfair as it gives nothing towards the labor and time spent of the primary caretaker. in this state, after 18, the partner does not HAVE to even educate his/her child and take them to college--in other states, if someone has money that is an expectation.
so a rich ex can send you some pennies and you do all the work and probably if you are able, exceed the ceiling. the state aid for college will not make loans to a child under 24 if their parents have money and even if the child is out on their own struggling--even if one or both parents will not assist the child and neither declares them as a dependent! so where does that leave today's children? as to alimony, there are pre-marital clauses for property owned prior. as to one person working and the other not--i personally have not witnessed ANY situation where the spouse at home was not working his or her butt off taking care of the family and children. and yes, i know male stay at home dads.
so, if the partner is indeed a bimbo, then all i can say is that it was your pick. so many people have one partner doing all the grunge work, often into the evening. i say try to reverse postions and maybe both of you will appreciate both roles. i've never been in this position, as both worked or contributed and both had household responsiblities, but that is because i don't think i could be the houseslave for anyone, nor would i expect them to be that for me. on the other hand, i would not toss the baby or marriage out with the bath water.
so i guess it boils down to your expectations of what you bring to the table, as well as what your partner brings to the table. i think the sad picture is when between you, there is little income and with two households it gets expensive, as well as with children. so, maybe you won't have children. with population growth the way it is, it's not a sad thing for society. but then don't have them and dump them on the street. or not be responsible for sexual activity that can lead to children--even the one night stands that some tend to have nowadays. unfortunately even if you cannot commit, you are responsible for your actions. with true intimacy and partnership, it can be a real comfort to both people. so, if not with a marriage document, at least provide for one another should the fairy tale bubble burst and one of you or even both gets sick or in an accident. nobody should end up that alone and abandoned. that is what "long term" is all about--the good with the bad. | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 11:10:02 AM | I am ambivalent (not indifferent) to marriage. I very much want to share my life with a special someone within a long term relationship. What form that takes, married, living together, committed but separate residences... will be answered in the fullness of time. Depends completely on how both of us feel. I am prepared to just take each day as it comes and, as long as it is working for both of us, life is good.
I would imagine very few of us ever got into a marriage or co-hab that we thought/expected would fail. We all thought we had it figured out... and it failed anyway. So, having licked our wounds, unpacked our baggage, rebuilt our lives and learned the lessons... we have insight and THINK we know what it takes to make a relationship work long term. Until you've actually put it in play it will remain a theory... I'm afraid the only way to test it out is to LIVE IT. HA!
So, inevitably, it will always be a risk, a leap of faith that this person is the one who you truly love and both of you are aware enough to make it work long term.
We can only ever really promise each other right now, because we cannot see what the future entails. That doesn't scare me... the only time you can make a difference in people's lives, or sort a problem out, or do anything including expressing your love is Right Now.
A whole long future of now, now, now. Don't see anything wrong with that. | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 11:31:50 AM | I don't get it. What seems to be the problem here? Some people want to get married. Some people don't (I'm one of them). Neither of this attitudes is restricted to one particular sex.
The problem is: What happens when somebody wants to marry, and can't find somebody of the opposite sex who wants, too?
Easy: Instead of looking at themselves, or at the laws, they choose to try to shame others into marriage. You can see it here: "not real men", "boys", "bitter people", etc.
You can imagine the kind of hell a marriage with one of those would be. | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 11:59:40 AM | akimbo, I love what youve said and I agree.
I am open to either marriage or a long term relationship. Im very open minded. And I feel 'love', is friendship on fire.
It takes the right situation, the right person, and the right chemistry.
I say...bring it on!!! Im ready for one whirlwind of a romance.
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 4:06:03 PM | took care of the house and children, then it was a legal contract so if it ended she got something for the work she did. But lets face it now days it means nothing.
Given the cost of child care in The OC, if my daughter-in-law didn't have a very very good paying job she would not be making enough working to pay for the costs associated with her working. I ran into the same thing when my kids were young. At one point I could management to calculate it at breakeven. With gas prices, it is evenb harder to own 2 cars for both parents to work. So, unless more parents figure out how to reduce travel and childcare, don't be surprised if we end up back at single officianl incomes.
Meanwhile, I do think - as the Catholic church (even though marraige pre-dates religion) puts it well in canon law - that marraige is a contract to "develop a community of life and love for the procreation of children." The contract isn't really for the parents, but for the benefit of the children. That if at all possible they have the benefit of 2 relatively healthy parents raising them and role modeling for them.
For those that want and need contract, I think they should stand by their guns and demand it. My other daughter-in-law did and I supported her. Told my other son she had the right to demand it and he could fish or cut bait. They have a nice clear contract - no assumptions or unstated expectations to bite either of them in the bottom. Worked out the equity for the disparities in income.
As to ZZ.. claim about divorce and proptery, as a Californian he ought to know that our laws are really really clear about max alimony being half the length of marraige - if at all. Child support I agree with. Alimony I don't unless they make specific agreements about either of them negatively impacting their careers for the mutually agreed good of the partnership.
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 4:45:05 PM | Ok I agree with you, about child support, and maybe this wasn't directed at me, but you did quote my post so I have to say I never said nothing about child support. Me and my ex never had children, she had one from before. And to be honest she got hold of me because he needed dental work done, and even though he wasn't my child and I have never seen him since the divorce I went ahead and paid most of it. I figured he had done nothing wrong and yes I still loved him.
But even with that, I don't think you ever have to be married, to get child support. So this is two different subjects!!! By all means if you have children help support them. | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 4:54:24 PM | i also think that a good marriage is a good thing for raising children of both sexes. i believe male and female role models contribute to a better self esteem for children. that being said, bad marriages are not good for children even moreso.
hopefully some of the divorce aftermath victims will have second best--two divorced parents who do not fight and have no major dysfunction. but, quite frankly i see way too many lost young men, who had no father role models at all. to me, this is very sad. although thank G-d, they at least had mothers as opposed to nobody at all.
also, for female children, it helps a lot to have a good male role model, which i think affects future choices in men. again, if it's a bad or dysfunctional marriage, by all means we do what we have to do. still, the whole thing is very sad for kids nowadays.
also with so many whose divorced parents who are attempting to be fair and are share in the responsibilities--the kids are so stressed out, moving back and forth every week between two households and two sets of rules. so, life for kids nowadays is very difficult, when compared to when i was growing up.
they say that the demise of marriage and more and more not wanting kids is a built in population control mechanism. so, i guess that's a good thing and we are just going with the evolutionary flow. it's funny how so many poor and struggling familes will be there for one another. i know many people here who were grown up in third world countries where children are responsbile to care for even their grandparents. many still send money to the elderly and many say they wish to go home to retire, because here there is so much of a breakdown in family units. all i can say to that is that many of us have good friends and non family members to look towards. but again, many are left w/o anything. it freaks me out that many homeless elderly, once professionals and working americans, are totally w/o any care and many americans and canadians report of pof, that they cannot even afford food--again, these people were once up there in life. to me, this is very sad.
so, if not marriage, then at least some thought as to other forms of partnership and coummunity to preserve some sort of societal stucture that is supportive of more than just "me". when you are younger, you assume you are infallible.
ps this is my rationale. i know others have different rationales and i learn from them as well. but the question is why "afraid" of marriage. some are not afraid, but of the ones who are? why? and if they are "afraid" then perhaps they need to know what else there is to fear. if no fear in the first place, the question does not apply. i know both groups of people. there are those who do yearn for long term intimate relationships and the fact is that taxes and inheritances, etc. favor marriage in this country "big time". so, if you are very wealthy, it may not apply. but to the average working class or middle income american, the legal contract can contribute to more financial security for the two of you, with agreements built in beforehand as to how to handle any unforseen breakup. yet i do clearly understand that for some, this is just not even a piece of their puzzle. to everything there is a plus and a minus. | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 4:56:00 PM | | After starting this thread and talking to alot of people and doing research about the origin of married I am beginning to realize that marriage is not the end all beat all solution to happy ever after. I guess I was brain washed into thinking that marriage was special and worth seeking in the right person. That with out marriage the relationship is based on no commitment. Plus my religious up bringing influenced me as well. I read in the research that Abraham and Sarah lived together they were not married. So my whole outlook has changed. I am glad though that I started this thread because it has opened my eyes. | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 5:10:33 PM | | correction. Abraham and Sarah were married but they were siblings as they had the same father. But marriage was considered a tainted institution and only the high level people got married. I guess there are pros and cons but more cons. I guess I am a hopeless romantic and think its one of the greatest things we can achieve in life is to find a life time mate. However hard it may be to find someone compatible and worth making that commitment too. I have been alone for two years and yes there are benifits to that but also there is loneliness if your use to having someone around all the time that you love and loves you. i do not think people are insecure if they want a life time mate. i also do not think we should all just stay alone for ever either. | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 5:13:54 PM | If you were were presented with a legal contract that could lead to your financial ruin, would you take it?
We'd be dumb not to be afraid of it. | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 6:21:13 PM | | After I crashed my bike when I was 21 I said I'd never get another bike, I've got a Harley. When my dog died I was so choked up I said i'd never get another dog, I have 2. When my girlfriend broke up with me I said I was going to try being gay, right, when I got divorced I said i'd never marry HER again, . The point is we can't judge future relationships by the ones in our past. We should know what not to look for now. When I finally get a new girlfriend, lover, companion, (hopefully this will be combined into one person) I think the relationship should progress naturally. I don't intend putting limitations on it. I'm not looking to get married again but i'm looking not to get married either. | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 9:04:14 PM | I want to get married, and because I want to get married I am not interested in perusing a relationship with a woman who does not want marriage. I am quite happy to date women who are opposed to marriage or a woman who is not compatible with me. But it's just a date and nothing more. I will not get serious about anyone unless there is the potential for marriage.
The large majority of people who get married stay married. We are constantly told that half of all marriages end in divorce. That is almost true, slightly less than half of all marriages end in divorce. However that is not the whole story. Many people who get divorced are married and divorced multiple times.
I want to get married, however I will not get married until I am entirely certain that I am with the right woman. | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 10:18:38 PM | imrule62, if you don't get the marriage thing, I'm wondering why you got married when you did?
Why do people bother with it? It is a formal symbol of your commitment. It has certain legal and financial benefits.
Things are changing but you used to not be able to put a live in on your health insurance and if something happened say the person had an accident and was in a coma. If the relatives hated you, they could prevent you from visiting the hospital and even force you out of the house. It's happened to people plenty of times. | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 10:56:36 PM | | well, tralaza,compared to the hazards and the drawbacks a guy(and a guy only)faces in a bad marriage, i'd say your reason are very minor, but that's just me,a guy who's been run thru the state run c.s. meatgrinder.... | |
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| Why are most men afraid of the M word?
Posted: 3/1/2008 11:02:24 PM | | Marriage is a pretty serious committment to make, for any man, and to be honest I think most men below the age of 25 are probably too young to commit to something as serious as marriage. | |
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