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 Author Thread: Why is Hillary losing? [Thread Closed]
 itechman42

Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 351
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/28/2008 11:28:35 AM
Who's the experienced veteran? Hillary? Why? Because we've known for a longer period of time who she is. That's it. Why the Clintons have always rubbed me the wrong way... she knows she has no more experience but also knows that most people will assume she does just because they've known who she was longer. Exploitive psychology.

The fact is that Obama's not labelled himself "The Uniter" because that is a pledge he's yet to have the opportunity to fulfill on the scale of which we are talking about. All he's ever said is that he wants to work with everyone in government instead of government working against itself. Can he? Will he? We don't know. He says he wants to unite, not that he has.

Hillary's campaign to this point provides evidence to her label as "divider". Not so much that she seeks to divide, but the fact is the "Kitchen Sink/Tonya Harding" tactics against Obama offends various people that typically vote Democrat. While Obama's campaign has had to toss a few nuts and bolts from the plumbing back, most of anything divisive his campaign has done is to simply exist.
 RedTory

Joined: 3/3/2008
Msg: 352
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/28/2008 12:02:48 PM

Could somebody explain how Obama is uniting the Democratic party whilst Hillary is dismantling it? He's got an insignificant delegate lead. Unless one of them quits, the party political machine is going to make the decision who their candidate will be. Basically Hillary and Obama say pretty much the same things on most every issue except for Iraq. Yet Hillary is somehow the "disruptor" while Obama is the "uniter"? I don't get it. Obama's answer on what to do with Iraq was laughable--Hillary has the more realistic approach to extricate the US out of that region.


I'm with Bikeman. And I've been waiting for over a year for Obama supporters to provide one accomplishment that qualifies him to be POTUS.
 itechman42

Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 353
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/28/2008 12:05:17 PM
Fair enough. After we hear what distinguishes the other candidates as more qualified.
 RedTory

Joined: 3/3/2008
Msg: 354
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/28/2008 12:10:37 PM
McCain and Hillary are relatively well known. Obama is a liberal George W. Bush. He's all image and no accomplishments. Remember "compassionate conservative"? While the media pounced on everything Al Gore said (or didn't say), the Shrub's handlers got him into the Oral Office without much scrutiny.
 itechman42

Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 355
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/28/2008 12:17:05 PM
So we're back to "we know them" as the primary qualification. While actually Obama has accomplishments, I essentially was asking for what the other candidates themselves have actually accomplished to set them apart.
 southernlass

Joined: 5/2/2006
Msg: 356
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/28/2008 12:54:41 PM
Barack Obama was elected to the United States Senate in 2004. Hillary Rodham Clinton was elected to the United States Senate in 2000. Senator Clinton obviously has twice the experience and time in the senate. She also had a virtual career in government and chalked up accomplishments with women and children's issues, along with an enormous list of foreign policy meetings etc. that she assisted with during her time as First lady. But then this is already known. This has already been cited and discussed again and again. How very tiresome to have to keep going over and over the same territory in a fruitless attempt to sway the Obama followers. Are we having fun yet?
 Bikeman_

Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 357
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/28/2008 1:23:48 PM

Why the Clintons have always rubbed me the wrong way... she knows she has no more experience but also knows that most people will assume she does just because they've known who she was longer.
I'm no big Hillary fan either, I just see her as the lesser of the three evils (Hillary, then McCain, then Obama). I'm not a registered Democrat either, that's the way I rank these candidates from like an "independent" view.

I wouldn't discount Hillary's experience. She clearly has more experience than Obama. Her experience however doesn't match that of McCain, though. The thing that bugs me about McCain is I never thought he would be in this position after the Republican leadership/think-tank threw him under the bus in 2000 and decided to back a clearly inept but quite malleable W as their nominee. I would have thought he would have just told the Republicans to go to hell. He's sort of enigmatic in this respect.
 spitfire6844

Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 358
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/28/2008 1:24:40 PM
Yet Hillary is somehow the "disruptor"


The reason Hillary is considered a disruptor in this current campaign is because she has exhibited a pattern of polarization and disruption since her college undergrad days at Wellesley. She is not "somehow" viewed as a disruptor. Hillary IS a disruptor.

She was considered divisive and provocative at Wellesley College. Her valedictory address there was as polemic and controversial as any a graduating college senior has given in this country. Hillary's tenure as the First Lady of Arkansas created bitter factions in that state which are still present in Arkansas, even though Hillary hasn't lived there for 16 years. Hillary's efforts in attempting to get the 1993 Health Care provisions passed were a colossal failure. She recklessly overreached and overextended herself. The reason her 1993 platform failed has been universally attributed to Hillary's lack of political tact and her alienation of health care professionals, lobbyists, and legislators (even of her own party) alike. Hillary's first campaign for the U.S. Senate seat from New York had all of the negative campaign tactics and unsportsmanlike tenor that we're now seeing in her presidential campaign. As has been revealed most recently, Hillary also has a pattern of equivocation and prevarication on a number of issues throughout the years, and when confronted, she rarely admits error.

Hillary's White House Travel Office (as First Lady) was a disaster. Hillaryland was a disaster. Hillary's current campaign staff has had a high number of shakeups and role-changes, as well as in-fighting amongst the top officials. It's par for the course in any organization which Hillary leads.

Hillary has many good traits and has been a good U. S. Senator. However, she is a divisive, polarizing figure and has been for decades. What we're seeing from her in this election cycle is nothing new. She would make a terrible president in an unstable administration racked by scandals and shake-ups. She wouldn't work well with legislators and she would alienate foreign heads-of-state. Both McCain and Obama, based on their past behavior, would very likely have more success in forming coalitions to get constructive things done in the White House. With Hillary, there would be one logjam or deadlock after another.
 mj999

Joined: 10/28/2007
Msg: 359
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/28/2008 1:34:07 PM
She has been reiterating that she is uniquely qualified to become Commander-in Chief because of her foreign policy experience, however, much of it is now being disputed.

As someone put it "There is no crisis to be dealt with or managed when you are first lady".
 Bikeman_

Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 360
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/28/2008 1:36:24 PM
Eh, I see Hillary more as polarizing than disrupting, but I go along with the premise that lots of apples have fallen from the trees she shook during her career. There certainly is a wake behind her boat, that's for sure.

I've got nothing against Obama actually, and he talks out of both sides of his mouth, just like any good politician. He's just really got lots of people fooled into thinking he's somehow playing outside the box and the system, when he's actually proven to be the best system manipulator of the three, he's used the system to his advantage every step up in his career. How else could he have gotten so far so fast?
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 361
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/28/2008 1:57:50 PM
Any one read Mother Jones's article on Hillary and "The Fellowship" ?


When Clinton first came to Washington in 1993, one of her first steps was to join a Bible study group. For the next eight years, she regularly met with a Christian "cell" whose members included Susan Baker, wife of Bush consigliere James Baker; Joanne Kemp, wife of conservative icon Jack Kemp; Eileen Bakke, wife of Dennis Bakke, a leader in the anti-union Christian management movement; and Grace Nelson, the wife of Senator Bill Nelson, a conservative Florida Democrat.

Clinton's prayer group was part of the Fellowship (or "the Family"), a network of sex-segregated cells of political, business, and military leaders dedicated to "spiritual war" on behalf of Christ, many of them recruited at the Fellowship's only public event, the annual National Prayer Breakfast. (Aside from the breakfast, the group has "made a fetish of being invisible," former Republican Senator William Armstrong has said.) The Fellowship believes that the elite win power by the will of God, who uses them for his purposes. Its mission is to help the powerful understand their role in God's plan.

Clinton declined our requests for an interview about her faith, but in Living History, she describes her first encounter with Fellowship leader Doug Coe at a 1993 lunch with her prayer cell at the Cedars, the Fellowship's majestic estate on the Potomac. Coe, she writes, "is a unique presence in Washington: a genuinely loving spiritual mentor and guide to anyone, regardless of party or faith, who wants to deepen his or her relationship with God."

The Fellowship's ideas are essentially a blend of Calvinism and Norman Vincent Peale, the 1960s preacher of positive thinking. It's a cheery faith in the "elect" chosen by a single voter—God—and a devotion to Romans 13:1: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers....The powers that be are ordained of God." Or, as Coe has put it, "we work with power where we can, build new power where we can't."

The Fellowship's long-term goal is "a leadership led by God—leaders of all levels of society who direct projects as they are led by the spirit." According to the Fellowship's archives, the spirit has in the past led its members in Congress to increase U.S. support for the Duvalier regime in Haiti and the Park dictatorship in South Korea. The Fellowship's God-led men have also included General Suharto of Indonesia; Honduran general and death squad organizer Gustavo Alvarez Martinez; a Deutsche Bank official disgraced by financial ties to Hitler; and dictator Siad Barre of Somalia, plus a list of other generals and dictators. Clinton, says Schenck, has become a regular visitor to Coe's Arlington, Virginia, headquarters, a former convent where Coe provides members of Congress with sex-segregated housing and spiritual guidance.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-2.html


Another article on them :
http://thecurrent.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/03/clinton-fellowship.php


You can watch his interview with Andrea Mitchell below. The most telling point for me was when Andrea said "... clearly she is involved in a religious organization that is much more right wing that she (pause) claims to be."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-g-brant/msnbc-opens-the-door-on-
h_b_93556.html


Interesting that none of this is really mainstream knowledge, isn't it ?

Here's some more on that group :


The Family was founded in Seattle in 1935 by Abraham Vereide, a Norwegian immigrant and traveling preacher who had been working with the city's poor, and who feared that "socialist" politicians were about to take over Seattle's municipal government. Prominent members of Seattle's business community recognized his success with those who were "down and out" and asked him to give spiritual direction to their group who were "up and out." He organized Christian prayer breakfasts for politicians and businessmen that included anti-Communism and anti-union discussions. He was subsequently invited to set up similar meetings among political and business leaders in San Francisco and Chicago. By 1942, the organization had moved headquarters to Washington, DC, where it helped create breakfast groups in the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives. In 1944, the organization's name was changed to International Christian Leadership, then in 1972, to The Fellowship Foundation. It was at this time that the group's leaders decided to lower the Fellowship's public profile by decentralizing its leadership.

The organization has been criticized for its relationships with dictators, including Brazilian dictator Marshal Artur da Costa e Silva, General Suharto of Indonesia, Salvadoran general Carlos Eugenios Vides Casanova, and Honduran general Gustavo Alvarez Martinez.

Fellowship members have been active in reconciliation efforts between the warring leaders of The Democratic Republic of the Congo and Rwanda.

The organization has operated under other names, including: National Committee for Christian Leadership, International Christian Leadership, the National Leadership Council, Fellowship House, the National Fellowship Council.

Current operations

The Fellowship is incorporated in the United States as a tax-free 501(c)(3) organization operating under the name The Fellowship Foundation. While they conduct no fundraising operations, they reported revenues of more than $12 million in 2003 from donations. Its mission statement is:

"To develop and maintain an informal association of people banded together, to go out as "ambassadors of reconciliation," modeling the principles of Jesus, based on loving God and loving others. To work with the leaders of other nations, and as their hearts are touched, the poor, the oppressed, the widows and the youth of their country will be impacted in a positive manner. Youth groups will be developed under the thoughts of Jesus, including loving others as you want to be loved."

While The Fellowship, which strives to be "invisible," has received some media attention for allegedly having behind-the-scenes influence over political leaders, the allegations have never been proven.

Their primary activity is to develop small support groups for members of Congress, businesspersons, and anyone else who is interested in the teachings of Jesus. Prayer groups have met in the Pentagon and at the Department of Defense. Connections to the CIA have also been alleged.

The Fellowship maintains a three-story, 7,914-square-foot red brick townhouse at 133 C Street in Washington, D.C., near the United States Capitol. The townhouse used to be a convent. As many as six members of Congress, Democratic and Republican, live here while in Washington. In 2003, these men paid $600 a month to live there: U.S. Reps. Zach Wamp, R-Tenn.; Bart Stupak, D-Mich.; Jim DeMint, R-S.C.; and Mike Doyle, D-Pa.; and U.S. Sens. John Ensign, R-Nev.; and Sam Brownback, R-Kan. The house, which was valued at $1.1 million in 2003, is owned by a Fellowship sister organization called the C Street Center. IRS records show that the Center received more than $145,000 in grants from the Fellowship between 1997 and 2000.

The Fellowship operates a retreat center as an "unofficial headquarters," at the end of Twenty-fourth Street North in Arlington, Va. Called "The Cedars," it was purchased in 1978 through donations from, among others, Tom Phillips, CEO of arms manufacturer Raytheon; and Ken Olsen of Digital Equipment Corporation.

There is no official membership of the group. Most members of Congress who participate are from the Republican Party but some Democrats such as Hillary Clinton participate as well. Senators who have been cited as members of the organization include Don Nickles and James Inhofe of Oklahoma, Charles Grassley of Iowa, Pete Domenici of New Mexico, John Ensign of Nevada, Bill Nelson of Florida, Conrad Burns of Montana. Members of the House who have been cited as participants include Frank Wolf of Virginia and Joseph Pitts of Pennsylvania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_(Christian_political_organization)


A religious group with the CEO of arms manufacturer Raytheon involved in it, and a great many Republicans - and Clinton's in it ? Seems a bit strange to me.

She's adapted some strangely conservative stances on the Iraq war.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/hillary-congenital-hawk_b_93707.html

And some other interesting facts....


In the 2008 Defense Authorization Bill, Mrs. Clinton has secured more earmarks than any other Democrat except for panel Chairman Sen. Carl Levin. Clinton's beneficiaries include defense giant Northrop Grumman, which secured $6 million for the AN/SPQ-9B radar; New York-based Telephonics, which won $5 million for a standardized aircraft wireless intercom system for the National Guard Black Hawk helicopter fleet; Plug Power Inc., another New York state company, which got $3 million for fuel cell power technology; and Alliant Tech Systems (ATK), which won $3.5 million for the X-51 B robust scramjet research.

The Seattle Times reported that in all, Clinton co-sponsored 66 earmarks totaling about $150 million. Clinton mostly handed out business to defense contractors with operations in New York. The Seattle Times counted more than 220 earmarks for Clinton in six other recent spending bills.

In turn, Clinton has taken approximately $60,000 from Defense lobbyists in the 2008 election cycle.

With regard to earmarks, an issue that voters of both parties respond to, Sen. Hillary Clinton is the queen of the hidden dollar. The Clinton campaign has repeatedly refused to respond to requests that she identify her earmarks. She went so far as to vote against an amendment last year which would have required public disclosure of earmark requests.

Clinton now says she plans to release her requests for 2009 but when it comes to previous years, mums the word. Taxpayers for Common Sense estimates that Senator Clinton has received a little over two billion dollars in earmarks during the course of her Senate career.

Here are some of her earmarks, and other information about them, that are of particular interest.

Sen. Clinton got $18,600 in campaign contributions from Alan Gerry, a former cable television mogul and registered Republican, days after she made a million dollar earmark for his Woodstock Concert Museum. It was included in a Senate education spending bill. It's neither illegal nor unusual for contributors to benefit from congressionally directed spending. Far too often, in fact, it's business as usual. When the earmark made the news late last year the Senate finally passed an amendment to cut the funding

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rt-eby/queen-of-the-hidden-dolla_b_91860.html


She defended Walmart by taking on people trying to unionize it.


Hillary Clinton was on the Board of Directors of Wal-Mart for 6 years. Wal-Mart paid her $18,000 each year she was on the board and $1,500 for every meeting she attended. She accumulated at least $100,000 in Wal-Mart stock. This might be the reason she refuses to release her tax records even though Barack Obama has done so. Maybe it's time we demand that she give back this blood money? Moreover, when Hillary Clinton was with the Rose Law firm in Little Rock she defended Wal-Mart against workers who tried to organize unions making the firm, in the words of labor leader Jonathan Tasini, "one of the most active anti-union law firms in the country."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-a-palermo/hillary-clinton-and-walm_b_93638.html


So we have this "liberal" who is part of a religious group with a right wing slant. She takes money from defense contractors, and takes a hawkish view on military subjects. She worked as an anti-union lawyer.

Interesting, isn't it ?
 designingwoman

Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 362
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/28/2008 1:58:15 PM
Shrillary is VERY polarizing, and disruptive. She could lead the Democratic Party to ruin if she doesn't step down and give Obama the chance to be our next president. He is called the Uniter by others, and is making the effort to bring people together. Of the three candidates, only Barack Obama is a decent human being who wants to do the right thing. McCain is too much of a warmonger and will send us continuing down the wrong path as set by Bushboy and its cronies. Shrillary is too conservative to make things better, and is actually being bought out by the special interests out there. It's time for a change, and Obama's the man for the job!!

GO OBAMA!!!!!
 itechman42

Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 363
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/28/2008 2:35:50 PM
Excellent!

I will never be sold on an experience advantage for Hillary. While she was being elected for her first ever term as an actual policymaker, Obama already had been for 4 years as a legislator before she ever got her boxes unpacked in her office.

As a First Lady both in Arkansas and DC, while attempting to push through a cause in which she believed for a fraction of the time before it was scrapped she did have some exposure to politics. After that her involvement as First Lady did not have the impact of Nancy Reagan's 'Just Say No' anti-drug campaign. A woman who also traveled abroad meeting with dignitaries to discuss issues of the day but never presumed to be equipped to lead. None of this is to discount what HRC did do, but to consider it significantly more substantial to qualify her for the office is something I don't buy. Much of the argument made means I'm only slightly less qualified because my time watching West Wing was not like living there... slightly.

What stands out to me is that the nature of bills authored and co-authored by Obama mostly confront the issues head on, receive bipartisan co-sponsorship, and even have been co-authored with right wing Conservative Republicans. Meanwhile Hillary has most that are "safe" with many have zero or few co-sponsors even though some are very good proposals. The record shows that Obama has had much success in the past achieving precisely what he says now is what he wants to take to the next level while in turn it shows that even when her ideas are good ones that Hillary struggles to get support from her colleagues.

Obama proactively authored a bill to specifically state that the resolution to authorize force in Iraq DOES NOT carry over to be inclusive of Iran. He has introduced numerous amounts of legislation to care for veterans, for extreme ethics reform, environment, campaign finance disclosure and accountability, child health and safety, lending institution controls and regulation, accountability and regulation of independent contractors such as Blackwater, etc.

His work in the US Senate is much more extensive than Clinton's in less time. Shows not only more of a "fighter" attitude than does HRC but also the ability to "extend across the aisle" and to get support for his ideas. In short, (LOL!) his track record shows a proven ability to do exactly what he pledges to do as President. He sticks his neck out. For what it's worth, not only does none of his work say "Black Power", very little of it focuses solely on minority slanted policies.
 itechman42

Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 364
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/29/2008 12:35:38 AM
What? This thread was going strong with "He's the Debil" until I mention that there's actually substance inside the suit?
 Kiss_My_Karma~

Joined: 7/4/2005
Msg: 365
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/29/2008 5:38:29 AM
Hillary has not gotten a lot of important legislation passed. And while searching for what she has accomplished I found this article:

Go to www.hillaryclinton.com and check out Bill Clinton's syrupy five minute ad for Hillary. He introduces the commercial by saying that he wants to share some things we may not know about Hillary's background. His version of her biography is about as reliable as if it appeared in Pravda!
So, I wanted to make a few corrections:

Bill says: Hillary never wanted to run for public office, but she did want to work at public service.
The true facts are: When Clinton was considering not running for another term as Governor of Arkansas in 1990, Hillary said she would run if he didn't. She and Bill even had me take two surveys to assess her chances of winning. The conclusion was that she couldn't win because people would just see her as a seat warmer for when Bill came back licking his wounds after losing for president. So she didn't run. Bill did and won. But there is no question she had her eye on public office, as opposed to service, long ago.

Bill says: In law school Hillary worked on legal services for the poor.
The true facts are: Hillary's main extra-curricular activity in law school was helping the Black Panthers, on trial in Connecticut for torturing and killing a federal agent. She went to court every day as part of a law student monitoring committee trying to spot civil rights violations and develop grounds for appeal.

Bill says: Hillary spent a year after graduation working on a children's rights project for poor kids.
The true facts are: Hillary interned with Bob Truehaft, the head of the California Communist Party. She met Bob when he represented the Panthers and traveled all the way to San Francisco to take an internship with him.

Bill says: Hillary could have written her own job ticket, but she turned down all the lucrative job offers.
The true facts are: She flunked the DC bar exam and only passed the Arkansas bar. She had no job offers in Arkansas and only got hired by the University of Arkansas Law School at Fayetteville because Bill was already teaching there. She only joined the prestigious Rose Law Firm after Bill became Attorney General and made partner only after he was elected Governor.

Bill says: President Carter appointed Hillary to the Legal Services Board of Directors and she became its Chairman.
The true facts are: The appointment was in exchange for Bill's support for Carter in his 1980 primary against Ted Kennedy. Hillary became chairman in a coup in which she won a majority away from Carter's choice to be chairman.

Bill says: She served on the board of the Arkansas Children's Hospital.
The true facts are: Yes she did. But her main board activity, not mentioned by Bill, was to sit on the Wal-Mart board of directors, for a substantial fee. She was silent about their labor and health care practices.

Bill says: Hillary didn't succeed at getting health care for all Americans in 1994 but she kept working at it and helped to create the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) that provides five million children with health insurance.
The true facts are: Hillary had nothing to do with creating CHIP. It was included in the budget deal between Bill Clinton and Republican Majority Leader Senator Trent Lott. I helped to negotiate the deal. The money came half from the budget deal and half from the Attorney Generals' tobacco settlement. Hillary had nothing to do with either source of funds.

Bill says: Hillary was the face of America all over the world.
The true facts are: Her visits were part of a program to get her out of town so that Bill would not appear weak by feeding stories that Hillary was running the White House. Her visits abroad were entirely touristic and symbolic, and there was no substantive diplomacy on any of them.

Bill says: Hillary was an excellent Senator who kept fighting for children's and women's issues.
The true facts are: Other than totally meaningless legislation like changing the names on courthouses and post offices, she has passed only four substantive pieces of legislation. One set up a national park in Puerto Rico. A second provided respite care for family members helping their relatives through Alzheimer's or other conditions. And two were routine bills to aid 9-11 victims and responders which were sponsored by the entire NY delegation.

There's a bit more to the article, but the author is a former Bill Clinton advisor.

I also found this to be a great read. It's a blog, but the facts are verifiable and it provides links.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/20/201332/807/36/458633

Personally I think it's time for Hillary to pack up her toys and go home. She is doing more harm than good at this point, and she's been really muddying up the campaign. If she wants to even think about VP, she needs to be gracious and step down.
 namegame2

Joined: 4/17/2007
Msg: 366
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/29/2008 7:05:16 AM
Oboobtard is VERY polarizing, and disruptive. He could lead the Democratic Party to ruin if he doesn't step down and give Clinton the chance to be our next president. She is called the Uniter by others, and is making the effort to bring people together. Of the three candidates, only Hillary Clinton is a decent human being who wants to do the right thing. McCain is too much of a warmonger and will send us continuing down the wrong path as set by Bushboy and its cronies. Oboobtard is too liberal to make things better, and is actually being bought out by the special interests out there. It's time for a change, and Clinton's the woman for the job!!
 Kiss_My_Karma~

Joined: 7/4/2005
Msg: 367
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/29/2008 7:11:54 AM
Well actually if you read the link I provided, and do some research, you will see that the bills that Obama has pushed for and sided with were more often signed bipartisan than Hillary's. I've never heard her called "The Uniter". That's kinda funny, seeing as how so many people really hate her guts. And the most recent Gallup Poll has him ahead of her ten percentage points. She's behind in delegates, she's behind in the polls, she needs to step down. Sorry, she won't be the nominee or the president.

**edit** I'd like to see some clarification on Obama being 'bought out by special interests'....that's one of his platform issues, to get rid of the special interests. And when he found out that a huge donation for his campaign came from a special interest group...he gave it to charity.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 368
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/29/2008 7:57:10 AM

He could lead the Democratic Party to ruin if he doesn't step down and give Clinton the chance to be our next president.


Let me see if I get this straight....

The candidate that followed the rules of the DNC, and successfully ran and won enough primaries to place the other candidate's chance at essentially zero to win the nomination, the candidate that has more popular votes and primary wins, and the candidate that's been far more productive in the Senate in a shorter time than Hillary has been (with all that experience of hers) ......HE should step down ?

Interesting take on the primary system, I must say.


There are some people who are saying, you know, 'We really ought to end this primary; we ought to just shut down,' " There was a poll the other day that said ... let people vote."

- Hillary Clinton


Now this "neck and neck race" is a product of Hillary's campaign, and we can prove this.


Her own campaign acknowledges there is no way that she will finish ahead in pledged delegates. That means the only way she wins is if Democratic superdelegates are ready to risk a backlash of historic proportions from the party’s most reliable constituency.

Unless Clinton is able to at least win the primary popular vote — which also would take nothing less than an electoral miracle — and use that achievement to pressure superdelegates, she has only one scenario for victory. An African-American opponent and his backers would be told that, even though he won the contest with voters, the prize is going to someone else.

People who think that scenario is even remotely likely are living on another planet.

As it happens, many people inside Clinton’s campaign live right here on Earth. One important Clinton adviser estimated to Politico privately that she has no more than a 10 percent chance of winning her race against Barack Obama, an appraisal that was echoed by other operatives.

In other words: The notion of the Democratic contest being a dramatic cliffhanger is a game of make-believe.

http://belowthebeltway.com/2008/03/22/hillary-clinton-has-no-chance/


And what is the reaction of Hillary to all the reality ?


A senior strategist for Sen. Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign says that Sen. Barack Obama can't win the general election in the fall. Mark Penn, a senior adviser to Hillary Clinton, told reporters that if Obama can't win the primary in the battleground state of Pennsylvania then he can't win in November.

"We believe fundamentally it provides a very test of who can really win the general election," Penn was quoted by ABC News correspondent Jake Tapper. "We believe this will again show Hillary is ready to win and Senator Obama really can't win a general election."

The Clinton campaign reportedly tried to deny that Penn had made the statement, but the audio was posted on the USA Today web site. "He doesn't seem to be passing the commander-in-chief test. He's not passing the steward of the economy test. And it looks like he's saying that he won't pass the keystone test," Penn says in the audio, pointing to Ohio, Florida and Michigan as other states that are "critical" to a Democrat's chance of success in November. "Sen. Obama really can't win the general election," he says.

Penn later issued a clarification, saying: "I think if you can't win Pennsylvania, it raises serious questions about whether he can win a general election."

ABC quoted Obama campaign spokesman Tommy Vietor in response: "It can't inspire too much confidence in the Clinton campaign when their pollster ignores both polls and math by making comments as divorced from reality as this one," Vietor said. "Senator Obama is leading in delegates, states won, the popular vote, and fares better than Senator Clinton against John McCain in poll after poll, including critical swing states like Iowa, Colorado, Pennsylvania, New Mexico and Wisconsin," he told ABC

http://thedailyvoice.com/voice/2008/03/clinton-strategist-says-obama-000329.php
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So the reason Hillary should win the nomination, is because Obama can't win the election.

If Obama's the Democratic candidate, I'm sure McCain's staff (and other Republicans) will thank Hillary's people for the ammunition they'll use against her party's candidate.

And another strange concept to ponder....

Why does Hillary show up at a well known right wing newspaper, one that was behind many of the attacks against her and her husband in the past, and rekindles the Wright controversy ?


All of that hesitance ended Wednesday. As Obama watched the Wright storm settle down enough to enjoy a couple days of relaxation on the beach, Clinton re-sparked the maelstrom in an interview with a newspaper long considered one of the main organs of the "vast right-wing conspiracy."

If Clinton believes she needs to use the "Tonya Harding option" to take the Democratic nomination, it appears Richard Mellon Scaife is her Shane Stant and the Pittsburgh Tribune Review editorial board is his metal baton.

For an hour-and-a-half Tuesday afternoon, Clinton sat down with editors and reporters from the paper that spent endless hours investigating her husband's presidential administration. Scaife, the scion to the Mellon fortune who poured millions of his own dollars into Clinton conspiracy-mongering, sat directly to the right of the former first lady during the meeting.

Asked about the fact that Scaife's newspaper was the forum for her first comments on the Wright issue, Clinton laughed and said "it was actually very pleasant," although she recognized it was a "somewhat counterintuitive" place to sit down for an interview.

While Scaife hasn't fully hopped on board the Hillary Clinton express -- he donated $2,300 to GOP nominee John McCain's campaign this year -- Obama seems to be taking the brunt of attacks from his organizations.

Conservative magazine NewsMax, which is partially funded by Scaife, has focused heavily on Wright's speeches, even before the issue bubbled into the mainstream in recent weeks. "Obama's Pastor Slurs Italians" is its most recent offering on the subject. An inaccurate NewsMax article about Obama attending one of Wright's sermons made its way into a column by conservative New York Times columnist Bill Kristol, who later had to issue a correction.

The Clinton campaign also has used onetime Scaife organ the American Spectator, which the billionaire used to investigate conspiracy theories, to distribute dirt on Obama. Clinton's campaign distributed an article from the arch-conservative journal, with which Scaife has since severed ties, to highlight comments from Obama adviser Gen. Tony McPeak.

"It's obviously a little Ironic that the Clintonites have been embracing all sorts of Clinton conspiracy-theorists lately," observers The New Republic's Noam Scheiber. "The Spectator was home to the notorious "Arkansas Project," which was mostly funded by Richard Mellon Scaife, the once rabid Clinton-basher whom Hillary sat down with yesterday in Pittsburgh."

The reaction elsewhere to Clinton's cozying up to the "vast right-wing conspiracy" has been even more pronounced.

"Hell Has Officially Frozen Over," reads the headline on conservative National Review blog The Corner, highlighting the photo of Clinton and Scaife.

Talking Points Memo's Josh Marshall question's Clinton's contention that her Wright condemnation was simply a response to a question she had to answer.

"This is sort of like, 'Hey, I go on Hannity and next thing you know he's asking me about Wright and Farrakhan. How was I supposed to see that coming?'" he writes.

"I don't know just how this went down. But the idea Sen. Clinton and her staff went into an editorial board meeting with Scaife and his lackey reporters without a clear sense that they were going to get at least one choice Jeremiah Wright question just somehow doesn't ring true to me."

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Clinton_disses_Obamas_pastor_to_organ_0326.html


More about Scaife :


Opposition to Bill Clinton

Scaife's publications were substantially involved in coverage against then-President Bill Clinton.

* Scaife was the major backer of The American Spectator, whose Arkansas Project set out to find facts about Clinton and in which Paula Jones' accusations of sexual harassment against Clinton were first widely publicized.

* In a 1999 series of articles on Scaife and foundations that support conservative causes, the Washington Post named a close Scaife associate, Richard Larry, and not Scaife himself as the man who drove the Arkansas Project.

Regardless of his role, the project not only accused Clinton of financial and sexual indiscretions (some later verified, others not), but also gave root to hyperbolic conspiracist notions that the Clintons collaborated with the CIA to run a drug smuggling operation out of the town of Mena, Arkansas and that Clinton had arranged for the murder of White House aide Vince Foster as part of a coverup of the Whitewater scandal. The possibility that money from the project had been given to former Clinton associate David Hale, a witness in the Whitewater investigation, led to the appointment of Michael J. Shaheen as a special investigator. Shaheen subpoenaed Scaife, who testified before a federal grand jury in the matter.

So involved was Scaife in efforts against Clinton that many Democrats believed Hillary Clinton's statement condemning a "vast right-wing conspiracy" against her husband was a direct reference to Scaife himself. President Clinton later admitted to sexual indiscretions, but the other allegations that came out of the Arkansas Project were never proven.

Coincidental to the Lewinsky scandal and Clinton's impeachment, Scaife endowed a new school of public policy at Pepperdine University. Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr was named the first dean of this school, although Pepperdine denies any connection. Starr accepted the post in 1996, but in the ensuing controversy, Starr gave up the appointment in 1998 before ever having started at Pepperdine.

That same year Scaife's friend and Pittsburgh attorney, H. Yale Gutnick, denied that there was any connection between Scaife and Starr:

I can tell you unequivocally that there is absolutely no linkage between Scaife and Starr in any way, shape or form. Had Ken Starr's picture not been all over the television and newspapers in recent weeks, I don't think****Scaife would recognize him at a social event. They have never communicated, they have never seen each other personally, and there's no relationship whatsoever.

****Scaife has been involved with Pepperdine I think before Clinton became governor of Arkansas, and clearly long before he was president and before the special prosecutor ever was even a dream in anybody's imagination. His giving to Pepperdine has been consistent over the years and it's been generous.

However, once the investigation was behind him, Starr was appointed to head Pepperdine's law school in 2004.

In the fall of 2007, however, Ruddy published a positive interview with former President Clinton on Newsmax.com, followed by a positive cover story in the magazine. The New York Times noted with reference to the event that politics had made "strange bedfellows". Newsweek reported that Ruddy praised Clinton for his Foundation's global work, and explained that the interview, as well as a private lunch he and Scaife had had with Clinton (which Ruddy says was orchestrated by Ed Koch), were due to the shared view of himself and Scaife that Clinton was doing important work representing the U.S. globally while America was the target of criticism. He also said that he and Scaife had never suggested Clinton was involved in Foster's death, nor had they spread allegations about Bill Clinton's sex scandals, although their work may have encouraged others. It has been suggested that Scaife is motivated by a desire to improve his public image in regard to his divorce, or even that he may be motivated by a desire to oppose his ex-wife's support for Barrack Obama.

Political donations

According to campaignmoney.com, from 1999 through 2006, Scaife has, under the name "R. Scaife," made 10 contributions of over $200 to political campaigns, for a total of $19,000. Under the name "R.M. Scaife" he made 4 donations, for a total of $22,000. Under the name Richard Scaife, he made 23 donations over this period, for a total of $142,904. Besides donations to the Republican National Committee and various political campaigns such as Santorum 2000 and the Santorum Victory Committee for Rick Santorum, he has also supported Political Action Committees such as the Pro-Growth Action Team, the Free Congress PAC (formerly: Committee For the Survival Of a Free Congress), and the Club For Growth Inc. PAC.

Scaife also funded the Western Journalism Center, headed by Joseph Farah. Farah has been connected to reconstructionism, a movement to replace judicial law with Christian Old Testament law. The organization is antigay, and would move to punish "practicing homosexuals" by sentencing them to death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Mellon_Scaife


So she walks into this interview, into the heart of the beast, and uses it to attack Obama. She sits across from the man who was one of her biggest and bitterest critics - and waits for the easy question she has to know will be asked.

That's a pretty good indication she's got no ethical concerns over how she uses every weapon in her arsenal to try and take out the person who's leading the race.
 RedTory

Joined: 3/3/2008
Msg: 369
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/29/2008 8:10:23 AM
Obama was sworn in as a US Senator on January 4th, 2005, just shy of 3 years and 3 months ago. For much of the last year, he has been running for President.

Is that enough experience at the federal level?
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 370
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/29/2008 8:25:34 AM
The current President had no experience at a federal level, and just five years as Texas governor.

Obama's got four years as an Illinois senator (1997 to 2004), and four years as a US senator (2004-present).

Hillary's got eight years in the Senate (2000-present), and all those "First Lady" / "co-president" Walter Mitty delusions. That wouldn't be too bad if the Constitution actually had created a "co-President" post.

Obama's got a far stronger legislative record, even when in a minority position in a legislature. He's put forward far more bills, with far more "meat" on them than Hillary has.
 Steven02151

Joined: 2/17/2008
Msg: 371
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/29/2008 8:29:00 AM
I like all the candidates for different reasons. Hillary and McCain smack of entitlement, though.

Hillary has positioned herself for a long time, she hasn't contrasted herself from the Bush camp enough for me to see much of a change, and seems full of piss and vinegar........raw ambition. Also, four more years of the Clinton Show.....uh-uh. Bill did some good things, but this was a President that lied to the entire country and was impeached, I can't get past that.

McCain also seems entitled by his length of service and "hero" status. I would take him over Hillary if Obama werent running, but he is so close to Bush that I can't do four more years of this .......and also, it's going to take four years to just UNDO the damage Bush did and he won't last a second term, it will be 8 years to really undo the damage AND move forward on solid footing. He said something recently about America stepping back from being the world's police, forming a new consensus among democracies and being a better citizen in the international community, etc., which surprised and delighted me. I do think invading Iran would be a huge disaster and it scares me that he is leaning that way. It REALLY scares me that he would select Joe Leiberman as VP and might die in office while that slimeball becomes President.

Obama is the only one, if for no other reason than by default! My understanding is that Obama was encouraged by several fellow Senators to run for office. He is VERY well-respected among his peers and it was basically put to him that the country needs him NOW and hanging around the Senate to cast another 2,000 votes or so is not going to make any difference.

I think the Senators know that this government is a divided one, very divided, and paralyzed because of it. They know that a President who will not polarize and can unite is the ticket we need.

Also, I hear Obama talking about self-sufficiency, personal responsibility, etc.....not major social programs in the old style of welfare, which is more the style of Clinton. Hilary is more a "give them fish", Obama is more a "teach them to fish" and McCain is more a "let them alone and figure it out themselves".

Also, Hillary isn't speaking for the people so much. People are worried about global warming, this endless war in Iraq, no savings, precarious finances, jobs gone overseas, etc. Obama seems to be listening more and representing the people's concerns more, more in touch..........and that's what we need. He may not have the pedigree that the other two have ........but this is America, we're not run by royals or blood lines here.

Oh, lastly, the lady just rings hollow to me. Purely subjective, but I just get the sense she will do and say anything to get elected and has no integrity. McCain and Obama seem to have more integrity but McCain is the past, Obama's is the future.
 RedTory

Joined: 3/3/2008
Msg: 372
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/29/2008 8:52:55 AM
MG, citing the experience of King George the Stupid is not confidence-inspiring.

Yes, Obama apparently has sponsored or co-sponsored some bills that have become law (15 by one person's review of Congressional records).
 itechman42

Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 373
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History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/29/2008 10:22:56 AM

only Hillary Clinton is a decent human being who wants to do the right thing.


I spit my coffee out on that one.
 southernlass

Joined: 5/2/2006
Msg: 374
view profile
History
Why are Hillary AND Obama going to lose the general election?
Posted: 3/29/2008 12:15:27 PM
What the DNC doesn't get is that Hillary Clinton dropping out of this race is not going to inspire her significant percentage of the democratic supporters to turn around and vote for Obama in November. Umm....get a clue here. It aint going to happen.

The DNC and the nonstop talking heads don't get that the division that has already occurred is drastic and that we're talking Grand Canyon here. The Democratic party is at war with itself. They think we're all magically going to unite and "get behind" the nominee (which the primary media loves to tout daily is Obama) then we get to come on here and read more crapola which is all the same (Obama-mania) and Howard Dean and the pundits actually believe we're going to somehow heal from this bloodbath and between July and November we'll make all nice like and go and push the button for Obama in the voting booth at the general!


Not gonna happen, people. There's too much internal rage, too much fury. Too much hate for the other side. This thread's title needs to be changed to "Why are Hillary and Obama going to lose the general election?"

Edit: Had the proponents and supporters of each side treated one another with respect, had the candidates treated one another with respect, the division might have been less fractured and been able to be healed. As it stands now, I'm willing to bet money there is no chance this breech is going to heal. And because so many are trying to make Clinton quit and push her out, the animosity is only going to grow to near epic proportions. The whole thing was handled badly with the Florida and Michigan voter fiasco. Nope. No one is going to forget any of it.

 itechman42

Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 375
view profile
History
Why are Hillary AND Obama going to lose the general election?
Posted: 3/29/2008 12:53:05 PM
Yep, the kitchen sink should have stayed where it was.
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