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 Author Thread: Why is Hillary losing? [Thread Closed]
 spitfire6844

Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 126
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/9/2008 9:06:12 AM
Namegame: I said no retaliation. There was no retaliation against Al Qaeda. No one is talking about criminal trials against low-level perps, who weren't even actual Al Qaeda members (just low-level associates of Al Qaeda). You don't need a Commander In Chief for that. A sporadic, poorly-planned missile strike or two over an 8 year period doesn't constitute effective retaliation. Also, the U.S.S. Cole attack happened well over 3 months before Bush took office. The Clintons own the failure to respond to that attack, too.

The foreign policy failures in Somalia, Haiti, Rwanda, and the Sudan are also part of the Clinton legacy. One of the very few foreign policy successes (if it can be called that) the Clinton Administration had was in Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, regarding the removal of Slobodan Milosevic. That action was only partially successful in terms of stability in the region, and was more of a NATO triumph than a Clinton action.

No one is saying that the Clinton Administration was a complete failure. Domestically, Bill Clinton had some successes. However, Hillary is specifically claiming foreign policy experience from her time in the Clinton White House. The record shows that whatever "experience" she gained won't be useful to American national security interests currently.
 namegame2

Joined: 4/17/2007
Msg: 127
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/9/2008 2:15:45 PM

Namegame: I said no retaliation. There was no retaliation against Al Qaeda. No one is talking about criminal trials against low-level perps, who weren't even actual Al Qaeda members (just low-level associates of Al Qaeda). You don't need a Commander In Chief for that. A sporadic, poorly-planned missile strike or two over an 8 year period doesn't constitute effective retaliation. Also, the U.S.S. Cole attack happened well over 3 months before Bush took office. The Clintons own the failure to respond to that attack, too.


Missile strikes are retaliation. As I said before, one can argue whether they were the appropriate response, but to say there was no retaliation is absurd. In Operation Infinite Reach, 75 cruise missles were launched at four camps in Afghanistan, and several more at the pharmaceutical factory in Sudan. Although not as effective as hoped, it was a concentrated response, not a missle-strike or two over 8 years as you describe.

As for whether the defendents were low-level perps and not members of AQ, I don't see where you get that from. The planner Ramzi Yousef had quite a history as a terrorist, and was related to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. If you want to claim that they were not AQ, then why would retaliating against AQ be appropriate? As far as has been reported no evidence has emerged linking the planning to bin Laden. So I don't get it - what sort of retaliation do you have in mind?

As for the Cole attack, there was no evidence initially that AQ was behind it - there was no consenses for the first month. Since any military retaliation has real political implications, I think it was entirely appropriate not to tie the hands of the next administration two months before it assumes power.
 carmel m fox

Joined: 11/27/2006
Msg: 128
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/9/2008 3:35:50 PM
There is little difference in the issues and promises they both bring to the table.
Obama is very charismatic with a fresh face. Obama shows us an honest strong family man, ready to buckle down to the issues. His little dirty secrets, maybe yet to come, but for now he is looking good for moral goodness.
Hillary, standing by her man lost her a lot of respect from the people she wants to serve. It truly shows she supports liars & cheaters from the get go.
Had Hillary left Bill on the curb, I think she would be out in front today with her dedicated service . Hillary's marriage appears to be a scam for the public, people want to see a strong home front.
 namegame2

Joined: 4/17/2007
Msg: 129
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/9/2008 3:56:25 PM

Hillary, standing by her man lost her a lot of respect from the people she wants to serve. It truly shows she supports liars & cheaters from the get go.


I'm curious. What if Obama or McCain's wife has had an affair sometime in the past? Would a man standing by his wife if she cheated on him disqualify him for being president?
 designingwoman

Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 130
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/9/2008 7:23:21 PM
Why Shrillary is losing from a Democratic woman's perspective:

1. She voted for the war in Iraq

2. I can't trust her

3. She lost control of her emotions in public

4. Her personality is cold, calculating and reminds me of a shrew

5. She is too divisive to win the national election--many liberal Democrats like myself can't stand her, and people who are conservative can't stand her either.

6. Obama has more appeal across the political spectrum and is a genuinely good man.

7. Claiming that being first lady qualifies as "experience" Give me a (unprintable!!) break!!!

8. Her voice is annoying and grating on the nerves. ICK

9. Her health care mandate includes garnishing of wages, which is disgusting and a sop to the greedy private insurance industry

10. She's been bought out by the lobbyists and doesn't care about the poor

11. She's more of the same--so is McVain (McPain) while Obama is someone new with an interesting set of experiences outside of government that would help in both domestic and international issues.

GO OBAMA!!!!!!!!!
 namegame2

Joined: 4/17/2007
Msg: 131
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/9/2008 8:08:26 PM
It is ironic that you call her Shillary.
 spitfire6844

Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 132
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/9/2008 10:14:23 PM
I was waiting for Designing Woman to post on this thread. Designing Woman always has some valid observations on Hillary, and she hasn't disappointed the forums yet.

President Bush (who has made many mistakes and is not an exemplary president) has at least launched successful retaliatory efforts against the Al Qaeda leadership. When top Al Qaeda leaders are killed, that constitutes effective retaliation. When you coordinate efforts with the World Bank and various international banks to dry up Al Qaeda's finances, that's effective retaliation. The Clintons had zero success striking back against Al Qaeda. They took out none of the top strategists and leaders. Bombing chemical plants or hideouts when the Al Qaeda leadership know several days in advance that the strikes are coming----does not constitute effective retaliation.

Bill Clinton failed in most foreign policy matters. Anything Hillary learned from her White House years won't be sufficient for an incoming Commander In Chief in 2009.
 Outdoor2

Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 133
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/9/2008 11:40:14 PM

When you coordinate efforts with the World Bank...

The U.S. has been, in effect, running the World Bank for decades.....

Clinton is effective one on one or one on twenty, but give her a larger audience and she turns into Shillary.

Obama is an excellent orater, whether one on one or one on thousands.

I think most people are tired of the same old same old and are willing to bet their last two nickels (if they have two to rub together) on anything that isn't a look back (Clinton) or a more of the same (McCain)....

If Clinton wins, she'll have to opt for Obama for V.P. (if he'll accept)

If Obama wins, his options are wide open.

BTW.....on one occasion, B. Clinton ordered an attack on OBL, but it was thwarted because a top Saudi diplomat was meeting with OBL at the time....

It makes one wonder who's really running the show...
 spitfire6844

Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 134
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 3:42:19 AM

"If you put those two things together, you'd have an almost unstoppable force."
--Bill Clinton




The "unstoppable force" reeks of Bill and Hill's desperation and chutzpah. The truth is that the presence of Hillary anywhere on a presidential ticket is an albatross. She'll sink it in either spot on the ticket.
 gotcha1111

Joined: 10/15/2005
Msg: 135
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 6:45:38 AM
the clintons have upon their hands the blood of over 3000 soldiers, fighting in a war, that Bill could have prevented, should have prevented, yet took the ostrich approach, when light was shed upon the plight in Iraq, and Saddam selling oil to turkey, in violation of the desert storm treaty, and by doing so, was wreaking havic on the Kurds, whom backed coalition forces, in an effort to oust saddam back in "91. war is a terrible thing, but to let a pot of sinister leaders left to simmer, and claim isolationism, as was done with Hitler, Bin Laden, after numerous threats upon the country of USA, and it's people, and Saddam, knowing full well he was paying suicide bombers as martyrs, to destruct havic on Isreal, and with US foreign policy tied to the hip of Isreal, was not long in calling from Sharon to Bush, to remedy the nuisance.
Now Hillary wants to be pres.....YIKES, you know if she would have held the reigns in her own house, and gave Bill the fry-pan for his escaped with Monica, i might have some respect for her, but to do the swiss means of defence, and again plop her head in the sand for fear of hurting her political carrer, then how does she expect to run the wite house, when hers is soiled
 itechman42

Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 136
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 7:56:42 AM
My problem with the Clinton's is simply that they are never held accountable by their supporters.

Bill's current "unstoppable force" comment suggesting that the loser in the nomination would be the best choice with the winner as the running mate is an example of manipulation of their Zombie Army. The Clinton's essentially are saying with that ploy to steal the superdelegates the same thing to the American public that they have always said from "I didn't inhale" forward.... "You are stupid". Call me crazy, but I think everyone should have a problem with that.

Of the things of which the Clintons were never proven guilty, people forget they were never proven innocent. Allegiance is great but don't you think that allegiance should be earned? Don't you think you should say to the Clintons that since you are going to support them that you should demand they for one time in their lives to be forthcoming? Every other candidate has disclosed their tax returns and while you might not consider it a big deal to do so, since it was requested why can't you just do it? Why throw up the Kenneth Starr smokescreen as an excuse not to? Tell the Clintons for one time to be up front with you and your support not only will be unwavering, but maybe even unwavering for a good reason besides just that you like them.

Personally I think after 16 years of being laughed at to your face by them and never one single time for them to be up front with you that the window has closed.

And think about it... this election is the Democrats to lose because right-leaning independents and moderate Republicans ARE holding Bush and his administration accountable. We placed our faith in you, you betrayed it, and we will vote for something we think might be better because of it. And here with the office of President almost served on a silver platter, the Clinton's selfishness and game playing is dangerously close to giving the Presidency back to the Republicans for 4 more years.
 mj999

Joined: 10/28/2007
Msg: 137
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 9:47:45 AM
Namegame2: regarding your message #127, it is an undeniable fact that it was Clinton's total ineptitude that allowed radical Islamic fascism to thrive under his watch. This man was more concerned with the country's reputation (plus his personal pleasures) than with the country's SAFETY. As an ex-president, a disgraced and impeached president at that, should have no place or voice in the current election. I laughed really hard when Hillary said at a couple of her debates that "it took one Clinton to CLEAN (lol) the mess of one Bush and that it would take another Clinton to clean the mess of the other Bush". Obama missed an opportunity when he did not respond to such ridiculous comment.

BJ Clinton and Hillary Clinton, the clean up team, give me a break.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 138
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 9:56:25 AM
Namegame2: regarding your message #127, it is an undeniable fact that it was Clinton's total ineptitude that allowed radical Islamic fascism to thrive under his watch. This man was more concerned with the country's reputation (plus his personal pleasures) than with the country's SAFETY.


As opposed to the man who did nothing against Bin Laden for nine months in office, even when warned he was planning an attack on the US ?


"All right. You've covered your ass, now."

President Bush, after being advised of the possibility of an attack by a CIA briefer


He had months to do something, and did zip. He was too busy already concentrating on Iraq.

He could have issued an FAA directive to securely lock all aircraft doors in flight, and to not open them until landing - even a secret order.

Didn't.

He STILL hasn't got him.

He actually said :


HOST: Alright Fred, you and a few other journalists were in the Oval Office with the President, right? And he says catching Osama bin Laden is not job number one?

BARNES: Well, he said, look, you can send 100,000 special forces, that’s the figure he used, to the mountains of Pakistan and Afghanistan and hunt him down, but he just said that’s not a top priority use of American resources. His vision of a war on terror is one that involves intelligence to find out from people, to get tips, to follow them up and break up plots to kill Americans before they occur. That’s what happened recently in that case of the planes that were to be blown up by terrorists, we think coming from England, and that’s the top priority. He says, you know, getting Osama bin Laden is a low priority compared to that.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/14/barnes-osama/


So when Clinton tries to do something, he's wagging the dog.

If Bush says he's a low priority - that's just fine.
 mj999

Joined: 10/28/2007
Msg: 139
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 10:23:28 AM
To get back on "Why is Hillary losing"?.
Yes, mathematically speaking she behind in terms of delegates, popular vote and # of states, yet Hillary and Bill are kindly offering him the #2 post.

Obama is just responding back now to such offer...he says he is running to be Commander-in-Chief, not VP and that it is indeed laughable for the person in the #2 spot to be offering that place to the person who is ahead.
 Bikeman_

Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 140
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 11:03:36 AM

Yes, mathematically speaking she behind in terms of delegates, popular vote and # of states
Depending on how you count votes, Hillary is ahead of Obama in the popular vote.

Obama wins lots of small states. Hillary wins big states. States which are generally more important in the actual election. But you can win by winning lots of small states. The # of states is quite moot in terms of assessing someone's candidacy.

True Obama right now has more delegates. Will he have more delegates going into the convention? Maybe. Maybe not.

I'm not sure why Obama people were looking for Hillary to quit and hand over last Tuesday's elections.

It's practically a dead heat for the 2008 Democratic nomination, much like the 2000 presidential election.

Hillary's not really losing. But she certainly isn't winning, either. There's lots not to like about her. I'm not bashing her, just stating facts. She is polarizing. And she (and Bill too) certainly is NOT an angel. NEITHER IS OBAMA.

What will probably swing this nomination into Obama's favor is his record on Iraq. Other than that, there really isn't much difference issue-wise between the two candidates.
 spitfire6844

Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 141
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 11:06:57 AM
Here's the "straight talk" (as John McCain would say):

You've got three Senators here. The personal qualities most emphasized as being crucial in this election are experience and judgment. Here's the consensus of what we would get in the Oval Office with each candidate:

John McCain: Good Experience, Limited Judgment

Barack Obama: Limited Experience, Good Judgment

Hillary Clinton: Limited Experience, Limited Judgment



That's basically what any alert voter would be likely to conclude from the information which has come out in this campaign season. The choices are pretty clear.
 Bikeman_

Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 142
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 11:40:07 AM
I'd say Obama's judgment is Unknown--a guess at least on Iraq. Since he was not in the Senate in 2002-2003, one does not know how he would have ACTUALLY voted on Iraq. It's just conjecture. Since I wasn't in the Senate meetings, I don't know what kind of crap they were fed as facts as it relates to Iraq's participation with weapons of mass destruction. The judgment issue is clearly subjective, not cut-and-dry.

I don't see why Hillary's experience would be classified as Limited. Her experience falls somewhere between McCain's experience and definitely over Obama's.
 Crash1967

Joined: 6/2/2007
Msg: 143
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 12:26:37 PM
Bikeman, Clinton is not ahead in the popular vote. I don't know if you were misinformed or are trying to spin it this way but your not the first person I've heard say that and they were wrong too. Please tell us where you got the information you presented regarding Hillary and the popular vote?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html
 Bikeman_

Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 144
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 1:14:51 PM
Crash, that's my link. When you count Michigan and Florida, Hillary is ahead. See my comment "depending on how you count the votes". It depends on what happens with Florida and Michigan.

I must admit I'm kind of ignorant on the this whole Michigan/Florida fiasco. My guess here is that these states' delegates will somehow need to declare support for Hillary and Obama, the majority of which will probably support Hillary? Who knows.

It's likely they'll wind up splitting most of the remaining popular vote. Hillary has got to get off her ass and campaign in North Carolina like she wants to win it. She'll probably win Pennsylvania. She's making a better effort at campaigning, now that she saw Obama out-campaigning her. Every state matters now. States like Indiana, Kentucky, and Washington are key now--whoda thunk it?

There will be no clear consensus. Expecting Hillary to quit before last Tuesday would have been like asking Obama to quit in December when he was behind in every poll. The polls don't really mean anything, it's the votes and the delegates that matter.
 mj999

Joined: 10/28/2007
Msg: 145
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 1:16:33 PM
What exactly is/was her experience Bikeman?

Hillary keeps saying she has 35 years of experience, that she was a member of Bill's team and that she played an integral role in policy making during his 8 years as president. Have we ever seen any proof to this?. No, in fact, Hillary/Bill have refused to release the very records that would provide proof of her achievements (or lack thereof) from this period of time during which she claims she played a vital role.

And what exactly is her foreign policy experience? Travelling and giving speeches?? But aren't speeches just empty, worthless words??.
 HalftimeDad

Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 146
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 1:24:13 PM
Weeks ago Bill said that Hillary had to win Ohio, Texas and Pennsylvania to have any hope. Now she's lost Texas, but she's still in there out of some misguided sense of entitlement.

Come on, her main qualification is that she married well. That's not going to do much against a strong opponent like Obama or McCain.
 Crash1967

Joined: 6/2/2007
Msg: 147
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 1:45:00 PM
Bikeman - A good read on the confusion of those states.

Democrats need a mediator in delegate dispute
By Albert R. Hunt Bloomberg News
Published: March 9, 2008


The Democratic Party in the United States needs a senior figure - George Mitchell, Al Gore, Jimmy Carter - to avoid a political train wreck.

The disaster-in-waiting isn't the nomination of either Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton, or the over-hyped furor over the role of "superdelegate" professional politicians in selecting the party's standard-bearer.

It is over Michigan and Florida; in any closely contested presidential race, these will be two of the biggest prizes. With an inept party chairman, Howard Dean, there is a risk that the two states will be shut out of the Democratic convention, or be seated in a way that blows up the party.

This fight may seem like a dull, arcane rules dispute. Yet it might determine the next president, so stick with this for a brief bit of background.

Both the Democratic and Republican parties set dates for when the states could hold their primaries or caucuses. This was reasonable; otherwise, a billboard war of attention would have taken place, pushing the election calendar forward to 2007 and lengthening an already-too-protracted process.

Today in Americas
Sniping by aides hurt Clinton's image as managerGermany likely to pose challenge for McCainMinisters want more done about warmingMoreover, it was wisely decided that smaller states should go first, or else money alone would determine who would win.

Florida and Michigan could have set their primaries or caucuses anywhere from mid-February to June. Instead, they decided to violate the rules and schedule January contests in hopes of attracting more focus.

The two parties had agreed they wouldn't play this game, which ignored the rules. The Republicans wisely devised a compromise where the two states were allowed to vote early while losing half their delegates. Foolishly, the Democrats didn't do the same.

Clinton, the only person whose name was on the ballot, won the Michigan primary with 55 percent of the vote; she also captured the Florida race, where no one campaigned or advertised.

These were shams. Evidence of that: Democratic turnout has soared everywhere this year - running far ahead of the other party even in Republican-leaning states. In Texas, there were almost three million Democratic voters on March 4, twice as many as the Republicans. In Michigan and Florida, the Democratic turnout was less than that of the Republicans, because voters knew the contests didn't matter.

Before the voting season began, when Clinton thought she was the all-but-certain nominee, she vowed not to participate in the Michigan and Florida primaries and agreed that they shouldn't matter.

"It's clear this election they're having isn't going to count for anything," she said of the Michigan contest last year in New Hampshire.

Now that she's fallen behind, she's saying these make-believe contests should be included as if she had actually scored competitive victories.

The bottom line: the Democrats face three options, ranging from cataclysmic to problematic:

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, America's highest-ranking Democrat and the chairman of the convention, has said it would be unacceptable to have delegations that didn't play by the rules be "dispositive" of the outcome. If that were the case, a large percentage of the Obama forces would justifiably walk out.

In any close general election, Florida, with 27 electoral votes, and Michigan, with 17, are among the most important battlegrounds. To stiff these crucial states would be political suicide.

The Obama people would love caucuses, where they have been successful because they are better organized.

Senator Bill Nelson of Florida, a Clinton supporter, protests that holding caucuses would be unfair because "maybe only 50,000 people will show up" to participate. Florida has six times the population of Iowa, where about 240,000 Democrats voted in the January caucuses, or almost fivefold what Nelson predicts for Florida.

Of course, Iowans had the benefit of a freezing snowy night.

The Clinton camp prefers primaries, which are costly and for which no one seems willing yet to pick up the tab.

The Democratic National Committee should foot the bill - though in another display of Dean's incompetence, it doesn't have the money, because it's the party's only election committee that is faltering on fund-raising.

It's time to take this away from the parochial interests of the dueling camps and the Democratic National Committee. Pelosi and other party leaders should force Dean to pick an arbiter or a small committee to resolve this matter quickly.

Mitchell, the former Senate majority leader, would be the ideal choice. Every blue-ribbon panel he's headed, the most recent being over drug use in baseball, has been credible and contributed much. If he's not available, other respected figures who aren't in either camp might include former Vice President Gore or former President Carter.


Then there is still the Limbaugh effect......

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/120505162549970.xml&coll=2

16,000 Republicans in Cuyahoga crossed over and voted Democratic in primary
Sunday, March 09, 2008Amanda GarrettPlain Dealer Reporter
A staggering 16,000-plus Republicans in Cuyahoga County switched parties when they voted in last week's primary.

That includes 931 in Rocky River, 1,027 in Westlake and 1,142 in Strongsville. More than a third of the Republicans in Solon and Bay Village switched. Pepper Pike had the most dramatic change: just under half its Republicans became Democrats. And some of those who changed - it's difficult to say how many - could be in trouble with the law.

At least one member of the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections wants to investigate some Republicans who may have crossed party lines only to influence which Democrat would face presumed Republican nominee John McCain in November.



Barak doesn't have as much experience as McCain, but he's fine being her VP??? This is really getting stupid.....
 Bikeman_

Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 148
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 1:57:00 PM

What exactly is/was her experience Bikeman?
Please don't color me a Hillary fan. However, who has more experience: a two-term senator of 7-plus years who spent a great deal of time with a two-term president, or a one-term senator of 3-plus years?

Now if I were running Hillary's campaign, I'd have explained before all these primaries how I differ from Obama as it relates to foreign policy experience. I can't answer that. But I do know she has spent much more time with Bill Clinton than either me or Obama. Aside from philandering, this guy was a successful president. She HAS to have had something rub off onto her from her husband's presidency.

She needs to explain without preaching , without amping herself up into a shrill shrewish voice, how she tangibly differs from Obama. If she doesn't do this in the next few weeks, she doesn't deserve the nomination. I'm still waiting to see some savvy out of her or her camp. I haven't seen any savvy yet.
 Bikeman_

Joined: 10/8/2005
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 2:03:23 PM

A good read on the confusion of those states
Thanks for posting that, Crash. If I lived in either Florida or Michigan, I'd be wondering what kind of douchebag elected officials were planning the elections in my state. They ought to be thrown out on their asses.
 mj999

Joined: 10/28/2007
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Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 3/10/2008 2:13:47 PM
For Hillary, one day "it is an honor to run with Obama", the next is "shame on you Obama". Throughout this campaign, she has mocked Obama's experience, but now is ready to name him VP and trust him to pick up that red phone at 3 a.m. at any given moment??. She has essentially declared herself a winner (in her dreams)...she's desperate indeed.
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