online dating service

Free Dating Site    

REGISTER | MAIL/PROFILE | HELP | NOW ONLINE | SEARCH | RATING | FORUMS | SUCCESS STORIES
Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest 100% free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Why is Hillary losing? [Thread Closed]      Mod Threads Home login  
Page 60 of 98 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98
 Author Thread: Why is Hillary losing? [Thread Closed]
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 1476
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/22/2008 2:50:57 PM
Well, first Obama got a letter of suggestions from Rove, and the HRC campaign used that news in an internal e-mail.



"Morning HUBdate"

Just asking: Why is Karl Rove giving Senator Obama advice on how to win? Could it be that he thinks it will be easier for Republicans to run against the unknown gentleman from Illinois?


OK, not THAT bad.....but not good. It gets better, wait.



PRESTONSBURG, Kentucky (CNN) – Hillary Clinton defended her reasoning for staying in the presidential race Monday afternoon by pointing out that Karl Rove's analysis shows her to be the strongest candidate against John McCain in November.

“There has been a lot of analysis about which of us is stronger to win against Sen. McCain, and I believe I am the stronger candidate,” said Clinton, repeating a line from her stump speech.

Then she veered from her usual argument.

“Just today I found some curious support for that position when one of the TV networks released an analysis done by - of all people - Karl Rove, saying that I was the stronger candidate,” said Clinton. “Somebody go a hold of his analysis and there it is.”

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/19/
clinton-cites-karl-rove-as-reason-to-stay-in/



A jovial Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama took to FOX News early Monday to spin their respective performances in Tuesday’s pivotal Democratic primaries – and faced critiques from former Bush ‘architect’ Karl Rove.

Clinton parried a question about her “humanity,” wooing the network she had once decried.

“I have a little secret, which I will only tell Fox, if you promise not to tell anybody else,” she said. “You know what, I really am a human being. I know that’s hard to believe, but it happens to be true.”

Karl Rove “has handed me a note,” added Fox anchor Steve Doocy (the clip takes place at 2:51). “More US presidents have been born in the month of October than any other month. You were born in—?”

“October,” Clinton replied. “Thank you, Karl. I mean the omens are just stacking up. What can I say?”




 Bikeman_

Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 1477
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/22/2008 3:06:09 PM
I think Hillary is showing she's got a sense of humor as it relates to her May 19 comments about Karl Rove. She's a bit more used to his diatribes than is Obama, and has developed a water-off-a-ducks-back attitude about Rove. She's cracking jokes, certainly not backing her argument that she is a stronger candidate because Rove said so.

Rove is a political strategist and made comments that Hillary is the stronger of the two in a November race. I don't like Rove much, but I agree with his assessment, because we both are looking at projected and likely Electoral College results. Rove pretty much is the reason why the Democrats ought to focus on Electoral College strategy when selecting a candidate, instead of focussing on the one which panders more to left-leaning "ideas".

I still say Obama wouldn't fare as well as Hillary in a November election against McCain. Hillary knows this too, that's why she stays in the race, hoping that
Democratic leaders don't make a strategic mistake in nominating an unelectable candidate, a candidate that can easily be exploited, avoid the 2004 mistake, correct the course where delegates in caucus states were poorly selected, etc.

For MG, I cut and paste some of Rove's ranting in January, when both party's nominations were still very much up in the air. It's sort of ridiculous to view Rove as a promoter for Hillary's campaign.


Rove previews strategies against Clinton, Obama
By Sam Youngman
Posted: 01/16/08 02:55 PM [ET]
Karl Rove told a group of state Republican officials Wednesday that while the GOP primaries “are far from over,” each of the candidates can beat the top two Democrats — and the former White House aide then outlined a strategy how.

While Rove, the man President Bush called “the architect,” might have retired from the White House, he is clearly still very much engaged in the day-to-day mechanics of the presidential contests on both sides.

In an address to a group of state GOP executive directors at the Republican National Committee’s (RNC) winter meeting, Rove outlined talking points for ways to defeat leading Democratic candidates Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.) and Barack Obama (Ill.). The former adviser to the president did not mention former Sen. John Edwards (N.C.).

On Clinton, Rove said the senator talks about fiscal responsibility but has introduced “$800 billion in new spending and the campaign is less than half over.”

Rove said that “the woman” wants to repeal all of Bush’s tax cuts, and that she can be targeted for voting against “troop funding” in the form of her votes against the Iraq war supplementals.

Specifically, Rove hit Clinton for what could have been her worst campaign moment last year, when she had trouble answering a question about driver’s licenses for illegal immigrants at the Democratic debate in Philadelphia.

“You know, Sen. Clinton [has] got a problem with giving straight answers in this campaign,” Rove said. “I thought that was an incredible moment. In the course of 15 minutes, I counted her giving about four different answers.”

The Bush confidant also trotted out one of the lines of attack the RNC has already been working feverishly against Clinton, questioning why she and former President Bill Clinton will not release records from their time in the White House. This, according to Rove, “raises legitimate questions about what she’s hiding.”

Rove made it clear that most Republican attacks on Obama would focus on his “accomplishments and experience.”

“He got elected three years ago, and he [has] spent almost the entire time running for president,” Rove said.

Rove added that Obama has only passed one piece of legislation during his time in the U.S. Senate, and during his time in Illinois state Senate, Obama had “an unusual habit” of voting “present” instead of yes or no.

Rove also said that nonpartisan ratings show that Obama is more liberal than Clinton, which he said is “pretty hard to do.”

Time and again, however, Rove returned to the trump card he used in his successfully executed 2002 and 2004 elections, saying that neither Obama nor Clinton is prepared to protect the country from terrorists.

Rove served notice that Obama and Clinton would be targeted over how they vote on any Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act legislation that comes before the Senate this year.

“Do they or do they not want our intelligence officials to be listening in on terrorists’ conversations in the Middle East who may … be plotting to hurt America?” Rove said.

He told the state officials that it would be their responsibility to find “creative and sustaining ways” to “talk about these contrasts.”

Rove also offered advice to whichever Republican candidate wins the GOP nomination.

He said the candidates had to first “create a sustaining narrative about themselves.” Then he said the candidate should “immediately engage” on the “kitchen table issues,” like healthcare, education, jobs and the economy.

Third, Rove said the GOP nominee has to show that he is serious about campaigning “aggressively in places where Republicans don’t usually campaign.” Rove said that includes among black, Latino, Asian and union voters.

“We’re going for everybody,” Rove said.

Lastly, Rove argued that the Republican candidate must show the electorate “that they understand the surge is working.” Rove said the candidate should get firmly behind the war effort, painting the Democratic nominee as “defeatist.”
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 1478
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/22/2008 3:10:25 PM

It's sort of ridiculous to view Rove as a promoter for Hillary's campaign.


On the joke part, I agree. Kind of appropriate.

Standing up there and claiming Rove's opinions have any validity on the topic, after his record of attacks on her and her husband ?

It validates him.

If you know ANYTHING about Rove, he doesn't reveal his hand to WEAKEN his candidates chances. Just look around, and see all those ACME crates stacked up.


Meep-meep !
 Bikeman_

Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 1479
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/22/2008 3:26:28 PM

Standing up there and claiming Rove's opinions have any validity on the topic, after his record of attacks on her and her husband ? It validates him.
I totally get what you're saying here MG. Hillary is desperate. But frankly Rove is the reason why GWB won a 200o election he had no business winning, he's the reason why the US is divided into red and blue states. You and Obama supporters see Obama somehow turning voting patterns upside down, states won't be polarized red or blue, etc. Hey if he can do that, I'm all for him. I don't really see that happening, Hillary doesn't see that happening, Karl Rove the architect of the GWB campaigns doesn't see that happening, and his knowledge and insights about national campaign strategy are probably right. Let's hope he's wrong.

If you know ANYTHING about Rove, he doesn't reveal his hand to WEAKEN his candidates chances.
Yeah but he's not working for McCain. He's more of a paid political pundit looking for people to pay him for him sharing his opinion.
 spitfire6844

Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 1480
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/22/2008 7:04:51 PM
Hillary is desperate and seems willing to destroy what she can't have. Someone close to her needs to talk sense into her. Like Maggie Williams (her campaign manager) said: "I think it's kooky!"
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 1481
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/22/2008 7:18:56 PM
Yeah but he's not working for McCain. He's more of a paid political pundit looking for people to pay him for him sharing his opinion.


Riiiiiight.


Indicating what lies ahead is the McCain campaign's plan to bring in Tim Griffin, a protege of Karl Rove, who is a leading practitioner of opposition research -- the digging up of derogatory information about political opponents. Although final arrangements have not been pinned down, Griffin would work at the Republican National Committee, as he did during Bush's 2004 reelection campaign.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/
article/2008/05/21/AR2008052102425.html




John McCain is getting much more than President Bush’s endorsement and fundraising help for his campaign. He’s getting Bush’s staff.

It’s no secret that Steve Schmidt, Bush’s attack dog in the 2004 election, and Mark McKinnon, the president’s media strategist, are performing similar functions for McCain now.

But other big-name Bushies are lining up to boost McCain, too. Ken Mehlman, who ran Bush’s 2004 campaign, is now serving as an unpaid, outside adviser to the Arizona Republican.

Karl Rove, the president’s top political hand since his Texas days, recently gave money to McCain and soon after had a private conversation with the senator.

A top McCain adviser said both Mehlman and Rove are now informally advising the campaign. Rove refused to detail his conversation with McCain. The list could grow longer.

Dan Bartlett, formerly a top aide in the Bush White House, and Sara Taylor, the erstwhile Bush political adviser, said they are eager to provide any assistance and advice possible to McCain.

http://blogs4mccain.com/2008/03/09/mehlman-rove-boost-
mccain-campaign-by-david-paul-kuhn-politicocom/


Open your eyes.
 bob0colo

Joined: 4/9/2006
Msg: 1482
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/22/2008 7:47:03 PM

Hillary is desperate and seems willing to destroy what she can't have. Someone close to her needs to talk sense into her. Like Maggie Williams (her campaign manager) said: "I think it's kooky!"


Talk about Kooky... You have been calling the race since march....
Why hasn't he won it? Do the math.....

Why don't the Obama Supers come out of the closet....

Why does Obama want Hillary to stay in...

He is going to get waxed in Puerto Rico..
How would it look to Lose a Primary to someone that has withdrawn

Rove is stating the Facts.... Look at the Hillary Voting Blocks....
Obama will not carry the Electoral College with out her Block....
Women, Hispanic, Florida, Jewish Voters... ect.

Obama will lose with out the Clinton supporters... 17 million of them.

Obama supporters have degraded her voters with every cut directed at her.
Randi Rhodes still calls her a fat ass........

The RNC is not finished, and they have not started yet

The only way I see him winning is with Clinton on the Ticket....
 Barbe1963

Joined: 9/30/2007
Msg: 1483
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/22/2008 7:54:04 PM
Bob? I'm curious, do you think that will happen, or has there been two much bad blood between the two? It's certainly been a bitter fight, and myself I can't really see her settling for second fiddle. What do you think?
 bob0colo

Joined: 4/9/2006
Msg: 1484
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/22/2008 8:08:45 PM
I would prefer she went to the Senate and kick some buttttt.

I have been looking at different Electoral College sites and I don't see Obama doing any better than Kerry...

I invite anyone to show me the swing state Obama will carry...

Tthe only way that Obama wins is with her voters...

At the State Convention in Colo the Obama supporters Boo'd the Clinton Speakers...

These are party people that have been with the it for along time...

They are p/o'ed and not because they have lost.
 FredHH

Joined: 1/24/2007
Msg: 1485
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/22/2008 8:23:41 PM

Posted By: spitfire6844
Hillary is desperate and seems willing to destroy what she can't have


She's a typical liberal.

They live on jealosy and dissention.

If I have an SUV and a liberal can't afford it... its unfair.
It doesn't matter that I WORKED and the liberal is on welfare.

If I managed to pay off my house and the liberal is having problems paying rent... its unfair.
It doesn't matter that I didn't waste my money on a $2,000 car stereo that blasts out windows for 3 blocks (destroying thier hearing and the hearing of thier kids) and maintaining a $15,000 credit card debt for 40 years. (thus wasting $300 a month on interest that would have been better used to pay for food, clothing and a decent place to live)

BTW... do the math on putting $300 a month in the bank at 5% (easy to averrage that) for 40 years and you will see how STUPID it is to carry credit card ballances.

Anything a liberal can't have MUST be unfair.

Gore couldn't win the election... it had to be unfair. (despite how many recounts that ALL showed Bush won?)

So Hillary when can't have the Dem nomination... it must be because of something that is unfair.
It can't be due to the fact that SHE'S NOT WORTHY OF THE NOMINATION.
 PhillyFellow

Joined: 4/9/2008
Msg: 1486
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:49:47 PM
On video: Obama lies about his connection to the criminal charges in the Rezko trial.

Here is Obama claiming no complicity in the criminal charges against Rezko:

YouTube - Obama faces questions on his connections to Tony Rezko.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sHY5LzLW1hU&feature=related

About 25 seconds in he says,"Those charges are completely unrelated to me and I don't think anybody disputes that."

No, anybody who has read about the testimony presented at the trial and knows about how Rezko wielded his corrupt political influence knows that these charges are all about how Obama helped Rezko to illegally swing multi-million dollar state contracts to his business associates:

Curtain Time For Barack Obama:
Final Chapter
By Evelyn Pringle
22 May, 2008
"Tony Rezko is a private citizen. Therefore, the evidence presented in the trial focused on his influence over officials in getting members appointed to the Boards. Prosecutors did not discuss how the legislation got passed that enabled the Planning Board
to be set up in a way that allowed for the appointment of members to rig the votes to begin with.
"That part of the scheme will likely be detailed in future indictments, probably starting with Blagojevich. Blagojevich signed the Illinois Health Facilities Planning Act with an effective date of June 27, 2003. However, before he could sign the act, a bill had to be passed by the Illinois House and Senate. As discussed fully in Curtain Time Part II,
Obama was the inside guy in the senate who pushed through the legislation that resulted in the Act.
"Obama was appointed chairman of the Senate Health and Human Services Committee. The minute the bill was introduced, it was referred to his committee for review. The sponsors of the bill also served on this committee with Obama. Within a month, Chairman Obama sent word to the full senate that the legislation should be passed.
"On May 31, 2003, Senate Bill 1332 passed and specified that the “Board shall be appointed by the Governor, with the advice and consent of the Senate."
The legislation reduced the number of members from 15 to 9, paving the way for the appointment of a five-bloc majority to rig the votes."
http://www.countercurrents.org/pringle220508.htm

These are THE major charges about how Rezko was able to wield his corrupting influence over the decisions of the public officials in the state. He had control over the officials on planning boards responsible for awarding multi-million dollar contracts. But he had to first get those officials on the boards. These officials are first recommended to the state senate by the governor who was and still is Rod Blagojevich. But then those officials have to be approved by the state senate committees that oversee those planning boards. Obama was the chairman of the committee that oversaw the Health Facilities Planning Board.
Since Rezko had both Blagojevich and Obama in his pocket he could control who was appointed to that board.

PhillyFellow
 edisto

Joined: 5/14/2008
Msg: 1487
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:56:11 PM

They are p/o'ed and not because they have lost.

that is so true...

not only do we feel Clinton is a much better choice but we are angry at what the media has ignored reporting-
examples (and I could give many)
http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=24534
Obama supporters booing Clinton

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/hillary_clinton_iron_my_shirt_stunt/
sexism on the campaign trail- as Lisa Cuputo said, if these signs read "shine my shoes" and were at an Obama rally it would have made front page news, but because these signs were at a Clinton rally and read "iron my shirt" it wasn't even reported

sexism, has been a topic not even discussed during the campaign - why?
because Clinton was in a box, if she complained about it, she would have been portrayed as a whiner, if she ignored it, it would go unreported

racism is easier in our culture to recognize, but sexism, is so subtle that many deny it even exists-

why is Hillary losing?
it is simply because she is a woman, black men were given the right to vote before women, black men were allowed to enroll at the Citadel before women, it is the order of "progress" in America-
 Vyper®

Joined: 10/10/2005
Msg: 1488
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/22/2008 11:02:13 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now THAT'S priceless!!!
 edisto

Joined: 5/14/2008
Msg: 1489
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/23/2008 6:28:38 AM
^^^^^^
you are a perfect example of how many in our society react when sexism is the topic, they are "brushed off the shoulder" and dismissed, in place of a real dialogue-
 Bikeman_

Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 1490
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/23/2008 6:55:45 AM
Open your eyes.
Oh, you mean other political strategists with Republican affiliations are supporting the Republican presidential candidate? Imagine that. That's some newsflash.

There's no reporting on "sexism" related to Hillary for two reasons:

Hillary's got twice the cajones than does Obama. She's tougher than a two dollar steak.

The media favors Obama. He's further left. He makes for better news to sell subscriptions and advertisements.

It's good to see that a candidate isn't using a traditional demographic candidate weakness as a campaign crutch.
 bob0colo

Joined: 4/9/2006
Msg: 1491
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/23/2008 7:15:31 AM
The Clinton supporters should suck it up?

I had to laugh when I heard BHO say he was glad for Hillary's efforts.

He knows that now his daughters could run and become president.

Arrogant? Condescending? He does not get it......





By Marie Cocco
Thursday, May 15, 2008; Page A15

As the Democratic nomination contest slouches toward a close, it's time to take stock of what I will not miss.
I will not miss seeing advertisements for T-shirts that bear the slogan "Bros before Hos." The shirts depict Barack Obama (the Bro) and Hillary Clinton (the Ho) and are widely sold on the Internet.
I will not miss walking past airport concessions selling the Hillary Nutcracker, a device in which a pantsuit-clad Clinton doll opens her legs to reveal stainless-steel thighs that, well, bust nuts. I won't miss television and newspaper stories that make light of the novelty item.
I won't miss episodes like the one in which liberal radio personality Randi Rhodes called Clinton a "big [expletive] whore" and said the same about former vice presidential nominee Geraldine Ferraro. Rhodes was appearing at an event sponsored by a San Francisco radio station, before an audience of appreciative Obama supporters -- one of whom had promoted the evening on the presumptive Democratic nominee's official campaign Web site.
I won't miss Citizens United Not Timid (no acronym, please), an anti-Clinton group founded by Republican guru Roger Stone.
Political discourse will at last be free of jokes like this one, told last week by magician Penn Jillette on MSNBC: "Obama did great in February, and that's because that was Black History Month. And now Hillary's doing much better 'cause it's White **** Month, right?" Co-hosts Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski rebuked Jillette.
I won't miss political commentators (including National Public Radio political editor Ken Rudin and Andrew Sullivan, the columnist and blogger) who compare Clinton to the Glenn Close character in the movie "Fatal Attraction." In the iconic 1987 film, Close played an independent New York woman who has an affair with a married man played by Michael Douglas. When the liaison ends, the jilted woman becomes a deranged, knife-wielding stalker who terrorizes the man's blissful suburban family. Message: Psychopathic home-wrecker, begone.
The airwaves will at last be free of comments that liken Clinton to a "she-devil" (Chris Matthews on MSNBC, who helpfully supplied an on-screen mock-up of Clinton sprouting horns). Or those who offer that she's "looking like everyone's first wife standing outside a probate court" (Mike Barnicle, also on MSNBC).
But perhaps it is not wives who are so very problematic. Maybe it's mothers. Because, after all, Clinton is more like "a scolding mother, talking down to a child" (Jack Cafferty on CNN).
When all other images fail, there is one other I will not miss. That is, the down-to-the-basics, simplest one: "White women are a problem, that's -- you know, we all live with that" (William Kristol of Fox News).
I won't miss reading another treatise by a man or woman, of the left or right, who says that sexism has had not even a teeny-weeny bit of influence on the course of the Democratic campaign. To hint that sexism might possibly have had a minimal role is to play that risible "gender card."
Most of all, I will not miss the silence.
I will not miss the deafening, depressing silence of Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean or other leading Democrats, who to my knowledge (with the exception of Sen. Barbara Mikulski of Maryland) haven't publicly uttered a word of outrage at the unrelenting, sex-based hate that has been hurled at a former first lady and two-term senator from New York. Among those holding their tongues are hundreds of Democrats for whom Clinton has campaigned and raised millions of dollars. Don Imus endured more public ire from the political class when he insulted the Rutgers University women's basketball team.
Would the silence prevail if Obama's likeness were put on a tap-dancing doll that was sold at airports? Would the media figures who dole out precious face time to these politicians be such pals if they'd compared Obama with a character in a blaxploitation film? And how would crude references to Obama's sex organs play?
There are many reasons Clinton is losing the nomination contest, some having to do with her strategic mistakes, others with the groundswell for "change." But for all Clinton's political blemishes, the darker stain that has been exposed is the hatred of women that is accepted as a part of our culture.
Marie Cocco is syndicated by the Washington Post Writers Group. Her e-mail address is mariecocco@washpost.com.
 Bikeman_

Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 1492
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/23/2008 7:37:23 AM
If you are not a mesmerized Obamamanic, his gaffes and foot-in-mouths are real apparent. He simply is not a good extemporaneous speaker. Still I don't think you can really believe Obama's campaign is actively seeking the support of rightie sexist nutcases. That's a bit of a stretch.
 bob0colo

Joined: 4/9/2006
Msg: 1493
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/23/2008 8:16:25 AM

you can really believe Obama's campaign is actively seeking the support of rightie sexist nutcases


How about played by the 'rightie sexist nutcases"......

All thoses Clinton Dirty tricks...

Like Drudge posting the picture of Obama coming from Clinton... Sure

There should be no Question about the next President....

No one can answer my question,

Which Swing state can Obama bring to the Electorial count?
 itechman42

Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 1494
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/23/2008 8:22:57 AM

There should be no Question about the next President....


Yes, but Ron Paul won't be winning.
 PhillyFellow

Joined: 4/9/2008
Msg: 1495
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/23/2008 8:33:44 AM
From the Philadelphia Inquirer:

Posted on Fri, May. 23, 2008
In most inclusive count, Clinton has the numbers.
"Lost in the excitement of Barack Obama's coronation this week was an inconvenient fact of Tuesday's results: Hillary Clinton netted approximately 150,000 votes and is now poised to finish the primary season as the popular-vote leader. In some quaint circles, presumably, these things still matter."
...
"It is this looming prospect which explains the tremendous pressure Obama partisans and the media are putting on Clinton to drop out of the race. They want her gone now because they understand that she has an excellent chance of finishing as the undisputed people's choice."
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20080523_In_most_inclusive_count__Clinton_has_the_numbers.html

This may have been why Clinton wanted to stay in the race because she knew this would happen.

As this article notes she will end up with the popular vote lead if Florida and Michigan are counted. And she could wind up with the lead even not counting those states if Puerto Rico comes out big for her in a 28 point or larger margin.

In regards to the question of whether Florida and Michigan should be counted in the popular vote totals, this web page states that in a meeting with a group arguing for counting those states Howard Dean said those states should count:

Tom In Paine: LETTER TO HOWARD DEAN AND THE SEATING OF FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN
Thursday, May 15, 2008
LETTER TO HOWARD DEAN AND THE SEATING OF FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN.
"The letter below has been sent to Howard Dean by the Democratic Women's Leaders, Every Vote Counts, organization (which can be found at COUNTTHEVOTES) as a follow up to a face to face meeting with Dean regarding the seating of Florida and Michigan and other issues.
"Dean acknowledged at the meeting, that the popular vote totals of Florida and Michigan were valid and that the issue of seating the delegates were a separate issue involving the DNC and the Rules Committee and did not reflect on the validity of the popular vote totals of both states. As of now, including the Florida and Michigan totals, and using my formula of apportioning the "uncommitted" line in Michigan of 39% by giving John Edwards the 14% of the vote he had received in other primaries and Obama 25%, ( which amounted to 149,010 votes) Clinton leads Obama in the popular vote by 25,016 votes. The delegates should be apportioned the same way.
"There are indications that a compromise is in the works regarding the seating of the Florida and Michigan delegates. Obama said in a speech the other day that he assured Michigan that "he would make sure" Michigan was seated, ( in typical overblown, grandiose and untrue fashion).
"With Dean acknowleding the obvious, that the raw vote totals in both states are valid, pressure needs to be put on the DNC to count ALL of the duly elected Florida and Michigan delegates. To punish 3 million voters and 15 million Clinton supporters and affecting the choices made for the fall, for what amounted to nothing more than a parking violation committed by state party leaders, would be like using a wrecking ball to swat a fly. With the expected collatoral damage."
http://tominpaine.blogspot.com/2008/...g-seating.html

According to that page, Dean said this during a meeting with the organization:

Count the Votes!
http://www.countthevotes.net/

PhillyFellow
 bob0colo

Joined: 4/9/2006
Msg: 1496
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/23/2008 8:47:29 AM
.
.
You might add Cynthia McKenney\Nader\Barr
 itechman42

Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 1497
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/23/2008 8:57:02 AM

As of now, including the Florida and Michigan totals, and using my formula of apportioning the "uncommitted" line in Michigan of 39% by giving John Edwards the 14% of the vote he had received in other primaries and Obama 25%, ( which amounted to 149,010 votes)


Does anyone else see the ridiculousness of this? That to achieve an absolute, someone is going to apply a formula of assumptions to GUESTIMATE a total?

Is there a way to post in crayon so people understand that popular vote is merely a statistic and it has never mattered in either a nominating nor general election?

I would have listened if anyone had said a thing about what went on in MI and FL last August when sincerity of heart in the matter would have been indisputable. If Hillary had intervened at that time and spoke out against the exclusion instead of nodding her head and signing on the dotted line. I think the voters of MI and FL are being trivialized by those that feign concern for them now just because their side lost the nomination. Where were you last August.
 PhillyFellow

Joined: 4/9/2008
Msg: 1498
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/23/2008 9:05:56 AM
Sorry, didn't fix the web address for that site:

Tom In Paine: LETTER TO HOWARD DEAN AND THE SEATING OF FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN
Thursday, May 15, 2008
LETTER TO HOWARD DEAN AND THE SEATING OF FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN.
"The letter below has been sent to Howard Dean by the Democratic Women's Leaders, Every Vote Counts, organization (which can be found at COUNTTHEVOTES) as a follow up to a face to face meeting with Dean regarding the seating of Florida and Michigan and other issues.
"Dean acknowledged at the meeting, that the popular vote totals of Florida and Michigan were valid and that the issue of seating the delegates were a separate issue involving the DNC and the Rules Committee and did not reflect on the validity of the popular vote totals of both states. As of now, including the Florida and Michigan totals, and using my formula of apportioning the "uncommitted" line in Michigan of 39% by giving John Edwards the 14% of the vote he had received in other primaries and Obama 25%, ( which amounted to 149,010 votes) Clinton leads Obama in the popular vote by 25,016 votes. The delegates should be apportioned the same way.
"There are indications that a compromise is in the works regarding the seating of the Florida and Michigan delegates. Obama said in a speech the other day that he assured Michigan that "he would make sure" Michigan was seated, ( in typical overblown, grandiose and untrue fashion).
"With Dean acknowleding the obvious, that the raw vote totals in both states are valid, pressure needs to be put on the DNC to count ALL of the duly elected Florida and Michigan delegates. To punish 3 million voters and 15 million Clinton supporters and affecting the choices made for the fall, for what amounted to nothing more than a parking violation committed by state party leaders, would be like using a wrecking ball to swat a fly. With the expected collatoral damage."
http://tominpaine.blogspot.com/2008/05/letter-to-howard-dean-regarding-seating.html

This important because it would affirm Hillary's contention that she leads in the popular vote counts. Whenever she says this the mainstream press always claims, "but those votes don't count". Dean needs to state on the record that those votes do count and therefore Hillary does in fact have the lead in the popular vote.

The full letter written to Howard Dean from the "Count the Votes!" organization is printed at the bottom of that "Tom in Paine" page I linked.
In this letter to Dean, they mention that Dean told them those votes should count, so it seems unlikely they would have gotten this wrong when they are writing this letter to Dean.


PhillyFellow
 PhillyFellow

Joined: 4/9/2008
Msg: 1499
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/23/2008 9:27:33 AM
Frankly, Itechman, he was being generous in giving Obama even that. It was Obama's own choice to remove his name from the ballot. In some estimations he would get no votes for Michigan.
The superdelegates have to make their own choice on who they select to be the democratic candidate. There is no rule that it has to according to who has the larger pledged delegate. If it is to be according to the "will of the people" just as valid an argument can be made that it should be according to who wins the popular vote.

PhillyFellow
 spitfire6844

Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 1500
view profile
History
Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 5/23/2008 10:26:21 AM

I would have listened if anyone had said a thing about what went on in MI and FL last August when sincerity of heart in the matter would have been indisputable. If Hillary had intervened at that time and spoke out against the exclusion instead of nodding her head and signing on the dotted line. I think the voters of MI and FL are being trivialized by those that feign concern for them now just because their side lost the nomination. Where were you last August.


Agreed. Hillary is just playing all the angles like a true Machiavellian. Some people have two faces. Hillary has 5 or 6. She is a multi-tasker on crack. Hillary can praise Obama; criticize Obama; swear that she'll get the nomination; insist that she'll support Obama; promise to hold out until the FL./MI delegates are counted; and petition to be Obama's running mate----all in the space of a few days. It's amazing and ridiculous at the same time.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=apUvejwrj_bw&refer=worldwide
Page 60 of 98 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98
 
Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Why is Hillary losing? [Thread Closed]