|
|
|
|
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/15/2008 2:09:52 PM | Faith, spitfire was right that most Hillary supporters will vote along party lines and vote for Obama if he is the nominee. However, as in the example I gave above if the disaffected Hillary supporters that vote McCain only amounts to single digits it's still possible this will swing the election the other way.
From my reading of Hillary support forums there is a great deal of hostilty against Obama and the DNC because they feel she was treated badly. But I think an even greater feeling is the hostility against Obama himself. For these voters even if Hillary was on the ticket they still would not vote for Obama because of the character issues they feel disqualify him for president.
PhillyFellow | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/15/2008 2:45:44 PM | Here's that news report I mentioned that showed 8% of democrats crossing party lines and voting for Bush in 2004:
Grumbling Clinton supporters make Democrats nervous.
updated 11:58 a.m. EDT, Mon June 9, 2008
"In the modern era, the pledge of mass defections by disappointed primary voters isn't rare -- but it rarely has a major influence on election results. The number of voters who identify with a given party may shift dramatically over time -- but among that self-selected group, loyalty tends to be remarkably high, with greater than nine in 10 usually supporting their party's presidential nominee, according to exit polling over the past few presidential cycles.
"In 2004, despite similar anger from supporters of unsuccessful presidential candidate Howard Dean, 8 percent of Democrats supported Bush over Sen. John Kerry.
"And on most major issues, McCain's positions are completely at odds with those of the Democratic working class and women voters he's hoping to reach: in favor of the Iraq war and Bush's tax cuts, against abortion rights and health care policies favored by many Democrats.
"Obama advisers say they think the passion of the primary season will soon fade, and the party will unite around the senator from Illinois. But they've moved quickly to cement party unity: Last week, a thank you message -- and a plea for visitors to "show your support" for Clinton -- appeared on Obama's Web site."
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/09/clinton.supporters/index.html
I agree that most democrats will vote along party lines and vote for Obama if he is the nominee. But I don't agree the number who do not won't have an effect on the election. As I said the popular vote between Bush and Kerry was so close, that the 8% of democrats who voted for Bush very likely did push him over the top to win the election. And of course the now historically important "Reagan democrats" very certainly helped Reagan to be elected twice.
In the 2004 primaries Howard Dean won a paltry 167.5 total delegates, no where near the amount of support Hillary had. Actually I think the 8% of democrats who crossed party lines in 2004 had less to do with disaffected Dean supporters than it being mostly just moderate democrats who thought Kerry was too liberal.
Obama of course is the most liberal candidate ever offered for president so on that reason alone I think the number who cross party lines and vote republican will be higher than 8%. When you factor in the number of Hillary supporters who have a lingering dissatisfaction with the way Hillary has been treated by the democratic leadership I think the number of democrats who cross party lines who be significantly higher than 8%.
PhillyFellow | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/15/2008 4:27:15 PM |
A real team player would always provide a new ball.
Faith is right (as usual). In addition to providing a "new ball" or a new focus for the team, a good team player knows what his or her most effective role is. Hillary doesn't come across like a team player. Hillary was out of place and out of touch throughout this primary season. She never found her voice. The 18 million votes she got were merely a response to her name recognition and a hope for a return to the 90's. The fact is that Hillary never should have run in the 1st place. Both of her campaign managers (Patti Solis-Doyle and Maggie Williams) were initially opposed to her entering the race and had to be convinced that it wasn't futile. Their instincts were correct, and Hillary's instincts were wrong. Patti Solis-Doyle is now an adviser to the Obama campaign, by the way.
Hillary still has a chance to make a mark in the U.S. Senate, but her opportunity is fading fast. Working on health care or a number of other pressing issues there would perhaps be the best use of Hillary's talents. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/15/2008 4:38:16 PM | This is not the civil rights movement. The Hillary campaign is not protesting injustice to a group of people. This is the Hillary is hurt, so we are hurt campaign.
If the Hillaryites can not get pass this and will vote for McCain to prove a point (we do not like Obama), then so be it. In two are three years when we are in a depression do not complain.
This is looking more like ego than the good of the country. A real team player looks our for the good of the team even if it means them sitting on the bench. Did you see the movie the 'Great Debate' with Denzel.
Now, if he were like Clinton. He would not have allowed that young guy to take the team to Harvard and win, because he is the grown man. But, instead he stepped back and looked out for the overall team. They won, lead by a young man.
You guys truly make Hillary look bad. You guys are making her look very bad even in the eyes of the media. You are looking like Ron Paul people. Ron Paul refuses to endorse McCain. Her aggressive personality is now in her followers and that is why she did not win. But, if 4 more years of Bush is really what you think will be good payback to the Obama people and Obama, then so be it.  | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/15/2008 5:35:41 PM | "I agree the Hillaryites are starting to look like the kid who takes his ball back because he can not be in charge or starts loosing the game. If you remember, that kid did not stop the fun. A real team player would always provide a new ball and eventually that kid just watched from the sidelines."
Faith, I wonder if you can contemplate the shoe on the other foot? It was an exceptionally close race, but Obama lost. Feelings among Obama supporters were that the vote was tilted in Clintons favour because she's a white woman, and that rascist reporting skewed voters against their candidate.
I dont think many Obama supporters would just shrug and say, oh well - we lost, nothing can be done about it. I think they might be asking some pretty tough questions right about now.
Spitfire, as Phillyfellow points out, it doesn't have to be a lot of Clinton supporters who get behind McCain. A few will make a big difference. That's why I heartily suggest the Obama campaign start campaigning for those votes, and stop whining that all Clinton supporters didn't just blindly cross over to their side. You're going to have to win them over, and time's a-wastin.
I guess what might make Clinton supporters relatively happy is the knowledge that a vote for Obama secures Clinton a meaningful post in his government. From what I saw on here, the Hillary-bash-fest was in full, gleeful spin on the idea of her being VP, or anything else. Since Clinton supporters happen to think she was the better candidate, and their are almost as many of them as there are Obama supporters, you have to see that it is a bit of an insult to the intelligence of those voters to have the winning side summarily dismiss her considerable skill and experience. At the very least it's not likely to secure their vote. I guess you could call that vindictive - but you'd have some trouble determining which side it's coming from. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/15/2008 6:06:40 PM | easyoneverything
Vote for McCain and move on. We do not care about the threats. If you want to vote for McCain to prove a point. Then do so, I really do not care.
You guys do make her look bad and I am glad I voted the way I did. It is time for this forum to close . You and Philly should just exchange emails and console each other.
It was nice seeing you on some other sites were people are talking about the future and not the past.
Have a blessed day!! I am tired of the mudslinging. I am glad the Clinton/Obama era has ended.
You and Philly can start a crusade. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/15/2008 8:38:14 PM | Personally, I am ELATED that we have a bit of a hiatus from the mudslinging. And I agree with my colleagues that threatening to vote for a candidate whose agenda clearly departs sharply from those issues important to you -- because you feel the fellow democrat victorious in the primary contest is less deserving than your preferred candidate -- is spiteful, irrational, and self-defeating (of course I am not speaking to those who were voting for Hillary, although they only shared "half" of her ideologies  ).
Somewhere between 8%-10% of democrats (and an even greater percentage of African-Americans!) voted for Bush in '04, because they rallied behind his promise to get a constitutional amendment defining marriage as being between a man and a woman. I'd like to kick their @sses myself, but I'm confident that they've regretted THAT similar move over and over already. Once he was able to get that percentage on his side, he (with the help of the Diebold Corporation -- the film, "Hacking Democracy." Rent it.) was able to win the nomination.
At this stage of the game, I doubt that there are many of us who don't know who will be voting for in November. Just kn0w that, if the "protest" vote somehow manages to get McCain into office, we'll ALL continue getting ravaged, and Obama will win in 2012.
I can understand Clinton supporters' anger and disappointment that things did not turn out as they wished or believe it properly should've, but that's what we have these intra-party contests for! The winner will not always be the one we want it to be. But, under our two party system, you pick the gal who is most in-line with your preferred candidate. And that ain't McCain! | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/15/2008 8:38:41 PM |
Vote for McCain and move on. We do not care about the threats. If you want to vote for McCain to prove a point. Then do so, I really do not care.
LOL, it will be more than Philly and easyoneverything. For one it will be me, and there will be millions more.
Not a matter of moving on. When I realized Hillary wasn't going to win, I *did* move on -- to McCain. There are many reasons which I've mentioned here before.
I don't need anyone to console me. I'm a big girl. Hillary's a big girl. If she still wants to, she can run in 2012 after McCain's term. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/15/2008 9:02:49 PM |
Even among rabid Obama supporters, there is general acknowledgement that he is not as good at debating as he is at orating. I can't recall anyone saying Obama definitively won any debates, unless it was his campaign advisors.
I'm not sure where that "general acknowledgment" comes from, as most Obama supporters -- rabid or impassive -- seem to think that he debates every bit as well as he orates. Moreover, I don't think it would be too hard to find others who believe he won any debates. I don't know ... let's try:
http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=1296 (IA)
http://www.wyff4.com/politics/13208381/detail.html (SC)
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/debates/scorecard/results.html (NH)
http://www.buckeyestateblog.com/node/7291/results (OH)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18335732/ (SC)
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/01/31/who-won-the-democratic-debate-2/ (CO)
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/01/21/jan-21-debate-who-won-the-democratic-debate/ (SC)
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/debates/ (multiple) | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/15/2008 11:34:02 PM | Here's an interesting link for those who have supported Hillary Clinton in the past. I haven't had a chance to check it out in its entirety but I thought it was intriguing that passions are obviously intense and still strong enough that women and men are actually joining this group in support of John McCain over Barack Obama. And when you read some of their latest posts and comments, it would appear that there are a significant number of people who are joining. Hmm. Something to think about..
Welcome to the National Organization of Ex-Hillary Clinton Supporters for John McCain
http://www.hcsfjm.com/index.html | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/16/2008 12:25:04 AM | Small, organized revolts here and there among tiny splinter-groups of ex-Hillary supporters are expected. It's understandable based on their anger and disappointment. Those supporters will be reminded often before November that Hillary's policies are dissimilar to John McCain's policies. Her policies are similar to those of Barack Obama.
Hillary's supporters will overwhelmingly support the Democratic nominee. There will be a handful who will vote for Ralph Nader or Bob Barr because of agreement on 1 or 2 issues with those candidates. Less than 1% may decide to stay home on Election Day or to vote for John McCain. A Hillary supporter who votes for McCain out of spite would be voting for the following:
1. Long-term commitment of American troops in Iraq
2. Pro-life, anti-abortion hardline stance
3. Avowed effort to overturn Roe Vs. Wade
4. Appointment of "originalist" Supreme Court Justices
5. Privatization of Social Security within 10 years
6. Constitutional Amendment defining marriage
7. Privatized, exclusive health care through unregulated, individual health plans
Anyone who supports the McCain policies listed above would never have been a Hillary supporter in the first place. It's irrational for a disappointed Hillary supporter to endorse McCain's policies merely because of an outcome between the two like-minded Democratic forerunners in the primaries. It doesn't make sense. Even to a pissed-off, disaffected voter---that kind of crossover makes no sense.
Ex-supporters of Hillary Clinton have a number of different options. This is not a Hobson's choice. Everything indicates that they will not vote for McCain in November.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080612/pl_afp/usvotewomen | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/16/2008 12:35:52 AM | I have just gotten tired of them crying and saying.
Because she did not win, we will vote for McCain. Please do not dare me, because I know I will. I do not care about the big picture and the difference in points of view. I am mad and hurt. It was not fair, and that is the most important thing to me. Not.....
1. Long-term commitment of American troops in Iraq
2. Pro-life, anti-abortion hardline stance
3. Avowed effort to overturn Roe Vs. Wade
4. Appointment of "originalist" Supreme Court Justices
5. Privatization of Social Security within 10 years
6. Constitutional Amendment defining marriage
7. Privatized, exclusive health care through unregulated, individual health plans
Just my feelings. So screw America. I only want to live in Clintonville. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/16/2008 1:36:31 AM |
Anyone who supports the McCain policies listed above would never have been a Hillary supporter in the first place. It's irrational for a disappointed Hillary supporter to endorse McCain's policies merely because of an outcome between the two like-minded Democratic forerunners in the primaries. It doesn't make sense. Even to a pissed-off, disaffected voter---that kind of crossover makes no sense.
You just don't get it, do you? Nor do they...
We were/are the more "conservative" of the Democrats. We liked Hillary Clinton for who she is, her past accomplishments, her husband and his wonderful presidency, "the good ole' Clinton days," and a host of other reasons. This list you just ran down doesn't sound half bad to me..
1. Long-term commitment of American troops in Iraq
2. Pro-life, anti-abortion hardline stance
3. Avowed effort to overturn Roe Vs. Wade
4. Appointment of "originalist" Supreme Court Justices
5. Privatization of Social Security within 10 years
6. Constitutional Amendment defining marriage
7. Privatized, exclusive health care through unregulated, individual health plans
You know, we should have you campaign for John McCain because you've mentioned some really important differences that aren't entirely negative at all. Supporting pro-life versus late term or partial birth abortion is noble, imho. It's the only HUMANE choice. And I see nothing wrong with an ammendment that defines marriage in a more traditional way because marriage has always been traditional and I see nothing wrong with continuing that. I'm sick and fed up with the decline of morality I see occurring daily in this country. We need some of the more traditional Republican/Conservative values to take hold again in this country. It is terrifyingly off track. I also don't see a problem with privatizing social security and I'm definitely not for big government.
While I love Hillary Clinton and deeply admire her, I didn't agree with all of her politics. Primarily, in the past I was a Bill Clinton supporter but Hillary is moderate enough that I felt compelled to vote for her, in hopes of also getting Bill back in some form or another. Now that they are no longer an option, I see a lot to favor about the policies of John McCain. I also desire a strong military presence and a man who has the experience to command it.
If you understand that Clinton supporters are a mixture of both liberal and conservative, perhaps you will finally understand why we are not turned off by John McCain. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/16/2008 3:23:29 AM | | If you think those above John McCain issues don't sound so bad to you...you haven't read his entire stance on those issues and are not thinking about the effects those 'changes' would have on our country. Hillary was at the other end of the spectrum...whether you consider yourself a conservative Democrat or not, Hillary is not. Compare Hillary's vs. McCain's voting records or even their websites on those issues. See what you come up with. As one of our more staunch McCain supporters has pointed out dozens of times, Hillary votes with her party in the 90 percentile range...high 90's. I'm kind of reeling here that someone who claims herself a "lifelong Democrat" would even think of siding with McCain when it comes to those issues you yourself said didn't sound too bad. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/16/2008 4:43:20 AM |
If Barack Obama is put in a position of power he will institute Chicago-style corruption at a national scale.
June 12, 2008
Obama moves DNC operations to Chicago.
"In a major shakeup at the Democratic National Committee -- and a departure from tradition -- large parts of the committee's operations are relocating to Chicago to be fully integrated with the Obama campaign.
"The DNC's political department, housed in Washington, D.C., will be dramatically rebuilt, with staffers offered a choice of moving to Chicago, joining state operations, or staying in Washington, DNC spokeswoman Karen Finney said.
"But the power will clearly be shifting to a centralized Chicago hub.
"The DNC's key role in coordinating political operations with state parties is expected to largely be taken over and overseen by Obama's senior staff in Chicago, state party officials said."
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Obama_moves_DNC_operations_to_Chicago.html
Moving to Chicago makes it much easier to bring all his corrupt cronies on board.
Mayor Daley, anyone? Gov. Rod Blagojevich, anyone?
And it makes it easier for the DNC membership to be likewise corrupted.
Just hand out the payoffs. That's how things are done in Chicago politics.
PhillyFellow | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/16/2008 4:48:41 AM | Someone on the Hillary support forum wrote about this take over of the DNC by Obama's Chicago mob in an amusing way:
MOVE THE REST OF THE MOB FAMILY TO CHICARGO SO I CAN KEEP AN EYE ON THEM AND MAKE SURE THERE NOT SKIMMING THE MONEY.
ITS ALL MINE. IT ALL COMES HERE TO CHICARGO, IM GOING TO GET ALL
THE DNC MONEY, PEOPLE, HERE, SO I CAN NOW TAKE OVER THE WORLD.
NO BODY DOES ANY THING WITH OUT THE BOSS APPROVAL.
YOU GOT IT, NOW EVERYONE JUST SHUT UP AND DO AS I SAY.
AFTER WE GET ALL THE DNC OVER HERE, TELL THEM TO GET THE CLINTON SUPPORTER TO FALL IN LINE TOO.
GET ALL HER PEOPLE AND GET THEM OUT THERE MAKING THEM FALL
IN LINE. USE ROW VS WADE THAT WILL DO IT TELL THEM ANY THING
I DON'T CARE JUST GET THERE MONEY GET THERE VOTE!
GET DEAN OVER HERE, I DON'T WANT HIM SCREWING THIS UP.
lol. I can easily visualize "Big Al" Capone barking out those same types of orders.
PhillyFellow | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/16/2008 5:00:07 AM | | I am a very conservative person. I am not even a democrat. I was raised in a republican family. I am pro-life. I will never give myself the title democrate. I was one of the many voters they were concernced with. I have many republican friends that voted for Obama because we can not have another 4 years in this manner. I have stated that from the beginning. So, stop with that it is making me ill. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/16/2008 6:45:33 AM |
If you think those above John McCain issues don't sound so bad to you...you haven't read his entire stance on those issues and are not thinking about the effects those 'changes' would have on our country. Hillary was at the other end of the spectrum...whether you consider yourself a conservative Democrat or not, Hillary is not.
Apparently you are not listening to the many Hillary supporters who now support McCain. We are more conservative, and didn't agree with all of Hillary's positions in the first place. There is no candidate with which I personally agree on all the issues -- and I agree with McCain on as many of them as I agree with Clinton.
First of all, on this list quoted below, NO president is going to be able to do these things (except for number 7, which requires NO CHANGE -- it's our current health plan). If you haven't noticed we have three branches of government, and nothing happens with out advice and consent from the other two.
John McCain will be serving one term. If the Democrats don't screw it up again, go back to winnter take all, and don't have the dog and pony show they did this time, a strong contender might emerge. At the current time Democrats control both Houses of Congress, and it's very likely to stay that way for another two years at the least.
1. Long-term commitment of American troops in Iraq
That's going to happen regardless of WHO is the President. Bill Clinton was president for 8 years, nonetheless we had 50,000 troops in Kuwait and occupied 1/3 of the country for the entire time he was in office. In fact, we've had troops in Korea continuously since we were engaged in the Korean war in the 1950s.
2. Pro-life, anti-abortion hardline stance
Hasn't happened in 8 years of Bush, what makes you think it will happen under McCain? Two thirds of the country is pro-choice.
3. Avowed effort to overturn Roe Vs. Wade
4. Appointment of "originalist" Supreme Court Justices
I'm lumping these together, because 4 would have to happen for an attempt at 3. Two points.
First, the only liberal Supreme Court justice likely to retire in the next four years is John Paul Stevens; he's 88. Justices tend to die in office, or step down only when they are very ill. Sandra Day O'Connor -- the ONLY living retired Supreme Court justice -- stepped down because her husband had Alzheimer's Disease and she needed to take care of him -- that is unusual. Stevens is in good health, but he's old, and it's not out of the realm of possibility that he could die in the next four years.
Second, in order for a Supreme Court justice to take office, he or she needs the approval of the Senate. Remember Bork? Even though he was qualified, he was not approved because of his very conservative stance. In a Democratic Senate, an "originalist" or very conservative justice is not going to get the nod. If memory doesn't serve you, that justice who did get approved after the Bork vote was David Souter, who is a swing voting justice -- not a conservative at all.
5. Privatization of Social Security within 10 years
Not going to happen for the same reason as above.
6. Constitutional Amendment defining marriage
This is getting sillier and sillier. You do know how a Constitutional Amendement is passed, don't you? First it has to be passed by TWO-THIRDS of the House and the Senate, and then ratified by THREE-QUARTERS of the states. What do you think the odds are of such an amendment even getting through Congress? I'd say less than zero.
Oh and for the purposes of your history lesson, an amendment can also be passed by a Constitutional convention called by two-third of state legislatures, and then ratified by three-quarters of the states. However, this method has never been used. All 27 Constitutional amendments have been passed using the method number 1 above.
7. Privatized, exclusive health care through unregulated, individual health plans
This is what we have now. It doesn't take any action to continue our current health insurance plans. What you're probably talking about is starting socialized medicine, something with which I strongly disagree. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/16/2008 9:00:16 AM | Spitfire I think the point they are trying to make is Obama was way left, Clinton more centre and MCcain way right. You've removed the centre and so a certain number of votes are going to swing either way.
The superdelegates believed that Clinton supporters would get behind Obama "for the sake of the party." It was, perhaps a miscalculation? But calling people stupid for their political beliefs is not going to win you any votes. In fact, it's just, well ... you know. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/16/2008 9:59:30 AM | Easyoneverything -- you summarized my position perfectly. It's interesting that Obama supporters assume that when you take a position against him that you have to be angry, irrational or just plain stupid. I'm hardly any of those things, and I only take positions after careful, non emotional consideration.
I'm voting for McCain because I think he's the best person for the job after Hillary Clinton, who's no longer in the race. My positions on the issues always have been somewhat in the middle between Clinton and McCain, and so I feel comfortable voting for either of them.
For many, many reasons already stated I do not feel comfortable voting for Obama.
I have noticed, at least in these forums, it's the Obama supporters calling Hillary, McCain and their supporters names, but I haven't seen much of that the other way around. To me that indicates it is the Obama supporters who are making the emotional decision rather than either Hillary or McCain supporters. People who have something to say, say it. People who don't resort to name calling and insults. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/16/2008 1:25:10 PM | | I am either not voting or voting for McCain, my democratic friends are totally outraged by my decision, I feel that with McCain I know what I have, with Obama, I don't and that simply scares the sh1t out of me... | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/16/2008 6:45:52 PM | YAY - two more votes for Obama! At this rate it will be 3012 before he gets the nod!
Just kidding. It's great Obama is pulling in the big ticket boys - really. But voters are a different kettle. He's still going to have to win their support. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/16/2008 11:48:49 PM | We were/are the more "conservative" of the Democrats. We liked Hillary Clinton for who she is, her past accomplishments, her husband and his wonderful presidency, "the good ole' Clinton days," and a host of other reasons. This list you just ran down doesn't sound half bad to me..
Spitfire I think the point they are trying to make is Obama was way left, Clinton more centre and MCcain way right. You've removed the centre and so a certain number of votes are going to swing either way.
The above two quotes are eye-opening. People need to realize that Hillary is not a "center-left" politician. Maybe that's why the five percent of Hillary supporters who look like disgruntled diehards are considering McCain. We need to be brutally clear about this: Bill Clinton was a "center-left", moderate Democrat. Hillary is not. Hillary is considerably to the left of her husband on most issues, and is even to the left of Obama on health care and gun issues. Again, Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton are not interchangeable. Everyone should have understood that years ago, but you need to get it now. Hillary is on the Left, period. Unlike Obama (or Bill Clinton himself), Hillary is not a good facilitator, nor a good strategist. That leaves us with policies (Hillary's) that are incompatible with a predominantly conservative viewpoint--- without the political skill which might otherwise make for an attractive candidate to conservatives and moderates. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/17/2008 9:01:01 AM | Spitfire:
“People need to realize that Hillary is not a "center-left" politician. Hillary is on the Left, period.”
But she voted for the war? That seems more than a little incongruous to me.
“Again, Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton are not interchangeable. Everyone should have understood that years ago, but you need to get it now.”
Yes, I think I get that. It would be hard for two people who have been married as long as they have been not to share some political views – at least I think most people marry someone who generally shares their viewpoints? But Hillary certainly didn’t share all of them, and in the intervening years since his Presidency, time and other circumstances have conspired to give everyone a 20-20 hindsight view. I’m not sure Bill would duplicate every decision he made or every stance he took 15 years ago, knowing what we all know now. So I would agree it is inaccurate to suggest that she is a carbon copy of her husband. I would go one further and say that even Bill Clinton 2008 is not a carbon copy of Bill Clinton 1996.
“Unlike Obama (or Bill Clinton himself), Hillary is not a good facilitator, nor a good strategist. That leaves us with policies (Hillary's) that are incompatible with a predominantly conservative viewpoint--- without the political skill which might otherwise make for an attractive candidate to conservatives and moderates.”
Well that’s a grand, sweeping opinion and I don’t share it. Prior to the media spin during this primary cycle, the general view was that Clinton had facilitated very well as Senator from New York, and that she had earned a deserved reputation for crossing party lines to get things done, and had more than a handful of accomplishments, and a good deal more than the junior senator from Illinois who copied her every move, voting exactly as she did. I may be erroneous in my assumption that he copied her EVERY time – I’m sure Montreal Guy will know the answer to that one, but I never got the sense that Obama was acting out of any sense of wisdom or experience, more that he was, well - just acting. | |
|
| Why is Hillary losing?
Posted: 6/17/2008 8:57:13 PM | http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/31/AR2006123101004.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15920730/
http://www.rumorsdaily.com/2008/01/21/troeltsch-examines-clinton-vs-obama-on-voting-record-differences/
http://www.votesmart.org/index.htm
Oh, incidentally ... for those who vehemently oppose "partial birth abortions," do know that both Obama and Clinton are on the record rejecting an outright ban on the procedure. That's one of those 90%+ issues where the two senators have the same position and/or voting record. | |
|
|
| Page 95 of 98
|
58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98 |
|
Home
login 
