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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 5/16/2008 9:40:53 PM | the original poster asked:
shouldn't one have enough decency to ask why/how there on it??? I'll agree with her, that a person shouldn't be judged by anyone who doesn't know their individual circumstances.
I'll admit that I can be a judgemental prlck. I judge people all the time (I'm aware that it's a character fault of mine)
But, I won't judge people based on very broad generalizations, without knowing their individual circumstances.
Just knowing that a person may be on welfare does not give anyone enough information to pass judgement on that person.
There could be any number of reasons why the person has had to rely on welfare.
-Perhaps the person has suffered from a serious illness, or perhaps a mental illness, that's left them unable to work for an extended period of time?
-Maybe the person has just fled an abussive marriage, has to care for young children, and has few job skills, and no other means of support at the moment?
If I get to know someone, and then determine that they're just worthless and lazy and enjoy leeching of the tax-payers, I'll likely judge them negatively.
But, I won't make such a judgement, without knowing the person's specific circumstances.
Perhaps they've just been unfortunate? | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 5/16/2008 9:43:14 PM | I also think that many of us, who have never been on welfare, may also be a little too guilty sometimes of recieving support from others (such as family members) that the person on welfare didn't have the advantage of recieving.
If a person is a well-off doctor or lawyer, because his parents paid every cent of his way through medical school or law school: Does that person have the right to look down on the inner city person who may not have the means to go to univesity?
If a person is a succesfull businesman, because his parents gave, or loaned, him the money to get started in business: is he really a better person than the person who had no family members who were able to give them such support.
Can any of us pass a negative judgment on the person who has a young child with a very serious illness, just because we've been fortunate enough to have never been in that situation ourself? | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 5/17/2008 12:32:34 AM | Yes lizbeth, I can tell you have much experience in playing the system based on the way you phrase your posts>>>>posted by padawan 05/14
^^^I will not confirm nor deny that I recieve some kind of social assistance from the government. This is not a stage for personal attacks. You need to learn how to debate the topic Padawan....not the person...
My status is irrelevant really....unless one cannot debate the real topic with out assigning blame to others.
Ask why a young single mom with no education and popping out kids by five different dads while having no desire to improve and be different?? You really need to ask WHY?? Please get it through your thick cranium ... we do not want to help a person like that.>>>>>padawan 05/14
^^^^^^You have not asked any questions of that single Mom...You Padwan have already taken it upon yourself to answer the "WHY" in your assumptions about anyone needing help from the social system. Your extreme examples are indicitive of your inability to be anything other than predjiduce towards people who need a hand up in life.
The child didn't make a conscious choice to be poor, but does that mean taxpayers must allow them to cheat the system??>>>padawan 05/14
^^^That above sentance makes me sick to my stomach. It is always the arrogance in a person that recognizes a problem and searches for blame before finding a soloution to it.
I've often wondered where the moral compass had disappeared to for the welfare cheaters. Perhaps you can explain that one lizbeth??>>>padawan 05/14
^^^ Stupid question padawan...most cheaters have no moral compass....ooppss stupid me...I just realized that was a cleverly disguised dig.. aimed directly towards me...
WOW....do I ever feel silly now!! | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 5/17/2008 3:59:40 AM | If social workers have half a brain, they KNOW which ones are the scammers
earthen ... I don't think much of social workers anyway and do they really have that much ... half a brain?? 
I would like to see two separate programs -
One for those who are making an effort to make it off the system
And one for those who everyone knows are just there to milk it to the max
You more generous than I. The ones who are there just to milk the system without any desire to improve should be cut off ... no excuses and no appeals. 
But, I won't judge people based on very broad generalizations, without knowing their individual circumstances.
If I get to know someone, and then determine that they're just worthless and lazy and enjoy leeching of the tax-payers, I'll likely judge them negatively.
But, I won't make such a judgement, without knowing the person's specific circumstances.
Perhaps they've just been unfortunate?
Ferruginous, many posters have already specified what circumstances would cause them to judge welfare users harshly ... specifically, those who make poor life choices and are there through their own stupidity with no desire to improve themselves and see taxpayers as the easy way out. We keep going around in circles on this one because people don't read the thread and just jump on here saying we shouldn't judge unless we know specific circumstances. We already know that. 
I also think that many of us, who have never been on welfare, may also be a little too guilty sometimes of recieving support from others (such as family members) that the person on welfare didn't have the advantage of recieving
Had neither ... never been on welfare and no support from family in my life so what are you getting at??
If a person is a well-off doctor or lawyer, because his parents paid every cent of his way through medical school or law school: Does that person have the right to look down on the inner city person who may not have the means to go to univesity?
If a person is a succesfull businesman, because his parents gave, or loaned, him the money to get started in business: is he really a better person than the person who had no family members who were able to give them such support
Didn't have any of this either ... I'm not a doctor or lawyer and never had post secondary education paid for by parents. Never had any sort of loan to start a business ... so again, your point being?? You're describing very ideal circumstances but not many people have had such ideals in their lives and still stayed off welfare.
I will not confirm nor deny that I recieve some kind of social assistance from the government. This is not a stage for personal attacks. You need to learn how to debate the topic Padawan....not the person...
My status is irrelevant really....unless one cannot debate the real topic with out assigning blame to others
Like you've been really debating the topic yourself lizbeth. Your posts have been nothing more than vague preachings. And no one care about your personal situation ... you just come across as someone on public assistance such that you defend it so vehemently for all.
Ask why a young single mom with no education and popping out kids by five different dads while having no desire to improve and be different?? You really need to ask WHY?? Please get it through your thick cranium ... we do not want to help a person like that >>>>>padawan 05/14 ^^^^^^You have not asked any questions of that single Mom...You Padwan have already taken it upon yourself to answer the "WHY" in your assumptions about anyone needing help from the social system. Your extreme examples are indicitive of your inability to be anything other than predjiduce towards people who need a hand up in life
And why should I be asking any questions of that single mom??? The specifics have already define just the kind of person she is. What more is there to ask in that scenario?? Continuing to get pregnant from different men who don't give a $hit about the kids they're conceiving begs questioning as to why??? Your porch light is dimmer than I thought lizbeth. You only wish to ask useless questions in order to pander to such welfare seekers.
The child didn't make a conscious choice to be poor, but does that mean taxpayers must allow them to cheat the system?? >>>padawan 05/14 ^^^That above sentance makes me sick to my stomach. It is always the arrogance in a person that recognizes a problem and searches for blame before finding a soloution to it
So you're saying it's perfectly OK if that child grows up to cheat the system as their parents have done?? Your misplaced sympathy makes me barf everytime I read it.
I've often wondered where the moral compass had disappeared to for the welfare cheaters. Perhaps you can explain that one lizbeth?? >>>padawan 05/14 ^^^ Stupid question padawan...most cheaters have no moral compass....ooppss stupid me...I just realized that was a cleverly disguised dig.. aimed directly towards me
Exactly. Don't mention people's moral compass when you know that cheaters have none.
WOW....do I ever feel silly now!!
Only now??????
^^^wow!! you make it sound sooo easy tb....geeze...do you think that the poor people know about all this free "stuff"?
If "poor" people have friends also on welfare ... why is it so hard to believe they know about the "free stuff"?? You lizbeth make it sound like it's all some government secret designed to keep "poor" people in the dark. TB didn't say it was "easy" ... only that resources are available to get people off of welfare in a reasonable length of time ... unless they are the cheaters who have no wish to leave welfare.
I swear, it's a wonder that half of Canadians haven't gone on welfare so far...free education...free living expenses while in school...AND free childcare to those who have made the "mistake" of having children?
All the ones who have made the "mistake" of having children are already in it for all the "free stuff". Those who don't get such "freebies" are the ones who've made proper choices and thus don't require a helping hand.
You are ignorant in the structure of how the system works if you believe all one has to do is "ask" in order to get all the required services needed to help a person get a hand-up. If only it were as easy as what you have laid out in your post..then we wouldn't be having this discussion
Again TB was outlining what is available in terms of government services. She was not debating the "hows and whatnots" of obtaining it. And this discussion isn't about the resources available to help people better their lives ... it's been about people cheating the system and being judged on that ... but there you go again lizbeth, diverting the debate. You're good at diversion to conceal your own inadequacies.
I could go on and on...but maybe you also don't get the real picture...or perhaps you choose to believe the picture that isn't reflective of what is reality...
You have already gone on and on ... without adding any substance to the thread so please spare us of anymore puke catalyst. Perhaps the opposite is true: TB does get the real picture ... while you're hiding behind a veil of illusion. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 5/17/2008 5:56:35 AM | Pad, you're a doll - thank you for saving me all that typing! 
Lizbeth, I never said any of it was easy but then again, life isn't easy either.
If someone is welfare then they have an obligation to do everything in their power, use ever option available, to get off welfare and better themselves ASAP. If they are not abusing the system, they need to be asking their caseworker “what can I do to get off of welfare” and find out what programs and assistance are available to help them become a member of the working class, contributing to society. Those folks who are not abusing the system will have no problem doing everything they can to rejoin the work force as quickly as possible. The caseworks will give them the tools they need to help themselves. If those receiving assistance truly need temporary help, they will use these tools to the best of the ability to better themselves and their situation.
The abusers on the other hand will come up with tons and tons of excuses why they can't find the tools and can't use those tools, can’t get off welfare and why they are entitled to the free money that those of us who work our butts off for provide.
There is a huge difference. I have never, ever had a problem with those who need a hand up. I have a huge problem with abusers, thieves, cheaters and those who feel that they are entitled to be supported and owe nothing in return.
You clearly miss the point time and again.
Lizbeth, please learn how to use the quote feature here on POF. You posts are difficult to read without them. It is a cool feature that really makes your threads easier to read. There are directions on it right next to the box you use to post in and there is also a thread that lets you practice.
~tb~ | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 5/17/2008 6:00:01 AM |
AND free childcare to those who have made the "mistake" of having children?
I NEVER said anyone made a mistake having children. If you are going to quote me or blame me for saying something, get it right and don't try putting negative words in my mouth.
My children are a blessing and they are two of my greatest accomplishments in my lifetime. I believe all parents feel this way about their children. And those that don't . . . well I have no clue why.
Now, if you feel children are a mistake, I really feel sorry for you. ~tb~ | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 5/17/2008 6:10:46 AM |
You are ignorant in the structure of how the system works if you believe all one has to do is "ask" in order to get all the required services needed to help a person get a hand-up. If only it were as easy as what you have laid out in your post..then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I could go on and on...but maybe you also don't get the real picture...or perhaps you choose to believe the picture that isn't reflective of what is reality... Give me a break.
How can you delude yourself into believing that the information is inaccessible to those who are managing to find miniscule loopholes to avoid ever having to go out and earn a living?
They are prolific enough to research in depth the various additional monies available to them through welfare, why not hold them to the standard of researching the options available to them which would eventually have them out working and being self-sustaining by their own labour?
Oh, that's right. It's not working that's so desirable to people abusing the welfare system, it's the free money that you guys want. My bad... I actually forgot for a moment that striving to better oneself isn't the objective here... 
I could also go on and on, but perhaps you aren't interested in the real picture. Simply the image you wish to see in order to justify the continued abuse of a system which is designed to assist, not support. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:39:06 AM | Ferruginous, many posters have already specified what circumstances would cause them to judge welfare users harshly ... I was responding to the specific question that was asked in the opening post. That is how these forums are meant to work, aren't they?
I was not responding to the numerous troll posts, bashing, off-topic commentary and flame wars that made up the 20+ pages which followed the opening post.
Had neither ... never been on welfare and no support from family in my life so what are you getting at?? ummm..... I wasn't trying to "get" at you.
I just made a very general comment, in response to the opening post. That comment certainly wasn't directed at you, or any other specific poster.
I'm not certain why you felt it was directed at you??? Perhaps you just responded to it, as if it was directed at you, in an attempt to goad someone else into a petty little flame war??? Go troll someone else. I won't waste any time acknowledging any other response you make to a post of mine. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 5/17/2008 11:46:27 AM | well Pad. I'm sorry to hear you don't value all people the same. I understand why you don't given your reasoning but I honestly believe that we are all equal in every situation, that we all contribute in some necessary way, and that we all have the same rights to the resources available.
I think that if you're inclined to be an acedemic, athlete, labourer, whatever... that the chance to do what you enjoy, and are good at to the best of your ability is not only your right, it is also your priviledge and your duty to mankind. As long as you do this with passion and conviction then you should always have a place at the table. Clearly, the current western standard doesn't easily suport this notion, but anything is possible.
I understand why that might seem like an abstract concept to some but I honestly believe that this ideal, Utopian as it may seem, is the key to the survival and advancement of our species, and that anything that creates a divide between us should be shunned. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 5/17/2008 11:59:08 AM |
I understand why that might seem like an abstract concept to some but I honestly believe that this ideal, Utopian as it may seem, is the key to the survival and advancement of our species, and that anything that creates a divide between us should be shunned. It is only ourselves who create a divide. If someone wishes to succeed in life, then they will find a means and a venue to do so...
In your concept of a utopian society, very few would be slaving away to support the masses since drive and ambition would be moot. Neither would get one further ahead in life.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Drugs kill valuable brain cells... | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 5/17/2008 1:51:07 PM | Paying someone 2 to 3 times as much as someone else to do any task while others struggle is just plain ignorance and greed.
Agreed! 
I'm in retail and I enjoy what I do but for what we have to put up with we don't get paid nearly enough
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 5/18/2008 2:20:40 AM | Pad, you're a doll - thank you for saving me all that typing!
No problem TB.
Lizbeth, I never said any of it was easy but then again, life isn't easy either
Ahh, but people like lizbeth want life to be an easy walk in the park ... most welfare cheaters think the same way. What maximum benefit can they get from the least amount of energy output??
Lizbeth, please learn how to use the quote feature here on POF. You posts are difficult to read without them
Again, TB, that would require a desire and effort on the person.
They are prolific enough to research in depth the various additional monies available to them through welfare, why not hold them to the standard of researching the options available to them which would eventually have them out working and being self-sustaining by their own labour?
Excellent psssst, I couldn't have said it better myself.
I was responding to the specific question that was asked in the opening post.
I was not responding to the numerous troll posts, bashing, off-topic commentary and flame wars that made up the 20+ pages which followed the opening post
A quote from the OP:
why are so many having issues with people on welfare??
i feel its an issue that will keep getting worse over time and its not right to judge ppl just because they don't work
Responding as you did to the OP didn't offer any addition to what was already said in Post1. You simply agreed with the OP's position, nothing more.
The "troll" posts (as you called them) were really people's very specific reasons why they judge people on welfare who don't work. If you had taken the time to read them, you would've known that. But I guess it's easier to simply acknowledge the OP and dismiss all the valid reasons put forth and claim it to be troll posts, bashing, off-topic commentary and flame war.
Had neither ... never been on welfare and no support from family in my life so what are you getting at?? ummm..... I wasn't trying to "get" at you
I didn't imply you were trying to "get" at me. I needed to understand the reasoning for your views ... that life's inequities are what led people to rely on welfare ... while I gave you very specific examples of myself not having such equities and still managed to stay off welfare.
The problem is that you saw my post as goading you which is a false assumption.
well Pad. I'm sorry to hear you don't value all people the same. I understand why you don't given your reasoning but I honestly believe that we are all equal in every situation, that we all contribute in some necessary way, and that we all have the same rights to the resources available
Chemical, you're right that I don't value all people equally. We were created equal as human beings ... I don't deny the fact. However, a person's character also make up who they are. The equality breaks down when that character is a tarnished one.
I value those who have sound judgment and exhaust every effort to help themselves before seeking public assistance. Once public assistance is granted, I expect them to see it as a temporary measure ... not a way of life.
As TB illustrated in her posts, everyone does have the same right to resources available. But they also have the obligation to use said resources as a means of improvement. If not, then the resources have been wasted.
I think that if you're inclined to be an acedemic, athlete, labourer, whatever... that the chance to do what you enjoy, and are good at to the best of your ability is not only your right, it is also your priviledge and your duty to mankind. As long as you do this with passion and conviction then you should always have a place at the table
I had also agreed with you on my previous post that people should gravitate to doing what they love and enjoy. I disagreed with the notion of pay equality.
Myself, I work in the electronics field. Should I be paid the same rate as a surgeon with specialized education and skills who might one day save your life?? Of course not. Such positions are worth far more than what I have to offer.
Utopian as it may seem, is the key to the survival and advancement of our species, and that anything that creates a divide between us should be shunned
Within a utopian society, we wouldn't be debating about welfare cheaters because there would be none. Everyone would make intelligent and proper choices ... making every effort to reach their maximum potential ... never seeking the easy way out and realizing that some professions are indeed worth more on a monetary scale.
Paying someone 2 to 3 times as much as someone else to do any task while others struggle is just plain ignorance and greed Agreed! I'm in retail and I enjoy what I do but for what we have to put up with we don't get paid nearly enough
If the pay isn't what you expect, you are free to acquire the necessary education in order to get the job that pays more. That's why we live in a capitalistic society where ambition is rewarded ... in contrast to Communist societies where the system is geared towards killing that ambition. In such a Communist system, why work twice as hard when your extra effort is absorbed into the system to hand out to the one making half the effort????
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