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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/4/2008 12:08:34 PM | This solution, while good in theory, is difficult to enforce.
I think the primary problem is that many are dead-beat dads and the welfare system does not tend to go looking to them to pitch in and help raise their children.
Given that often times water seeks it own level, if the father is also on assistance, it is very hard to take blood from a turnip.
To the best of my knowledge, here in Canada, going after the father is one of the main goals. The child support is then deducted from the cheque much the same as any other income is.
It is hard to come up with a fool proof system that allows only those in need to benefit.
I still say it is better to have a some abuse it rather than have the genuinely needy ones suffer. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/4/2008 1:25:22 PM | 123carrie, the big difference between men and women, and why the woman should be sterilized is that yes, it takes two people to make a baby, but when the woman has that kid even though she can't afford it (yet made the decision to have risky sex), SHE is the one going on welfare, not the man. what are you going to do, sterilize all the men who don't make a set amount of money just so that if they do have sex, they won't make babies? the biggest problem with welfare is women who are already single mothers and on it are having MORE children. you have to stop the bleeding at some point, and sterilizing random men probably won't fix that problem as quickly.
oh, and as for dead beat fathers and whatnot. its the mother's choice to request child support. the system isn't going to go looking for men who the women don't want to be found, or simply can't find because they don't even know who's child it is. but if you are a woman who has a child, and know's the father, all you have to do is go down to welfare office and ask them to get the ball rolling. the big thing right now is for women to wait for the magic 8. by 8 years of age, the back child support is over 10k. they'd rather suffer for those 8 years w/out the money so that they can try to get the 8 years in one lump sum, kinda like winning the lottery. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/4/2008 2:16:36 PM | what get's me is its not just warefare or ss its are goverment congress ect thease people make up the laws and then they get voted in.
Now i know for SS you dont get it the first time or maybe a secon it has to go in front of a fed judge where taking ton's of paper work,laywer fee's ,doctor visit's and then more paper work ok just to get help but also this all has to be proof that the person need's help.
Now if a person has to go through all this and it can take months to years to gather all this to get on ssi ssdi why dont warefare do some thing like that i would think that would solve a lot .
But i also know this once a person aplys for ware fare they are told to aply with SS and if they are asepted by SS when you get your retrol SS pays back the state for helping with cash what ever. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/4/2008 4:01:31 PM |
Some ASSume way too much when reading between lines. Case in point... rather than maintain a civil discussion... some resort to flinging poorly veiled insults...
*shrug*
Guess the whole social system is too busy at the moment to instill the ability to debate without resorting to this...  | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 4:54:24 AM | I cant believe I am going to air my dirty laundry but here goes.....
I get welfare (hanging head in shame)
I get $640 for my disabilty. I am epileptic and have spent about 3 years of my life hooked up to tubes monitors etc. In John Hopkins, University of Marylard (movement disorder clinic) and NIH (National Institute of health) My drivers license was revoked for most of my 20's due to seizure yet I continue to keep my business and run my household never collecting any money. I built my businesses from nothing and eventually had 3 that ran from the home.
When I got divorced...lost my medical. I now have a PRE EXISTING CONDITION!! My medication is $2700 per month. The only way for me to survive was to take the disability train:( That gives me about $700 per month of MY $ that I put into the system and FREE MEDICAL. So yeah call me a mooch but I am alive. But the downside...I have to stash my cash. I have hidden bank accounts and saftey deposits and CDs in other peoples names. If they every found out that I am not POOR my medical coverage is gone.
I dont drink...It causes seizures...I dont have babies....teenagers are hard enough....and if any decent medical plan would take me I would gladly return to the proud woman I used to be.
OH if I get a job that makes more then $700 I loose medical....funny isnt it!
You may wonder how someone in the USA can live off such a low amount of money. Normally I dont think it would be possible. I own my house, vehicles and have no debt so my disability all goes to utilities.
Now I do know the "Others" who ride the system. I know a guy that went to a church and said he needed money to get his water turned on. The church asked him to help feed the homeless he never even showed up!!! Just took their money and ran. Or the people that line up at the liquor store to cash checks on the first of the month. Or the people buying chips and doughnuts with foodstamps....disgusting!!! | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 5:15:24 AM | Not-For-You I sympathize with your situation and believe me you are not alone.
I know of several couples, who earn just a little too much to qualify for the Social Services Medical Plan.
They have had to quit their jobs and go on the system, because once they paid out of pocket for their 'pre-existing condition' meds there was no money left to live on.
It is sad, that these people are willing and able to work, but it makes no financial cents for them to do so.
I do not by any stretch think these people or you, to be among those who are abusing the system.
It is simply trying to survive and remain healthy. If this is how it has to be done, so be it.
I wouldn't hesitate to do the same thing, if my situation called for it. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 5:45:43 AM | Here's what I don't get about the right wing:
When trying to influence human behaviour you have two options: the carrot and the stick (rewards and punishments). Why is it that the right wing wants to cut out the stuff that helps people but fully fund the things that screw them over?
Rehab programs, social welfare, health care... these are the things that the right wing sees as government waste of taxpayer money. Yet prisons get full funding. In fact the US incarcerates more people than supposedly hardline China or Russia (and they'll send poets to jail!). No more health care subsidies but the cops get new tazers.
If I were to explain to a child the difference between conservative and liberal I would tell him that conservatives believe that you can solve any problem by being enough of a jerk to the right person. Liberals believe you can solve any problem with being nice enough to the right person. Both are too simplistic and not based in reality.
BTW its mental illness, not laziness, that is the single biggest factor in homelessness/poverty. Just ask any one of the thousands of vets on the street that became traumatized in a war for cheap oil. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 6:10:51 AM | Well said, trailsman.
One of the programs my company runs is a GED/job training program for 16 to 24 YO drop outs. Some are single mom's who do get assistances. All are from families that are poor (I actually have to document this).
We offer 28 training slots. There are over 200 kids on the waiting list. And thats in a city of 40,000 people. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 6:19:48 AM | i have noticed in another thread people said just because they were working they should come first before ppl on welfare.
^^ a bigoted comment based on social status fueled by jealousy
so many would be amazed to find out just how much of their taxes truly does go to welfare... then they'd shut their trap
immature flings of insult should be narrowed to strictly those who abuse the system leaving it harder for those who truly need it
i happily support the less fortunate.. the man who lost his new job but cant qualify for EI but has a family to feed, the wheelchair bound old lady who is all alone, the single mom trying to raise babies into good descent kids,and all the rest who have their own reason for help,a recovering drug addict attending programs to turn his/her life around, a grown teenager who left an abusive home.... etc etc
i'm proud its there to help and will NOT turn my heart black no matter how hard i work my own ass to come home to raise my 3 kids on a meager check.. why? cuz i can sympathize that everyone has their own story and we all work together to survive
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 6:25:40 AM | I paid for my own college and so did my girlfriend. My parents were well off but hers were not. While I was paying $78 per credit she was getting grants that never had to be re-paid. My daughter will be going to college soon. The poor child....raised by a poor, disabled, single mom
There are some benefits to helping the "needy"
Another funny story....when we moved here, she was 14 1/2. Had been working at Subway and Chic-filet for 6 months and came to town with 2 letters of recommendation. She had a cell phone and saving for the license. She couldnt find anyone to hire her due to her age although it is legal. She was told to go to "Ozark Action" and they would help her find a job.
They asked if she was pregnant.....NO!
They asked if she was a high school drop out.....NO!
They asked if she had any problem with drugs, alcohol, or law.....NO!
They asked if she was abused in any way.....NO!
Then they couldnt help her find a job.
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 6:35:48 AM | --not working because you're disabled is one thing, but not working strictly because you don't want to, or "can't" find a job, that's another. while i'm currently unemployed, and money's tight, i'm also a fulltime college student,--
I think ist deeper than that Wow, you will find that by going to work,it cost you money, you got to bring a lunch, suppy transportation either personal or public and that cost money. It cost money to go to work, you do the math on a minimum wage job and you will see that you cannot afford to go to work, if you want people off of welfare than raise the minimum, its that simple.
Every Month in Ontario 25,000 people go on welfare, and every month 25,000 go off of welfare. It seems that amount of people are on the borderline of good paying jobs. Most abuse of welfare is consumed by young people who got pregnant and are not able to find a job for a number of years. Welfare is a direct example of our Educational system at preparing children for adulthood. Our educational system has failed our kids, its dumbed down.
--so what's the answer then???--
Better wages, my uncle owned a distrubution company and made hundreds of thousands a month, he paid his employees minimum. I agrued with this man constantly and I am not afraid to offer my opinion. His greed was some childs hunger. The people who worked for him were not you average welfare bum, they were tradesmen who lost there jobs because of freetrade and the lack of building going on during Regan and Mulroney. Of course the people better off felt that these poor souls should get themselves together and find new employment that could take yrs of retraining and of course if we pay for the training, then they are welfare bums, I am more concerned with the White Collar Welfare Bums who do not pay there share of corporate taxes that effect health care, education, military, social responsiblitlies.
--I work to improve my financial status in life... this does not include supporting another person simply because they find it easier to not work.--
Well welcome to the super market mindset. Did you ever consider that inner city schools in low income areas tend to ignore the righrts of the children to have a proper education so that when its time to move forward they are equipped with some sort of knowledge. Since the 60s, the most educated generation of all times, we seen social unrest and protest because the people where smarter and had a better system of education (Canada not the US, don't really know there situation), now a days most kids don't even know how to write English or Grammar enough to really understand anything. Plus it not always what you know on that level its who you know.
Anyhow, not-for-you pretty wells sums some things up with her post. There are those who are doers and those who are not, they need something to get them started, believe me that making money is way better than getting $540 a month. Because of free trade yrs ago, I lost my business and my brother lost his job, try finding a good paying job when in your 40s and thats when we start going to the Doctors with health problems, do you think and employer does not know this.
Secondly, people on Welfare cannot afford drugs or weed or heroin, they resort to crime and if you don't have an address you don't get support. So the system is at fault not the people. Minimum wage is to fault in an economy where energy cost are running rampant. Where do they start now. I'm established now, and it took 10 yrs to do it. But I remember when I went on Welfare for four months, it was so depressing, eventually a man I knew offered to help me learn a new trade, I owe him a lot. Give people a chance and see what they can do. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 7:21:26 AM | Not-for-you-
I know of that problem too. What we need to do is figure out how to help more people, not less people. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 9:04:00 AM | My mom who worked all her life, had to live on a small SS income and a very small pension. She had a chunk taken out to pay for her medical. She was always scared something would happen and she would end up in the hospital with no way of paying. I dont know how she did it. She applied for food stamps but was turned down because she made $25 over the limit.
Then I see people on welfare who could work but wont, get it all for free.
This whole thing is backwards. The retired people who worked all their life and paid into the system should be getting all the free food, breaks on housing, food stamps, free medical, free meds. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 9:22:20 AM | This whole thing is backwards. The retired people who worked all their life and paid into the system should be getting all the free food, breaks on housing, food stamps, free medical, free meds.
I agree.
I also don't like that people on SS in the US have to pay income taxes on it,they payed into SS when they worked..why should they have to pay taxes on it again?
That's like loaning a friend some money and the friend charges YOU a fee for borrowing it. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 10:37:52 AM | [insult should be narrowed to strictly those who abuse the system]
this is what i've been trying to tell some as well on here cause they all assume just cause a portion of people abuse welfare that everyone does....when in reality anyone can be disabled and not show any signs of it unless you actually took time to get to know them or the honest people who are going to school/programs to better themselves so they can get by on there own someday...
everyone makes welfare out to be great and it isn't in the long run...you have a worker that knows a lot about your life...and you don't usually talk to that worker much but they have to know all this personal into about you...then if women have kids they also have to becareful cause welfare will be up there asses telling them how to take care of there kids or they take the kids away...
this whole sterilization thing that seems to get a lot of people.... well no woman should be forced to be totally fixed so they can never have kids and it wouldn't be fair at all cause its her body not the governments...she has a right to say no and put me on birth control instead...and if that would ever fall into play well then same go for men they have to get the surgery to never have kids as well...cause it takes 2 to make a baby....so that would have to go both ways...and the chances of that ever happening good luck...never will because it cause way to many issues with society and the government get in a lot of sh*t for it too once people were forced to give up one part of them just because of welfare... | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 11:58:04 AM |
I think ist deeper than that Wow, you will find that by going to work,it cost you money, you got to bring a lunch, suppy transportation either personal or public and that cost money. It cost money to go to work, you do the math on a minimum wage job and you will see that you cannot afford to go to work, if you want people off of welfare than raise the minimum, its that simple.
this is the mentality that keeps people on welfare. why do we make the assumption that everybody on welfare can't get anything better than a minimum wage job? i've never had a minimum wage job, in my life. and i don't have many marketable skills, i've never had formal training, a degree, or much of an education really. the only time in my life where i haven't had a job is right now, after i decided to go back to school to finish off my degree. my school schedule is so ****ed up its hard to find a job to fit around it. but if i had a more open schedule, i could find a job in a heartbeat. and it wouldn't be minimum wage. i don't get it.... there's always excuses for these people. and while you quote me on one thing i say to lead into a longer post, my main point isn't people not getting jobs, my main point is people doing drugs and having MORE babies while on welfare, which makes their problems 10x worse than they were before. i don't think we need to raise minimum wage, i think we need to find a way to convince welfare recipients to quit having babies, because all they are doing is supplying us with yet another generation of working class citizens. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 1:15:32 PM | To those who don't like telling welfare mothers what to do:
There is no excuse for a single mother to bring more unwanted children into this world,other than some warped mentality that having that child will cause that loser boyfriend to stick around and pay child support.This isn't the 1950's anymore ladies,there are many options for birth control nowadays(not just sterilization).
One more thought:quit hooking up with loser men,responsible men would use a condom and pay child support. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 1:25:08 PM | | well thats why they created birth control but it doesn't always work...we need to give the mothers who do go on birth control after there first child a break..cause we all know birth control is only 99.9 effective...so there is always the 1% chance another child be brought into the world....those women who do go on birth control are trying not to have anymore till they are ready for a second child...i have met baby poppers and they pis* me off but then there are women who only wanted 1 till they got of welfare and had a stable job...but ended up prego again and not planning it...well if there against abortion they will end up having the child so its only the mothers who refuse/don't want to to go on birth control...unless there actually allergic to it that be the only excuse not to go on birth control.. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 2:27:02 PM |
Did you ever consider that inner city schools in low income areas tend to ignore the righrts of the children to have a proper education so that when its time to move forward they are equipped with some sort of knowledge. Since the 60s, the most educated generation of all times, we seen social unrest and protest because the people where smarter and had a better system of education (Canada not the US, don't really know there situation), now a days most kids don't even know how to write English or Grammar enough to really understand anything. Have you stopped to consider that half the onus of ensuring a child receives a proper education is on the parent(s)?
You can blame substandard education for only so much; it's the responsibility of the individual to ensure that their child receives the best possible education by partaking of the responsibility.
This whole statement screams of shifting the blame elsewhere.
Plus it not always what you know on that level its who you know. Give me a break ~ contacts might open doors, but they don't ensure that the position is maintained nor do they lay the foundation for promotions.
Again... blame shifting.  | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 3:14:17 PM | I've been on both sides of this. When I split with my ex I had 3 boys under the age of 4. I was working parttime. He refused to pay any support. I needed assistance to top up what I made. I felt degraded. Ashamed. But I continued working, making only a couple of dollars more than my babysitter, who was subsidized. People laughed at me for working for basically nothing. But I knew down the road it would pay off. And it did. After a few years I chased my ex down for support. Started making more money, worked more hours. Was able to go off assistance.
I watched my mother raise 5 kids holding down an office job. She raised 5 hard workers who were never out of work. I've raised 3. They watched me work everyday, sometimes 2 jobs. My kids expect nothing to be handed to them.
I've also watched friends or ex's of friends stay on welfare long after their kids needed them at home fulltime. Most times their children ended up on assistance at a young age.
"Ablebodied" people who don't work deserve the stigma that goes along with being on assistance. Unfortunately those that do have reason to be on assistance suffer for this.
I've watched too many abuse the system. Say they're seperated when they're not. Work under the table. Move boyfriends in and "forget" to report it. I have no problem helping those who need help, who are unable to work for whatever reason. I do have a problem when ablebodied people are allowed to collect assistance for life. Having children is not an excuse to collect welfare. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 3:20:53 PM | ^^^^"Have you stopped to consider that half the onus of ensuring a child receives a proper education is on the parent(s)? "^^^^^^
Yes, I have stopped to consider that. But that is not the kids fault. The kid in that situation (and there are sadly millions of them) need all of the support and every opportunity that they can be provided.
I ran away from home when I was 15 due to child abuse and lived on the streets of manhattan for 16 months. I made it out alive, was given a mentor and an opportunity, and now have 2 masters degrees and am the executive director of a non profit. If you want to get mad at bad parents, go for it. But lets PLEASE do everything humanly possible to help young people and not throw them under the bus as well. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 5:26:28 PM | I'm very glad to see that more have chimed in with there support of those less fortunate.
The short answer to lightening the load on social services is to link people with sustainable employment that suits their needs, interests and abilities. Basically, just like all the self help guru's suggest, empowerment is the key to long term success.
I have to be honest, this thread has bothered me a lot. It speaks to a problem much bigger than SS abuse, a problem of bigotry anchored in ignorance, or worse, arrogance.
To read discussions about sterilizing other human beings, about infringing on other basic human rights with things like mandatory drug testing and the like...it's disheartening. It bothers me to know that after seemingly progressing (arguably) past issues of Race and Gender, that social standing is the new benchmark between human being and "insert racial slur" Is this really possible??? What gives anyone the right to hold that kind of ownership over someone???
We don't put this much scrutiny on the captains of our industry, those who's behaviour can seriously affect the lives of employees, investors and the economy in general so h0w can people honestly think that the poor deserve it?
I believe that the change in minimum wages is fine in principal, but as many people know, these days with the new H.R. model of less full time employees and more part time or contract workers, people aren't likely to see much of an improvement...more likely a reduction in hours etc...
I think the real answer for immediate relief is income tax reform. If you work full time, and still earn at or below the poverty line, then you pay no income tax. Period. You're doing your share by stimulating the economy just by showing up to a job that most elitists wouldn't (or often couldn't) do. You should also get red carpet access to training and education that will allow to reach your full potential. This too helps the economy when you have empowered people working at something they enjoy. They're more productive and generally more effecient workers.
You should have access to adequate health care, including dental. This ensures everyone is capable of being their best everyday, and is a proven preventative measure in keeping life time individual health costs lower.
The bottom line is that there are a lot of people working "full time" who still live at or below the poverty line. That's simply unnaceptable. Every citizen has a right to their fair share of the pie, as long as they're willing to contribute by sharing the load, whether that's as a Venture Capitalist or as a Customer Service rep at Tim Horton's.
The only thing worse than living day to day as the working poor, is the psychological effect of being marginalized by the very society you're a contributing member of. | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 6:09:52 PM | "I think the real answer for immediate relief is income tax reform."
I was shocked this year when I filed. Every year that I can remember I have had an accountant. I had several businesses and one was non-profit. One I made a huge profit in and one was ran out of the home. My ex-husband worked out of the home.
This year was the first year I filed head of household with 2 dependants and considering I am disabled well I knew I would get EIC. Not that way at all....Social security disability is not taxable income. Now if I worked just one week at any McDonalds anywhere I would get 2 child tax credits the un earned income credit and possibly a disabilty credit. Oh and every penny I paid in my property and real estate taxes back. So what maybe 6K for a W2 that says $50.00
I know someone that lives with his mom, few kids, had a job for a month or 2. Made about $2000 last year and he got back $4700!!! | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 6:20:31 PM | How does this...
If you work full time, and still earn at or below the poverty line, then you pay no income tax. Period. You're doing your share by stimulating the economy just by showing up to a job make sense when combined with this...
Every citizen has a right to their fair share of the pie, as long as they're willing to contribute by sharing the load ?????
I'm confused... if a person chooses to limit themselves by not striving for a higher paying job, they should get tax breaks simply because they aren't up for the challenge of a higher pay grade?
Give me a break...
Having said that, I agree that higher incomes do pay higher taxes; and there are enough tax shelters for people who manage their money appropriately so it's not too much of a burden on them simply because they work longer, harder or take on a more stressful position.
But to say that I deserve to pay more in taxes simply because I've ensured that I'm earning wages above the poverty level while others pay nothing towards the society they apparently contribute towards???... why should I give up a portion of the pie I work for so that another person can work fewer hours, with less stress and less responsibility?
The only thing worse than living day to day as the working poor, is the psychological effect of being marginalized by the very society you're a contributing member of. We get out of life what we are willing to risk and to put into it... ergo, the people who take the higher risks get more rewards than the people who float through life amid a haze of narcotic fog...
Try getting high on the adrenaline rush of client negotiations instead of narcotics... you might find that the effort is worth the reward... both in personal achievement, and in the feeling of contributing more than second hand marijuana smoke... | |
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| why judge people on welfare?
Posted: 3/5/2008 6:35:11 PM | psssst. I wonder by this and other threads if you don't just enjoy stiring the pot.
I mean...where did second hand pot smoke come into this???
You assume that people "choose" to limit themselves, and as I and others have clearly pointed out, that view is an oversimplification usually espoused by an apathetic middle class. But you're not hearing that are you.
You yourself are only partly responsible for your success, whatever that may be. No matter what you may think, unless you're living in the woods all by yourself, and living off the land with your own two hands, you are doing NOTHING alone. You are not the hero you'd like to imagine yourself if you're driving on roads built by the community. You're not better than anyone else if you have been afforded more oppourtunities based on your geographic location, age or gender. Everyone is equal, and I'm dissapointed that there aren't more feminists out there to remind you of that.
Just like the poor aren't the villian you try to use as a medium for your elitist and ego-centric views. | |
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