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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/6/2006 1:57:31 AM | now for a glimpse at my 'dark side'
springfield missouri is one of several cities in some phase of a ban on 'dangerous dogs'-
there continues to be many accounts of 'bad actors', both the dogs [pits and rots now- shepherds in the 60's] and owners [who should always be accountable] but then there is the universal rub- accountability
i love life- i love animals... last summer a wasp got in the house. i got it in a dishtowel and put it outside. it[?] got in again, i found and fixed the gap, but as i was releasing the wasp- yep! i got stung! [hint;] i don't like killing. [it was its nature, but i still killed it]
when i lived in the country i killed pit vipers, raccoons, a possum, a coyote, xxxxx- whatever animal that attacked/ threatened my family or our animals. a hunter? NO. but some might have been out of season- the xxxxx endangered? some possibly protected by law. [hint]
*city people- don't drop off your unwanted dogs out in the country! our animal control is death. the dogs will start running in packs and chasing livestock to their death. i had to kill a stray to protect my daughter.
[here comes the dark side] there's a saying to treat family like guests and visa versa...
when i got back from nam my excited cousin ran a red light. after another near miss i told him
'if we get in an 'accident' and its your fault?!?- and i'm still alive?!?- i'll kill you. i didn't spend a year in nam to get killed by your stupidity.'
so if your animal threatens/hurts me or mine- NO LAW will protect it. [or you] from reckoning.
[better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6;]
OT- you people that have 'accidents' driving under ANY influence, or falling asleep, head...
i love the american ideal- their propaganda; but i hate the corrupt, incompetent government | |
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Hezron
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Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 77 | |
| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/6/2006 5:26:02 AM | | One of the problems with banning is that another breed will spring up and be trained aggressively to fill the void/ If we demand muzzles, then the people who want to own an intimidating breed will switch to one not required to be muzzled and train it to be nasty. What I resent is when I see the tough guys walkingtheir tough dogs...i had an incident a few years ago where one group of teens at the park though it would be funny to let their dog loose on me...(I was working security at the time) That dog was nothing more than a killer, a hate machine and it had obviously been trained and conditioned to be that way. It is a tough issue...the bottom line should be if your dog attacks anybody...it gets put down and you owe that person big time!!!!! | |
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| Re: pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/6/2006 5:43:31 AM | Snoug on 9/14/2004 7 30 PM
Subject: Re: pit bull dog ban
Message: Get rid of all large dogs unless its a seeing eye dog.
Are you retarded? Small dogs tend to do more damage you just don't hear about it. This pitbull thing is stupid why make a breed of dog extinct just because of stupid owners.
How about we all live in little boxes and not go outside then the whole world would be safe.
Grow a set all you scardy cats!!! | |
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| Re: pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/6/2006 6:33:24 AM | | Any dog breed which has proven itself capable of killing humans can be considered "dangerous". This is not just my opinion. This is rational. I think we ought to have special licenses AT LEAST for those breeds, with criminal penalties for those found not to be sufficiently guarding the public from their "pet". | |
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| Re: pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/6/2006 6:39:19 AM | | I tottally disagree. As far as i am concerned, no dog should be banned. How dogs are raised is entirely the responsibilty of the owners. I own 3 dogs now and two of them a large breed. They are fine because they are raised well, but i would never put then into a position that would make them aggressive. i am sick and tired of people thinking dogs should be banned just because one or two may attack someone. what the christ are some of these people doing or the kids doing, maybe they are provoking the anaimals. | |
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| Re: pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/6/2006 10:33:34 AM | If they are going to ban dogs because of their idiot owners not raising them right, can we also ban the kids of rotten parents who allow them to be sluts, junkies, gang bangers....
Same frickin thing and I have a lot more issue with those monster kids than any animal, and I definitely HATE those little rat dogs with a passion. Their owners actually think it is cute the way they nip at people's heels and get under foot tripping them. I give them hate looks and contact the management when I see those things in grocery stores and restaurants. Got one thrown out of the food court at the mall the other day. Probably would have not even known it was there if the owner hadn't set it so close to me that I worried its fleas would be jumping on my food. YUCK! | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/6/2006 4:56:16 PM | I can't tell you how many stray dogs come onto my property fence line. The other day there was a beautiful young Rottie. If you have any breed dog that is capable of killing a person or other animal it should Not run free
This is what was in my post
if you have a dog at home chained, it would be freaking stupid to muzzle him.
....how did it not make sense, sounds somewhat like the same thing...by the way what did the rottie have to do with your story....I tried to figure it out, but it just says...the other day there was a beautiful young rottie.
Just a side note, I had a lab that broke free from a leash | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/6/2006 8:30:09 PM | I was trying to make the point that many people let their dogs run free or they don't contain them properly.
I also want to state that a dog can drink water from a cage muzzle and he can remove it if he really wants to. A muzzle is no guarentee that the dog won't bite.
Another point that many of you have missed is that genes have a lot to do with temperment.
It is very important to research bloodlines before purchasing any dog. Also there are breeds out there that have had temperment problems but because of responsible breeders the temperment problems have diminished over the years. Breeds seem to go in cycles, lately the standard poodle has been having problems in some of their lines with temperment. My Borzoi Tarzan had 3 request for stud and I turned them all down and neutered him due to the fact that all of his litter were put down before the age of 5 because of attacking or killing adults, children or other dogs. I had to work very hard for a number of years to train him to be the lovey dovey that he is today. I still don't trust him with children. He has been my most challenging dog I have ever owned. I also don't train with agression or an iron fist. Each situation is different but it all comes down to responsible dog ownership and that means seeking out the training techniques that are necessary for that dog to give you the respect of being the Alpha.
There is a book called "The Dogs Mind" Understanding Your Dogs Behavior by Bruce Fogle
Also " Playtraining Your Dog "by Patricia Gail Burnham both are a must read for anyone having a problem with behavior with their dog. The Monks of Newskete also have some very good training books. It is never too late to train a dog. The statement "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" is completly incorrect. I have been involved in Dogs for 20+ years, I have had as many as 13 dogs living together with no fights. I have looked at behavior in dogs from every angle and it comes down to genetic lines, enviroment, experiences as a pup and how much time and commitment the owner is willing to invest.
Smoochie | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/6/2006 10:39:50 PM | I have currently have 3 pitbulls. They are simply the best dogs I have ever had the pleasure of owning. My first and the oldest of the clan was a rescue dog. He was scheduled to be put down because of an aggression problem brought on by an abusive owner. I knew the breeder and he asked if I would take him and try to modify his behavior so he wouldn't have to be put to sleep. It took a lot of work and love, but now he has had 10 more years of the good life and he is one happy, friendly dog.
My two females seem to think they are lap dogs but they weigh in at 60 and 70 lbs respectively. I have had them since they were 8 weeks old, and they have been properly socialized and have obedience training. I can walk all three on leash at once... without getting dragged down the street. They love everyone I invite into my home, adults, children, and even other animals.
They are fiercely protective and devoted to me. I feel safer having them with me than carrying a loaded gun. Because they are properly trained and socialized, they pose no threat to anyone or anything unless they intend harm to me or anyone with me. They are amazing to watch with my friends children. They are naturally protective of kids and love to play. They can have their ears and tails pulled, get their toes stepped on, even get jumped on and don't get upset.
That being said... they are animals and have intincts that we really don't truly understand. I would never let them run free or be around children... or anyone else for that matter, unattended. That is just simple common sense and responsible pet ownership. These breeds do require responsible owners. They are headstrong, dominant and extremely powerful... but not more so than many other breeds out there. It's the inexperienced, dumb, and malicious owners that give this breed a bad name.. not to mention the spin the media loves to put on them. | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 8:09:24 AM | "common sense"
Not much of that in here. All this about the breed alone determining temperament. How stupid is that? It is like saying that just because your parents are fat you WILL be too.
"I was trying to make the point that many people let their dogs run free or they don't contain them properly."
It is those nasty little rat dogs that are much more of a hazard, because people DO just let them run lose and annoy everyone. I HATE THOSE DOGS AND THEIR OWNERS. There is a man on this street that has one and ALWAYS lets it run lose. I have even stopped him on the street and called him out "You just don't give a sh*t do you? You just don't care that that thing tried to attack a little girl that was just chasing her ball down the sidewalk do you?" The moron just stood there and stared at me. Yup, every time I go down the street it is hoping that thing is in the middle of it so I can run it down before it does get a hold of any of these kids!!! | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 8:29:43 AM | I too also have a beautiful 5 month old Pit Bull Terrier.......she is well behaved, loving and very affectionate to everyone......children and other animals included......there are a few websites maybe those wanting to ban pitbulls should look at such as
http://gprime.net/flash.php/thepitbullproblem
watch this video and then tell me that my dog is cruel and mean. This makes me sick..... | |
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Hezron
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Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 87 | |
| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 8:33:58 AM | Just had a thought. Why not make everybody accountable. If your dog...any breed attacks someone's pet or a person...the owner should be charged as if they had commited the act itself. Your pitbull kills somebody...you killed them. Atttacks...you get charged with assault. I think this would put all the irresponsible owners on notice and we would then not have to have useless time consuming political debates concerning breeds ect.  | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 8:44:08 AM | | The comment made about blood lines having a lot to do with temperment is such a joke.....I am going to give a human example here.........my 25 year old friend, who was adopted at birth, who has a wonderful job, great education,is responsible and a law obidding citizen just found out the his "biological" father has been in and out of jail his whole life for drugs, theft, assault etc....is going to be just like his "father" because it is in his blood? You have got to be kidding me.......he is the way he is because of who and how he was raised........just the same as my pitbull will be........ | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 8:50:14 AM | hezron - I only wish all dogs would be held to the same standard.
tripleddd- I agree, that is moronic. My mother, brother, sister, grandfather... were all alcoholics, and I don't even drink but maybe about 2 beers a year. | |
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APG
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 90 | |
| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 9:08:18 AM | uhhhh. 1st post :)
---ban pitbull's, yeah right...
then ban pointy sticks, and knife's too. (no joke look at the UK).
Ban (well, fine and imprison) the careless owners. No single breed gets more negative publicity, mosty thanks to the gangsta & tough guy image the dog represents nowadays...
Not so long ago pitbull's (well american pit bull terriers, etc.) were looked upon as one of the most trustworthy, and people friendly breeds. Remember that old shoe, little rascals, their dog was a pit bull...
Whatever, people always like to jump to conclusion and media needs hype to sell papers so killer dogs usually make for an easy sell. It is true that in the 1900's the dogs were used in the ring, but they were never used to attack other people. They couldn't. When the owner would take care of the dog during the rounds, the dog could not attack people.. duh...
Anyhow, not pulling this stuff out of my..... well you get the idea.
Have a look at this site:
American Temperament Test Society, Inc. (ATTS)
http://www.atts.org/statistics.html
also, if you are local (i.e. BC, Canada)
have a look at this site:
http://www.hugabull.com
Stuff like this really bothers me, two of my friends own pitbulls and they are really nice dogs, sure they bark at other dogs, but animal agression is ok, human agression is not, this is what the problem is with all these so called "breeders" nowadays, you get neglected dogs, with bad genes, breeding and these "puppy mills" sell these less then perfect examples of the breed to make a few bucks at the expense of the general public's safety, as well as the safety of the owner, someone trying to save a buck might end up with a dog who will show human agression, such a dog needs to be put down since it is not safe to anyone. That is just sad.
On another note, does anyone remember the proposed handgun ban? Me and my friends from NFA & CSSA fought that thing and won. Why should I conform to what the government tells me, when all my guns ever shoot at is paper targets? Just because gang bangers are shooting eachother, is not a case for banning lawfully owned and safely stored (by law, in a vault) property. Don't paint the good people with the same brush as the bad people. It's as simple as that, and it has merit in this case (the banning of pitbulls). Just because a few neglected/untrained/not cared for dogs have attacked a few people does not give anyone the right to call for a ban (and extermination) of a single breed.
Cheers & tgif. :) | |
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APG
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 91 | |
| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 9:16:03 AM | edited to add:
please have a look at this also.
http://www.badrap.org/rescue/myths.cfm
(I posted that after reading the post here about pitbulls going crazy because thier brain swells from imbeeding and pushes on their skull...aha...sure  bad facts... very bad facts) | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 9:55:26 AM |
The comment made about blood lines having a lot to do with temperment is such a joke....
No it's not APBT's wer enot bred for conformation of size. They wrere bred for 3 mental traits. Gameness,, agression, and stability.
These dogs are anturally animal agresive but should be stable aroudn people beucas eof the anture of old school dog fighting in which 3 people were in the pit with the two dogs. (2 handlers and a ref). The two ahndelrs would be handlign the dogs mid fight after a turn so these dogs were bred to enver bite man.
Howeve rin the 70's a man went ona crusade to stop dogfighting which he considered a vicous blood sport. This publacized what had been an undergorund apst time. He found a willing ally in the Human Society and they filled the emdia with reports of pit bulls beign fed kittens and ahving their front fee tcut off so they could get lower to the ground.
These reports found thier way into the inner city wher euneducate dthugs could not understand the differance between a fighting dog and an attack dog. They wante dthis canine monster they read aobut. Unforunately all they could get were scatter bred curs with out the long pedigrees of stable behaviour. They then took these curs and bred them up in size and for raw agression without any of the controls dogmen used.
What we have today are two distinct breeds (actually 5) called by the same name pitbull. In truth the breeds are
AKC- Staffordshire Bull Terrier which is all show no go
UKC- American Pitbull Terrier which is mostly show with very little go
ADBA- American Pitbull Terrier which is all go
American Bull Dog- An attmept to recreate the early American pit dog based on the assumption tha tthe APBT isn't that creature depsites reams of evidecne sayign it is includign pictures and pedigrees.
Pitbull- The scatterbred curs dogs that may or maynot have real APBT blood in their viens who are genrally twice the twice and onyl half as happy as a real APBT.
I am not condoning modern dogfighting. The ADBA ha srightfully switche dot weight pulling to test gameness. Howeve rthe old Dogmen like Coldy, Tudor, and heinzel gave the wolrd an incredibly robust, loving, smart and loyal dog. The real APBT is the msot versatile dog in the world. It holds more championshsips in more disciplines than any othe rbreed. Herdin, sledding,. rescue, therapy, seeign eye, shutzhund, fighting, weightpulling etc. These dogs are favore d for therapy work because thier high pain tolerance and gentle disposstion allows rough behaviour and accidental hurts to occur with otu a bite.
In WW! the APBT was the offical mascot dog of America. Sgt studdy an APBT WW1 vet known as the hero dog visite dhte whit ehouse 4 tmes and Petey the Pup of our gang was a duel registered UKC/APBT-AKC/SBT. Cheyenee and Dakota can be found runnign around Northern Califonia in bright orange vest lookign for lost hikers and hunters. This is the type of temeprment of a real pitbull.
How do you tell them apart? Well if the dog your looking at is over 70 pounds and the head looks like a massive block of stone it's probalby a cur dog. A real fightign dog (or one decndded form a real fightign dog is thin and light ralrey exceeding 50 lbs. The mor ebone a dog has the more energy it takes to move it around and the more force has to be exerted to stop it's motion.
Here is the ABDA standard for the head. Note oints 1,2, and 5
B. Head
1. Head size balanced in relationship to the rest of the body
2. 2/3 the width of the shoulders
3. Wedge shaped when viewed from the top or side, round when viewed from the front.
4. Cheeks 25% wider than the neck at the base of the skull
5. The length from the nose to the stop should equal the length from the stop to the back of the head.
6. The bridge of the muzzle is well developed. The fill in under the eyes should be wider than the head at the base of the ears.
7. The head should be deep from the top of the head to the bottom of the jaw.
8. Straight box like muzzle
9. Lips tight
10. Teeth, incisors should meet in the front in a scissor bite. Canines should be wide at the base and taper to the end, top canines fitting tightly together behind the bottom canines. They should be sound and healthy with none missing.
11. Eyes, small and deep set. Elliptical when viewed from the front, triangular when viewed from the side.
12. Ears- no preference should be given to cropped or uncropped ears, except to enhance the overall attractiveness of the individual dog. | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 10:09:46 AM | | Thanks for all the info......but being the responsible APBT owner that I am I already knew all that and more, and what I meant by the bloodlines comment is: if my dog's parents were bad and cruel, does not mean that my dog will be..........so I stand by what I said........ownership plays the biggest part in a dogs tempermant. | |
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APG
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 94 | |
| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 10:24:55 AM | | On another note, I am also in the market for a dog, and most likely will adopt a APBT, due to the low maintenence of their coat and their excellent motivational skills (to go out for a run, lol). Don't hate the breed, hate the irresponsible owner. Props to all current APBT owners for fighting the good fight in showing the positive image of the breed. | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 10:48:32 AM | Ive owned alot of dogs over the years but because of all the bad press I heard about pitbulls I though that would be the last dog i would ever want.
Until we found a pit/boxer abandone at the local state forest .
We brought her home and fell in love with her,she is a sweet little girl and we named her
Brendy Lou[because she is brendal colored]
She never had shown a ounce of aggession towards people other than barking through the fence at someone walking down the road like alot of dogs do.
If you think that all Pits are evil ,just remember they are one of Gods creatures and have the capasity to love like all living things.
They are bread to be strong and can hold their own in a fight if needed to protect themselves ,but to aggressively seek out a fight I think can be created by the enviroment they are raised. | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 1:33:16 PM |
There is a book called "The Dogs Mind" Understanding Your Dogs Behavior by Bruce Fogle Also " Playtraining Your Dog "by Patricia Gail Burnham both are a must read for anyone having a problem with behavior with their dog. The Monks of Newskete also have some very good training books. It is never too late to train a dog. The statement "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" is completly incorrect. I have been involved in Dogs for 20+ years, I have had as many as 13 dogs living together with no fights. I have looked at behavior in dogs from every angle and it comes down to genetic lines, enviroment, experiences as a pup and how much time and commitment the owner is willing to invest.
Sorry I feel the need to quote my previous post.
Genetics which means Relatives in the dogs background is the #1 reason for aggression.
Enviroment and pup experiences are 2nd and 3rd. I know it is very difficult to research bloodlines when you have adopted or rescued a dog but you are taking a chance with that dogs future behavior. I would also think that allergies could be a factor or if the dog is in constant pain. We have had a lot of post about pit bulls and their bad rap. What are some of the other breeds on the list ? and I do think it varies from state to state ? Can a breed ever get off the list when there have been fewer incidences ?
Smoochie | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 2:29:56 PM | We have a couple of dogs and one of them is a six year old pitbull X, when we first got him last year he was aggressive towards other dogs and got into it a number of times with some of these dogs at the local off-leash dog parks. He had not been socialized much with other dogs before we got him and I was at the point where I was going to put him down for getting into fights. We were afraid we weren't going to be able to take him anywhere without having any problems but by using a muzzle when we went out and teaching him that his behaviour was bad, we haven't had any problems with him in about six or seven months now. Whenever we go out to the dog parks he very rarely plays with other dogs except for our other dog and I would never leave him unattended with children but I have to say that he is probably the most well behaved dog I have ever had who listens really well and absolutely loves people. I have however seen a number of younger and immature people at the dog parks who have pitbulls and quite possibly got them for the tough image they represent but don't know how to properly train and take care of them. So as far as I'm concerned, the onus is on the owners of the dogs not the dogs themselves, dogs are generally loving animals that if socialized properly can get along with anyone or anything.
cheers and beers | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 3:26:37 PM | >>She was walking along the park when a pit bull ran over and bit her bottom
Did she have a cute bottom? I might have bit it myself...jkg
The crazy, capricious moderators of POF, in their infinite and baffling wisdom, have seen fit to delete the other pit bull thread I was posting on.
Does anyone else think the rules on POF are baffling and haphazardly enforced?
Anyway, until they delete this thread...which they surely will for some reason...
There are no vicious breeds of dog. There are only vicious individual dogs.
The only excusable reason for a dog to bite someone is in defense of his owner or his owner's property.
Responsible breeders of any breed--pit bulls included--will not breed dogs with unstable personalities.
Unstable personalities in dogs are the result of irresponsible breeding, poor training, or abuse.
Buy from a responsible breeder, train your dog, and don't abuse it--and you will have a responsible canine citizen. No matter what breed he is.
Who am I to say? I am a registered veterinary technician, and I have completed 75% of the vet school curriculuum. And I have spent my life around dogs.
Now, anyone want to place bets on how long before the almighty moderators decide this thread is in violation of some rule and delete it? | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 3:31:37 PM |
Genetics which means Relatives in the dogs background is the #1 reason for aggression.
That statement is so true. You knew know when a pitbull will "turn on" and become animal agressive. it's in their blood. Tryign to undue without serious training that is like triygn to teacha bird not to fly or afish not to swim. Understanding and accpeting these tendancies is the key. Love and nurtrign alone will not in amny cases counter act the natural drive to fight.
ge tonto the pitbull forums and every few months there is some owner who comes home to fight thier house turned intoa charnel house. These dogs ar ewihtout a doubt the best breed of dog for some people. But they are sports cars, very high maintence. If you cannot deovut the time and energy to seriosu trianign then this type probably isn't for you.
My dog Scipio is extremily animal agressive. This means as his owner it is upto me to kepe him out of trouble. Like runnign in front cars he des not know and cannot grasp that fighting is wrong and dangerous. This means I don't go to off leash parks, sue a stout leather collar and never let him run free unelss I ahve inspected the area, it is just me and him and I know he cannot ge tout of the area.
My dog gets lovin and petting every day, he is totally spoiled but this has done nothing to damper his natural drive. | |
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| pit bull dog ban
Posted: 4/7/2006 3:38:09 PM | ^^I assume you are a pit bull owner? So am I. They are not all dog/other animal aggressive.
I have owned 3, and none of them were. | |
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