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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 1/29/2009 8:30:15 AM | capitano blaugh
Did I miss something here? If you live in Canada and get divorced from a woman who has kids that are not your biologically, you have to pay child support for those kids too when you get divorced?
I know I must be reading that wrong. There is no way I would be thinking of getting married a second time if I knew I might have to pay child support for kids that were not my own. That's just crazy!
On a side note, I also wondered if you could tell me how you put quotes in these white boxes. I have no idea how it's done. | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 1/29/2009 9:08:13 AM | | Hello Ladies I do have something to add to this thought.For starters my name is Ray and for some time I was that guy who just could not wait for the end to come when I no longer had to pay support.My wife had cheated on me and so naturally I was peeved at the thought of getting screwed twice,I pay 1000.00 a month and if I miss a payment the state seizes my accounts and freezes my driving privileges which then puts me into the rears and leaves me no money to pay or live.I want to some day move on and fall in love again but when most women hear you have children and support they do not look back, so whats a guy to do? am I never suppose to be happy again? I have a lot to offer in life so I look forward to what you all have to say. | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 1/29/2009 9:38:27 AM | Mortarman, I would have no problem being with a man who pays support for his kids. When you have kids, it takes two to support them. However, if I was dating someone who had kids and later found out he did not contribute financially or emotionally toward them, then I'd be gone in a heartbeat!  | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 1/29/2009 1:24:17 PM |
I know I must be reading that wrong. There is no way I would be thinking of getting married a second time if I knew I might have to pay child support for kids that were not my own. That's just crazy!
The woman up here suggest they need it...it is in the best interest of the child....they do not get rich off it...it is only right....and they can even be double dipping...i.e. collecting off 2 guys for the same child....
only in Canada you say
And some woman get so indignant when you suggest dating single mothers especially stay at home non finacially self sufficient woman are or should be considered a red flag! | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 1/29/2009 7:12:48 PM | | fishin4u, apparently there is a law about that, although I'm not sure of the specifics. I have never heard of it being implemented in 'real life'. (I have a child that would count as a former step child to my ex, but I wouldn't dream of asking him to pay support for him. That would be ludicrous). So if you marry a low life woman, than yes, it is a possibility...... | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 1/30/2009 6:07:00 AM |
See, now, this is something I've never understood. Why the second child would receive a lesser amount?
Well mathmatically there are really only three possibilities:
1) The child support for each child remains a fixed percentage of the man's (or in some rare cases a woman's) income. Usually 25%.
2) Each successive child effectively lowers the child support of previous relationships because they all draw from the same 'pool' or percentage of the provider's income.
3) The child support of each child reflects a percentage of the provider's income at the time it is agreed upon, court-ordered or not. In this scenario each successive child receives less child support than the previous, because there is less money to draw upon.
In the first scenario we can easily foresee a situation where a provider is paying 100% of their income to child support after a fourth child. Unless such a person received all their needs for free they would quickly die. Even two children would require everyone making child support payments to make at least 50k a year to survive since they'd be forced to pay 25k in child support.
Obviously a person's income doesn't magically increase when a child is conceived so the only alternative is diminishing returns. The best we can all do is plan on situations like these BEFORE entering into a relationship with someone.
I'm not suggesting in any way that a pre-existing court-ordered child support schedule should in any way be altered....but why would a second child in a following relationship be treated as "lesser" in that same regard???
In a perfect world everyone would be treated equally...
Children would all receive an equal share of a provider's income, AND it would be enough to raise a child. Men would be rewarded with custody as often as women when all things are equal.
But we don't live in that perfect world, we live in reality. In reality second children, much like second marriages, don't receive the commitment and dedication that the first did.
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psssst
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Joined: 6/4/2007
Msg: 183 | |
| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 1/30/2009 9:54:19 AM |
But we don't live in that perfect world, we live in reality. In reality second children, much like second marriages, don't receive the commitment and dedication that the first did. You're absolutely correct. So it stands to reason that since no one would want to be second choice, and since no one would want their child to be second either... the following would have to apply:
If you do not have all the children that you intend from the parents of the first child, then you shouldn't have more children... and at one failed marriage, you should resign yourself to being single with no chance of companionship...
After all... there's no hope for the second child... second marriage... second relationship... ad nauseum...
Gimme a break... I prefer to think that I've learned from my experiences and now, I have more to offer because of those experiences... | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 1/30/2009 11:13:44 AM |
You're absolutely correct. So it stands to reason that since no one would want to be second choice, and since no one would want their child to be second either... the following would have to apply:
If you do not have all the children that you intend from the parents of the first child, then you shouldn't have more children... and at one failed marriage, you should resign yourself to being single with no chance of companionship...
LOL, well resigning yourself to being single is certainly an option I suppose, but I hope you are being sarcastic. I personally hope there are people out there that place more significance on whether or not their children are being loved and cared for rather than abstract concepts like 'first' or 'second'. The important thing SHOULD be that all children are being cared for regardless of who their parents are, not which child from which relationship is getting the most money. That's just petty in my opinion.
Gimme a break... I prefer to think that I've learned from my experiences and now, I have more to offer because of those experiences...
While I congratulate you on your confidence that you've experienced personal growth...that wasn't really the issue.
My point was, and is, that in reality a man or woman only makes X amount of dollars. If this person has the misfortune of having to pay two different people to raise their children then one is likely to get more than the other. If child A gets 25% of someone's income, then child B gets 25% of what's left it is naturally going to be less. that doesn't mean the second child is loved any less, or treated 'lesser', just that mommy or daddy have less money to go towards child support. Again, anyone looking to enter into a relationship with someone who already pays child support should understand that there is less available money for their potential child support before having children. It's a simple concept, but I guess most people overlook it.
I do have to say I find the amount of people here obsessed with how much money a child from a previous relationship is receiving quite disturbing and very immature. People who are partnered with someone who already has a child should be grateful their SO does pay their child support. Would you really be considering children with a man or woman that didn't?
Get real people... | |
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psssst
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Joined: 6/4/2007
Msg: 186 | |
| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 1/30/2009 3:31:31 PM |
My point was, and is, that in reality a man or woman only makes X amount of dollars. If this person has the misfortune of having to pay two different people to raise their children then one is likely to get more than the other. Misfortune?
Now this sounds awfully close to calling a pregnancy a mistake or an accident.
If you can't figure out that you can't support your children before you have them, then you shouldn't be procreating...
Again, anyone looking to enter into a relationship with someone who already pays child support should understand that there is less available money for their potential child support before having children. It's a simple concept, but I guess most people overlook it. A simpler concept is to not get into a relationship with a person that is child support poor... it obviously shows a lack of maturity and responsibility to go around having kids when you can't afford to support them...
I do have to say I find the amount of people here obsessed with how much money a child from a previous relationship is receiving quite disturbing and very immature. I think you've misunderstood... its not the fact that a child is being supported by his/her father that is the issue... its that a man would think that it's perfectly ok to pay towards a child from someone, and have their current partner wholly support any future kids.
Honestly... what's the issue with living up to your responsibilities and making sure that you are financially stable before you have the kids?
I don't mind taking care of my share of the responsibility for my children... but to allow a man to come into my life and want more children from me when he's not contributing his share to the here and now is outrageous... | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 1/30/2009 5:03:13 PM | "If you can't figure out that you can't support your children before you have them, then you shouldn't be procreating"
And that is what the courts have been saying for years here in Canada. If you are already paying support and can't afford a second family then don't start one. Pretty harsh message for fathers, but too bad. If for example I get married again and the relationship unfortunately does not work out I have a responsbility my kids from both my first and second marriage. I would have to pay support at the full rate for both sets of kids which is right. Even if they were just my step kids I would still have to pay, most likely not the full amount, but the law is there. But we do here like in other threads "I would never do that", uh huh, sure until the divorce happens and the kids standard of living has to be maintained.
This is why I know having run the numbers I can't afford another divorced because having to pay child support for more bio kids or non-bio kids will have a determental effect on the standard of living for my daughter. Since most second marriages end in divorce why should I take that type of chance with my and my daughters future. | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 1/30/2009 8:45:40 PM | Feeling feisty Psssst? 
Ok, what the hell, I'll bite...
Misfortune?
Now this sounds awfully close to calling a pregnancy a mistake or an accident.
If you can't figure out that you can't support your children before you have them, then you shouldn't be procreating...
Then entire sentence was:
"If this person has the misfortune of having to pay two different people to raise their children then one is likely to get more than the other."
Obviously you misunderstood what I meant by misfortune, so let me explain...
I think it would be unfortunate to be paying two different women to raise my children. It's bad enough getting to spend only 1-2 days a week with my daughter so I dread the thought of having to split said time with yet another child from a failed relationship. I suppose since primary custody is nearly automatic for women their focus naturally drifts to the financial. Sadly, many men like myself just wish we could have more time with our kids without depriving the mother of her time, but again...we don't live in a perfect world.
Second point, I would never consider my child a mistake.
Third point, I'm going to assume you meant 'you' in a general sense and that this was not a personal attack since obviously I pay for my one child quite well and am clearly intelligent enough to know what I can and can't handle.
A simpler concept is to not get into a relationship with a person that is child support poor... it obviously shows a lack of maturity and responsibility to go around having kids when you can't afford to support them...
Couldn't agree with you more...
Unfortunately, some people don't think things out clearly before entering into a serious relationship with someone who already has a child. Needless to say your arguement works both ways and shouldn't be directed solely at men.
I think you've misunderstood... its not the fact that a child is being supported by his/her father that is the issue... its that a man would think that it's perfectly ok to pay towards a child from someone, and have their current partner wholly support any future kids.
Honestly... what's the issue with living up to your responsibilities and making sure that you are financially stable before you have the kids?
I don't mind taking care of my share of the responsibility for my children... but to allow a man to come into my life and want more children from me when he's not contributing his share to the here and now is outrageous...
Sorry Psssst, I'm afraid it is you that misunderstood.
I completely agree that every man and woman responsible for creating a child should make sure that the child's needs are met financially. I've never tried to argue that additional children be the sole responsibility of the 'new' parent as that would be an ignorant perspective.
Again, my beef with some of the posters here is the pettiness of comparing the contribution of the man to their child versus children from previous relationships. What matters is that each and every child is getting their needs met, not who is getting the largest share of the man's money. It's behavior such as this that leads many men to view some women in a negative light. | |
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psssst
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Joined: 6/4/2007
Msg: 189 | |
| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 1/31/2009 2:11:36 PM |
Then entire sentence was:
"If this person has the misfortune of having to pay two different people to raise their children then one is likely to get more than the other."
Obviously you misunderstood what I meant by misfortune, so let me explain...
I think it would be unfortunate to be paying two different women to raise my children. I didn’t misunderstand in the least. You think that it is misfortune that would have someone paying child support to two different women.
The term misfortune indicates bad luck – happenstance. Luck and happenstance, aka, mistakes, have nothing to do with having children from different partners. Somewhat akin to shifting the blame for one’s circumstances to somewhere other than where it belongs: with the individual.
Additionally, it is demeaning to infer that you are paying the mother to look after your child. If it were in fact pay, men wouldn’t be able to afford the salary that would be appropriate to the position of responsibility.
Child support is merely living up to one’s responsibility; the exact same responsibility that should be given to each and every child of a person, regardless of whether it is with one partner or more.
Sadly, many men like myself just wish we could have more time with our kids without depriving the mother of her time, but again...we don't live in a perfect world. Here’s an idea… form a stable relationship with someone and then have children… in that order.
I've never tried to argue that additional children be the sole responsibility of the 'new' parent as that would be an ignorant perspective. Your statement that the second child, second marriage etc not getting the commitment and dedication that the first did belies this statement being completely accurate. You are indicating that the bulk of the responsibility lies with the first time parent, and not with the parent that has children from a previous relationship.
So, which is it? That the second gets less if they are reliant on a person that has a child from a first marriage, or that the children from the second are more dependent on the parent that hasn’t had children from the first…
You can’t have it both ways… | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 1/31/2009 11:52:49 PM |
I didn’t misunderstand in the least. You think that it is misfortune that would have someone paying child support to two different women.
Yikes!
That's some ego you have there miss.
I think I know what I meant a little better than you. 
Additionally, it is demeaning to infer that you are paying the mother to look after your child. If it were in fact pay, men wouldn’t be able to afford the salary that would be appropriate to the position of responsibility.
Now you're just getting silly...
You can mince words all you like, but it doesn't change the obvious intent of my statement. You aren't an unintelligent woman, but for reasons that are inappropriate to go into here you are being intentionally obtuse.
Here’s an idea… form a stable relationship with someone and then have children… in that order.
Eureka!
OMG, why didn't I think of this before?!?
Thou art so wise and all knowing milady
You are indicating that the bulk of the responsibility lies with the first time parent, and not with the parent that has children from a previous relationship.
No, I'm not and you know it.
While I've thoroughly enjoyed your venomous tit-for-tat, we are doing a disservice to the OP and this thread by straying waaaaay off topic. I've said all I need to say so I'll leave you to your fishing...good luck with that by the way | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 2/4/2009 7:44:54 PM | well im cause i dont have to pay child support to some one eleses child and the laws are crazy up there in canada especially the guy who is not bilogical not the father of these kids the woman like that up there should be ashamed of themselves if they do that such of matter and sends raises the  :modhammer: | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 2/5/2009 5:05:45 PM | Ya know, I have not started a new fam., don't know if I will, but I can tell you about the support that I am paying and why I feel the way I do about it. I pay more for one then most get for three, Her leaving was a sneek attack after messing around with anyone that would, I am trying like hell to get more time with my little girl and I am going to have to take her back to court for it, she is allways complaining about not having any money and that she can't buy my daughter what she needs, and she is driving a Hummer.
Me being bitter about that does not make me a bad guy, or a dead-beat, it makes me a guy with enough morals and common sence to see what the true prob. is.
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 2/5/2009 5:45:09 PM |
The woman up here suggest they need it...it is in the best interest of the child....they do not get rich off it...it is only right....and they can even be double dipping...i.e. collecting off 2 guys for the same child
This comment makes me absolutely furious. SOME women or maybe even one influential woman suggested she needed it. I'm so tired of the generalizations that tar every person of a type (gender, culture, religion, colour) with the same brush!
I am a woman of Canada and in no way do I support the law that women can sue multiple men for child support for the same child! I didn't even sue my daughter's father for child support because I felt it unethical to do so.
I do think it's fair to have a stepparent pay child support when that man or woman has become the child's parent (adopted, or taken the place of parent where there wasn't one). For example: Joe and Jane split up. Joe continues to be Dad to the children, active in their lives and responsible for them emotionally, physically and financially. In this case Jane's future husbands should not be responsible for child support--the children already have Joe for their responsible parent.
In the case Jane has a child on her own with no father involved and marries Bob, Bob becomes Dad and maybe even adopts the children--this makes him responsible for them in every way. Obviously this would depend on the individual situation and the relationship between Jane's children and Bob.
What I can't understand is why someone who has lived as a part of a family (whether biologically or not) would want to delete the children involved. How could you not choose to continue a relationship with them and be concerned with their welfare? I cannot imagine living with a man and his child and then not keeping in touch with the child, offering support emotional, physical and financial if necessary. I think the whole idea is disgusting.
Nutt | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 2/6/2009 8:41:19 AM | "This comment makes me absolutely furious. SOME women or maybe even one influential woman suggested she needed it. "
These generalizations actually come from women's groups in Canada who say that the woman needs it, its in the best interest of the child and who fight tooth and nail to not have the law amended.
"I do think it's fair to have a stepparent pay child support when that man or woman has become the child's parent (adopted, or taken the place of parent where there wasn't one). "
The way the law is structure now if Joe wasn't paying support but was still active in the children's lives then Bob would be on the hook for the entire amount of support.
"What I can't understand is why someone who has lived as a part of a family (whether biologically or not) would want to delete the children involved."
The law does not provide for any parental rights post divorce. He can still be involved but he has no legal leg to stand on.
"How could you not choose to continue a relationship with them and be concerned with their welfare? I cannot imagine living with a man and his child and then not keeping in touch with the child, offering support emotional, physical and financial if necessary. I think the whole idea is disgusting."
The problem is that we are forced by the law to pay support, it is not up to us. I could see myself helping out emotionally, physically and financially but I object to the goverment forcing that obligation on me through the present structure of the law.
The law needs to be changed but first you have to convince the women's groups who fight every amendment to the Divorce Act since they firmly embedded within our Federal Government and ministries. | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 2/6/2009 12:42:31 PM | I know what the law is--I've clearly stated that I don't think it's any more fair than you do, not just in this post, but in every post.
I'm saying that I'm tired of you indicating that all women or women in general are advocating for these inequalities. Did it ever occur to you that those groups are in the minority and just happen to be vocal and willing to go to the mat for what they want wheres the more reasonable people are busy living our lives? Also, I don't believe the majority of women in the situation where they could doubledip choose to do so.
Making generalizations like you do constantly is a prejudice against women just as their are prejudices towards natives, black folks, buddhists, etc. It's time to stop hating everyone in a particular group and start forming an opinion of people as individuals
Nutt | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 2/6/2009 12:46:17 PM | "Making generalizations like you do constantly is a prejudice against women just as their are prejudices towards natives, black folks, buddhists, etc. It's time to stop hating everyone in a particular group and start forming an opinion of people as individuals"
That's a strectch.
It's fine to say that a minority are vocal but the law is there for everyone to use. It is not a statement against women but against a law that is not equitable and could be applied at the discretion of the custodial parent. | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 2/6/2009 1:21:41 PM | | i find some of the comments in this forum laughable,,, so many people saying men who dont pay for there kids are low life, im 24 and have a 3 year old daughter im in a low paying job which 25% of my wages o to the tax man so he can improve london...(yeah i live up north) then 41% goes to the ex for my kid,,, i have the biggest debt in the world as i cant afford to support myself, i have a car which i need to get to work so getting rid isnt an option and a house which i need to pay rent on, i live alone and just dont have enough money coming in yet the ex is now married both in excellent jobs and like to rub it in my face that the money they get off me supports there drinking habits every weekend, , , , they have a mortgage 2 flash cars and a dog on the mat, , , its hard not to begrudge giving them the money ... i have gone to the courts and asked if i could spend the same amount on clothes and essentials for my kid and prove what i have bought with receipts instead of them getting my money but the answer was no and they wonder why some guys wont pay...... typical uk government.. A JOKE | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 2/7/2009 7:47:40 AM | First of all lets just take alook at our court system. It is a joke when it comes to child support and custody issues. what makes anyone think that the mother is the better parent? Why do we (men) have to jump through hoops in order to claim our rights? I have one child shes 3 and my child support payments is greater than my house and car payment put together! 1200.00 a month to a women who proved to everyone she makes poor choices is way to much money. We men continue to be kicked in the face when it comes to this. My Ex remarried to a man who pays less than 600.00 a month in child support and has not earned a income in 14 months.. Who do you think is paying is support. You think the child support is not enough and all the while you never take in what other money is spent by the father on his child, I still have to provide a wardrobe for my daughter, Shoes, Pants, shirts, etc. I still have to feed her, I still have to take her out for fun days which all cost money. WTF are you ****en about you are luckey you get what you get! And furthermore if we choose to get involved with someone and we want to make it for life, Then get out of our way, We too have a right to happiness. Why can't we have all the child support put into a banking account and give the mothers a debit card so we can see what you spend our childrens money on! Give us the statement at the end of the month.. anuthing that is spent on your sorry ass should be deducted from the nexts months support payment. How about that, I am thinking if you only spent the support on the child then there would be no money issues when it comes to the childs needs. You want us to provide you with a style of living and forego any life we deserve to have. What gives you that right? in 2006 85% of all child rights went to the mothers as a default action. Things need to change in this country. By reducing support payments maybe then you would get off you ass and try to make a better life for you and your child, Most men have to work more than one job to pay bills and it takes away from our time with our children.
I would say for you to move on with your life and try not to gain any support from men alike, you will always loose this fight. all you want is to see us suffer as long as you can... Get a Life! | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 2/7/2009 8:12:22 AM | hotinnaples, who are you directing your post to exactly? Because it's filled with generalizations and downright bitterness!
I'm sorry you had (or are continuing to have) such a rough go with your ex. Obviously you're angry. (BTW are you aware that child support is supposed to include clothing?) Perhaps your ex could just pack your daughter some clothes for her time with you?
I have to disagree with your idea of putting child support into a bank account and providing a debit card and statements. When a woman goes grocery shopping should she itemize every portion of green pepper, cereal or jug of milk that she assumes or estimates the child might eat/drink? That would be a bit over the top. "Most" divorced parents that I associate with don't have this kind of anger over child support. The children are well looked after through financial support of *both* Mom & Dad. I have divorced friends.....not one of them is unemployed.
You stated "In 2006 85% of all child rights went to the mothers as a default action." That statement didn't make sense to me. "Child rights?" Which rights are you referring to? Could you please post the reference of your stat? It may help to clear up the confusion.
Lastly, my son's father and I get a long extremely well. I'm hardly out to "make him suffer". That would be an extraordinary waste of time and energy on my part. I want my son to have happy and loving parents "both" ways. So while you seem very stuck on your anger toward your ex, please be aware that your generalizations aren't going to do you any good in the long term. | |
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| Men who ?@#*& About Child Support and then go and start a new family???
Posted: 2/7/2009 8:46:13 AM | hotinapples, I am truly sorry for what your experiences have been with the system. It is indeed unfairly biased towards mothers. The issue of child support is difficult. In the best of world, when two adults determine they can no longer live together, the children would not have to adjust their standard of living, but perhaps they do need to make that adjustment. In a perfect world, we would all have good relationships after the split geared towards ensuring that the basic needs of our children were met (emotional, physical, financial). In a perfect world, everyone would be reasonable and nobody would be angry and vengeful. We do not live in a perfect world.
The courts are slowly starting to realize and recognize that making judgements on gender is unfair, that children need both their parents and should have the right to have a relationship with both parents on equal terms (custody and access). In joint physical custody (which I feel should be the norm), child support is paid on a set off basis so the actual payment of the amount of support is not a hardship on the parent paying it. For instance, my daughter's father pays 244/month based on annual income of between 90 and 100K. The amount doesn't have much of an impact on his ability to live and provide for his family and it does help to enable me to provide for her. I often pick up the tabs on items that are moving between the homes (snow suits, jackets, boots, shoes, medication etc...) and don't ask or expect him to pay any additional monies for that. When the agreement first went into effect, we were making about the same money so there was no child support payable.
If the amount you paid was lower, would you still feel the same way about paying it? | |
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