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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 8:57:52 AM | | I just need some type of proof.All you have have done is inforce the big bang theory which makes a lot of sense. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 9:22:46 AM | Thankyou for you comment Bethany. I am glad that at least someone agrees with what I say. And you are right many people are brain-whashed by the Tv. They only know what the TV tells them. We live in a democracy. For it to trully be a Democracy we must learn all we can about our world and take part in making it better. Its not a democracy when most people dont vote or do anything, they just let the country run by the few corrupt souls at the top who tell them what to do.
You seemed to not have fiqured out how to highlight previous comments, it took me awile to notice too. But when you are posting a message look to the right you see the word quote in brackets, put that before the quote and put the /quote at the end. Make sure you include the brackets. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 9:25:07 AM | from Nice2phku:
If God exists, and that is my contention, then It exist beyond all dimension and is other than his creator.
So god had a creator then..
If god "exists" beyond all dimension, then he exists beyond this dimension. How can you know that something exists in this dimension if it supposedly exists BEYOND it, it is BEYOND grasping. Yet in your previous post before your last, god was then supposed to be "energy"... which is not beyond this universe or "dimension" as you put it....
I'm beginning to think that you are simply employing argumentum verbosium, the explanation from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_verbosity
Argumentum verbosium
Proof by verbosity is also used colloquially in forensic debate to describe a logical fallacy (sometimes called "argumentum verbosium") that tries to persuade by overwhelming those considering an argument with such a volume of material that the argument sounds plausible, superficially appears to be well-researched, and that is so laborious to untangle and check supporting facts that the argument is allowed to slide by unchallenged. It is the fallacy epitomized by the familiar quote: "If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, then baffle them with your bullshit."
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 9:41:06 AM | So god had a creator then..
If god "exists" beyond all dimension, then he exists beyond this dimension. How can you know that something exists in this dimension if it supposedly exists BEYOND it, it is BEYOND grasping. Yet in your previous post before your last, god was then supposed to be "energy"... which is not beyond this universe or "dimension" as you put it....
I'm beginning to think that you are simply employing argumentum verbosium, the explanation from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_verbosity
see,the problem of knowing if god exists is that the proof is internal.it is within that of the soul.the question is ,do you have a soul? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 9:49:47 AM |
do you have a soul
Define soul.
By all definitions that I have heard of in the past no, I have not seen any evidence that souls exist. I suppose you may want to accuse me of not having a "soul", but then again, whether I had one or not, how would you know either way? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 9:58:48 AM | They have been tried. And they have failed, So we just give up and not try again. They were like windows 95, they wernt even close to perfect. They need to be refined. Comunism failed big time. When you here Utopia, everybody thinks Communism. I dont see any Utopia in Communism. For one there is no human rights, a Utopia would have it. The main heart of a Utopia would be to all have rights, all have food, all have shelter, all have healthcare, and all live in peace. Don;t you see this as something to strive for. An utlimate goal. A future hope that everything will turn out fine. The only reason why we can't have a Utopia is because people like you think we can never have it. Pessimism is not a survival trait. If we are going to save this planet we need Optimism.
This is very true except not all ways of utopia have been tried... I think we need something different from communism and capitalism but similar to both... Work harder if you want more, but nobody should be allowed to go hungry as a result of anothers waste or excess.
see,the problem of knowing if god exists is that the proof is internal.it is within that of the soul.the question is ,do you have a soul?
Your evidence is internal you mean... Proof is something which can be confirmed for others... See, your perspective of what you believe God to be all about could totally conflict with mine... Who would be right? Same goes for those who don't have a perspective on God (I guess their perspective on God wouldn't include God)... Many even believe they have a soul but don't believe in God... All belief systems have people who have enough evidence to satisfy themselves and maybe even a few others, but not one of us has any proof .
Define soul.
I know this wasn't pointed at me but I like to think the soul is just the mind... It's the you which can't be found with material tools. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 10:41:45 AM | | Sage: You ask what is certainty. Ok For everyone. Certainty is what happened then and there. In life there is only one truth to true events. Truth equals certainty to any rational human who was there to view it or a human who has seen physical proof! The truth is the Twin Towers fell and I am certain that happened. I am not in NY but I seen physical evidence. I am certain that Dinasours were on the Earth cause the truth is we found physical evidence. Now I can admitt unlike most of you that I dont know what happen then but I do know something happen. If you can agree SOMETHING happen then there is a truth to be found. We know as humas that there is only one truth to what happens to anyone. Now about this God thing. Then please someone explain to me how this all happen? Was the Earth created in 7 days like the Christian God or did it do what the Muslims think it did (which is not the Earth being made in 7 days) lol tell me. Someone tell me what God looks like? lol you cant. People just argue that "they know he is real" when the truth is there has been no physical proof that there is any higher power of any sort. Now I am not asking you to believe me but to do some homework past your personal belief. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 11:20:38 AM | Stonestongue:
Many even believe they have a soul but don't believe in God
Excellent. A valid and logical point. Assuming some kind of "soul" does exist, that does not automatically prove the existence of a deity. The two (soul and a deity) are not necessarily mutually inclusive. Proving one has a soul is one thing, proving there is a god BECAUSE we have a soul or vice versa is an entirely different can 'o worms. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 12:27:16 PM | | there is no scientific evidence that we have a soul. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 12:30:40 PM | Nice question. You could write a book about that, no, wait, many books, no, wait, 3,000 years worth of books!
I think there is, but probably not in a form we do very well with.
At one level, there is life on earth. Our creator here is the earth herself. Note the "herself", that would refer to Gaia if you think of our planet as a being with a name. Gaia created us, sure enough. We spring from the earth, this place, as all life does here. Some believe, especially aboriginals, that Gaia is conscious, a true living being, just not conscious or a being in the way we are.
Something I like about that is that a lot of theology puts earth as some dead, inhospitable rock where good and evil battles rage ....and if wer'e good, we get off it. It seems a very male, testosterone-driven idea behind all that. ... that we are here to battle. It could be that we have just this one life, we live in a very beautiful and majestic place, "good and evil" are just concepts and value judgments we have, and we probably a lot better off sharing the wealth, giving everyone a chance at making this one life a good one, stewarding this magnificent place, etc..... and just dealing with our own issues.
Another level, there is the solar system, the galaxy, the universe ...things so vast and so old and so amazing that we are such a teensy, tiny, itty bitty part of .....hard to believe that the earth is the center of the universe, the crown of creation, etc. and the buck stops here. If you've ever been way out of the city into the country and seen that bright, starry sky in all its glory ......... it's humbling.
Randomness vs. design ......... there is logic in everything, everywhere you go, 1+1=2, logic is embedded in existence, so nothing is truly random because all the logic combines to create order (and disorder) ...things "happen" due to a 1,000 natural laws and could happen "randomly" only in accordance with those .... drop a pencil here, it doesn't fall "up", it will float only under weightless conditions but not drop down under weightless conditions or fall "up" in a gravitational one ....
I think that as entropy tends to bring the material world into disorder by separating things down into their basic elements and recycling the matter and energy, there is an equal and opposite force in the universe that creates order, too. That can only be God.
And one day, the study of God won't be religion, it will be science. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 5:10:32 PM |
And one day, the study of God won't be religion, it will be science
That my friends is the very foundation of my belief in God--Something had to trigger the Big Bang and get this universe started. Logic dictates that the Big Bang could not have just come from nothing. Something can't come from nothing. Logic, science and reasoning have confirmed my faith in God, and His existence. I have no doubts not because a preacher told me so, but because of scientific reasoning. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 5:36:17 PM | That my friends is the very foundation of my belief in God--Something had to trigger the Big Bang and get this universe started.
The big bang is one theory in regard to how the universe started, and NO scientist that I have ever heard of has theorized that god started it all. Another theory is that this universe is but one in an infinite cycle of bangs and crunches, check this link out:
http://www.actionbioscience.org/newfrontiers/steinhardt.html
The cyclic universe model
Cyclic Universe: The Big Bang was not the beginning of time because the universe undergoes endless cycles of evolution in infinite space and time.
In this context, a new paradigm has been recently proposed by Paul Steinhardt (Princeton) and Neil Turok (Cambridge) —the cyclic universe— that turns the conventional picture topsy-turvy.2 (Perhaps the model should be called an old paradigm since it reinvigorates ancient cosmic mythologies and philosophies, albeit using the tools of 21st century physics.) In this picture:
*space and time exist forever
*the big bang is not the beginning of time; rather, it is a bridge to a pre-existing contracting era
*the Universe undergoes an endless sequence of cycles in which it contracts in a big crunch and re-emerges in an expanding big bang, with trillions of years of evolution in between
*the temperature and density of the universe do not become infinite at any point in the cycle; indeed, they never exceed a finite bound (about a trillion trillion degrees)
*no inflation has taken place since the big bang; the current homogeneity and flatness were created by events that occurred before the most recent big bang
*the seeds for galaxy formation were created by instabilities arising as the Universe was collapsing towards a big crunch, prior to our big bang
The new model provides insight into some questions unanswered by the Big Bang theory.
The prospects for an alternative cosmology that is so different from the well-established convention would seem extremely dim. Yet, the cyclic model recoups all of the successful predictions of the big bang/inflationary theory and has sufficient additional predictive power to address many questions which the big bang/inflationary model does not address at all:
* What occurred at the initial singularity?
* What is the ultimate fate of the Universe?
* What is the role of dark energy and the recently observed cosmic acceleration?
* Does time, and the arrow of time, exist before the big bang? or after the big crunch?
The "big bang" you and I are in may just be one of a series of infinite big bangs. This is only one other theory, another is called "big bounce":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce
Something can't come from nothing.
So where did god come from?
He is something is he not?
As previously asked by other posters in the thread, if you believe that god is eternal, why is it so hard to imagine the universe also being eternal? I have provided a possible theory that puts the universe in the position of being eternal.
Logic, science and reasoning have confirmed my faith in God, and His existence. I have no doubts not because a preacher told me so, but because of scientific reasoning.
What scientific reasoning is that? I can understand if you have a personal faith because you believe it to be so, but when you claim that science and logic confirm your faith in god, I like to ask why and how.. colour me curious | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 6:16:32 PM | Just so this thread doesn't get diverted to cosmology, here is a pertinent thread already started on the subject of cycles and bangs...
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/7320687datingPostpage3.aspx
I brought into play the cyclic theory by Turok and Steinhardt under a previous username. Might be appropriate to continue cosmological discussions there. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 6:40:51 PM |
...other than his creator.
A Fortiori,
Okay, you caught me in a typo, err... should read is "other than his creation." However, to argue a point. What is to say that whatever we perceive is nothing more than an experiment in a petri dish, but; still one would want to argue, then who is the creator of the creator. If you ascribe the universe is eternal, than you give it as having the qualities of the god. Perhaps, it has intelligence. Perhaps this eternal universe you harp about is your creator. Might be you are correct, there is no after life and this all you have. Then again, perhaps you are wrong. Only a lonely atheist would make a religion our his atheism, or perhaps, just perhaps, he is really an agnostic. By the way the Greek word for γνόσίς meaning knowledge and in the early Christian tradition applied to those who believe you could have a personal knowledge of God. God is a personal experience not, an outer construct to be debate. God is to believed, or not believed. An agnostic person is mere one who has no personal knowledge of God. I think, thou, protest too much. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 6:51:19 PM | If you ascribe the universe is eternal, than you give it as having the qualities of the god.
Sorry, I don't think "eternity" is a strictly "god-like" quality. A universe, in theory can be eternal without characterizing said universe as "god-like".
Only a lonely atheist would make a religion our his atheism, or perhaps, just perhaps, he is really an agnostic.
Quite frankly, how would you know what a "lonely atheist" as you put it would do? Ever been one? Neither have I..
You are simply demonizing atheists because it looks to me like you've run out of arguments.. okie dokie.
God is a personal experience not, an outer construct to be debate.
Could very well be a personal experience, but then again, you've been debating god as an outer construct throughout this thread.... the above is a rather hypocritical statement, wouldn't you say?
I think, thou, protest too much.
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 7:33:25 PM |
You seem to have misunderstood my point. We are all free to discuss and share our beliefs, but when you state there is only this one way, and that's yours you move beyond the parameters of discussion.
When I say there is only one way. That is my view in this discussion.
You cut out the rest of what I said. What of the democratic systems we have now? Do you agree with them? Are they the best thus far? Worse? Do you believe that the various Human Rights Codes that (ideally) protect the rights of all to religion, speech, and conscience are flawed?
I am sory everybody If I got into politics and went off topic. I will just answer this question and be done with politics here.
I agree with democracy, but i beleive it needs to be refined. I dont know what exactly would be the best, I can only speculate, but I do have ideas that I think are on the right track. First of all I am a socialist not a communist. As for democracy I beleive there should be rules as to what type of government should be allowed to run for office. For example democracy failed when it allowed Nazism to take office. The type of governments allowed to take office must alow, Full Human and animal rights, food for all, housing for all, healthcare for all, education for all, and a high respect for the enivronment. Also I do not think that there should be one leader, or even tens of senators voting for laws. A true democracy would have thousands of senators or better yet all people who have knowlege of a ceartain subject can vote on it. This would greatly eliminate corruption. Also i think capitalism should be greatly limited. No one should be allowed to get super rich. This only creates power and corruption. Our goal should not be to make as much money as posible but to learn and grow and better ourselves. This is just my oppinion and my oppion is always being refined, thanks to people like you romanticoptimist for showing me where I am wrong. Peace.
Back to God.
All this talk about dimension and stuff is totally irrelevent along with this whole discussion.
The Answer is simply I dont Know. And all will never know, even if God himself came to you and told you he was God, you would never know with 100% certainty that this was God talking to you. You have to be a God to know there is a God.
romanticoptimist its just my oppinon as an agnostic OK. No hard feelings.
H.O.P.E Help-Our-Planet-Earth | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 8:10:33 PM | | to answer ur question op,yes there is and everytime u take a breath u prove he is real by ur own admission without knowing it.When u close ur eyes at night u r acting on faith that u will wake up tomorrow.Faith is the substance of things HOPED for and the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN.Each persons level of faith is measured to him accordingly by the great I AM because he is the one that created u for the purpose of pleasing him. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/31/2008 8:11:43 PM | | Also Bethany or anybody else interested, you should read my Thread in Politics -Why we shouldnt eat meat. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 4/1/2008 10:04:29 PM | I like this Hindu quote, coming from the Upanishad says, "Now there was Shvetaketu Aruneya. To him his father said, 'That which is the finest essence---this whole world has that as its soul. That is Reality. That is Atman. That art thou, Shevetaketu.'
'Do you, Sir, cause me to understand even more'
"So be it, my dear,' said he. . . 'Bring hither a fig.'
'Here it is, Sir'
'Divide it.'
'It is divided, Sir.'
'What do you see there?'
'Those rather fine seeds, Sir.'
'Of these, please divide one.'
'It is divided, Sir.'
What do you see there?'
'Nothing at all, Sir?'
Then he said to him: 'Verily, my dear the finest essence which you do not perceive---verily, my dear, from that finest essence this great Nyagrodha (sacred fig) tree thus arises. Believe me, my dear.' said he, 'that which is the finest essence---this whole world has that as it soul. That is Reality. That is Atman. That art thou, Shevetaketu.'"
MAN'S RELIGIONS, by John B. Noss, p. 100, Macmillan Publishing Co. Inc. New York, c. 1974. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 4/1/2008 11:20:49 PM | ^^^^^^^^^
'Verily, my dear the finest essence which you do not perceive---verily, my dear, from that finest essence this great Nyagrodha (sacred fig) tree thus arises. Believe me, my dear.' said he, 'that which is the finest essence---this whole world has that as it soul. That is Reality. That is Atman. That art thou, Shevetaketu.'"
That is a nice entertaining fable, but it doesn't quite answer A fortiori's criticism of your rhetoric. You are not seriously suggesting that DNA is the finest essence. All that the fable demonstrates is that Shvetaketu Aruneya's father didn't have much of a knowledge of botany and microbilogy. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 4/2/2008 12:39:38 AM | They had a concept of the atom, so why not more knowledge, they were great philosopher. Perhaps the Aryans, t o thenorth who invaded India, had even greater knowledge. Recent digs in Russia suggest such knowledge, as cool and heating system that, we as modern humans do not know how to replicate. Maybe we originated from a very advance civilization yet to be reveal and only a great dark age erased much of such knowledge. We do not know everything of human civilization. As we speak, Nation Geographic has given it support to help dig in Bosnia to determine the age of their pyramids, estimated to be twelve thousand years old. About 17,000 years ago a great rising of the oceans flooded may civilization that are now under water on continental shelves. We do not have the complete picture. Indeed, that is the fault of humans to make assumptions on partial data. We often say, "This is the way it was, only ten years later having to revises our conclusion. That is not logical. Science itself is away subject to change by it pure definition. As new data is received, new theories have to be formulated.
I believe human civilization has uneven rises and falls, much like tidal currents, only in slow motion. The idea, that we are the most advance civilization is premature. Maybe, we are indeed the ancestor of ancient astronauts. Only in the last 100 years has the human race even come close to prior civilizations. The Hindu knew of the atom as the building block of all things. DNA is no more that what make a seed a fig, or a mustard plant. We do not give ancients the credit they deserve. Greek civilization borrowed must of their know from the Hindu/Aryan races. These people were not stupid, they were brilliant and would hold their own with any modern age human. Things are alway more complicated then they seem, even the search for God. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 4/2/2008 1:46:17 AM | Post #127
They are interesting speculations of a "Chariots of Gods" kind, but the existence of god is also a speculation, complicated by the certitude of some that a particular god is the creator and driver of this particular universe that we seem to inhabit.
The difficulty is that there are so many different contradictory speculations about the nature of god's existence / non existence that one is at a loss as to which particular explanation holds the truth. All I am seeing is a number of people in these fora saying not only "The truth is out there" but are touting that their particular truth is THE truth and the ONLY truth, even though they only offer a truth that one must take on faith.
Things are alway more complicated then they seem, even the search for God
Things are also sometimes less complicated than they are sometimes made out to be....perhaps the simplest answer is that there may be no god/s, at least of the kind that are being promoted on this ball of dirt called Earth. All else (about the existence of god) is pretty much unsubstantiated speculation. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 4/2/2008 11:07:25 AM | chelloveck,
We could dispute the existence of God to the end of time, and perhaps we will, if reincarnation is true, yet; either way a non belief in God is a valid as a belief in God. My question to you is where did matter come from? And do not give me this theory that it as always been, because then; you are ascribing the same properties to matter as you would a God; it is eternal, it has alway been and will alway be in exist. It created itself out of nothing and it is the prime mover.
On the contrary, I say God is the prime mover, the creator of matter and anti-matter, time space and etc. How we came upon this planet, who knows. Perhaps we Mars could no longer sustain us any more and we had to move. Or perhaps greated DNA and seeded the universe.
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 4/2/2008 11:44:05 AM | I don't understand the need to ask the question, "where did matter come from" since by the shear definition of the question (what was here before anything was here), it's impossible to answer.
As an atheist, I'm perfectly content with, "It simply is". Personally, I believe the Universe has ALWAYS existed and that we call the 'big bang' is simply the universe fully retracted (winter) and renewing itself (spring).
Why are people arguing so Vehemently? With such Anger or desperation to be right when there will never be a 'right' answer?
People have defined "god" as everything from a White, long-haired man to 'the force' from star wars to 'the energy of quantum physics which guide the mutations of DNA and allow for change'. None of these are right.... and all of these are right.
James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth, Outer spiral arm of the Milky Way, our universe, but all of THAT on an atom of the flee of a really, really, really large dog that we have dyslexically identified as 'god'. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 4/2/2008 12:50:25 PM | Debating is fun, for most people; I do not see it as arguing. It is a way of getting our point across, and for some it is a competition, as to I win debating points. No correct answer exists as to believe in an eternal God or eternal matter is a stalemate. Christian want to persuade others in believing by quoting scriptures. Scripture of any type is not proof. It is a matter choice in what you believe. Some want to save your soul from hell, I do not believe in hell. I believe incarnation; you keep living repeatedly until you become enlightened. It does not matter if you agree with me or not. In the end, it is either nothing, or more life.
I believe the spirit is just as real as the physical, or I believe in the Meta physical, that which lies alongside the physical world. To Plato, in the allegory of the cave, we are mere reflections of the "ideal"; that out there, somewhere is the perfect model of everything, and we are mere shadow, or imperfections of the ideal.
Most people have to ascribe to the idea that there was a beginning and there is an end to matter and the only reality is the spiritual. To express you ideas is a way of confirming you belief system. I personally have been dead and have been to the other side. I have a personal knowledge that only few experience. I am not here to convert anybody. My views have changed greatly over the years as I have matured. I was an existentialist, now I am more Kantian and Jungian in my beliefs. One experiences the world from the only reality, the self. To say I think, therefore I am, is inadequate; I think, I experience, I perceive; therefore, I am.
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