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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/20/2008 1:58:31 PM | No one needs your Jesus to live a life that is fair, loving, respectful and NON-judgmental. Actually, I think a Christian who shows all of these things is the exception.
The same could be said about atheists
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/20/2008 2:43:57 PM | Yeah, right, the mere fact of the existence of Christian theologists makes the whole doctrine of Christianity (or any other doctrine for that matter) undoubtable, and those who question it are to be assumed ingenuine. What else is new?
I am not a theologian. I just speak Hebrew fluently... dream, love and cuss in Hebrew. Which is pretty darn close to Aramaic. I don't care about your generations of theologians who thought they understood Hebrew and/or Aramaic and would burn the books that disagreed with their understanding, together with their authors sometimes. I know what I know, and this is what every kid on the street in Jerusalem knows. It's plain and simple.
I am not a Gnostic, as is pretty easy to read from my post to anyone with a dash of open mind.
Very few Jews proclaiming themselves to be Jews are recorded by The Romans to have been stoned to death by the Sanhedron. It is a fair and reasonable consideration that the Nazarene articulated more.
Go read your Bible. The part where the chief priest tore his clothes. I could have fetched the quote for you, but why? We all know I am not genuine.
not just "a son of God", but "the son of God".
And how precizely do you say "THE son of God" in Aramaic? Huh?
the expression "בר־אלהין" (bar-elahîn) is excluded by a study by Doug Kutilek that explains that that phrase means "son of the gods", not "Son of God".
BS. I am not going to get into the ethymology of the Aramaic "elahin" ("אלהין") or Hebrew "Elohim", some say indeed the plural suffix means that historically, but it's beyond question that this very word was used by Jesus's contemporaries to mean the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Yawn... | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/20/2008 9:03:21 PM | | I personally have never believed in any sort of "higher" power, and I find it more and more difficult to now that I'm an Anthropology major. But by no means do I want to convince others that there is no such thing. I'm one of those firm believers in if you believe in it, good for you. Just don't pressure me to believe it to. So it goes both ways. Believers shouldn't try and "convert" so-called atheists and vice-versa; We atheists shouldn't try and convince believers there is no such thing. Just my humble opinion, which everyone is entitled to, religious or not. | |
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Posted: 5/21/2008 2:28:47 AM | BS. I am not going to get into the ethymology of the Aramaic "elahin" ("אלהין") or Hebrew "Elohim", some say indeed the plural suffix means that historically, but it's beyond question that this very word was used by Jesus's contemporaries to mean the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
you are correct my brother.i am not educated as you are in this way.i do believe however that the lord gave us many ways to find him.the way i found him is quite likely just as powerfull as many others.as the lord created mant languages for us to speak and many cultures for us to live,the ways of following his word must also vastly differ. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/21/2008 5:46:03 AM | abc6587
Yeah, right, the mere fact of the existence of Christian theologists makes the whole doctrine of Christianity (or any other doctrine for that matter) undoubtable, and those who question it are to be assumed ingenuine. What else is new?
What is new is the manner in which I am presenting factual academic data for cinsideration instead of blidning taking the word of someone because they can cuss in Hebrew, Yiddish or what have you...
I am not a theologian. I just speak Hebrew fluently... dream, love and cuss in Hebrew. Which is pretty darn close to Aramaic. I don't care about your generations of theologians who thought they understood Hebrew and/or Aramaic and would burn the books that disagreed with their understanding, together with their authors sometimes.
Why can you not simply address the facts without imposing your martyr complex upon the readers? Why must you melodramatically force the notion that anyone wants to burn books (or people - God forbid!)?
I referred to Rabbi Ginberg of Temple Beth Isreal in New York, a very good family friend of mine with whom I spend endless hours in discussion of Midrash and Torah to better edify my Catholicism, being the heir of Hebrew spiritual authority.
I am not a Gnostic, as is pretty easy to read from my post to anyone with a dash of open mind.
Not really all that clear since you are using Gnostic cosmological expositions to leverage you otherwise empty points. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/21/2008 7:50:56 AM | | Rebecca... 1) you are factually incorrect on many counts, 2) accuse your opponent of dishonesty right off the bat, 3) engage in verbal oneupmanship, 4) repeat the word "academic" as a mantra when confronted with your factual errors, 5) engage in unsolicited amateur psychoanalysis of your opponent, 6) are I think subtly antisemitic, and dropping a rabbi's name out of context and not followed by any factual data that you've learned from him does not change and in fact sort of reinforces this impression, 7) did not answer me on any of my points except the ones that appeared "easy" to you, 8) your glass is overflowing. Was I married to you once? I'll have to ignore you. Sorry, just don't see one bit of open mind here... Pity when academia fails to teach people the culture of dispute. Assuming you've actually been involved in academia before you got into real estate. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/21/2008 2:17:20 PM | ABC SAID:
I say all religions are wrong, because they hold an infinitesimally small part of the truth (a hair on the elephant's left rear foot for example) and dare to define the elephant by that one hair.
In your glass-half-full/empty analogy, their religious glass has one drop of water and they claim it's overflowing.
What if we all come to this world just so we might hopefully get hold of that one drop of water, or that one hair? Would it matter then which religion (if any) helped us in our way? I do think all religions help some, otherwise they'd have no followers... though they are a double-edged sword, granted.
Sure, get that drop of water if you like or feel the need but RELIGION isn't needed for that. The specific god or gods of any religion are simply made-up concepts trying to explain the unexplainable. I don't have a problem with simply saying "I don't know".
"God" IS the universe.
Ah, that's interesting. My ears stand up on the top of my head when a self-proclaimed atheist offers his own definition of God. The question is.... does your God have conscience or spirit? Or is he more like a pile of junk?
The human definition of "god" is simply a personification of the universe. Something created to explain things. The idea that "god is everything" isn't MY invention, but if taken literally, then it becomes synonymous with the "universe".
No, this "god" does not have a conscience or a spirit. Does an atom have a spirit? Does a slug? How about a rock? Maybe a barrel of oil has a spirit...
I also wouldn't call the universe a "pile of junk". . . "God" ... The Universe, simply is.
As for "Satan" being "God"... It's one in the same thing. There is no god without Satan... no 'good' without 'evil'... no male without female. In my view of the universe/god, it is EVERYTHING. There's isn't "less" god in Satan, there is exactly as much god in Satan as there is a rock, or the Pope, or President Bush.
I grew up as a Lutheran Christian, but grew away from that by the time I was 16 and abandoned Christianity by the time I was 22. With time and distance, I look back at my younger self and am a bit embarrassed by what I used to believe.
James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/21/2008 6:53:51 PM | Don't be embarrassed - what you grew up with helped make you who you are today
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/21/2008 7:02:56 PM | | sorry abc,didnt even look at your pic.thats sister noy brother....oopsy. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/21/2008 7:36:06 PM | I believe in God , I pray to Jesus sometimes ,give thanks and never feel the need for "proof" of his excistance...Just like the fish never needs to look for water , I never need to look for Him. Like the farmer that plants in the spring , he is doing so in faith..no garentees for a harvest..but he does it anyways , I too believe in faith and have had many of my prayers answered to the " T " . I dont have proof of whether he excists or not and I guess thats where we get our freewill...my freewill is to believe..
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/22/2008 10:36:19 AM | abc6587; where on 5/21/2008 ; you wrote:
Was I married to you once? I'll have to ignore you.
Yes, ABC, I was hoping to hide our orientations from the pristine eyes of the readers - but yes were married. But you kept ignoring me so I left you.
Sorry, just don't see one bit of open mind here... Pity when academia fails to teach people the culture of dispute.
Don't be so hard on yourself ABC - we all still love you inspite of... NO, because of your shortcomings!
I had hoped to keep this from becoming personal - and I am sorry you feel it necessary to take this into the realm of personal slurs and attacks.
Especially where you stoop to playing the socio-religeon card. Because I disagreed with you, you have melodramatically tried to imply that I or my compatriates would like to burn your books or you - (frankly sounds a little paranoid pschitzophrenic were it not for the holocaust reference) and now you try to call me anti-semitic.
Oh no - look out for the big bad jew burning, anti-semite - better shun her for disagreeing and excercising free thought and open communications.
5) engage in unsolicited amateur psychoanalysis of your opponent
OPPONENT? No ABC, WE ARE ALL YOUR FRIENDS... NOBODY WANTS TO HURT YOU... PUT THE SHARP OBJECTS DOWN AND STEP AWAY FROM THE EDGE.
and dropping a rabbi's name out of context and not followed by any factual data that you've learned from him does not change and in fact sort of reinforces this impression,
Of course it does. The fact that I celebrate Jewish holidays with a family of Orthodox Jews, the Patriarch of which I have studied under, BECAUSE I DISAGREED WITH YOU reinforces that I am a whatever the hell you want to brand me.
did not answer me on any of my points except the ones that appeared "easy" to you
THEY ARE ALL EASY TO ME - I only have so much time because I HAVE A LIFE!!! | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/22/2008 10:41:09 AM | I have to agree with Rebecca. Plus, abc's suggestion that:
are I think subtly antisemitic
Is completely ridiculous. Frankly, I'm irritated by the witch hunts which attempt to find an anti-Semite under every bed. I'm sure someone could call me an anti-Semite merely for suggesting that. But in reality, the "anti-Semite" card is usually just something that one throws out when he or she has nothing substantial left to say. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/22/2008 10:44:33 AM | Ladies and Gentlemen... "Can't We All Just Get Along" (Rhetorical)
James 1:19-27
19 Know this, my dear brothers: everyone should be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath,
20 for the wrath of a man does not accomplish the righteousness of God.
21 Therefore, put away all filth and evil excess and humbly welcome the word that has been planted in you and is able to save your souls.
22 Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24 He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25 But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/22/2008 11:23:05 AM | Seattlerain1 wrote:
Sure, get that drop of water if you like or feel the need but RELIGION isn't needed for that. The specific god or gods of any religion are simply made-up concepts trying to explain the unexplainable. I don't have a problem with simply saying "I don't know"
That's akin saying music or poetry or art isn't needed for that. Can you get your drop of water without religion? Sure. Should you strive for it? Not neceessarily. Different strokes for different folks, more than one way to the mountaintop, TIMTOWTDI. One prays or meditates, another listens to music, third admires the sunset, it's all the same thing really... even from the brain chemistry standpoint, all results in increased serotonin production, in both participants and even bystanders somehow.
I've grown up among scientists (physicists mostly), some of them pretty ingenious... being Russian, they all started out as atheists, and I'd say probably most came to faith through their work... there is a lot of work going on these days in synthesyzing science and faith... torsional fields, bio-energy research, physics of vacuum...
The specific god or gods of any religion are simply made-up concepts trying to explain the unexplainable. I don't have a problem with simply saying "I don't know".
Ah, but the intellectual component of religion is nothing. Intellect is overrated anyway... How intuitive/psychic are you? I've never understood Christianity intellectually either, but when a family member, a Christian, was dying, I wore a cross and was praying for her all day long, and I could *feel* how the spirit of the Russian Orthodox Church (what is called Egregor in esoterics) would let me in and open up for me. Until you get that feeling, you just don't get it... it will be a collection of myths and old wives tales, where in fact there is soooo much more to it.
No, this "god" does not have a conscience or a spirit.
Then why call him God? Occam's razor, man... Methinks you are introducing the concept of God into the mix because you are intuiting some higher conscience here, that the word "universe" does not describe... I may be wrong.
Does an atom have a spirit? Does a slug? How about a rock? Maybe a barrel of oil has a spirit
As a matter of fact, I think they might. Speaking of oil, I've heard of pretty amazing research done on oil fields...
As for "Satan" being "God"... It's one in the same thing. There is no god without Satan... no 'good' without 'evil'... no male without female. In my view of the universe/god, it is EVERYTHING. There's isn't "less" god in Satan, there is exactly as much god in Satan as there is a rock, or the Pope, or President Bush.
Define Satan. Does it have a consicence? ;-)
I grew up as a Lutheran Christian, but grew away from that by the time I was 16 and abandoned Christianity by the time I was 22. With time and distance, I look back at my younger self and am a bit embarrassed by what I used to believe.
Yup, growing up in a simple faith and then outgrowing it intellectually will do it to you.
There are lots of very angry people out there, and some of them consider themselves religious; but they'll never know God. And some secular people might know God, but not realize it for the time being. God works in mysterious ways 
passionandsong wrote:
sorry abc,didnt even look at your pic.thats sister noy brother....oopsy.
No problem, brother, we are on the same page. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/22/2008 3:21:11 PM | DREAMBOAT333 - thanks so much for bringing some well needed perspective to easing some of the tension that has krept in here as of late...
I am escpecially pleased to find you quoting from The Book of The Letter of James.
The United State Conference of Catholic Bishops comment about The Book of The Letter of James on their website: http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/james/intro.htm
The letter is addressed to "the twelve tribes in the dispersion." In Old Testament terminology the term "twelve tribes" designates the people of Israel; the "dispersion" or "diaspora" refers to the non-Palestinian Jews who had settled throughout the Greco- Roman world (see John 7:35).
Further;
Since in Christian thought the church is the new Israel, the address probably designates the Jewish Christian churches located in Palestine, Syria, and elsewhere. Or perhaps the letter is meant more generally for all Christian communities, and the "dispersion" has the symbolic meaning of exile from our true home, as it has in the address of 1 Peter (1 Peter 1:1). The letter is so markedly Jewish in character that some scholars have regarded it as a Jewish document subsequently "baptized" by a few Christian insertions, but such an origin is scarcely tenable in view of the numerous contacts discernible between the Letter of James and other New Testament literature. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/22/2008 5:22:41 PM | seatlerain1 wrote:
I grew up as a Lutheran Christian...I look back at my younger self and am a bit embarrassed by what I used to believe | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:30:18 PM | | I disagree with the thought that the universe is too complex to have happened radomly. Perhaps it is so complex BECAUSE it is random. Those that believe will inevitably say the bottom line is that you just have to take it on faith, that you just have to choose to believe. So why can't I just choose to believe in the reality of what exsists without having to credit it to anything or anyone supernatural? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/23/2008 2:43:02 AM | I grew up as a Lutheran Christian...I look back at my younger self and am a bit embarrassed by what I used to believe
what did you believe? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/23/2008 4:30:45 AM | The best way to live is to live as if there is no god, and don't be afraid to admit that you don't believe in god.
If you're right--no problem, you were right.
If you're wrong--no problem, surely god will reward you with the highest honors possible for your attempts to clear his or her bad name. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/23/2008 5:26:33 AM | | somehow I think God is gonna get ya for telling anyone to live life believeing there is no God. I dont go to church but I fully believe in God. maybe you should ask God to help you belive there is a God before denying him. You just might get a sign. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/23/2008 5:42:11 AM |
beershack said:
I disagree with the thought that the universe is too complex to have happened randomly. Perhaps it is so complex BECAUSE it is random. Those that believe will inevitably say the bottom line is that you just have to take it on faith, that you just have to choose to believe. So why can't I just choose to believe in the reality of what exists without having to credit it to anything or anyone supernatural?
That reminds me of a wonderful quote:
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe is fine tuned for life is akin
to a puddle being surprised at how well it fits its hole." -- Douglas Adams | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/23/2008 6:00:29 AM | happy camper said:
The best way to live is to live as if there is no god, and don't be afraid to admit that you don't believe in god.
If you're right--no problem, you were right.
If you're wrong--no problem, surely god will reward you with the highest honors possible for your attempts to clear his or her bad name.
If we're talking about the highly judgmental Christian god here, I totally agree with you, happy. If I die and find myself, literally, at the Pearly Gates I'm not all too worried about getting in.
Christians say their god is all-knowing and all-forgiving (not to mention he IS Love). If this is all the case, he will know why I didn't believe... because the BOOK is too full of holes, his followers are all pointing in different directions, and no one has been able to CONSISTENTLY explain the most basic of questions that I have in regards to him.
kittenshere said:
somehow I think God is gonna get ya for telling anyone to live life believeing there is no God. I dont go to church but I fully believe in God. maybe you should ask God to help you belive there is a God before denying him. You just might get a sign.
Ah yes... He'll get me! Look out!!! The can't get behind the idea of, "Love me or else I'll torture you for eternity"... now THAT is love.
passionandsong asked:
I grew up as a Lutheran Christian...I look back at my younger self and am a bit embarrassed by what I used to believe
what did you believe?
I grew up believing in a godly being watching my every move from above.
I believed this all loving creature would send me to HELL for not obeying him.
I believed that in communion through Transubstantiation I was literally eating flesh and blood.
I believed in a world wide flood
People rising from the dead
That two people could have sex and repopulate the entire planet
That there are different languages because of the tower of Babel.
Atheists were angry, hateful people desperate to let GOD into their lives but afraid to, so they actively rejected Him.
There are winged pixies... er, "angels" flying around... literally.
That if you believed in God ENOUGH, anything could happen... healing, success, etc
and a hundred other things that I now rank up there with the Easter bunny and Santa.
James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/23/2008 6:13:51 AM | | seattlerain, only if u ask for forgiveness. God give us a choice . we have free will to want to learn as much as we can . if we are uninterested in learning thats also a chioce but a bad one. You are only forgiven if u ask to be. I am not here to convine u one way or the other. If you dont wnat to find out for yourself that is ur choice. I question alot aobut things like that too. is tortureing someone love. it has crossed my mind but even so we are not to question God. I myself have not ever fully read the bible , in fact I read small amount of it every so many yrs. But I still bleive in him. Why things are the way they are I dont know. but to be on the safe side I would much rather blieve in God than take a chance and end up in hell. You dont lose anything by believing. but you might lose alot by not believing. better to be safe than sorry. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/23/2008 6:57:00 AM | passionandsong, where seatlerain1 wrote:
I grew up as a Lutheran Christian...I look back at my younger self and am a bit embarrassed by what I used to believe
And where you asked:
what did you believe?
Lutherans are merely Catholics who don't want to be Catholics. Martin Luther started the whole movement in his response to his pride in Germany and his anger that Rome placed Cardinals there.
Martin Luther was a devout Catholic (being The Church founded by Jesus Christ on earth) but he started to resist The Church because of the progresiveness of his own ego and the relativist moral views.
Martin Luther in his 95 Statements against The Holy Roman Catholic Church repatedly pronounced The Pope of Rome to be The Anti-Christ.
"Lutherans" are even named after the 'man' who broke away from The Church enraged by his own moral relativism and his xenophobic, pro German (where have I heard tha one before) attitudes.
As an adherent to The Roman Catholic Church, I am admittedly biased, but I must say - I can appreciate why one would be embarassed.
Where seatlerain1 wrote:
Transubstantiation I was literally eating flesh and blood.
Transubstantion = The Actual Presence of Christ in The Body of The Eucharist is a uniquely Catholic element of belief not shared by The Lutheran Church and vehemently rejected by Martin Luther...
Perhaps the reason you are embarassed is because you were confused and wandered into a church besides the one you were looking for or thought you were a member of? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/23/2008 7:10:33 AM | James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth wrote in regards to his being a "Lutheran":
I believed that in communion through Transubstantiation I was literally eating flesh and blood.
Martin Luther retained the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, but the doctrine of transubstantiation was rejected. Martin Luther believed the sacraments were valid only as aids to faith. Martin Luther maintained that salvation comes through faith alone; not by works and sacraments.
James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth - Jesus loves you and has a plan for your life. | |
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