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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 4:26:39 PM |
The evidence of our senses and reason says that the universe always existed. The evidence tells us that no god is needed.
The evidence I see is that everything decays and goes from a greater to a lesser complexity. I am decaying, my car is decaying, in fact the whole of creation is decaying. This tells me that there will be an end and that therefore it only logically follows that there was a beginning.
The evidence tells us that no god is needed.
If no god is needed to create something as complex as the universe then why does it require creative intelligence to build a house, a car, a computer etc, etc. These things are much less complex and yet they required human creativity to bring them into existence. Logic and evidence tells me that there had to be a creative force to bring the universe into existence also.
Who created god?
His answer is that as the "I AM" He ALWAYS WAS, IS and ALWAYS will BE.
If you can conceive an uncreated god that is more complex than the universe then why can't you conceive of an uncreated universe
Because the evidence tells us an uncreated universe is not possible and creates more problems then it solves. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 8:07:52 PM | | No Virginia, there is not a god. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 8:37:02 PM | Yes, there is a God. There is no way that the universe and each of its complex living things would be here otherwise. The Big Bang theory is silly when you try to imagine the number of living plants, animals, insects and people that were created. Each living thing taking care of itself, knowing what to eat, what it needs.
When you look at each speices, the knowledge it contains in survival is amazing! Birds flying where there is food and its warm in the winter (not to mention their sense of direction), dogs knowing to dig holes to cool down, speices not mating with each other, or unable to procreate if they do. Even the trees and plants get what they need from weather or insects or animals. Who could teach a bee to polinate a flower?
The human body is too amazing to have some Big Bang creation! The tears that cleanse our eyes, the fever that warns we're sick, the way we process food and nutrients, we can create a baby and feed it for a year, and of course our amazing brains! We are so complex no doctor or scientist will ever completely understand our minds. No doctor or scientist can ever recreate the living beings that God created. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 9:07:10 PM | Scientists don't contend that anything we observe today was "created" by the Big Bang. The Big Bang is a starting point for the formation of the universe in it's currently observable state. There may have been something before, but we don't purport to know what that was.
Every single living thing on this Earth came from the Replicator, a name given for the first cell that was able to replicate and thrive in the Primordial soup. It's hard for people to conceptualize just how old our planet is, and how everything could be related, but some open-minded research will explain many of creation's mysteries.
If we were "created" by a god in our current form, how do you rationalize the indisputable evidence that the Earth has been through many life cycles of dominant organisms? Do you truly believe that fossils were placed by God to "test your faith?" | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 9:11:46 PM |
The human body is too amazing to have some Big Bang creation!
Learn the difference between evolution and the big bang. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 10:16:26 PM | As I said...Is there a mod?
The evidence I see is that everything decays and goes from a greater to a lesser complexity. I am decaying, my car is decaying, in fact the whole of creation is decaying. This tells me that there will be an end and that therefore it only logically follows that there was a beginning.
EVEN if we accept the proposition that the universe has a first cause, we obviously do not have to accept in any wise that the first cause is God. It could be the bowel obstruction being released of the top elephant of the stack on top of the turtles being released dramatically...in other words, the Big Bang. This is a VERY common logical fallacy you are trying to weasel people into accepting. No sale.
Philosophy 101, the Cosmological Argument...St. Thomas Aquinas...dumb then, dumb now. A form of equivocation (a ten dollar word for lying bullsh*t) called fallacy of composition.
If no god is needed to create something as complex as the universe then why does it require creative intelligence to build a house, a car, a computer etc, etc. These things are much less complex and yet they required human creativity to bring them into existence. Logic and evidence tells me that there had to be a creative force to bring the universe into existence also.
A combination of the argument from incredulity and argument from ignorance..."If I don't understand it or believe it, it can't be happening???"
His answer is that as the "I AM" He ALWAYS WAS, IS and ALWAYS will BE.
No, that's one of his alleged biographer's words to that effect. We have yet to collectively hear from the entity Him/Her/Itself in a globally verifiable way. And as such, it's begging the question.
Because the evidence tells us an uncreated universe is not possible and creates more problems then it solves.
Well that alas falls into the category of "Sez you..."
Yes, there is a God. There is no way that the universe and each of its complex living things would be here otherwise. The Big Bang theory is silly when you try to imagine the number of living plants, animals, insects and people that were created. Each living thing taking care of itself, knowing what to eat, what it needs.
...
yadayada
See above...argument from incredulity and argument from ignorance and who knows what other logical fallacies.
Seriously...they need to teach basic reasoning at the high school level...it would clear up (I hope) a lot of these questions and perhaps make this society a much nicer place to live.
Until the creator writes his will upon the surface of the moon in 50 mile high platinum letters that we can all read by means of a simple telescope, I am afraid it's all up for grabs and science is going to provide the best answers available...and thanks to them for their fine work. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 11:33:14 PM | Our universe is the only one that we have any experience of and our being tiny but thoughtful human bits of it might tend to make us reason in an anthropocentrically biased way about things.
You can see this in the way that in the main monotheistic religions god is usually envisaged as a man. This cannot be entirely unconnected to the fact that it is men who like to be in control, and consequently write the doctrinal material of religion. They are clearly basing the deity on themselves.
Religion is unfairly biased against women methinks, and this should be addressed. A female Pope, elected by one man one vote rules would be a good start. Kylie Minogue would make a good one. I don't know if she's Catholic but maybe she'd convert if she got the vote. She'd look better in one of those spangly party frocks anyway than does the normal poping fodder of some doddery old codger on his last legs.
The muslim religion would also benefit from a bit of male/ female role reversal. It would be nice to see Arab oil sheikhs not being allowed to drive cars or leave the house without wearing bags over their heads.
If god does exist, I'd like to bet she's nothing like the male invented version that they write about in the so called holy books, doing all the wrath of god stuff, losing his rag and smiting folk in an indiscriminate and capricious manner. She's probably a nice girl who set the universe in motion and thereafter was content to stay home in heaven having a glass of wine, painting her nails and leaving us lot down here to indulge in all this futile speculation. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/7/2008 11:57:24 PM | The answer to this question is a question: Are there us (we)?
When the inner voice prompts you to make a certain decision, something we could call a gut-feeling, it comes from somewhere, from where? There's something out there that keeps this world in order. Such experiences as elation after scoring a goal or rather orgasm or even satisfaction of having slaked your thirst, all this tells us about the state in which God may have been all this time, the highest absolute state. This small still voice, the inner voice is God's voice, imo. The problem is people are so materialistic that there's less and less room for studying the inner voice and refining one's character. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/8/2008 12:57:40 AM | I think philosophical arguments for the existence of God are of limited usefulness, and I doubt very much that any atheist has ever converted on the basis of one of them.
I don't think there is any public evidence for the existence of God. Simply pointing to "created things" and insisting that they testify to the existence of God isn't convincing anyone who isn't already convinced.
I do, however, think the existence of a spiritual reality can be known through religious experience, though whether this spiritual reality can be identified with any particular deity is doubtful. I studied this as an undergrad, and found that the evidence that such experiences exist is very compelling, even as there is much debate over precisely what causes them to happen.
Such experiences would constitute evidence for those who have them, but those who have not aren't really in a position to judge one way or another whether they are legitimate or not (though they are well within their rights to ignore them). | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/8/2008 1:23:01 AM |
The evidence of our senses and reason says that the universe always existed.
Um...ever heard of the "Big Bang Theory"? No?
The evidence tells us that no god is needed.
The existence of God does not have to be proven based on necessity. It's sometimes assumed that God was invented to "explain" why the universe exists, as if religion was simply a primitive attempt at scientific explanation. But explaining how things came to be has never been a primary concern in religion. The important question is is not "how?" but "why?," and the answer, if there is an answer, would be the same whether you believe the universe was created in seven days, or developed over billions of years.
Who created god?
Traditions that posit the existence of a creator god generally agree that God created all things. God is conceived of not as a thing, but as the condition of the existence of all things. (I can't believe how many people ask this question, and think that they're being clever by doing so. Take a philosophy course, seriously.) | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/8/2008 9:39:01 AM | It's too late to get out and visit a book shop so please tell us the philosophical reasons of "why" god created the universe. Was he bored with the same old thing every day of being omnipotently alone in the house with nowhere to go, no one to smite, and nothing on the telly because no one had invented it yet?
I'd also like to know more about god as a "condition of things" rather than a "thing". Which faiths go for this interpretation? In the religious tomes behind the big religions that bestride the world stage, he definitely comes across as an angry bloke, who is all nice and loving as long as you do exactly what he says, but will instantly revert to being a cruel and sadistic psychopath if you cross him. This is why people write all those boring hymns, telling him what a great guy he is. It's to avoid having him come round and smash the house up, or worse.
it's also the reason why in some theocratically ruled countries, the folks are as barbaric as he is and will execute their citizens for the slightest deviation from religious orthodoxy. Aspostasy is one instance. Interestingly this is not a wierd mind altering drug combining aspirin and ecstasy but simply the act of healthily changing your mind and wanting to leave the club you've been brought up in to join another one, perhaps with slightly less insane rules | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/8/2008 10:13:18 AM | Yes I believe God exists. I also believe God created earth as basically a school ground for humans to learn hardships,love,education,talents to further research in heaven.He gave us free will as a gift.Christianity or a belief in a higher power is not solely based on belief alone,there have been and still are instances such as NDE(near death exp)audibly speaking God that changes a persons life from atheism to a believer thus changing their life forever.He never promised us a rose garden,just said if we are still and quiet he would take care of lifes tradgedy's in his way.How can someone gaze at a seemingly endless sky and not began to wonder about a creator? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/8/2008 10:18:16 AM | Correction. There is no *physical* evidence of such. However, there is a form of evidence to be found in *human experience*. In these terms there is an enormous amount of evidence -- found amongst people of vast cultural differences separated by vast amounts of time and space -- that the divine exists.
Some may chose to question that the quality of that evidence, and truth be told the value of different peoples word and testimony do indeed differ. But in the final analysis, there are *AT LEAST* as many honest, honourable, intelligent and critical minded people who believe in the divine, who have had some sort of spiritual experience and have chosen to label it as such, as there are those that don't or haven't or have chosen to label the experience otherwise.
So, faced with the testimony of two people in every way the equal of one another save on the topic of "God", why should anyone believe the one and not the other? What qualifies one belief and disqualifies the other, other than preference... of evidence and/or personal experience in this case. | |
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| Is there a God?
Posted: 3/8/2008 11:55:46 AM | Personally, when I'm confronted by an absence of evidence I prefer to suspend judgement.
Ultimately, me too... But I have my guess and I find it very fun to speculate.
Must it all be taken completely by faith?
I don't think so... If questions you have about your own belief system leave you uneasy and are never answered to your satisfaction, I think it's possible to formulate your own opinion and still believe in some sort of g(G)od(s)... I'll take sensical over faith any day but what makes sense to me may not make sense to you. | |
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| Is there a God?
Posted: 3/8/2008 12:10:08 PM |
Correction. There is no *physical* evidence of such. However, there is a form of evidence to be found in *human experience*. In these terms there is an enormous amount of evidence -- found amongst people of vast cultural differences separated by vast amounts of time and space -- that the divine exists.
If you think you can trust experience you are as deluded as someone in a cult.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p958woXcYcI&feature=related
Watch the above and begin to realize just how mailable the mind really is.
Also watch this one and see just how easy it is to make people believe in a god they didn't even believe existed. When that one is over click on part two.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI&feature=related
What is the difference between delusion and an acceptable belief that has no proof?
the number of people believing it. When it comes to belief, why is it people will fight so hard to keep it? don't you find that a little odd? why is it people see believing in a god as a personal freedom? who came up with that concept? I'll bet it was the religion you believe in. | |
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| Is there a God?
Posted: 3/8/2008 12:25:25 PM | | You have to stand for something,or you'll fall for anything! | |
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| Is there a God?
Posted: 3/8/2008 1:47:10 PM | | ^^^^ what kind of logic is that? | |
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| Is there a God?
Posted: 3/8/2008 3:32:32 PM |
What is the difference between delusion and an acceptable belief that has no proof?
What is the difference between a perfectly healthy and productive person that believes in the divine and one that doesn't? And what is the difference between a person that claims to have no experience of or belief in the divine, and one that insists that no one can or should have a belief in the divine? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/8/2008 3:40:51 PM |
please tell us the philosophical reasons of "why" god created the universe
I never said anything about "philosophical reasons 'why' god created the universe," I simply said that the questions of "why?" (as opposed to the scientific questions of "how?") have been the primary concern of religion. Prior to the enlightenment, these categories were not properly differentiated, and the failure to understand this has often led to blunders on the part of religious people (from the Church authorities who persecuted Galileo to the evangelical creationists of today) as well as non-religious people (Christopher Hitchens being a prominent recent example).
The question of why God would create something rather than nothing has been answered in various ways in different traditions. Aquinas said it was "good" for God to create the universe (as attested in the first Genesis creation story), and since God is "good" himself, that's pretty much reason enough. Personally, it's not a question I lose a lot of sleep over.
I'd also like to know more about god as a "condition of things" rather than a "thing". Which faiths go for this interpretation?
In the Catholic tradition this has been asserted, if not in quite this language, since Augustine. I can't think of a single religion that asserts that God is a "thing." | |
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| Is there a God?
Posted: 3/8/2008 3:41:44 PM |
If you think you can trust experience you are as deluded as someone in a cult.
Wow!!! If may apply this to an example;
So when someone experiences falling in love and they start to trust what they are experiencing then this one is as deluded as someone in a cult ????
What is the difference between delusion and an acceptable belief that has no proof?
the number of people believing it. When it comes to belief, why is it people will fight so hard to keep it? don't you find that a little odd? why is it people see believing in a god as a personal freedom? who came up with that concept? I'll bet it was the religion you believe in.
Of the psychology courses I have completed which would include Personality of the Self, general psychology,developmental psychology,and abnormal psychology,and of these,the most consistently and commonly used definition for the word,delusion;
-a false, persistent belief maintained in spite of evidence to the contrary and I believe that the difference can be found in these four words I have put in bold.
So when it comes to another's personal belief in a deity,why is it that some people will fight so hard to try discredit this one and their personal beliefs in a deity by saying something like for example;The number of people believing is the difference between delusion and an acceptable belief that has no proof???? And while this one doing this very act,he has no available evidence/ proof/ evidence to the contrary to back it up. Don't you find this a little odd.In others words,the last time I checked,the existence of a deity could not be something that is scientifically proven or disproven,not to mention med/term used in reference mental heath disorders;"Delusion: A false personal belief that is not subject to reason or contradictory evidence and is not explained by a person's usual cultural and religious concepts (so that, for example, it is not an article of faith)."
So should one accept this accepted definition of the word,delusion used in Psychiatry and and try to apply the word deluded/delusion/delusional to refer to another because of their belief in a deity and/or religious/spiritual beliefs,then I would also like to quote the words of FrogO_Oeyes that I believe gives a polished reference to this;
The problem here is the last four words. There can be no "evidence to the contrary". You cannot prove or disprove anything which lacks a refutable definition. The best you can hope for is to refute very specific things about very specific concepts of deities. It is unlikely you can even disprove most deities based on their own scriptures, because a key factor in every deity is that they are "superior" to us. That means, no matter what we are taught, there is no way we could ever be sure of what a deity might think, want, or do. Scientifically and logically speaking; to consider someone delusional, based on this definition alone, is...um...delusional.
persistent belief: those who believe in deities are delusional.
evidence to the contrary: the scientific method cannot disprove the existence of deities. Therefore, the belief depends upon evidence it knowingly cannot provide.
It is self-contradictory. The method used to draw the conclusion does not allow the conclusion, thus the evidence contradicts the belief and the one making the argument is delusional by his own definitions.
and to quote words used by rockondon;
absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Believing that God does not exist because there is no evidence of his existence holds no more merit than saying He does exist because there is no evidence that he does not exist.
And oh yeah,and as for this;
why is it people see believing in a god as a personal freedom?
for me,it is a personal freedom because I believe and accept as true for me that my personal belief/faith in G-d gives me an inner peace that this world can not give me and an inner peace that this world can not take away from me. | |
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| Is there a God?
Posted: 3/8/2008 7:59:51 PM | | i am just starting my journey in the spiritual realm of "god".i do believe though that you are not supposed to question what he?she or otherwise is.i do believe as i have gathered that when god made us in his image,the spirit did so as all of us.the people of the earth.when people wonder why god created famine and such,they do not understand that we are all part of god,and what we do shapes our world.i could be wrong though. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 3:40:58 AM |
I guess this is a pretty broad question but I would hope that there is a god but how can anyone be so sure when there is not a real evidence of such.
Must you see requested "evidence" before you will reach out to this God?
Have you ever sought One out, seeking only knowledge or companionship?
I can give you my word that there is indeed a God. I know His name.
We talked today. (well, in a form that is not in a realm that you and I could chat but I heard His voice and He hears me.)
However, the belief I have in this God is a personal belief. It is never transferable.
You must obtain your own, given by that very God that I speak of.
If you sincerely seek Him, you will find Him. In fact, the very desire that provoked you to ask such a question was most likely due to His knocking at your door, waiting for you to push it open... Start in John, asking if the God of such Book will show Himself to you.
*disclaimer- grab a hold of somethin', doll, it can be a bit...err..new*  | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 4:04:57 AM | Science Fiction has covered this in so many ways. There always seems to be a being living on another or higher plane of consciousness. The universe is just to big for there not to be being/beings living in ways that we mortal 70 year life span creatures would consider god/gods.
There is just too much that is not earth for there not to be things that we would fall to the ground a thank are lucky stars it finds favor with us.
In one of my understandings what humans have considered the God of Jesus may be a local god in terms of the universe, and as Jesus has his Father so does the Father and it is all connected but goes so far into the creation of the universe that we humans even when we get to heaven will not comprehend the vastness of creation. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 6:41:08 AM |
...it is all connected but goes so far into the creation of the universe that we humans even when we get to heaven will not comprehend the vastness of creation.
Just a couple of questions. Where did you get that from? Did you make it up? who ends up going to heaven? (that is... what must a person do to go to heaven and if so... who said it?)
I'm guessing from the quote that you made it up because you are assuming... (a) There's a god (b) There's a heaven and (c) That there are limits on what we will be 'allowed' to comprehend when we die... in fact, i can't even begin to comment on the last 15 or so words in that sentence. That's purely because (with due respect) ... how could ANYONE say what they are going to feel/think/understand (if anything) AFTER they die and go to heaven?
We are alive, we don't know anything more than we die then we decompose.
Anything more than that is purely speculation.
Near death experiences (for example)........ are being tested scientifically and the effects to the body (white light/drawn to the light) can be explained scientifically.
Mediums who claim they talk to dead people. Derren Brown can do all the things psychics can do and he's always saying that it's a trick. Even if it's not a trick... instead of talking to the dead, could it not be possible for some people to be sensitive to feelings of others? I mean... we get 2 phones talking to each other via bluetooth, so why should people not be able to be sensitive (using waves) to a couple's thoughts or feelings of the relatives of a deceased relative??? Nothing spiritual.... something that we might be able to prove experimentally in a few years...
These are questions.... not definitive answers... but they should make people wonder... are we really going
to give up learning and put our existence down to an invisible man floating about in the sky whose so called existence divides more than unites us... and in his infinite power is still not able to get everyone to agree?? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 7:02:59 AM |
That's purely because (with due respect) ... how could ANYONE say what they are going to feel/think/understand (if anything) AFTER they die and go to heaven?
Let me ask ya, can you say how you will feel if I give you a million bucks? How bout' if I hit you in the head with my coffee mug? I dare say that you could accurately and correctly tell me how you would feel in both cases and hopefully, granted you are mature, how you would react as well.
So you would know how you would
"feel/think/understand", Yes? If so, why?
are we really going to give up learning and put our existence down to an invisible man floating about in the sky whose so called existence divides more than unites us... Why must one give up learning in order to have faith in Jesus? I have actually continued my education exceedingly, after having found/put my faith into God.
And *giggles* I have never imagined JC as some "invisible floating sky dude" but something so much more tangible and powerful than that of Casper.. 
Oh, and I'd say that He has brought you and I together this morning, not divided us, my friend. | |
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