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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/30/2008 5:56:27 AM | [guyworthgettingtoknowinpa whose mom de plum is way to long]
[where there is not real evidence...]
"Because you have seen me you have believed, happy are those who have not seen and believed."
Jesus Christ to the Apostle Thomas | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/30/2008 8:26:45 AM |
I asked: What does Jesus say about the claim that the Catholic Church is the only legitimate Church?
you replied: What Jesus said about the claim the the Catholic Church is THE CHURCH is as follows: Matthew 16 "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church"... Please speak plainly, are you claiming "the Roman Catholic Church is the only legitimate Church of Jesus Christ" or not. You altered the words slightly, enough to make the meaning ambiguous. If you are, then we have nothing more to talk about and you have confirmed my suspicions that the core of ecumenism is elitism. And that saddens me because for as long as one group of sibling believes themselves to be the "real" children, they consider the "others" to be "less than" and that will always prevent the oneness that Jesus prayed for in His High Priestly Prayer:
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." John 17:20-26 (NIV)
I asked: If you knew something that was harmful to the Catholic Church and was a crime or an immoral act, would you reveal it or not? What is more important, the truth and justice or the Catholic Church?
you replied: The Church, in my belief system IS truth and justice as established by Christ and through which He operates. And here is my problem because that group is then placed higher than justice and truth, and thus becomes an idol. Having dealt with those who have been abusers and abused in the Catholic Church, I can say that the most common excuse given for staying silent was to protect "the good name" of the Catholic Church. When we place any institution before truth and justice, we fail the fundamental of the Gospel. Remember what Paul said, "Should we do evil that good may come of it? May it never be!". The end never justifies the means. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/30/2008 2:21:52 PM | The rock Jesus was referring to was not Peter but Peter's confession that Jesus was the Messiah (or Christ) and the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16)
Denominatioalism has nothing to do with ones relationship to God through his faith in Jesus Christ.
Christ's church or the "body of Christ" was created by Christ and transcends any man- made institution.
The Bible includes much about Jesus' teachings on the "bride of Christ" his church or his people, those that the Father gave him. (See Christ's prayers in John 17.) | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/30/2008 2:33:40 PM | | Well I dont want to go to hell only an idiot would want to go to hell so you have to be sure and I dont have enough faith in my beliefs to be an athiest. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/30/2008 5:04:15 PM | Yes, I agree, Bournemouthgman: it is all a matter of what one believes. My faith however is more connected to what makes sense than to what I would like to believe. I find the belief in God more comfortable, more soothing and more beautiful than my beliefs....but to me it makes no sense: it is not in line with nature, therefore I do not put drugs into my coffee to make it sweet. I would love to believe in God ( I don't even know why I am so damned rational)....my life would be so much easier.....gosh I could just surrender to God's Will instead of making one effort after the other in order to save myself ( not that one makes no effort in Christianity, but hope is not man-created there).
What works for me might now work for another: what is important, in my opinion, is that one relates to his/her faith in a way that is empowering. After all, faith and confidence are the essential requirements for mental health. If the belief in God helps you and empowers you and you can make sense out of it, then keep it. If not, find something else or suspend your judgment.
I always like to distinguish between truths of the observer and truths of the will. With truth of the observer, it is best to stay skeptical until you have reasonable evidence, something that makes sense logically and systematically speaking ( in this sense the duality of buddhism makes much sense logically speaking). With truths of the Will , the truth won't happen without your faith in it, often in the face of odds. For example, if you don't believe that becoming a pianist is worthwhile, or that you have the talent of a good pianist, it won't happen. I have personally chosen a faith that seems to satisfy both truths, in my opinion. Yes, it makes sense, but I also needed to develop confidence in it.....without confidence, the truth of the observer would be sterile and useless. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/30/2008 5:39:27 PM | | ( not that one makes no effort in Christianity, but hope is not man-created there). its not as easy as you would believe.faith is a challenge of the soul.testimony is my only proof.forgivness is not a human intinct.loving all of gods children is a struggle that lasts a life time. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/30/2008 5:46:26 PM | [it is best to stay skeptical]
It is not a matter of picking or choosing. There is only one God ,major tenant of Judaism as well as Christianity and Islam. I am witnessing something I find hard to comprehend and as a Rabbi told me, "my synagogue is full of skeptics" and it didn't bother him in the least. Abraham's claim to fame was his faith, yet the Jews embrace skeptism.
I am a Christian, so I consider myself a spiritual child of Abraham and thus claiming the promises of God to his people. Naturally, I consider my self a spiritual child of God as well. Naturally, I claim the revelation of God to be real and that includes the written revelation.
Now, here this, it is my experience and my faith and as such you can not dispute it because like I said it is mine. (Did not want a barrage of people trying to claim they know more about my experience than I do.) | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/30/2008 6:05:13 PM | Quite, frankly, Dantwice, I couldnt' care less for what you believe. I have no intention of disputing others' faith....But I am entitled to my opinion on the matter: That's all. Sometimes I wonder how open-minded christians are.
Passionandsong: you are right: faith is not an easy matter, for anybody; it must be experiential. Only the fool has a great time with it......Oppium populi. The truth is a struggle for everybody to perceive: And everybody has his/her own, right Dantwice??? But this is not what you preach. Oh well. Too bad. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 10:22:49 AM |
Abraham's claim to fame was his faith, yet the Jews embrace skeptism.
I am a Christian, so I consider myself a spiritual child of Abraham and thus claiming the promises of God to his people.
Abraham negotiated with God about Sodom and won. Jacob FOUGHT God. There are many other examples that escape me now. Yes, skepticism, free thought and dispute for the sake of dispute is encouraged in Judaism, because humans (unlike angels) are given the gift of free will. That's why angels were supposed to bow to humans, because angels are meant to obey... humans are not. (not that I believe by the book, just quoting what I've heard).
Your skeptical Jew. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 11:29:31 AM | the backbone of any organized faith is the written word
be it Bible,Torah, Koran or whatever oral to written tradition
forms the basis for religious training ,discussion and indoctrination
the scope of what is there, the stories intertwined offer readers a chance
to connect with the past and feel a portion of the more impactful direct connection
to whatever being from up the levels of complexity has dropped down to say hi
I do think its funny to see emotions drive the intellect..
the results of that are never less than pathos to humor to pathos transitions
although watching others ignore their own self created blind spots isnt
must watch TV ..
it can help us lift the curtain on our own little corners of concealment
irony might be lost to those in the throes of posturing without a portfolio
still i can grasp the gains offered by commiting to anything that promises
a road with company , one that leads to whatever place you have to die to see.
i think the extremes human conflict creates, the needless dying ,suffering and
personality perversions that the opportunity to explore the power of life and death seldom fails to bring to flower has to be seen as evil ..
even without a devil to design it all. Or a God to somehow fail to save the day | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 11:43:18 AM | Passionandsong: you are right: faith is not an easy matter, for anybody; it must be experiential. Only the fool has a great time with it......Oppium populi. The truth is a struggle for everybody to perceive: And everybody has his/her own, right Dantwice??? But this is not what you preach. Oh well. Too bad.
faith takes commitment yes.the peace that the lord provides does make faith easier to accomplish.to most who havnt givin themselves to christ it seems blind and confusing.at times it is a struggle for those who have. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 11:48:33 AM | Transcend:
irony might be lost to those in the throes of posturing without a portfolio Something about this sentence really jumped out at me... could you elaborate on what you meant by it? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 11:51:43 AM | If there is no God, is there such a thing as right and wrong? Or were Gandhi and Hitler just pursuing alternative lifestyles?
It seems to me that there are things that we believe are inherently wrong. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 1:27:52 PM | a system of right and wrong exists for all of us
some need it applied externally with rewards and punishments clearly listed
others develop their own internal system that feeds off an empathy for others
how our actions affect others become rewards and punishments to our own spirit
i could care less which you choose, internal or external.. but choose you will | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 2:43:38 PM | I love the argument that without the (capital "G") God that no one would know "right" from "wrong". The entire concept is relational to the society the perceiver lives in, but many find that hard to accept.
You know what would stop this entire "is there a god (God)?" argument?
If believers in whatever god(s) they believe in said, "there is absolutely no proof of my god, but I choose to follow my spiritual path because it feels right to me -- you should follow the spiritual path that feels right to you as well."
Period.
There couldn't be debate or argument about such as statement. (although I'm sure SOME here would argue anyway).
Can I get an AMEN?
James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 2:51:25 PM |
If believers in whatever god(s) they believe in said, "there is absolutely no proof of my god, but I choose to follow my spiritual path because it feels right to me -- you should follow the spiritual path that feels right to you as well."
Can I get an AMEN? Amen :) | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 3:04:22 PM |
If believers in whatever god(s) they believe in said, "there is absolutely no proof of my god, but I choose to follow my spiritual path because it feels right to me -- you should follow the spiritual path that feels right to you as well."
Period.
There couldn't be debate or argument about such as statement.
Well, unless someone died and made you "God" -  - yours is just another opinion in a million opinions. And worth as much as any other. Why would anyone be foolish enough to say the above and believe in their God? And when you say, "no proof", what are you really saying? Clearly, for those who believe in the existence of "God" there was sufficient "proof" for them to believe.
But here's what I'll offer you:
"Regardless of whether you believe in the same God as me or not, I'll follow my path, and respect and honour you as you follow yours. I would appreciate it if you could do the same."
Period.
There couldn't be debate or argument about such as statement. (although I'm sure SOME here would argue anyway).
Can I get an AMEN? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 3:15:50 PM | ^^ Oh my... exactly how was your version an improvement??
when you say, "no proof", what are you really saying? I know I am not him, but I am pretty sure he was saying that since there is no scientific, solid and tangible proof of anyone's God (or for that matter the lack of a God)... none of us can be 100% sure... so ALL beliefs or non-beliefs should be respected regardless of whether or not you agree...
Clearly, for those who believe in the existence of "God" there was sufficient "proof" for them to believe. Believing that there is or isn't a God is NOT proof.. this doesn't really need to be explained, does it?
A person can believe that they have been abducted by aliens, may have dreams to "corroborate" such beliefs, vague feelings, anxiety at bedtime, etc... but without the proof.... yeah.. you get the picture...
(although I'm sure SOME here would argue anyway). Dead on.
Ps:
Why would anyone be foolish enough to say the above and believe in their God? I cannot prove the God that I believe in... yet I believe in God anyway.. go ahead and call me foolish. I've heard faaar worse.
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 3:30:54 PM |
^^ Oh my... exactly how was your version an improvement??
I never claimed it was. I didn't realise it was a competition (and maybe it's not). I could point out that mine didn't force a person to disavow what they avowed so that I could feel better about my own personal 'disavowment'. Mine also lacks the usual animosity towards, and sense of superiority over, Theists.
Anyway, humour me and tell me what is wrong with:
Regardless of whether you believe in the same God as me or not, I'll follow my path, and respect and honour you as you follow yours. I would appreciate it if you could do the same. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 3:40:21 PM |
I could point out that mine didn't force a person to disavow what they avowed so that I could feel better about my own personal 'disavowment' Which is your perception of what he wrote, it definately wasn't mine...
How exactly is admitting that I cannot prove to anyone the God that I believe in while still believing in it a disavowment.. ?
Mine also lacks the usual animosity towards, and sense of superiority over, Theists. I didn't sense a drop of animosity or superiority in what he wrote.. hence my "amen"..
I didn't realise it was a competition (and maybe it's not). Nor did I say it was any kind of competition... you implied such by attempting to improve upon (what else could your motivation have been??) what was to ME a beautiful statement of tolerance and peace toward ALL. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 3:49:42 PM | i can make a serious attempt to be tolerant toward all but I refuse to accept the abuses so many suffer as "OK" just because it isnt right in my face
i will not love those that torture ,disfigure and enslave
I will not love those that murder and torment the helpless
i will not love those that drive slower than me..
ok, i think that does it.... | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 4:00:35 PM | You didn't tell me what was wrong with:
Regardless of whether you believe in the same God as me or not, I'll follow my path, and respect and honour you as you follow yours. I would appreciate it if you could do the same.
Maybe there's nothing wrong with it. If there is, I'd like to know. Thanks. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 4:01:39 PM |
i can make a serious attempt to be tolerant toward all but I refuse to accept the abuses so many suffer as "OK" just because it isnt right in my face With all do respect... people will go on believing as they wish regardless of whether you approve...
And allowing others to have their beliefs does not somehow equate to saying that their actions are "okay" if they are harmful toward others...
That would fall under the realm of ethics.. which transcend religion, as well as the law... which have consequences once broken.
Romanticoptimist:
You didn't tell me what was wrong with:
Regardless of whether you believe in the same God as me or not, I'll follow my path, and respect and honour you as you follow yours. I would appreciate it if you could do the same. Nor did you respond to anything I wrote in regards to the statement which you attempted to improve upon... but since you seem so insistent..
Yours contains the ability to believe that your belief system is superior... his contained a message of equality.. therefore I favor the one that preceded yours.
Maybe there's nothing wrong with it. If there is, I'd like to know. Thanks. That doesn't make anything wrong with your statement necessarily.. it is just how I see it.
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 4:08:24 PM | laws are made by those that have the power to make and enforce them
right and wrong are not always a part of the deal
when it comes to sexual mutilation, gender slavery and institutionalized abuses , the local customs might not just be quaint and just fine for us to accept..
you have the right to swallow what you please just as i have the right to spit it out
and don't ever think that taking yourself too seriously won't give you psychic ulcers... | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 4:50:25 PM | seattlerain1 originally said:
If believers in whatever god(s) they believe in said, "there is absolutely no proof of my god, but I choose to follow my spiritual path because it feels right to me -- you should follow the spiritual path that feels right to you as well."
romanticoptimist responded with:
Well, unless someone died and made you "God" - - yours is just another opinion in a million opinions.
No one made me god, and I didn't express an opinion. I suggested that if believers would simply say the above, any argument about your god's existence wouldn't work... No one would say the god you believe in was the wrong one, or non-existent, or fake.
Why do you insist on arguing with everyone? Can't you see that the above statement is TRUE of your belief... of everyone's spiritual believes? Can't you see it can't be argued or denied or claimed to be false? Why would you argue against a bridge that can stop the arguing and start towards understanding?
And when you say, "no proof", what are you really saying? Clearly, for those who believe in the existence of "God" there was sufficient "proof" for them to believe.
There is no "proof".
BELIEVING in a god is NOT evidence of its existence. By arguing that you have irrefutable evidence of your god simply begs the question... may I see your evidence?
With no evidence other than "well, we are here, aren't we?" or "We're too complicated not to have a creator." You lose by default. If you stick with "I have no evidence but I believe in my god all the same" you gain credibility.
Do you have any issues with simply saying, "I believe because God feels "right" to me"? Why is that an improper answer or why does it take anything away from your god, his worshipers, or your church? Actually, isn't stating that there is absolutely no evidence for your god FAITH? If there is proof, faith isn't needed.
But here's what I'll offer you:
"Regardless of whether you believe in the same God as me or not, I'll follow my path, and respect and honour you as you follow yours. I would appreciate it if you could do the same."
I don't have a problem with that at all. It's actually perfectly in line with my spiritual beliefs. But it says NOTHING about the existence of any gods, which is what this thread is about.
James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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