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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/1/2008 4:23:08 AM | [Abraham negotiated with God about Sodom and won]
Not so, when encountering God, winning is a non-issue. When relating to God if it wasn't for God's "grace" there would be no relating. God's grace is freely given with no strings attached a gift, a privilege, a right, a position, etc. with no cost to the receiver.
When one refer to the blessings of God it is with this concept of grace in mind.
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/1/2008 10:19:08 AM | God's grace is freely given with no strings attached a gift, a privilege, a right, a position, etc. with no cost to the receiver.
When one refer to the blessings of God it is with this concept of grace in mind.
you go brother!!off to church.god bless. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/1/2008 11:15:03 AM | Not as far as I can see. There hasn't been anything outside the natural world going on for the past 1000 years at least according to most mainstream faiths. Most groups that start a new faith today are concidered cults though there's just as much proof of their gods as anyone else's. As science progresses forward, getting us closer and closer in our understanding of the way the universe works we've seen that there are many wonders out there and inside us that the holy books and faiths of the world had never imagined. If any of these mythologies are correct then why haven't they had anything to say or allude to to the effect of there being an infinite amount of other worlds, many of them similar to our own? Why do they often use fallacious logic and verifiably false stories (noah/utanapishtim's flood). Why don't they even give us a little tidbit of advice like boiling water is a good way to keep your body clean? It seems like a better way to make water not make you sick than blessing it.
If you believe in the bible, you have to at least acknowledge that some of the things in it are incorrect (order of the universe's creation, firmament, lack of dinosaurs, having unicorns) or barbaric (Leviticus, Sharia code). Why is it then if these things are either artifacts of a time gone by or misunderstandings about the way the world works then where do you stop? Do you stop at unicorns? do you stop at floods that use more than 10 times the amount of water on earth? Do you stop at a god who knows all that will ever happen, but who blames creatures he makes for things he knew they would do?
So my answer would be no. I see no reason the think there is a god, Abrahamic or otherwise.  | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/1/2008 1:14:14 PM | | ask a scientist who has faith what his testimony is. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/1/2008 4:56:33 PM | [but who blames creatures he makes for things he knew they would do]
It appears you do have some views on God:
1. He created
2. He relates to the created
3. He has fore-knowledge
4. He has rules, you break the rules you are held accountable and suffer the consequences (that's a good one for parents and children, works most of the time)
Although you have a tough time with this one:
5. The created has a free-will | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/1/2008 7:40:41 PM |
I said: Regardless of whether you believe in the same God as me or not, I'll follow my path, and respect and honour you as you follow yours. I would appreciate it if you could do the same.
seattlerain1 said: I don't have a problem with that at all. It's actually perfectly in line with my spiritual beliefs. But it says NOTHING about the existence of any gods, which is what this thread is about.
You said: Yours contains the ability to believe that your belief system is superior Mine contains the ability to believe my belief system is superior?
WoW! That's a reach. My statement focuses on mutual respect and honour. I'm a bit confused why you didn't get that. After all, seattlerain seemed to. Maybe you should have waited for his response before leaping in to impute your judgement as to my motives on my words. It would seem that you are quite alone in your judgement, and your conclusion is false and without merit. Even Seattle's only complaint is that it's potentially off-topic.  | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/1/2008 9:09:08 PM | | I think yes if one believes in god or his son (I always thought of them as two individuals lol) it must be taken blindly for there is no solid proof beyond ones faith. Look at every single culture alive today and the ones who laid the foundations for us. All of them have and did have ideals of what comes next and all of them have and had "gods" and an idea of a heaven or after world/after life an over world and an under world ect. The bible is a beautiful work of fiction and tales like any of these other cultures past and present and its completely in the hands and eyes of every person to hold their faiths godly or not. If you believe it and it feels good to your heart hold it close to you. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/2/2008 6:27:47 AM | [the Bible is a beautiful work of fiction]
You can not separate God from his revealed word, for to do so is to actually deny him and/or not understand him in the limited way we are allowed to in this world. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/2/2008 6:46:25 AM |
You can not separate God from his revealed word,
I did.....and he was entirely cool with it....it was a painless procedure...and we both survived. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/2/2008 7:43:19 AM |
God's grace is freely given with no strings attached a gift, a privilege, a right, a position, etc. with no cost to the receiver. Unless we say "thanks but no thanks". All of a sudden, there are plenty of strings.
I mean think of it, if you believe, your brain is working properly, so you go to heaven (or allowed into his kingdom). But if you don't believe, obviously your brain isn't working as it should, so he'll burn you. For an eternity to boot? Sure doesn't sound like my god.
I heard a Muslim cleric on the tube once. "God punishes those who love him most"
I'll take a pass on that one. lol.
Eddie Izzard:
"Cake or Death"
"Uhh.. Cake Please"
"well... were out of cake"
"so you mean my choices are 'Or Death'?"
"Then I'll have the chicken please." | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/2/2008 7:52:57 AM | Eddie Izzard:
"Cake or Death"
"Uhh.. Cake Please"
"well... were out of cake"
"so you mean my choices are 'Or Death'?"
"Then I'll have the chicken please."
ok.heres the chicken.you will have to die later though.god bless. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/2/2008 11:26:24 AM | Verily I did see Him...and Lo! He did touch me with his Noodly Appendage...and his wisdom was pasta-long to me. *Makes the sign of the Fusili* "Arribatta arribatta, canelloni a bolognese funghi romano al dente al dente...RAmen"  | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/2/2008 2:12:50 PM | OK. Last one. Then I'm gone.
I believe in god. But he sho 'aint the bad one many people portray.
Here's a revelation for you; Not ONE human soul will be lost. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/2/2008 2:13:02 PM | Dantwice, I was speaking supposed will of God in the same way I would speak of the will and actions of Zeus or Ra. If I'm discussing ancient greek religion my speaking of a mythical character as if they had the will of a living person doesn't make them any less non-existent, and it doesn't make me believe in them any more than before or show that I secretly do believe in Zeus.
Also, to acknowledge that the Abrahamic god has foreknowledge is to assume he is malevolent toward us and had the intention to be so before he created us, since if he sees all things before and after they'll happen then even accounting for free will he still sees all things, including what we will do with our free will. This means he created Adam and Eve with the foreknowledge that they'd eat of the tree of knowledge. If he knew that given the chance to, they would do this and he also knew he didn't want them to do this, Why not put the tree of knowledge and the tree of life outside the garden of Eden? He had the ENTIRE REST OF THE UNIVERSE to put those two trees in. Sounds like that is a god that set us up to fail, knowing that we would do so, if he's true. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/2/2008 6:10:57 PM | [He had the ENTIRE REST OF THE UNIVERSE to put those two trees in]
I am not sure if you sound disappointed or angry or if you feel like you had a better plan. I am curious as to what your plan would have been, hind-sight and all. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/2/2008 9:38:07 PM |
Also, to acknowledge that the Abrahamic god has foreknowledge is to assume he is malevolent toward us and had the intention to be so before he created us, since if he sees all things before and after they'll happen then even accounting for free will he still sees all things, including what we will do with our free will. This means he created Adam and Eve with the foreknowledge that they'd eat of the tree of knowledge. If he knew that given the chance to, they would do this and he also knew he didn't want them to do this, Why not put the tree of knowledge and the tree of life outside the garden of Eden? He had the ENTIRE REST OF THE UNIVERSE to put those two trees in. Sounds like that is a god that set us up to fail, knowing that we would do so, if he's true.
You know this story gets much easier to deal with if you know two important details. Firstly, it's not originally a story from the Hebrew Bible. It's a myth derived from earlier Sumerian and Akkadian stories. Second and most importantly, the concept of literal historical narratives is a very late invention, relatively speaking and even by the time of the collation of the Hebrew Bible, around the First Temple period, had not even been conceived of yet.
Anyone who tells you different is, frankly, ignorant of the history of the written word, both religious and secular and most certainly doesn't have a clue about Near Eastern religion and how it developed. Likely they are only basing their ideas on a "faith based" perspective...and gently put, that might wash around the table in Sunday School with fellow believers but in an actual discussion out in public, "that dog won't hunt."
The writers of religious texts wrote in a metaphoric, poetic style. Even those people conveying historical events did so for the longest time. The very idea of recording or documenting history in a detailed and scientific fashion is only a couple of hundred years old. Keep in mind you are dealing with mythic concepts that are shaped by groups of people who emerge from certain cultures, times, and geographies. Their beliefs will literally be shaped by the land, interaction with their neighbours, the weather, wtc. Perhaps for a inerrant literalist, this will be blasphemy...but then any discussion of this nature will so it's simply best to ignore them anyway as a rational discourse will not be possible.
As to Abraham negotiating with God in Sodom, one sees the very nature of God changing throughout the Jewish scriptures as the people change. The concept of God evolves from henotheism (the prime god among many and the only one worshipped) to pure monotheism by the time of the First Temple and the Babylonian Captivity.
Obviously by the time Christianity rolls around the Christians have changed the nature of God again by making a Trinity, and an incarnation of one element of it which does something totally anathema to the prior Jewish vision of God.
And then again, the Muslim view is yet another view of the Abrahamic God...
Glad that's not something I have to deal with except as an observer.
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/2/2008 11:38:56 PM |
[Abraham negotiated with God about Sodom and won]
Not so, when encountering God, winning is a non-issue. When relating to God if it wasn't for God's "grace" there would be no relating. God's grace is freely given with no strings attached a gift, a privilege, a right, a position, etc. with no cost to the receiver.
One rabbi comments this story as follows: in the course of this negotiation, Abraham held God to ethical standards, and God agreed He is not above His own ethics. Hence, as the rabbi points, communications between God and humans are a two-way street... and yes, God does change as people change, absolutely. A point worth mentioning...
(BTW - in response to someone's private mail - many rabbis believe in reincarnation, many don't, the Jewish holy books simply don't say anyting on the subject one way or another. Judaism has been largely formed as an antithesis to the Egyptian faith, and as thus simply discourages too much thought about the afterlife. Talk about overcompensating... Every rabbi will tell you to think about here and now, I mean, we are alive and that's what matters. ) | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/3/2008 10:23:08 AM |
abc said:
Talk about overcompensating... Every rabbi will tell you to think about here and now, I mean, we are alive and that's what matters.
Maybe I'm not an secular humanist... maybe I'm a Jew. :-)
James, Port Orchard, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/3/2008 11:59:28 AM | | Maybe... do secular humanists believe in reincarnation? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/3/2008 12:46:33 PM | Huge thread with lots of attention. Now...for the REAL answer to the original question!
Yes...there is a god...as long as YOU believe there is.
How many "gods" has mankind had over the centuries? Did these "gods" exist. Of course they did...to all those who believed and worshipped them. When that belief and worship dies out, so does the "god".
The "Jehovah" god of christianity admits there IS other "gods". "Thou shalt have no other gods before me!" One of those pesky 10 commandments I believe. Notice the wording....he places himself FIRST...before other gods. So, as long as you recognize him as the primary functionary, everything is cool.
Ask yourself...why would anyone place themselves as first if there was only one? Hmmm.... | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/3/2008 1:02:50 PM |
The "Jehovah" god of christianity admits there IS other "gods". "Thou shalt have no other gods before me!" One of those pesky 10 commandments I believe. Notice the wording....he places himself FIRST...before other gods. So, as long as you recognize him as the primary functionary, everything is cool.
Ask yourself...why would anyone place themselves as first if there was only one? Hmmm....
Well if you saw my post, as religious historians have rightly observed, the view of the God of Abraham has evolved over time.
He wasn't always just the only game in town. Back in the very very beginning he was one of the Sons of EL and even EL wasn't the only game in town in a polytheistic universe. But henotheism is the progression of believing in the idea that your tribes' god is bigger and better than everyone else's.
Maybe you have a run of good luck in battle, good crop years, healthy births. Your god is clearly smiling on you and not your enemies. Therefore, he is clearly more powerful. The people of the Near East literally also believed that their gods dwelled on earth and that their power came out of their temple dwelling places. This also affected how their power could and would be perceived. As far as can be perceived historically, the god of Abraham has conglomerate origins in several deities that eventually converge into one single deity cult much much later in history, much like any other multifaceted complex deity like Brahma of Hinduism.
Later Judaism rejects this notion by portraying God as a single unified entity but the multiple names of God betray the original because hidden in those names are the original godnames of the origin deities. As well, in the mystical study of Jewish Kabbalah, the multiple emanations that reflect the multiple aspects of divine power in creation reflect the spheres of influence in nature that would ordinarily be assumed by the various gods or goddesses in a polytheistic pantheon of deities.
This is NOT commonly accepted amongst Jews, nor even among Jewish Kabbalists and is noted as my opinion but is also the opinion of many scholars of Near Eastern Religion and Western Mysticism. Those seeking further information on sources can contact me offline. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/3/2008 1:39:32 PM | Personally, I feel one God vs. multiple gods/goddesses is a false dichotomy. If we don't even know what God is, how can we meaningfully postulate if God is one or many or both or neither? Is a whale one or many, from an amoeba's standpoint? (credit to Isaak Azimoff for that one). Of course, if your religion says God is one, then you go by it... and it's true for you... for this software engineer, the difference between monotheism and paganism is more akin the difference between different styles of programming (structured vs. object-oriented). Different abstractions/models for humans to wrap our very limited brain around, but ultimately the same. Sorry about getting techie in this thread.
On scientific or intellectual proof of God - sure, there is none, I believe this fact has been established since Emmanuel Kant's times... so what? The Intellect is only one part of who we are... is not our spirituality the best proof that Something we can't define exists?
Many scientists I know feel that faith and sience are two fairly independent cognitive processes... would be nice to connect them together some day, but then, it would be nice to connect Gravitational, Electromagnetic and other fields together, too. I believe that whoever comes up wtih the Great Unification Theory will also come very close to proving the existence of God. Of course, this God might turn out to be quite different from all we could imagine...
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/3/2008 4:43:19 PM | abc,
My experience with Jewish brothers is that they are not very concerned about life after death and you confirmed that with your remarks. That really doesn't compute with my mind or faith, so we simply agree to disagree. Done deal.
Back to winning. Winning is not the issue. God on occasion has recanted. Our covenant with God is not one between equals. Only by the grace of God has he recanted.
Surprise, I am the someone. Life in the hear and now is very short compared to eternity. Of course reicarnation allows you another chance and another and another.
This is not a cheap shot but an observation: Most Catholics and Jews have problems with this "grace" thing like in Amazing Grace by John Newton. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/3/2008 9:31:46 PM | I believe in God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I've felt the presence in such an intense unexplainable experience that nothing could make me doubt it as truth. I don't need to see any scientific doubts placed before me because I have faith....and that faith will never be distorted for any reason.
We all know right from wrong and the choice is ours. God gives us free will to make those decisions and when that final day of judgement comes, we will be the only ones held accountable for them.
To anyone who isn't sure whether or not He exists, I'd certainly prefer to error on the side of believing...than not! Of course that's my feelings on the topic and as much as I'd love to lead everyone there, some times we have to let others find their own way. I'll not argue, nor flame....but instead show love and compassion....pray, and have faith that some day they will.
Amen  | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 6/4/2008 9:16:14 AM | romanticoptimist on 5/30/2008 wrote to me a very lovely message:
I asked: What does Jesus say about the claim that the Catholic Church is the only legitimate Church?
Bless your heart. I had almost forgotten all about you - but then I took a glance and here you were still announcing against me from the roof tops. I respect, if nothing else, your tenacity (If I may be so bold).
To which I responded most appropriately that Jesus said, as is detailed in the book of Matthew 16 "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church"
That is my answer to your request - plain and simple and drawn from the only source, which taken along with The Tradition of The Catholic Church, that I consider authoritative on the subject, "The Holy Bible".
Please speak plainly, are you claiming "the Roman Catholic Church is the only legitimate Church of Jesus Christ" or not.
You attempt to manufacture that my response is anything less than clear and well stated. So, to play into your arena - YES that is exactly what I believe. So flame on me brother, flame on me.
If you are, then we have nothing more to talk about and you have confirmed my suspicions that the core of ecumenism is elitism.
As I stated before, I will not change your mind - and you will not sway me from our faith, but if you feel better being the one who closes the door on communication, well then as much as I'll regret it - I guess you are going to have to stop communicating with me on this point.
Just understand "c l e a r l y" that the reason you give for your shunning me is not because of elitism so much as it is because in Roman Catholicism we believe that Jesus Christ (who is God incarnate) founded The Roman Catholic Church as mentioned above. Further, the position is clearly stated that The Roman Catholic Church acknowledges the legitimacy of The Orthodox Church as sister church and all Protestant and quasi-Christian Church's who have fallen away from The Roman Catholic Church are ecclesiastical bodies who are supportive to Christ's plan of salvation. However, The Roman Catholic Church is central to this plan of salvation.
I hope that was clear enough for you and the readers, because I stand in defense of this statement to the not-so-bitter end.
And that saddens me because for as long as one group of sibling believes themselves to be the "real" children, they consider the "others" to be "less than" and that will always prevent the oneness that Jesus prayed for in His High Priestly Prayer:
It wasn't Jesus who said that he was shutting the door to the dialogue, Brother, it was YOU. I'm sure that your faith encourages you to be accountable even to your God?
I asked: If you knew something that was harmful to the Catholic Church and was a crime or an immoral act, would you reveal it or not? What is more important, the truth and justice or the Catholic Church?
Why wouldn't I do the right thing, Brother? Because I am Catholic - isn't that a little cynical for you to imply in all your open mindedness?
And here is my problem because that group is then placed higher than justice and truth, and thus becomes an idol.
Well, you in all your exaltation are perfectly free to have your problem with me and my belief system and my Church and whatever else it is you want to point your finger at. I am not afraid, nor am I ashamed, God save us and will preserve us.
Again, you insinuations do not go unnoticed, but your worn out arguments merely do not warrant a dignified response.
Having dealt with those who have been abusers and abused in the Catholic Church, I can say that the most common excuse given for staying silent was to protect "the good name" of the Catholic Church.
There it is, Brother, you have cast the first stone - but I turn the other cheek and I ask you to deliver how ever many blows you feel will satisfy your God. Because indeed the accusations of the horrors of The Inquisition has not mitigated my faith in The Church founded by Jesus Christ and sustained by Pope Benedict XVI - neither will your attempt to cheapen and soil the merit and integrity of our Church.
Adolf Hitler was Lutheran - do I throw rocks at Lutherans and blame them for the Holocaust? Of course not because to do so would merely distract the readers, as your post attempts to do, from the reality of the facts.
Lutherans are no more responsible for The Holocaust then any of we good Catholics are responsible for the misdeeds of those who have been purged from The Church and who, now that Pope Benedict XVI has been installed, will continue to be ferreted out so that The Church continues to undergo it's cleansing.
We clear the way for a coming golden age wherein The Church will accomplish Her Mission more fully by the ardent and zealous believers who will seek to restore the world here and here again. | |
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