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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 12:42:12 PM | As for me, I choose to believe in God as opposed to Nothingness causing everything to exist. If it were not for the weird behavior of fermions (electrons with a negative half spin and other classified particles of quanta) we would not have matter. Because of this weird behavior these type of particles build shell, which create matter. Bosons on the other hand have a full spin and no weirdness and do not create matter, photons and gravitons. At the smallest of particles we have charmed energy (quarks, penta-quarks), the core of the nucleus of both matter and antimatter. Smaller still is force and strings and what is force. When come down to it all we know for sure is we have waves or vibrations. In other words you yourself are made of nothing.
The atheist says I am nothing and nothing is from whence I came, the theist says, I am something created from nothing by the vibration's of God's voice. For me the overwhelming evidence is I was created rather than just happened to exist. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 12:56:24 PM | there is plenty of evidence for all these things
Let's see it. Let me touch it. It's as amorphous as the 'evidence' you demand of the existence of God. You can't give me a handful of any.
Answer me this: Why do you claim all the other gods do NOT exist?
I said nothing of the kind. Santa Claus, BTW, isn't considered a 'god' by anybody.
Maybe the "spiritual" realm is just higher dimensions? It's possible.
Exactly. We have no idea because we are trapped in Dimension 3. We can see 1 and 2 but the rest are only a concept.
Or... is the entire universe a being?
Maybe Horton!  Seriously - Horton Hears a Who is a philosophical observation of our existence - I love it  Maybe we're microorganisms on the butt of a much larger being.
In other words you yourself are made of nothing.
Yes! Exactly! Isn't it beautiful? We are made of the same things our thoughts are made of! If that doesn't blow people's minds, they're just not paying attention.
PS good post, Ravenstar. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 1:04:02 PM |
As for me, I choose to believe in God as opposed to Nothingness causing everything to exist.
Hmm... I choose to believe both... This is only my opinion but it isn't contradicted by science... There isn't really such a thing as nothingness because it is filled with potential... Pure potential is what the Taoists called the Tao and is God without self awareness... Not until the Tao made the leap to God with a conscious choice for difference, splitting Us into all aspects of experience did potential energy make the leap to actualized energy creating "big bang" after "big bang" (just like particles appearing out of "seeming" nothingness in vaccuums). | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 1:06:45 PM | Merrylass
I think I love you
Sometimes when I meditate upon "the source" there is an experience (a hint really) of such vastness there is no way I could describe it.. but it encompasses all of reality as I know it and it moves like a tapestry of energy, sparkles and waves, interconnectedness and incomprehensible beauty and a sort of music (vibration?). I have been fortunate to glimpse this a few times... wish I could share it but it's beyond language. It is NOT anthropomorphic though.. just a sense of incredible intelligence and a sense of "awareness" like feeling one is being watched but without the creepiness factor, just pure awareness. Whether this is "god" I could not say...and I think the term "god" is just too limiting... it's more like a all-encompassing and universal consciousness.. at least that what it feels like.
I suspect we may discover that our entire reality is constructed of "thought"... tickles me pink!
Namasté | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 1:17:13 PM | Way back early in the thread, rockondon said that there was no evidence for or against God, and "when I'm confronted by an absence of evidence I prefer to suspend judgement."
My question to everyone who feels this way: Do you also suspend judgement about the existence of unicorns? Mermaids? The Celestial Teapot? The Flying Spaghetti Monster?
In science, there's something called the Null Hypothesis. Basically, in order to support the notion that something exists you have to falsify the notion that it doesn't exist. So if you invent a new medicine, you have to prove it works better than a placebo.
If you have a good imagination, you can come up with all sorts of things you don't believe in: an invisible pink unicorn, little people living on a dust mote, or Morlocks living in the core of the Earth. How easily could you live your life if you had to suspend judgement on all of these? If, with every step you took, you had to consider the possibility you were destroying an entire civilization living on that pebble or blade of grass, how could you do anything?
The Null Hypothesis is not only necessary for science, it's necessary for just living our daily lives. So, why should God get special dispensation here? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 2:09:34 PM | Yes, I do. I CAN do that.. and I absolutely do it all the time
I don't know if there aren't morlocks or unicorns or even faeries (or dryads, kelties, aliens, ESP...ect...DRAGONS!!!)... they COULD exist.. and that's where I am at.. the field of potential. I can not in good conscience call myself open-minded if the POSSIBILITY of that which I have not experienced is ruled out. If I do that I have prejudiced myself against any or all evidence to the contrary.. and therefore am NOT truly open-minded and have shut the door to learning anything new. And I like the Flying Spaghetti Monster...as a mental construct and a symbol of the illogic of some people's belief systems he most certainly does exist. R'amen
ALL is Possible.. or so I have been told. Now probable is a completely different thing. Then we get into theoretical mathematics. I don't think there is a theoretical physicist who could say that there is anything that is "impossible".
It takes more imagination to suspend judgement than it does to make a judgement. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 2:10:56 PM |
Merrylass
I think I love you
LOL! Great! Change genders and we'd have a good thing going. 
more like an all-encompassing and universal consciousness.
Agreed.
I suspect we may discover that our entire reality is constructed of "thought"... tickles me pink!
Me, too. It's delicious!
Namasté, Ravenstar
Merry | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 2:50:59 PM | Merrylass wrote:
To unbelievers: prove that ANY abstract concept exists. Give me a photo of 'thought'.
Sure:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/brain/scanning/cat.html
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/brain/scanning/pet.html | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 2:57:23 PM |
As for me, I choose to believe in God as opposed to Nothingness causing everything to exist.
What caused god to exist? If you say that god always existed then I say the universe always existed. If you can believe in an uncreated god then you can believe in an uncreated universe. The difference is that we can observe the universe.
The atheist says I am nothing and nothing is from whence I came
I haven't heard any Atheists say this. I'm not even sure what you mean by nothing. If you mean the vacuum, then it should be pointed out that the vacuum is not nothing. Indeed, it's an infinite sea of energy.
For me the overwhelming evidence is I was created rather than just happened to exist.
The overwhelming evidence is that energy/matter can neither be created nor destroyed. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 3:00:34 PM | That's a picture of the brain during the thought process and doesn't show an actual thought.
Picture a sphere in your head which is bigger than your head... Empirically, it can't be done but there it is. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/19/2008 11:06:07 AM | No one knows the Nothingness, for it is God. Indeed, the prime mover of all things is beyond what is, and therefore unknowable. Something, on the other hand is knowable and is a reflection of the the Unknowable. I agree Nothingness is not a vacuum, all we know is Something exists. Our dreams and meditations tell us that we are something else than this body in which we reside. The true us is of the Nothingness and we long to join this None-thing and perhaps to maintain our self perception.  | |
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| Is there a god
Posted: 3/19/2008 5:27:34 PM | | My criteria would be 'Does accepting and following God make me a better person?' and the answer is mostly definately yes. People who insist on proof are missing the point. the message from God given to us whether it be via Jeus Christ, Buddha, Mohammed....is one of love and living life in a good and positive way. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/19/2008 6:52:14 PM | That's a picture of the brain during the thought process and doesn't show an actual thought.
That is an actual thought. Thoughts are a kind of brain activity. If you think that thoughts are something more than this then provide some evidence to back that up. | |
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| Is there a god
Posted: 3/19/2008 6:58:56 PM | My criteria would be 'Does accepting and following God make me a better person?' and the answer is mostly definately yes. People who insist on proof are missing the point. the message from God given to us whether it be via Jeus Christ, Buddha, Mohammed....is one of love and living life in a good and positive way.
If that's true then we should see better behavior from Theists than we do for Atheists. Do we? Not really. Atheists are actually under-represented in the prison system. I wonder what percentage of terrorists are Atheists. Most people on the planet are Theists. If Theism is so good then why is the world in such a sad state? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/20/2008 10:00:25 AM | yes there is a God... that is, capital"G"
how do you think you were put into exsitance?
who made you?.....God! | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/20/2008 10:04:33 AM | No one knows the Nothingness, for it is God. Indeed, the prime mover of all things is beyond what is, and therefore unknowable.
So if god is unknowable, how can you know he is nothingness...how do you even know if he's the "prime mover", according to you, he's unknowable.. as well, how do you even know god is "he" ? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/20/2008 12:41:35 PM | dweebeeboy said:
yes there is a God... that is, capital"G"
how do you think you were put into exsitance?
who made you?.....God!
So who made this god that you believe in?
If you claim your god as ALWAYS existed, that will beg the questions, "then why can't the universe have existed for eternity?"
Now, as to this "capital "G"" thing... It was very nice of Christians to usurp the generic word of 'god' and make that THE NAME of their god. It would be akin to GM calling its newest offering "Car" and getting upset when people talk about cars (small 'c').
Your god is only one of 10's of thousands, dweebeeboy and if I ever refer to him, I generally say 'Christian god', which is true and proper. Saying "God" implies that all the other GODS are lesser somehow.
James, Port Orchard, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/20/2008 1:30:43 PM |
If you claim your god as ALWAYS existed, that will beg the questions, "then why can't the universe have existed for eternity?"
Which in turn would beg the question, "is the universe God?"
Seems that some picture God as a bearded old man rather than the spirit or force that Jesus said He is. We could be seeing "God" every moment of every day but because the idea is that He has a human form, His true nature is missed leading some to say there is no God.
The real debate is whether there is an intelligence who is the primary cause/mover in the universe or whether we humans are the best that random chance has to offer.  | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/20/2008 4:16:43 PM | The real debate is whether there is an intelligence who is the primary cause/mover in the universe or whether we humans are the best that random chance has to offer.
I don't see that it has to be limited to that. The universe is thought to be between 13 to 14 billion years old. Remember, humans have been around for a mere 150,000 years or so, drop in the bucket comparatively speaking. Within the 13 to 14 billion years of the universe, life elsewhere may have also started by chance on another planet(s), so we may not be the best random chance has to offer, there may be, may have been, or may even yet to come... life much more advanced than we could ever be. Then again, maybe not... It's OK to say "I don't know"....
What we do know is that there IS life in the universe, the evidence is this planet, and us who live on it. We have never had evidence in the universe for a god or a "prime mover". We also know that chance occurrences can happen. So if we apply occam's razor, what's more plausible ? Life has and can start by chance/happenstance ? Or there is some alpha/omega entity pulling the strings? We have evidence of life and chance, but not a "prime mover".
Hume's Maxim:
"The plain consequence is (and it is a general maxim worthy of our attention), That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish."
So according to Hume, god NOT creating the universe would have to be more miraculous than god creating it, for the idea that "god created the universe" to be plausible. But we can think of ways that the universe may have been started that are NOT more miraculous than god creating it (chance being one of them), therefore god creating the universe is an insufficient explanation and not believed..I tried to make that as clear as I could, anyone else can do better, by all means... | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/23/2008 9:05:34 AM |
I don't see that it has to be limited to that. The universe is thought to be between 13 to 14 billion years old. Remember, humans have been around for a mere 150,000 years or so, drop in the bucket comparatively spaking. Within the 13 to 14 billion years of the universe, life elsewhere may have also started by chance on another planet(s), so we may not be the best random chance has to offer, there may be, may have been, or may even yet to come... life much more advanced than we could ever be. Then again, maybe not... It's OK to say "I don't know"....
I have many atheist friends, and love to debate, we agree to disagree and maintain our friendship. In the above quote, we agree. And who knows if this is the first expansion of the universe, or the quintillionth expansion, if the Big Bang theorist are correct. We deal in theory, of what we perceive. If life exist here, than why not out there in the expanses of the universe, or in other dimensions united at the quanta levels. Perhaps there are quintillion of dimensions, not just the 11 theorized by linear thinking scientists. Maybe, these dimension overlap at certain wave lengths were they can only interact at certain brainwave length, such as the Alpha and Theta level, which would explain hypnagogic and hynopompic dream hullincination. Perhaps instead of one universes, universes exist at the infinity level. All have been theorized and contemplated, yet; are not observable and therefore, as of yet, not provable.
Perhaps someday they will devise a imaging devise, which will be able to take pictures and reveal that we are indeed surround by a host of beings invisible to us, except when we sleep and are brain waves are function at the Alpha/Theta level. Revealing our dreams are more real than we believe.
The main disagreement between atheist, and theist is the theist believes at the beginning there was a "push","prime mover" in the beginning, rather; than happenstance causing everything to come into existence. Neither, answer satisfies the other. Either you believe the universe is eternal, or God is eternal. In your case you the unverse has the same qualities as a god. It created itself. I believe, that which is unknowable created all things, whether it is illusionary or not. Don't you love it when other tell you what you believe.
Neanderthals, had a larger brain capacity and buried their dead in a ritual manner, giving us evidence they believed in an afterlife and had a conscience. It seems their only goal in life was to improve their stone knives, the sharpest of which survive to this day are sharper than are best scalpels knives. Perhaps, indeed, someday God will create a better more improve species, who knows. I know I have a spirit, and I am more than this meager shell I inhabit. My life force shall never perish, though its shell return to the nothingness of which it came. I have existed from the beginning of time in many forms, and shall exist again after this life is finished. Remember, there is more than what is observable to the senses. For we sense reality in a very narrow bandwidth. Don't be narrow minded. Olan | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/24/2008 10:48:36 AM | Is there a God?
From my perspective, if there were no God, this discussion would not exist.
The way I see things, there are as many deities as there are people who have considered the concept; whether those people love, worship, have faith, believe, don't believe, dismiss, deride or decide to give their lives in His/Her/Its/Their name or service.
From what I've observed, He/She/It/Them exist in reality as much for the people who believe as for the people who do not. Some people have all the proof of existence they need, some seek proof, others need no proof at all but know that they do not walk this path alone. Yet others consider the idea of the supernatural and see too many flaws in it, or see no evidence, or think it illogical, or silly.
From what I can ascertain, we all have our own personal experience of, relationship with and thoughts about the idea of the divine. To my mind, each of those individual thoughts, relationships, experiences and interpretations are as valid as the next.
Like beauty, the ethereal is in the eye (and in the heart and mind) of the beholder. Perception of God is personal. Tangible or not, knowable or not, provable or not ... your god, as you experience He/She/It/Them, exists (or does not) in your reality ... and in my reality, that's all that really matters. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/24/2008 11:15:48 AM | Like beauty, the ethereal is in the eye (and in the heart and mind) of the beholder. Perception of God is personal. Tangible or not, knowable or not, provable or not ... your god, as you experience He/She/It/Them, exists (or does not) in your reality ... and in my reality, that's all that really matters.
So what would happen if 2 omni-potent(all powerful), omni-science(all knowing), and omni-present(present everwhere), God's should meet up with each other..? And where could they meet?
If being God requires these attributes that are listed, then there can only be one God. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/24/2008 12:22:59 PM | | first we must consider the different races of people and the mass varieties of animals and plant life on this planet and in fact the planet itself.second we must understand that it was mankind that gave god a gender and appearance (physical).third the common denominator of all living things on this planet whether a blade of grass or an animal or whatever is the presence of life and without this life force they would not be alive,this life force within all living things is what our god consists of our god is not a physical being of any sort so to believe in a physical heaven or hell is redundant,and lastly the reason for this physical creation is to be a host for this life force within all living things. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/24/2008 1:31:20 PM | I guess this is a pretty broad question but I would hope that there is a god but how can anyone be so sure when there is not a real evidence of such. Must it all be taken completely by faith? What is the best evidence for and against?
Well lets see, If I worship an idol made of gold and call it god is it real?
If I worship money and call it my god does that make money not real?
If I worship the Earth and call it my god does the Earth become imaginary?
If I worship the Sun and call it my god does the Sun still exist?
All of these can and have been gods.
So is your question is there a Deity that is unknown? If a person can call a rock a god then that there is an unknown Deity is more plausible to me then a form made of gold being a god, but there is proof that people have worshiped rock, trees, the Sun, the Moon etc.. What makes the Sun a god? That people worship it and call it god? If a god is a god because people worship it and call it god, then yes there is a God. That in the most basic sense of is there a god? There are hundreds of gods.
Is there more in Heaven and Earth then human are aware of? The only sane answer is yes there is more in Heaven and Earth then people are aware of. If people have/do call rocks god I don't see as how something beyond human comprehension would not be considered god.
So yes there are hundred of gods, one or more of which may be supernatural or beyond humans natural experience. It is a big universe even if we were at the center of it just a few hundred years ago. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/24/2008 1:31:52 PM | Msg. 147:
So what would happen if 2 omni-potent(all powerful), omni-science(all knowing), and omni-present(present everwhere), God's should meet up with each other..? And where could they meet?
LOL!
The first thing that comes to mind are those Looney Tunes characters, Sam and Ralph...
From Wikipedia: Most of the cartoons begin at the beginning of the workday, in which Ralph and Sam go to a meadow where sheep graze, exchange chitchat, and punch into the same time clock. /... / At the end-of-the-day whistle, Sam and Ralph punch out their time cards, chat amiably, and leave, presumably only to come back the next day and do it all again.
I think such Gods as you describe meet up all the time in contemplation, consideration and conversation with all manner of ensuing results - depending on scope and the willingness and/or ability of those involved to accept divergence or similarity. | |
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