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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 3:10:48 PM |
Really?? So HOW did the Christian god create everything out of nothing? Don't just say, "he's GOD", but explain HOW something came from nothing. In your own post you say it's a "miracle" *AND* you know how it was done. That's a good trick.
He spoke it into existence. Words have power.
Of course, if I ask how your god came to be, you'll just say it's always existed, which is a hypocritical argument at best (saying one thing HAD to have a creator but something else needed NO creator).
I don't see it as hypocritical at all but simply logic. The scientists say that the Universe is made up of a series of physical laws and they are still discovering and searching for more.
When something is subject to laws, that same something cannot be the lawgiver. That would be irrational. So therefore there needs to be something that is not bound by any law to create that which is.
I have to admit though, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by saying I as an atheist have a stronger faith and belief in magic. I readily admit I don't have a clue as to the nature of the universe and that "eternity" is to much to get my head around. It's just that there's absolutely no indication that an intelligent being created it all.
The more I see what science is discovering in this world of ours and the incredibly intricate ways it all is put together, the harder time I have in envisioning this Universe and world as being an accident or freak of the cosmos. To my mind it takes a lot more faith and belief that there isn't an intelligent designer behind it, then that there is. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 3:20:19 PM | Perhaps, you have boggle confused with baffle. Boggle, in the sense I applied it, means to hesitate or give second thought to something, whether it be moral, philosophical, ideological, or anything else. Whereas, baffled means to confuse or to astonish someone. Seems many people here have second thoughts or are hesitant in their beliefs, or why else post. If one is secure in what they believe, me included, they their only reason to post is to persuade someone to come to their point of view, the definition of preaching.
However, here, I believe we all have our points of views, and if open minded enough, we can see the others point of view while stating our own without, slander, without ridicule, after all the world is made out of opinions. Debating is fun; it is a sharing of ideas among a great diversity of minds. No one is a winner or a looser, rather all are winners having welcomed in new ideas, or ideologies.  | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 3:20:25 PM | I'm with you, E.Kyro - I understand that God cannot be seen, that He always was and always shall be, that he is our Creator, that is His nature and I believe in the spiritual world
I understand that some reject things that don't make sense to them but we all are different in our beliefs and our understandings | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 3:20:49 PM |
When something is subject to laws, that same something cannot be the lawgiver.
So then a legislative assemblyman, parliamentarian, or even a democratic population is not subject to laws it/they create(s)? Absurd.
Humans make laws and those same humans are subject to them.
Physical/scientific laws are facts of the natural world, and are derived from it, nature is subject to them... | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 3:30:03 PM |
So then a legislative assemblyman, parliamentarian, or even a democratic population is not subject to laws it/they create(s)? Absurd.
Humans make laws and those same humans are subject to them.
The office or position of legislative assemblyman, parliamentarian etc, is not subject to the laws or it would not have the power to change, overturn or create them. The humans who fill those offices however are subject to them. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 3:37:09 PM |
The office or position of legislative assemblyman, parliamentarian etc, is not subject to the laws
Incorrect. The position of any of the above can be limited by the very law it helps to create, and subject to them. The position of assemblyman for example may not have the power to command the armed forces, as prescribed in a law it created. Nice try though....
And what about the natural laws I mentioned? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 3:41:43 PM | You'll only know when you get to heaven or go to hell.
If there isn't, it won't matter. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 4:02:46 PM | Incorrect. The position of any of the above can be limited by the very law it helps to create, and subject to them. The position of assemblyman for example may not have the power to command the armed forces, as prescribed in a law it created. Nice try though....
That would only be because there is a greater authority to regulate it. That greater authority would then be required if the law needed to be`changed.
And what about the natural laws I mentioned?
What about them?
Nature is defined by the laws that bind it. It cannot create or make new ones. Therefore something else created and defined the laws. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 4:34:28 PM | When something is subject to laws, that same something cannot be the lawgiver.
Are god's actions random or governed by laws? If they are governed by laws then who created these laws? If random, then there are different kinds of random. Some random things have a Gaussian distribution. Others have a uniform distribution. Still others have a binomial distribution. Indeed, there are an infinite variety of random distributions. Who created these laws of randomness? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 4:36:28 PM | He spoke it into existence. Words have power.
How did god speak before he created words? How did he create before he had words and speech?
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 4:40:52 PM |
And what about the natural laws I mentioned?
What about them?
Nature is defined by the laws that bind it. It cannot create or make new ones. Therefore something else created and defined the laws.
Okay E.Kyro,
By YOUR argument, that means someone had to created the creator of the laws. Who did that?
I know, I know.... EVERYTHING needs a creator *EXCEPT* your god, right? He's existed for all of eternity and is exempt from laws such as old age, chaos theory, and disease.
Why should people believe your version of a god over another god?
James, Seattle, Washington, USA | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 4:42:33 PM |
How did god speak before he created words? How did he create before he had words and speech?
You'll have to ask God that one
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 4:58:14 PM | By YOUR argument, that means someone had to created the creator of the laws. Who did that? By definition "God" is self-created. But you already knew that.
I know, I know.... EVERYTHING needs a creator *EXCEPT* your god, right? He's existed for all of eternity and is exempt from laws such as old age, chaos theory, and disease. Now you're getting it.
Why should people believe your version of a god over another god? They shouldn't unless doing so is a response to their own conscience and done with integrity. And if you didn't already know that, you should have.
By the way, how are you doing with those quotes (not paraphrases)? You know the ones that support your slanderous claim that I show contempt for and attack atheists for their beliefs. Can't find them? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 5:57:06 PM | | There can be no answer to that question. Anybody who states that there is or isn't, is just not thinking deeply enough. To know that a God exists, would also imply that you know Gods will, etherway, You have to be a God to know a God exists. The question is meaningless and should only be used for speculative fun. If there is a God surely It would be wise enough to know, that it is imposible for any human to beleive in one. So I think going to hell if I dont beleive in God is out of the question. Infact A God would probably make you go to his heaven for not beleiveing in him because it is the wiser choice given our human abilities. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 7:13:59 PM |
I know, I know.... EVERYTHING needs a creator *EXCEPT* your god, right? He's existed for all of eternity and is exempt from laws such as old age, chaos theory, and disease.
Cause you keep thinking in terms of TIME which is a dimension of this Universe and subject to physical laws. "Outside" of the Universe is eternity. Something that exists in eternity always did exist because there is no time.
Why should people believe your version of a god over another god?
I haven't specified a particular god, James. I've so far only debated the necessity of an intelligence that created the Universe. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 8:05:09 PM | | If you've seen spirits or ghosts,that would be proof | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 8:11:52 PM | | Seeing spirits or ghosts would not be proof that there is a god. If assumming these spirits were a reality of nature and not a holusination. That would only imply that there are enities in this universe who have the properties of these spirits. This does not make the spirits gods or the idea of spirits to have anything to do with god. It makes only the idea that there are things in this universe that we have yet to understand. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 8:38:17 PM | To me God is unknowable, is other than Its creation and therefore cannot be spoken about with any certainty. What is revealed to us, is through encounter with the inner self, the sub-conscious mind, and has been that way from day one. No one has seen the face of god and lived, neither, has anyone heard Its voice. Those who claim to have heard it say it is unrecognizable and is later perceived as thoughts. No one has been able to say, "Here, this is God! Let me show you. Proof is not in the offing.
To find God, the individual must look inward, and listen as to what the self has to say. Those who choose not to find God or believe in It, does not change the fact that the Deity exist. They just cut off their own nose to spite their face. The spirit of a person is eternal, whether one believes it or not. I believe one is doom to be recycled until they become enlightened. And if they never become enlightened, then they are sent to the garbage heap to be destroyed. Fear the one that can destroy both matter and spirit for we certainly cannot create either! If you have ears, listen to your inner self. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 8:38:47 PM |
"I know, I know.... EVERYTHING needs a creator *EXCEPT* your god, right? He's existed for all of eternity and is exempt from laws such as old age, chaos theory, and disease."
Cause you keep thinking in terms of TIME which is a dimension of this Universe and subject to physical laws. "Outside" of the Universe is eternity. Something that exists in eternity always did exist because there is no time.
Right. My point exactly... the UNIVERSE has always existed and always will in one form or another. No 'god' is needed for that.
You argue that there MUST be an intelligent designer because of 'natural law', but but, to quote a GREAT MIND:
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being surprised at how well it fits its hole." - Douglas Adams
"Why should people believe your version of a god over another god?"
I haven't specified a particular god, James. I've so far only debated the necessity of an intelligence that created the Universe.
So you are willing to admit your god may easily be the wrong one, no matter which you believe in?
In either case, I don't believe we have to resort to magical beings living in the sky to explain every last thing we don't understand.
James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 10:16:46 PM | Right. My point exactly... the UNIVERSE has always existed and always will in one form or another. No 'god' is needed for that.
Think again. All the evidence points to a dying expanding Universe (which the Bible predicted 3ooo+ years ago btw) which had a beginning.
You argue that there MUST be an intelligent designer because of 'natural law', but but, to quote a GREAT MIND:
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being surprised at how well it fits its hole." - Douglas Adams
Neither he nor you seem to get it. The natural order of things is chaos, not fixed physical laws in whatever form they take.
In either case, I don't believe we have to resort to magical beings living in the sky to explain every last thing we don't understand.
Hark!! I hear the clang of a mind shutting its door!!
Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity, opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.
Albert Einstein | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 10:20:31 PM | | "Seeing spirits or ghosts would not be proof that there is a god. If assumming these spirits were a reality of nature and not a holusination. That would only imply that there are enities in this universe who have the properties of these spirits. This does not make the spirits gods or the idea of spirits to have anything to do with god. It makes only the idea that there are things in this universe that we have yet to understand" stated omegaom My family has seen many of them and I don't believe they were hallucinations.They are not mentally ill and don't experiment with drugs. After their experiences with these spirits their belief in God or a higher force is stronger then ever. They claim to have been given signs and awareness from these spirits that God does exists. I'm not expecting or forcing everybody to swallow everything I say. I'm just stating my opinion | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 10:39:16 PM | | I am not saying that you and your family have not seen a ghost, or that spirits do not exists, infact I am opened mined on this subject. I am just saying that the idea or reality of spirits has nothing to do with god. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 11:18:22 PM | Rather interesting how this develops:
Kyro:
When something is subject to laws, that same something cannot be the lawgiver.
I respond that people create laws all the time and are subject to them.. response:
Kyro:
The office or position of legislative assemblyman, parliamentarian etc, is not subject to the laws
I respond that a legislative position can only wield the power it itself has created in law, and is therefore subject to that law, ie not having the mandate to command armed forces due to the law that the legislative position created, therefore subject to that law.
Kyro:
That would only be because there is a greater authority to regulate it. That greater authority would then be required if the law needed to be`changed.
There is no need for a greater authority to "regulate" as you put it. THE LAW regulates what the legislator, and the power of the legislative position can and can't do. Who creates the law? The legislator using the position to do so, and is as already shown, subject to the law it creates.
Let's take your angle on it. If god is not subject to any of the laws of the universe it created, then it is not subject to the laws of logic, as logic is a part of this universe and has laws that follow. According to you, as I see it, god is not subject to these laws of logic. Therefore god can exist and NOT exist in the same space and time (violating law of logic, an outright contradiction), because he is not subject to those laws. How can something exist and NOT exist at the same time?
And this question has been asked a few times in the past as well... can an omnipotent god "create a stone so heavy he cannot lift"? How do you answer that catch22?
Let's assume god IS subject to these laws of logic, where, as Countibli asks, would these laws come from then? Certainly not god, as according to you, he would be subject to them because he did not create them.. so where do they come from? Would seem that whatever created these laws that god is subject to, has MORE power, as god must follow what is given to him as a law. The final "authority" would not be god's, but whatever created the law god must follow.
Let's assume my position is correct.. that whatever creates the law is also subject to it. So god creates the universe, and is subject to those laws that he created for it. Then how is he able to walk on water, start out with a couple of loaves and fishes, feed the multitudes and have more left over than what he started with? How can he break those physical laws if he's subject to them as well? If he's subject to them, biblical miracles cannot have happened... | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/27/2008 11:31:35 PM |
He spoke it into existence. Words have power.
In which case he was powerless as sound doesn't travel in a vacuum. (elementary grade physics) | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 7:18:30 AM |
He spoke it into existence. Words have power.
So after an infinity of time of just drifting around in the nothingness of nothingness your god got bored and created the entire universe just so he could put a man on a chunk of rock... and that man was bored, so he asked his god for someone to have sex with... and god screwed that up, so they threw her out of the garden and made a second woman more to God's liking?
And you say this with a straight face?
I don't see it as hypocritical at all but simply logic.
Logic? Let's see...
ALL THINGS need a creator.
The creator doesn't need a creator because he always existed.
So I ask again... what created your god? It's just as likely the universe has always existed as your god has (other than one sentence in your religious book that was written by a bronze age man).
Oh, and might I suggest when you pool together many posts by different people into ONE post, give each originator credit so it doesn't get confusing for people reading?
James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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