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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 201 | |
| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 7:35:27 AM | There's only truly One God, IMO, which I view as a sort of supremely Transcendent really unimaginable ... thing. An "IT' rather than a "Him" (although I realize to make it easier for our human minds we often use "He"). A Divine Life Force, a supreme Unity. It can be seen in a sense in everything in Nature and Life, for example the whole life cycle we see here on earth from the changing of seasons to human and animal life & death, everything. It is both creation & destruction. The movements of the planets. The things we have learned about recently of the eternal (expanding) universe.
I personally think this notion is best summed up through the One God of Judaism and Islam, primarily. I myself became a Muslim in June of '03, but I have to say I can't deal with the rigorous fundamentalist types (who are unfortunately the ones most frequently seen on TV, etc, & therefore recognized). I've only continued to "practice" on and off, on my own, but, personally I'm more into the mystical Sufi-type Islam.
This God we believe in has no need for any "sons" , daughters, mothers, partners of any sort; those man-made concepts are totally irrelevant when trying to talk about this kind of all-encompassing vast notion of One Transcendent God. The Holy of Holies in the Jewish Temple (when it still stood) was empty; something which filled General Pompey with a sort of supernatural dread when he finally entered it after subduing Jerusalem for Rome. He'd been expecting elaborate statuaries as he'd seen in Egypt, etc. The Ka'aba, the cube-shaped House of God in Mecca towards which all Muslims pray daily, is likewise empty. Because What is in It, just like What was in the Sanctuary in the Temple, is already all around us, and in us . There's no need for any statues of It, nor could anything remotely truly representative of It be made. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 10:18:49 AM | I read this all the time....
People confuse God (philosophy) with Religion (politics). They get pissed off, but they are pissed at Religion (and rightly so) because it, as an institution, invariably comes to issues of Control and Judgment.
Is it possible to have a purely philosophical discussion on what the nature of said divinity is? Obviously, you would have to agree there is (a) "(g/G)od" in order to have something about which to talk.
So, probably no conversation of that kind will happen, so now I ask myself "what kind of religion systems might we have if a majority of people, in this country, ascribed to the "God IS" philosophy?" For sure there would be a lot less focus on sin and guilt, and more focus on beauty and community. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 11:01:42 AM | This question has been bugging me for a while now...noticed the forum post so I thought I'd add my two cents worth.
I was brought up in a Catholic house..9 brothers and sisters worth or Catholic actually. Cable free home for most of my childhood lol. Sunday morning was a no option going to church proceedure until 16. I was an alter boy for quite a spell too. Went to Catholic schools only. The fact is...we were brought up so that there was really no question whether there was a god or not...it was just natural. There was, and you never considered otherwise.
Now I haven't been a church goer for my entire adult life...but just recently after seeing the movie I read the book "The Davinci Code". And I feel like I've been a naive moron for this entire time! Not that I completely agree with the book or movie, just that the possibility is certain that Jesus was actually a human being. Likely a brilliant, inspiring and wonderful human being, but a human being none the less. NOT the son of God as I was brought up to believe. I then read "Angels and Demons" and another called "The Templars". All books....and many many more I'm sure have documented proof that Jesus was a man.
My mom and I sat down last weekend and discussed the topic...she knows, though she won't admit it..........there is certainly enough proof to scare the life out of the Vatican, for damn sure. She believes there is a God, but admits that Jesus was likely a man. She thanks God daily...and that is her faith...and I respect her for that.
But how can anyone brought up like I was brought up believe anything that the church taught me all those years?? I wonder how many hours I spent practicing and believing? I wonder how my time could have been better spent if I was taught what I know now way back when I was a child? I'm thinking my life would have been incredibly different.
I hold nothing against my parents for their beliefs and what they gave me....but to the church, hmmmm, lets just say I have very very little respect for them at the moment. I welcome anyone to rebut what I've stated...please. I'm not trying to be rude about this at all...I'm actually incredibly interested. And being a bit of a debate demon......lets chat.
signed...cunfused acolyte. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 12:14:56 PM | | You dont have to beleive in a god in order to have a discussion about god. We have been doing that for centuries. The core beleif of Science is that there are no absolute truths, theories can only be disproved, not proved. And discussion is the main heart of science. I debate the idea's of God all the time, and I myself beleive that it is imposible to ever know if a god exists. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 205 | |
| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 1:10:10 PM | the possibility is certain that Jesus was actually a human being. Likely a brilliant, inspiring and wonderful human being, but a human being none the less. NOT the son of God as I was brought up to believe.
>>> Well put. It is nearly "certain" , yes. Almost any adult person who does not force themselves to think otherwise in order to maintain their long-held religious faith would have to admit that it is nearly certainly as you said above. An inspiring, interesting, wonderful human being? Yes. A prophet? Yes. A teacher? Clearly. A literally divine "son" of God (and also "part" of God AND at the same time literally God --- the Trinity --- and talk about confusing), who was immaculately conceived & born of a virgin who remained a virgin (even after his birth), who rose (literally) from the dead after three days and , again literally, "ascended into Heaven"??? Come on.
I'd actually buy it more if they didn't package it this way, so to speak. If Christian dogma simply said something more along the lines of, This was a great spiritual teacher, not unlike the Buddha really, so listen to the truths he spoke and learn from his examples; if that were all that was theologically required then I could feasibly be some sort of Xian (though not a Catholic). But when orthodox Christian belief essentially requires ppl to seriously confess faith in the things I just listed in the paragraph above, then I can in no way shape or form intelligently agree with those things. You can only suspend your totally natural adult sense of rationality and disbelief so far. In my opinion, a literal "son" of God, a literal "mother" of God, a literal virgin conception and birth, and a literal resurrection from the dead, not to even get into Trinitarian dogma, really goes above and beyond the breaking point for how much dogma I can will myself to believe. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 2:26:00 PM | | "I am not saying that you and your family have not seen a ghost, or that spirits do not exists, infact I am opened mined on this subject. I am just saying that the idea or reality of spirits has nothing to do with god." says omega The spirits stated otherwise to my family that God does exists. A couple of them were able to communicate. Call me crazy lol but it's true | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 2:42:25 PM |
Now I haven't been a church goer for my entire adult life...but just recently after seeing the movie I read the book "The Davinci Code". And I feel like I've been a naive moron for this entire time!
Give "The End Of Faith" by Sam Harris a read... | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 2:44:35 PM | | Is there a God. No one truely knows. No one on this earth anyway. While people tell you that they have seen God or felt him, all that is is usuing Gods name for what you cant explain. The truth is if there is a God what God is up there? The Muslim God. The Catholic God, the Chritian God? No one knows. People will even go as far as saying there is only one God. How do you know? Christianity was made in Rome where they believed in many Gods. Whos to say they were wrong? My thing is the only thing on this world that is true is you. Your brain! Its everything. Its your personal God. When you make a bad decision, God didnt do that, you did. On the other hand when you make a good decision you did that not God. Take credit for yourself and the great things we do as humans. People who started religion wanted to use this for minipulation(which they have done well) to run people. Making people give credit to something they know they have never seen beofre. lol Take credit away from yourself so that you lack confidence. You know why cause the brain is the most strongest thing a person will ever have in life. Look at your brain....see how easily munipulated you have been. Be for real with yourself. Have you ever seen God or Jesus? At least the Muslims know Alijah Muhamid lived. lol | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 2:47:21 PM | | Also if you know astrology you will find out that the God in the Bible is the Sun. You will then know who the 3 wise men are and you will understadn why we celebrate Christmas and Easter. Its all in the Sun. Do your homework! | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 2:47:56 PM | | If Spirits are real entites of another realm or dimension or whatever, they can not know a god exists anymore than a human, For as I stated before, To know that there is a god requires knowledge of god, and to have that knowledge you need to be a god. These sprits that you say talk to your family could be just as falible as humans they could be rulled by a supreme spirit that dictates he is god, and all the little spirits beleive him. It is a fact that your family knows nothing genuine about these spirits, except for what they tell your family. How do you know that spirits don't lie? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 3:01:57 PM | | Omega says"If Spirits are real entites of another realm or dimension or whatever, they can not know a god exists anymore than a human, For as I stated before, To know that there is a god requires knowledge of god, and to have that knowledge you need to be a god. These sprits that you say talk to your family could be just as falible as humans they could be rulled by a supreme spirit that dictates he is god, and all the little spirits beleive him. It is a fact that your family knows nothing genuine about these spirits, except for what they tell your family. How do you know that spirits don't lie?" Some lie and some don't. But we do have senses (although most of us don't know how to fully use them) that tell us what is good or bad. My family knows that the ones that communicated are good. But they also had bad feelings about others as well. I can accept that you disagree with me but You don't know if it's a fact that my family knows nothing about them. If you knew it was a fact then you would be God lol! | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 3:18:17 PM | | Man people are killing me. No one knows if there is a God. No one even knows if God is a Spirit. lol That is a word that was given to us. a spirit. We dont even know if Ghost are true. lol We know nothing accept what we physically go through. If you cant explain something dont say it was God, say you just dont know how that happen. this is the problem. God is suppose to be the Overall Ruler of everything. So if there are spirits, God run them too. If there are Ghost, God runs them too. If there is a high almighty power then we wont know because like you last 2 people have said to know of God you have to be a God. If your a God, why praise another? If your not a God, please be honest with yourself and just say you dont know what is up there if there is something up there in the first place. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 4:36:34 PM | I agree with what you say, Bethany2911
says her family sees spirits and the spirits say that there is a god. I am trying to tell her it is impossible to know there is a god. In fact it is impossible to know anything trully. Thats why we need a culture that is based on logic and reason, to be skeptical of every claim. If we dont we will have chaos (everybody beleiving in millions of different things) and we will never ever know not even the slightest bit of a truth about reality. Logic and reason are the best tools we have to understanding the cosmos and with a world that is over poppulated and a world with nukes, we must have rational thinking or else some nut might blow up the world because God told him to. Any way God or whatever gave us brains, lets start using them instead of beleiving every unreasonable story you are told, we should be questioning these stories and looking for suporting evidence. And as the evidence grows and grows so can your faith in the storie.
Bethany2911 I mean no disrepect. I am not saying your family didnt see spirits or that spirits dont exist, I claim total ignorance on the subject. I just dont know. If I did see a spirit, first I would be questioning my awarness at the time, then I would write down all the details that I seen. If I could rule out a halucination I would probably beleive that these spirits existed, but I would not make any claims as to what they are. If they told me what they were I would verify the possiblities with known physics . But I would not take their word as evidence as to what they are.
One day I was driving in my car with my friend on an overcast day around 3pm. I seen a dark round sphere maybe 200 feet in the air, it moved swiftly to my left about maybe 50 feet then it disappeared. I though maybe I was seeeing things, it happened so quickly, but I turned to my friend and he seen the same thing. You can make many claims as to what this could of been. It could of been an alien ship, a secret military experement, an object from another dimension passing into this one or any number of diferent explainations that I havnt thought of. Simply stated I dont know what that was. There are many things we do not know of in this universe, and to see a rare phenomenom is a gift. To say it was god for every unexplainable thing like sckoul said is very primitive thinking. Hunter Gatherers used to say lighting is from gods anger, yet now we know it is static electricty caused by the attration of opposite charges. Even knowing we cant know nothing 100%, we accept the laws of electricity because it supports all observations, and it hasnt been disproved yet. In the future we might get a new law for electricty and this one will be obsolite but we keep an open mind, and we keep trying to disprove our theories instead of proving them, and this in turns makes only the best theories survive. So we get wiser and wiser and our understanding grows and grows. Now if instead we claimed that god did it then we remain stagnet never growing, never understanding. God simply must be put out of every equation or explaination if we are ever to find any truths. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 5:15:58 PM |
Man people are killing me. No one knows if there is a God.
You know what all others know? WoW! Who died and made you "God"? 
Seriously, speak for yourself and let others speak for themselves. I know that God exists (no, that's not "preaching". It's responding to the absolute truth claim he made). If you don't, don't sweat it. But please spare me the arrogance that you can know for others.
Now, if you meant, "No-one can prove the existence of "God" to my satisfaction", I have no problem with that. But if that's what you meant, that's what you should have said. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 5:43:03 PM |
Now, if you meant, "No-one can prove the existence of "God" to my satisfaction", I have no problem with that. But if that's what you meant, that's what you should have said.
You can know up to your own satisfaction and that may be fine for you personally, but you can't say you know it for a fact for others to believe because facts aren't subjective like "knowing" God is. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 5:48:24 PM | Not that I completely agree with the book or movie, just that the possibility is certain that Jesus was actually a human being.
Actually the most likely possibility is that Jesus never existed. Search for the Historical Jesus thread to see what I mean.
I sympathize with you. I too was raised Roman Catholic, went to Church every Sunday plus the 7 Holy Days, and never question the Church or Bible until my 20's. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 6:01:53 PM | | Omega I totally understand where you're coming from. You don't have to write a story lol but you have very good points. I never said I knew everything. I believe what is closest to the truth in my eye.My opinion. Not everything in this world has logical explanation,but,for us humans if we can't comprehend it it must not be true lol!What's wrong with people believing in something? As long as a belief or a religion isn't used to hurt or control others there is no chaos. Just because others don't believe what you believe doesn't make them ignorant. We can find reasons and logical explanations for many things,but,as for spiritual we are physical and can't come up with reason and logic because we haven't reached that level yet.What if there are people that actually seen God or a higher force and they told you. You wouldn't believe them anyway and you would think they were crazy or liars because you didn't witness God.Or You have a lack of faith in people. So it really doesn't matter what I say does it? | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 6:23:53 PM | Good points, Bethany 
You know what all others know? WoW! Who died and made you "God"?
It wasn't me! 
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 6:44:30 PM |
You can know up to your own satisfaction and that may be fine for you personally, but you can't say you know it for a fact for others to believe because facts aren't subjective like "knowing" God is.
I didn't. I write plainly. I said what I said. And it was clean and clear enough that it doesn't need any translation from you (who died and made you "God"?). If you can't read simple English and feel the need to correct what I might have said or meant, I can't help you. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 7:59:43 PM | There are too many posts to this to read them all.
The best evidence that there is a God is our existence! If there wasn't an initiating cause we could not be the effect. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 8:03:24 PM | | YUP! There had to be Something to trigger the Big Bang and get all of this started | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 8:45:23 PM | Im sory for the long story Bethany, I sometimes get carried away, especially in arguments about God. I mean no harm, im just trying to defend my side of the argument. This subject is like politics, and can get alittle heated at times. I am probably going to get carried away again.
I dont have a problem with spitualality, and I agree that each person is entitled to have there own beliefs. But when it comes to governing this world, religion should have no say. Because we life in dangerous times and we need to make choices based on what we know with reason. It is mainly organized religion that I have a problem with, because they try to convert the world to their superstitious dogma, and this causes war and suferring. This is happening in the southern USA, where free thinkers are looked down upon, and are forbiden to teach the most successful, logical theory ever made, Evolution. This is one example of what would come if an organized religion rised to power. We would have a Dictatorship, where no freethinking is allowed. We would be back in the whitch hunt days. Why do you think the constitution says religion can take part in a government. It says so for a very good reason. And to think that it can;t happen again look again. The fundamentalist evangulist movement in the southern states is growing, they even have the american president Bush (the Dictator) as an aliie. Similar things are happening with the muslim religion. It is growing and growing, they allow no free thinking either. Soon there will be a war between the too. All that is needed to get a religous state is for 51% of the voters to vote one in. There are some countries in Europe where the muslim population is growing to almost that point. Now how do we combat the fundamentalist from gaining control and support. Simple, just spread the word of logic and reason like they spread their word,. Show their beleifs to be wrong, like they claim our beleifs to be wrong. But what stands in the way of the free-thinkers from combating the fundalmentalist is the moderately religious people, who are the majority. They don't allow freethinkers from putting down the fundalmental beleif in god, because it is apart of thier beleif too. But that is the only way to discredit the fundalmentalist, you need to show that god can;t be known. So thats why the freethinkers have to battle the moderatly religious people too. If the world was full of moderatly religious people, I wouldnt have a problem with that, but it always leads to fundalmentalism and organized religion. That is the reason I so openely debate the idea that God can;t be known. If you read your history, and you see whats happening in the world right now, you will know that organized religion is very very dangerous in a world with 6 billion people, and 50,000 nukes. My main purose in life is for the conservation of the animals and the enviorment. And I beleive there are 2 major threats to our planet, Organized Religion and Capitalism. So you see I dont mean to discredit your personal beleifs, I just want to discredit organized religion. Your beliefs just happen to get in the way. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 8:53:06 PM | [There are too many posts to this to read them all.
The best evidence that there is a God is our existence! If there wasn't an initiating cause we could not be the effect. ]
But what caused the first cause. Or who created God. This leads to infinities, which we mortals cannot even comprehend, try to think about it for a minute, it blows you away.
And even if there was a first cause that you can consider God. This does not mean its the God of the Bible. He could be a God that has nothing to do with our tiny speck of a planet. He could be a God that doesn't even know we exist. As I said before we just dont know. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/28/2008 11:47:10 PM | OmegaOm:
What I said: "The best evidence that there is a God is our existence! If there wasn't an initiating cause we could not be the effect."
And your comment:
But what caused the first cause. Or who created God. This leads to infinities, which we mortals cannot even comprehend, try to think about it for a minute, it blows you away.
And even if there was a first cause that you can consider God. This does not mean its the God of the Bible.
The question was is there a god. I didn't get into whether the god cause was the Biblical god. But now I will!
Here's how it works. First virtually everything in the universe is spherical or circular, so there is no beginning or end, there just is a forever, or infinity. And true, the past is endless and the future is endless, and at some point they meet.
Originally there was nothing. If you try to define nothing in terms of current science, the closest to it is energy. If you want to define it in terms of religion, the closest to it is spirit. Can you define energy when there is no container for potential energy, or mass for kinetic energy to do anything with? Can you define spirit in a universe where that is all there is? Nothing else exists.
Biblically we know God is a spirit. At one time that is all the universe, or rather multiple universes was...spirit. God took the substances which was of God's essence and created. Virtually all the recognizable universe is made up of 99.99999% space, or if you can acccept it -- NOTHING! And this nothing is derived from God's essence, or spirit. The fragments of rapidly moving mass that makes up everything we see were translated from energy, or more specifically spirit.
So what am I saying? There is no first cause of God. God is spirit and at one time spirit was all there was and it didn't have a beginning or end. A number of references in the Bible tell us that God has NO BEGINNING AND NO END. There doesn't have to be a first cause from a religious point of view. And there will never be one from a scientific point of view.
The mystics really get into this deeply. If you want find out more, get into Kabbalah, Zen, and Taoism. They all talk about the singleness of God and that all is God and all is ONE and we are all part of the ONE. | |
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| Is there a god?
Posted: 3/29/2008 8:36:15 AM |
So what am I saying? There is no first cause of God. God is spirit and at one time spirit was all there was and it didn't have a beginning or end. A number of references in the Bible tell us that God has NO BEGINNING AND NO END.
But how do you know this to be true. How do you know the men who wrote the bible where not just like us , just trying to understand this reality and give explanations for God existance. Why would God appear to them 2000 years ago, to show us his ways. Why doesn't he appear now. God must not of appeared to these prophits to show us a path of goodnes and enlightenment because, the 2000 years after are full of horror and violence, mostly in the cause of religion. Why not beleive in the greek gods. They where here first. They at least had more interesting stories. There are about 2000 differnet religions on this planet right now. So that would mean there are about 2000 differnent ideas as to what god is and does. That just goes to show you how confused and unknowning we are on the subject of God. Christianity is just at the top of the heap for the momment, so people beleive it must have some truth. But in reality it is no different from any other religion. | |
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