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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/21/2008 1:01:16 PM | The most disgusting thing about welfare is that America has systematically put a Black face to it when the numbers of those actually on the government teat tent to be more on the White side of the ledger.
If you couple that with a littany of things this country has or hasn't done, you begin to understand why as an earlier poster put it that Blacks don't get that the White cause is the same as theirs.
Generally speaking, Blacks have ALWAYS had an adversarial relationship with this country and just because we've made some progress, it doesn't make that mindset change.
I can't stand the fact that this election, should Obama be the nominee, will be reduced to voting along racial lines because frankly neither Obama, Clinton or McCain has given this voter any satisfactory answers to any of the issues that affect me or my family. No one has given any greatly detailed plan for getting us out of Iraq or bringing gas and food prices under control.
These are issues that concern everyone but because we all have our heads shoved so far up our collective asses, we STILL can't get past Black and White to deal with anything. We won't get past race in this country until we grow a set of balls and honestly discuss it. | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/21/2008 1:12:52 PM | | "Spiritual advisor" my ass... watch the video of the hatemonger, then if you still want one of his disciples leading America, you need some serious spiritual advice and a brain transplant. | |
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NERO1
| Joined: 3/8/2008 Msg: 628 | |
| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/21/2008 1:32:36 PM | QUOTE: we STILL can't get past Black and White to deal with anything. We won't get past race in this country until we grow a set of balls and honestly discuss it.
^^ No, actually we may literally NEVER get past black and white in this country. I don't mean to sound negative, but I'm serious. There are occasional issues with other races or ethnicities as well, granted, but those are more like minor blips on the radar by comparison with the black / white chasm that exists -- in this country in particular. Granted, you've got the immigration crisis thing for instance (but that's not usually so much a real "anti-Mexican" thing as it is an anti-illegal immigration issue, basically). Even though black and white relations have gotten better with time, the problems are clearly far from "gone". And, as a lot of the run-up to this election has shown, I think it may never go away. Even if this country is eventually run (for at least 4 yrs) by a biracial man (even if he seems to self-identify clearly as black), it still won't make a difference. If anything it will only probably inflame that so-called "angry white man" sentiment, that they are actually the ones being discriminated against, while a guy like Obama has gotten where he's gotten "because he's black", and they're still ....bar owners (like that schmuck with the curious george t-shirts) or what have you, because they're white males. | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/21/2008 2:46:49 PM | Jedi Girl, you aren't old enough to remember, but there was a classic line by Robert Young in a TV show many years ago. He told some jerk that he wouldn't trade insults with him, because it would be like dueling with an unarmed man. Well take it easy on these poor guys with the foot-in-mouth disease... they are basically unarmed.
I visualize poor Montreal Guy scurrying to dig up more cut and paste crap every time somebody tries to pull at least some of the wool off of his eyes. | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/21/2008 6:54:13 PM | Ding dong Mr Wright is dead. La la la Mr. Wright is dead. Ding dong the wicked Mr. Wrong is dead.  | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/21/2008 11:28:36 PM | xNEROx,
Are you a sociologist? I only ask because in reading your posts, it is very obvious that you "get it" and I know that those well-learned in that field typically have the opportunity to see the world's social problems and ills from superior and more insightful vantages than most Americans - Black or White.
It has been my experience that those who complain most vociferously about the caliber and character of those inhabiting the "east" side of the river, have never lived a day away from the "west," usually have little or grossly deficient comprehension of life on the east, and form an array of pre-judged conclusions based on faulty premises.
You are truly an invaluable knowledge asset to those who are open-minded enough to consider that they might hold some beliefs in error. America needs more of you guys; and you guys deserve a more broad and receptive audience. We would be a much improved nation for it. 
By the way ... back at your Msg 625, you neglected to also include a mention of how commonplace it was that when Blacks were able to save, amass wealth, and acquire property and other assets like immigrants did after them, that those assets were taken away by trickery or force, and with governmental complicity. Indeed, Black America's relationship with America is -- and always has been -- very different than that of any other emigrant group. As such, the perhaps innocuous and well-intended efforts of the descendants of other ethic emigrants -- at comprehending the chronic social crises of Black America by comparing the experiences of their forefathers-- are invalid and far too simplistic to be of any value.
But -- quite clearly -- you are one of the fortunate few here who understand that.
Thanks for being here, Man!  | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/22/2008 7:17:02 AM | So Wright is dead... too bad, it would have been interesting to have hooked both him and BO to a polygraph and taken bets on which one would blow the pen right off the chart when asked a few pertinent questions.
I couldn't bring myself to vote for any of the "big 3" for reasons that should be obvious to anyone not completely brainwashed, or just brain dead. Some moron on here wrote that not voting for one of them would be "cutting off your nose to spite your face" because one is going to win. Well bye bye nose because I will not vote for the lesser of 3 evils just because one will win. Democrats and Republicans no longer represent the will of the majority of people in this country. My God did I really need to say that, it is plain as the nose on my face.... to all except the aforementioned brain challenged. | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/22/2008 10:58:25 AM | As such, the perhaps innocuous and well-intended efforts of the descendants of other ethic emigrants -- at comprehending the chronic social crises of Black America by comparing the experiences of their forefathers-- are invalid and far too simplistic to be of any value
What another knee jerk, uninformed and condescending statement.
Its value is priceless to me. I am the carrier of the memories of that specific forefather. I plainly remember his last 20 or so years of his life vividly. He was finally able to retire in the early1960s from that job that he was ALLOWED to hold in 1915, working alongside blacks and other various foreign speaking immigrants, all of whom had no chance to advance.
The thing I remember most about him was that he reminded me of a stereotypical elderly black sharecropper in his attitude. This is hard to explain to white people who have not expereinced any sort of this lifelong prejudice and how it affects someones outlook on life, but I will try.
He had a sense of self dignity, but seemed tempered severely, from years of being typecast and pidgeonholed, specifically due to his ethnic background. He had a sense of accomplishment of successfully raising his family and holding a long term job, but that attitude only came forth to those close to him.
In essence, he was a marked man, who looked over his shoulder and knew his boundaries and limitations. He dare not, even in old age, rile his "masters".
In the predomidently white area I grew up in, he was an ostracised peculuarity, due to the fact that he was not Anglo white, looked very different from the locals, and he still barely spoke English and had no formal education. He could not freely converse with the white Anglo population, belong to any of their social organisations, and after all those decades of living in America, still was not accepted. He was from another world, another time, all the time never really able to fully integrate into White America.
Sound familiar?? Sounds like a black sharecropper's story. I listened to his stories, and I could write a book.
I watched this from wence I came of age in the mid 1960s until his death in 1980. It was hard to comprehend, due to the fact that I was fairly well integrated.
With all due respect to my friend and fellow Mediterranean xNEROx, his father came here AFTER this turbulent period. I have befriended Cosenzans in my area who also emigrated in the mid 1960s. It was VERY different for them, so much so that there is virtually no comparision. Due to the difference in attitude(now vs. then), they can integrate easily.
By the time this change finally came, it was too late for my grandfather.
Coincedentally, and as a result of this change, I was no different in the 1970s and beyond as any black man my age was during that time period. I worked alongside black and white men my age in this very same steel mill my grandfather worked and shared the same type of ethnic and racial discrimination my black friends did....the slurs, the attitude, etc.
During this time period, blacks had a newly aquired form of protection in the form of quotas. Jobs were being held open for them, so in essence, I was re-living the same fate as my grandfather, being held to a labour position whilst blacks were hired anew and placed into craft and higher paying production jobs. Once the dust settled, I was locked into this menial job, just the same as my grandfather, while younger blacks held the coveted higher positions.
So, with these great iron curtains of discrimination mostly lifted, young men AND women of any colour had in the 1970s, and have today far far more opportunity than my grandfather, or likewise, a black sharecropper could have ever dreamed of. All you must do is take advantage of it. This is easier now more than ever. | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/22/2008 12:49:10 PM | In the predomidently white area I grew up in ... ...
Sound familiar?? Sounds like a black sharecropper's story ...
Now this may to you (somehow) sound like "another knee jerk, uninformed and condescending statement," but .... "Uhhhhhhh ... No. That sounds nothing LIKE a black sharecropper's story, actually."
During this time period, blacks had a newly aquired form of protection in the form of quotas. Jobs were being held open for them, so in essence, I was re-living the same fate as my grandfather, being held to a labour position whilst blacks were hired anew and placed into craft and higher paying production jobs.
"Protection?" Protection from what, exactly??? And, as the "quotas" advanced by early "Affirmative Action" efforts sought to ameliorate the gross disparities evident in opportunities for Blacks AND Women -- yet failed, in large part, because of lawsuits filed by institutionally-favored White men claiming "reverse discrimination" -- your claim that Blacks were "hired anew" and placed in all these high-paying positions, seems highly-questionable, to say the least. Do you mind sharing what part of the country YOU were in, where you witnessed this avalanche of Blacks holding the "coveted higher positions[?]"
OK. I'm going to take a minute to try to be instructive here; and I hope that I don't sound "knee-jerked," "uninformed" or (most importantly) "condescending." Please forgive me in advance if I impress you as such, for it is truly not my intent. But:
The reality, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, is that it's REALLY about education. Decent schools produce a competitive workforce. America's core problem has always been that it has kept its Black population undereducated by comparison to it's White population. Originally this was done by design; presently, it is probably more of a vestigial consequence of that original design. America's illustrious, storied, and institutionally-entrenched racial discrimination (with all due respect, not likely the same forces your grandfather encountered) served to magnify the adverse impact of that that undereducation had on the Black community at large. Put another way, even most of the relative few who HAD somehow managed to acquire a marketable measure of education, were largely and systematically excluded from the "coveted higher positions" (except for in YOUR town, of course OK, OK. I was trying to be facetious there, not condescending) In fact, a VERY credible argument can be made that affirmative action did WAY more to address discrimination grievances of White WOMEN than it did Blacks of either gender! In fact, a cursory glance -- EVEN TODAY -- at the supervisory, management, and executive ranks of virtually any domestic company of your choosing will evince that the "coveted, [higher-paying]" positions reflect very little African-American representation and are filled overwhelmingly by White men and women!
And that is not to at all slight White women because they, too, were being unfairly discriminated against at the workplace by White men (much less so, at the "schooling" level, but discriminated against nonetheless) and, since that time, they have generally worked hard to achieve the gains they have been given in the workplace. It's just that White, decision-making men have, in general, proven much more receptive to permitting White women to join their ranks than they have Blacks of either gender and, particularly, Black men.
Still ... be that as it may, this entire fractured thread element is really about race relations in this country (rather than a debate on who should get welfare or who has most benefited from Affirmative Action) and, as my esteemed colleague MotownManiax expressed back at Msg 612, how "laughable" criticism of it is. And while I agree with his suggestion that we have come farther along with our integration efforts than have some other nations of the world, I respectfully disagree with the implication that we have come far enough to stop criticizing its present state. For history has shown that only as a consequential response to such criticism, is further progress made.
Despite our perceived differences, however, both he and I line up behind the same presidential candidate -- Barack Obama. And I think that our ability to line up as such is a microcosmic example of Barack's more global theme: That, despite our differences, we have more in common than we have apart, and that these continual, race-based squabbles in which we regularly engage are at worst, "unresolvable" and, at best, "counterproductive" to the goal of addressing the more pressing concerns that plague all of us.
With that said, Hozo, I propose we suspend our debate/dispute indefinitely (or that we do so after your response, if you choose to make one) and frustrate the efforts of those who seek to keep us fighting by pitting us demographically against one another.
Truce?  | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/23/2008 9:54:38 AM | I will gladly share information on the subject I floated.Everything I said is/was true. I lived thru it all. I will try to answer these questions by cutting/pasting your queries in form:
Do you mind sharing what part of the country YOU were in, where you witnessed this avalanche of Blacks holding the "coveted higher positions[?]"
It was Weirton Steel, Weirton, WV. USA I was employed ther from 1976 until it was sold for debt payoff in 2004.
your claim that Blacks were "hired anew" and placed in all these high-paying positions, seems highly-questionable, to say the least.
I suppose that if I am going to make this arguement, I need paperwork to back it up. I actually phoned the former union/employee liasion this morning relating this, looking for documentation of this. He still is alive and working with another local surviving steel union. He informs me there is none, being the company is defunct. The only records would be held by PBGC, or at state and/or federal levels. He has no idea how I could access any info. I related my stories to him and he 100% agrees with all I have said. Do you have any idea?? If so, please let me know, email me privately, I will give you what info I have, so I can make a believer out of you, and also so I can reinforce this arguement in the future.
There is no way someone could make this up. Others who have never been exposed to any of this certainly do not believe. That is my conundrum, and it enrages me even further.
Here are small tidbits to whet your appetite:
Starting in 1983, the parent company sold this steel company. One of the conditions of this sale were that a quota system be put in place because, due to someone's calculations, there was a disparity of percentage between white men, black men, white women and black women.
Keep in mind that I am considered a white man by the company at this point in time!!!
After the recession of the early 1980s, employment fell from 12,000 in the 1970s to around 8,000 in 1984. This is when I was re-hired from being on a nearly 3 year furlough, and this is when they started the minority hiring.
These are union rules. Union rules are colourblind, dealing with senority ONLY. Nobody gets an advantage over anybody for any other reason other than years worked...the playing field is level and fair.
The majority of new hires were black men and women, and white women in order to "catch up" with the the discrepancies of past hiring practises.
Keep in mind that there were already black men/women and white women working , some hired when I was hired, some in the few years after I started, some well BEFORE I started, obviously just not quite enough
By 1986, quotas had been satisfied, but a lawsuit filed on behalf of someone newly hired stated that they were eligible foe "super senority". In other words, those in advanced positions were disproportionately "white male". They only way to break this inequity was to suspend the senority rule and give black men and women "fast track" to these advanced craft and production jobs.
Keep in mind that I am, at this time, still classified as a "white male" and in the bottom 10% of conventional senority, due to my hire date . I am labouring without enough senority yet, but getting close, to bid on craft or production jobs
Starting at a certain predetermined date, ALL new open positions in ALL craft/production jobs were to be filled with any combination of these newly hired..and existing senoir black males/females and white females. They all had the ability to jump over all other employees, regaurdless of senority status or education, and fill these voids. Nobody else was eligible.
The reality, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, is that it's REALLY about education. Decent schools produce a competitive workforce.
This is a steel mill we are talking about. High school diploma required. that is all. Remember:
~ this is West Virginia.
~The population of the whole state is well under 2 million.
~94% white, 4% black 1% other(thats me)
~There were no seperate black schools. Due to sparse population, all county schoools were consolidated. We ALL had NO choice of school. ALL blacks, whites, etc. went to the same school(s). The graduation rates were virtually the same across the racial board.
/\/\/\ This may very well be the stark difference between our arguements. You are using well worn popular large and inner city stats in your shaping and influence of this subject. I am from the other side of this coin.....this is new to you. This is another world here...believe me. This region is predominately WHITE. The local black neighbourhoods/areas differed only slightly from those similar heavily ethnic neighbourhoods/areas. I see about as much difference in me vs. a local black as I see in a local white.
Anyhow, these craft and production advanced positions needed specialised training. The company provided all the training. All you needed was that high school diploma and enough senority to lock the job....normally.
Again, union rules kept the playing field level. If someone were hired who had advanced education, he or she could NOT be given priveledge over any other because of said education. He/she had to use the bid/senority process, the same as others.
I laboured with men and women who were pursuing their degrees at local community colleges. Others were pursuing Masters degrees, working labour positions alongside me, due to their insignifigant senority, but enjoying the upscale union wages and benefits. They had the education to perform these advanced jobs, but could not or never be allowed to leapfrog into the positions over me and all others. They mostly were just passing thru .
Very near my work area was a department which dealt with the maintenance and repair of all refrigeration units in the mill. I had befriended some in that dept. and ate lunch there and also used their shower/restroom facilities.
For some reason, out of the 20 or so employees of that dept., there were no blacks or women. A decree was issued and stated that no less than three(3) new hirees into that shop were to be minority.
These job openings were held open until a qualifying minority accepted it. In other words, the dept worked shorthanded and had to force overtime on the others to make manpower needs. This went on for some months.
The first 2 openings were finally taken by existing blacks who were hired well before me and were older than I was, but still, like me, did not have enough conventional senority to land this job. They accepted, took the schooling , and after 2 or more years, were promoted to full qualified position.
Keep in mind that they leapfrogged over all others who, like them, were subject to conventional hiring practises. They wer not discriminated against, as they were hired far before me, processed as any other employee was in the 1970s and used their senority to pick and choose which job they were able to aquire. I am, still classified as a "white male" and in the bottom 10% of conventional senority, due to my hire date . I am labouring without enough senority yet, but getting close, to bid on these type of craft or production jobs
The 3rd job took several years to fill. In 1986, a newly hired black women was, in essence strong armed into accepting this position. She really did not want this type of work, but the powers saw her as a 2 for 1(black and female).
She was newly hired and still on the 90 day probationary period, as any other empolyee was. She was given notice that she could sign this bid, and as soon as she had her 90 days worked, she could become a refrigeration apprentice.
On her 91st day, this happened.
Keep in mind that I now had nearly 10 YEARS senority. I am still labouring , waiting to bid of a craft job. My window of opportunity is here.....but is being blocked by this practise
This practise went on for several years company wide. We are talking hundreds, perhaps thousands of openings in a company whose employment was steadily dropping due to economic factors. These jobs were on a platter for the taking for blacks and women, but they did not want many of these jobs.
Blacks would come and go freely on these positions. they would work a while, go thru the schooling, become disillusioned, and move to another job....so the position had to start anew and wait for another black to accept. No one else was eligible.
It was not their"cup of tea" so to speak. I do not blame them one bit for that...many of those jobs were not my cup of tea either. This is a steel mill. It sucks.
But nevertheless, I could not take ANY of these vacant positions. By the early 1990s, enough blacks were either hired, or accepted these positions and the agreement was fulfilled and retired. It was back to conventional senority rule from then on..
Keep in mind that I now had nearly 15 YEARS senority....BUT I am still labouring , waiting to bid of a craft job. My window of opportunity has passed, because of the steady downturn in the industry. When this practise was started in the early 1980s, there were 8,000 employees. Now we are down to half that number. Layoffs and downsizing are the rule of the day. New craft and production bids do not exist.
Employees are holding fast and treading water at best. All of the fasttracked black employees, like their similar white senior counterparts, are enjoying their advanced jobs, making double the wage I am and also nicely padding their retirement, and have the added protection of craft status, that is, due to the education required by their positions, that can NOT be reduced to a labour position....they MUST be placed somewhere else where their company-paid education will benefit.
In fact, a VERY credible argument can be made that affirmative action did WAY more to address discrimination grievances of White WOMEN than it did Blacks of either gender! In fact, a cursory glance -- EVEN TODAY -- at the supervisory, management, and executive ranks of virtually any domestic company of your choosing will evince that the "coveted, [higher-paying]" positions reflect very little African-American representation and are filled overwhelmingly by White men and women!
I fully agree, as you can see if you have been following my story. The problem that I have is, addressing discrimination grievances seemed to only work at the expense of people like me.
I did not discriminate against anyone, but was penalised for it. How can you not see that?
I was still doing the same job I started here doing...labour. There were still blacks and women working with me....having taken advantage of all these special offers, deciding it wasnt for them, and ending up right back where they started....labouring with me.
This went on until early 2004 when the company finally shut down. The only difference for me was that my boss and HR director were both black and the area manager was a female. I was still doing the same job 27 years later....just like my grandfather. | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/25/2008 11:48:39 PM | Hozo, I have compassion for your unfair experience in the steel mill. It is truly regrettable that you, personally, were prevented from career advancement in order for the mill/union to correct past wrongs against minorities. Your own experience, however, is not the same as your grandfather's, since, as you said above, you were classed as a "white man" for promotion considerations; unfortunate for you at that time in history, but nonetheless a different issue from your grandfather's.
My friend Ray Henderson and filmmaker Tony Buba made a highly regarded documentary about blacks in the Pittsburgh area steel industry. Ray worked in the mills and collected the stories of his fellow black mill workers, the old-timers who were there before him. This is an excerpt from the film's website regarding historical background:
http://www.braddockfilms.com/films/studyguide/african.shtml
African-Americans in the Steel Mills
Before the Civil War, more than 2,000 slaves worked in the iron mill of the South, creating a skilled work force that the Northern iron companies were quick to exploit after the war. When a labor dispute shut down the industry in Pittsburgh in 1875, African-American workers were brought in to break it, setting a pattern that would continue for decades. Strike breakers were resented by whites for working for lower wages and, at that time, unions were not willing to accept minorities. In 1890, a union local in Pittsburgh ordered 400 of its 500 workers of their jobs to protest African-American employees. Scene from 'Struggles in Steel'
African-American workers were flocking to the North not so much as strike breakers, but in order to escape natural disasters (the boll weevil scourge of 1914, the floods of 1916), racial oppression and the repressive class system of the south. Like the Eastern European immigrants who also were moving into the mills at this time, African-Americans shared one dream - the chance for equal opportunity.
African-American mill workers reached record numbers during World War I, and by the 1930's, white unionists depended on African-American participation in the CIO (Congress of Industrial Organizations) to ensure the success of the Steelworkers Organizing Committee. But union membership did not insure equality for African-American workers. Discriminatory work practices sanctioned by the union, including department seniority rules kept these workers in hazardous, low-paying "Negro Jobs," for decades, continuing uninterrupted through the years of civil rights activism in the 1960s. As one veteran steelworker in the film recounts:
“A white man would come in and you had to train him. In two weeks - he was your boss.”
Through the years of partial gains and tremendous losses, African-American activists came to trust the government far more than the steel companies. Following a series of lawsuits based on Civil Rights legislation, a consent decree was brokered in 1974 by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), the United States Department of Justice, nine steel companies and the United Steelworkers of America.
The decree established goals and timetables for the hiring and promotion of minorities, specifically African-Americans, women, and Hispanics; particularly in supervisory, technical, and clerical jobs and management training programs. The decree eliminated department seniority and replaced it with plant-wide seniority as the basis for promotions, demotions, and recalls in the industry.
This moral victory, however, did not translate into lasting employment gains for African-American steelworkers. By the 1980's, the industry decline had decimated most steel jobs, important gains attained by more than a century of steel employees and a new African-American labor movement fell by the wayside, as both blacks and whites stepped together onto the unemployment line.
I have to agree with Vyper, Barack Obama is our best hope for our country to move past divisions. All working people will fare better with Obama as the next president.
This is from Barack Obama's March 18, 2008 speech on race:
...Most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience - as far as they're concerned, no one's handed them anything, they've built it from scratch. They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.
Like the anger within the black community, these resentments aren't always expressed in polite company. But they have helped shape the political landscape for at least a generation. Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan Coalition. Politicians routinely exploited fears of crime for their own electoral ends. Talk show hosts and conservative commentators built entire careers unmasking bogus claims of racism while dismissing legitimate discussions of racial injustice and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse racism.
Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze - a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many. And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns - this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding.
This is where we are right now. It's a racial stalemate we've been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naïve as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy - particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.
But I have asserted a firm conviction - a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people - that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice is we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union. ...
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| Mr.Wright Posted: 5/26/2008 6:04:11 AM | John Hagee, the controversial evangelical leader and endorser of Sen. John McCain, argued in a late 1990s sermon that the Nazis had operated on God's behalf to chase the Jews from Europe and shepherd them to Palestine. According to the Reverend, Adolph Hitler was a "hunter," sent by God, who was tasked with expediting God's will of having the Jews re-establish a state of Israel.
Going in and out of biblical verse, Hagee preached: "'And they the hunters should hunt them,' that will be the Jews. 'From every mountain and from every hill and from out of the holes of the rocks.' If that doesn't describe what Hitler did in the holocaust you can't see that."
He goes on: "Theodore Herzl is the father of Zionism. He was a Jew who at the turn of the 19th century said, this land is our land, God wants us to live there. So he went to the Jews of Europe and said 'I want you to come and join me in the land of Israel.' So few went that Hertzel went into depression. Those who came founded Israel; those who did not went through the hell of the holocaust.
"Then god sent a hunter. A hunter is someone with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter. And the Bible says -- Jeremiah writing -- 'They shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and from the holes of the rocks,' meaning there's no place to hide. And that might be offensive to some people but don't let your heart be offended. I didn't write it, Jeremiah wrote it. It was the truth and it is the truth. How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen. Why did it happen? Because God said my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel." As a christian first and an African-American man second I don't agree with Rev. Wrights arrogant Shennigans. Or the use of God's name in vein. As far as his issues regarding Palestine and American foreign policy...ie..Americans being ignorant of what we do abroad and not understanding other nations retaliations until it's tragic,"chickens coming home to roost"...believe it or not most African-Americans think that some of America's policies toward some foreign nations are wack policies. No different than other groups in America. On issues of race, yes some blacks are still bitter, very bitter. But hell we've never been so bitter that we've formed terror organizations or wanted mass murders because of it. We more than most people believe in what democracy truley stands for. living through a country and staying in it while being slaves, 3/5ths a man, lynchings and burnings through servantry, Jim Crowism, Civil Rights issues....which history books have made to seem sooo long ago...yeah I think we believe in democracy and this country. Fighting in every war that we were,"allowed to" fight in for this country. My 96 year old grandfather was sharecropper in the south and was raised very much in fear of whites his grand father was a slave....so people i'm still talking to people with links, for those who say that was so long ago and get over it. Hell my last name like many African-Americans in this country is a constant reminder of rape, property ownership and pure racial injustice that is evident when I look at my extremely light skinned mom or wife. So please believe me when I say I understand Jeramiah Wright but I just don't subscribe to all of his thinking. We have to have an honest dialouge on race if we're gonna have one at all. | |
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| Mr.Wright Posted: 5/26/2008 6:38:47 AM | I started a on the issue of religion and politics. The only reason religion is being used in this election and any other, is not because we are such a religious people but guilt and startegy. If we were so religous Huckabee would still be in the running.  | |
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| Mr.Wright Posted: 5/26/2008 7:01:37 AM | Personally I liked Huchabee he just didn't win me over with his fair tax plan. I believe the religious right and Independents felt pretty burnt by George bushs Presidency and didn't soley want to allign themselves with candidates for religious purposes. Remember they came to the forefront because of Bill Clintons indescressions in the white house that caused the republicans to run on the morality platform. I think issues like the economy, foreign policy and immigration will take the lead in the general election if John McCain doesn't try to make it about race. John McCain used to have my respect until he changed his view in S.C. on the confederate flag. Then like Hillary he let me know that he was desperate for a Presidency and would be willing to do anything for it. I personally wanted Joe Biden but I will gladly take Obama. | |
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| Mr.Wright Posted: 5/26/2008 7:14:55 AM | You are correct Fridayboo. Look at what happen when people voted based on religion. I personally favored Edwards, but I can support Obama. I think McCain did not remember 'why' people voted republican and was depending on that base. | |
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| Mr.Wright Posted: 5/26/2008 7:46:04 AM | | Huckabee and Romney got out of the Republican Primary for the GOOD of the party....why can't Hillary? Huckabee and Romney weren't waiting around for a McCain gaffe.....their out stumping for him along with Gulliani.....Her motives are suspect......who should Obama pick for VP? | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/26/2008 7:47:58 PM | Your own experience, however, is not the same as your grandfather's, since, as you said above, you were classed as a "white man" for promotion considerations; unfortunate for you at that time in history, but nonetheless a different issue from your grandfather's.
I agree, using the ever popular highly selective and exclusionary definitions of what is an opressed minority and what is not. The end results were strikingly similar though, no? Our journies ended at the same repressive destination almost 100 years apart.
My friend Ray Henderson and filmmaker Tony Buba made a highly regarded documentary about blacks in the Pittsburgh area steel industry. Ray worked in the mills and collected the stories of his fellow black mill workers, the old-timers who were there before him
Yes!! The very same black old timers whom my grandfather was segregated with and was treated no differently than!
Pushing one's selfish exclusionary agenda to the forefront whilst ignoring another class of victims...how convenient. Obviously, again, neither my grandfather, nor that victimised ethnic subculture, counts.
Through the years of partial gains and tremendous losses, African-American activists came to trust the government far more than the steel companies. Following a series of lawsuits based on Civil Rights legislation, a consent decree was brokered in 1974 by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), the United States Department of Justice, nine steel companies and the United Steelworkers of America.
The decree established goals and timetables for the hiring and promotion of minorities, specifically African-Americans, women, and Hispanics; particularly in supervisory, technical, and clerical jobs and management training programs. The decree eliminated department seniority and replaced it with plant-wide seniority as the basis for promotions, demotions, and recalls in the industry.
Thank you for validating my long winded eye witness account of this sad story in my above post. This is the gist of a practise what some here claim as "highly-questionable, to say the least." . Revisionist history is alive and well and conveniently working wonders for a chosen few and their collective agenda.
My grandparents were treated no differently then any African descendents' grandparents were 100 years ago on this continent. Black Slavery ended in the 19th century. The late 19th century and early 20th century Mediterrenean/Middle Eastern/North African/South American immigrants of my bloodlines, in which Mr Wright and his pitiful black colour-blind crybaby culture so demeans, filled that void nicely, thank you. | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/27/2008 12:26:05 AM |
The decree established goals and timetables for the hiring and promotion of minorities, specifically African-Americans, women, and Hispanics; particularly in supervisory, technical, and clerical jobs and management training programs. The decree eliminated department seniority and replaced it with plant-wide seniority as the basis for promotions, demotions, and recalls in the industry. Thank you for validating my long winded eye witness account of this sad story in my above post. This is the gist of a practise what some here claim as "highly-questionable, to say the least."
And I invite anyone to take a look through the leadership/executive/management ranks of each of those agencies and see how "specifically African-Americans" have been so well served and are presently so well represented.
To help you along with that quick and instructive task:
http://www.eeoc.gov/abouteeoc/commission.html http://www.usdoj.gov/dojorg.htm http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/19.php (click through the links on the left)
Nucor (http://www.nucor.com/indexinner.aspx?finpage=aboutus), and any other steel company you'd choose to illustrate your point of how African-Americans have been enjoying some unfair advantage through Affirmative Action efforts. In fact, we need not even limit the discussion to "steel" companies! Pick companies from the industry of your choice and you will see the same results! Even the NBA! (http://www.nba.com/careers/management_team.html)
The bottom line remains that African-American do not enjoy any competitive employment advantage in this country and any efforts from the government to "create" opportunities for such minorities only exist in an effort to counteract the grossly disparate conditions that would continue to exist in the absence of those efforts. You simply cannot compel others to be fair; they have to possess that sense from within.
History has consistently shown that we humans tend to give preference to hiring others who we identify with; who we see as "one of us." That is why female managers very typically have many females working in their downlines; African-Americans and Latinos frequently have their own working under them; those strongly identifying with the Jewish community typically have many other Jews working underneath them, etc.
The problem is that -- because of the legacy effects of past institutionalized racism and discrimination -- all the best jobs are held by Caucasian-American men! Consequently, the vast majority of those hired into the plum, well-compensated positions in executive, middle, and line management tend to be "other Caucasian-American men!"
Today, because of the gains brought about by the Civil Rights and Feminist Movements, discrimination on the basis of race and gender have become more difficult to maintain. But what this has effectively translated into in practice for America, is that many more Caucasian women have now been welcomed into the management ranks, than had been before those movements, and they have been ascending those ranks with "some" -- albeit not "great" success. African-Americans, however, have STILL been very much excluded from that career party -- even amongst those in the steel industry.
But I again have sadly allowed myself to get distracted by discussions of the "slice and dice" politics of race , while the REAL challenges lie ahead at addressing the pressing issues that affect all of us, without regard to race.
That's where Obama says he is; and I, for one, am very eager to stand there and work with him to that end.
Obama in '08!  | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/27/2008 12:31:48 AM |
Thank you for validating my long winded eye witness account of this sad story in my above post. You're very welcome, as that was my intention, to validate your case - albeit as seen from another perspective. Again, I regret your personal experience. Barack Obama validates your experience, too, as I also posted above.
Hozo, you and I are neighbors in this steel/rust belt. I am familiar with stories like yours and your family's. They are very real for thousands of people in this area. My Polish friend told me why his father anglicized their last name. He had gone for a professional job interview in the forties or fifties, for an accountant position. The interviewer, looking at his Polish name on the resume, asked him if that was a name or a disease. He did not get the job.
My Irish immigrant great-grandfather was killed in the early twentieth century, run over by a train, while doing the grunt work on his railroad yard job. My mother, not Irish, used to take great joy in referring to my dad's family as "Pig sh!t Irish." My dad learned only in the past fifteen years or so that his dad's family was originally from Germany. They settled somewhere in eastern Maryland and changed the spelling of their name from the German to an English spelling that they found on some tombstones in the town cemetery because they feared anti-German prejudice of their time - before 1800.
Black Slavery ended in the 19th century.
The undeniable difference between our cases and that of the African slaves' decendants is that, duh, WE are ABLE to assimilate in a generation or two, while they can't. They can't pretend that they're from the northern European gene pool very well with their tell-tale complexion, can they?
I remember in the late 60s or early 70s when I first heard James Brown sing, "Say it loud! I'm black and I'm proud!" I was offended. Now that I'm a few decades more mature, I really admire the man for having the guts to sing it. And I learned later that Malcolm X talked about how living in the white man's world taught black people to hate themselves for the way they look, based on the dominant race's appearance and opinions. I remember in my high school overhearing some black classmates joking about a very dark-skinned friend of theirs: "What's black and white, black and white, black and white?" The answer was "Junior standing behind a venetian blind! He's soooooooooo dark!" It was the first time I'd heard such an "in" joke. In the post above the guy made reference to his light-complected mother and wife; probably a result of de mastah having his way with some ancestor in their past.
Pushing one's selfish exclusionary agenda to the forefront whilst ignoring another class of victims...how convenient. Obviously, again, neither my grandfather, nor that victimised ethnic subculture, counts. After the Civil War Frederick Douglass and feminists Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony and friends had a falling out, too, when suffrage could not be won for both women and former slaves at the same time. Previously they had struggled together.
We can all find reasons to be bitter about our own group's mistreatment and to continue hating one another. Or we can try to move forward with this American history and improve on the wrongs of the past.
Sheesh! Not to mention addressing the very real problems of right now!
As for Rev. Wright, I don't condone all the crap he has to say. Neither does Barack Obama. The man DID serve this country for six years in the Marine Corps, however, and has many admirers/defenders in the community of white theologians and ministers. The Republican agenda will continue to keep stirring up the worst of the 'Wright factor' until November. They WILL try to keep us divided and keep us down so they can keep taking good care of their rich friends. And again nothing will have a chance to change.
And now-pathetic Hillary is only helping them! | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/27/2008 12:56:19 AM |
As for Rev. Wright, I don't condone all the crap he has to say. Neither does Barack Obama. The man DID serve this country for six years in the Marine Corps, however, and has many admirers/defenders in the community of white theologians and ministers. The Republican agenda will continue to keep stirring up the worst of the 'Wright factor' until November. They WILL try to keep us divided and keep us down so they can keep taking good care of their rich friends. And again nothing will have a chance to change.
And now-pathetic Hillary is only helping them!
And there it all is in a succinct little nutshell.
Wherefore said it so well, I've gotta post it again:
As for Rev. Wright, I don't condone all the crap he has to say. Neither does Barack Obama. The man DID serve this country for six years in the Marine Corps, however, and has many admirers/defenders in the community of white theologians and ministers. The Republican agenda will continue to keep stirring up the worst of the 'Wright factor' until November. They WILL try to keep us divided and keep us down so they can keep taking good care of their rich friends. And again nothing will have a chance to change.
And now-pathetic Hillary is only helping them! | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/27/2008 1:02:32 AM | Mountains, molehills. TWO ministers that McCain sought support from have now made nasty comments about catholics and Jews, but lets all say it together.
IOKIYAR:
It's OK If You're a Republican | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/27/2008 5:09:32 AM | | Really, you really believe those are on par with each other? a close personal and spiritual relationship lasting 20+ years and seeking the endorsement of 2 guys you barely know to help with the voter base where you need help......Yeah thats exactly the same...he has also rejected the endorsements, so I guess this is about the same as Obama and Farrakhan eh? | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/27/2008 5:31:28 AM | And I invite anyone to take a look through the leadership/executive/management ranks of each of those agencies and see how "specifically African-Americans" have been so well served and are presently so well represented.
They seem to quite nicely be represented far better than those of my multi-ethnic minority subculture. As usual, this topic is conveniently steered right back to the binary black/white issue. THAT issue does not exist for me or my kind.
The bottom line remains that African-American do not enjoy any competitive employment advantage in this country and any efforts from the government to "create" opportunities for such minorities only exist in an effort to counteract the grossly disparate conditions that would continue to exist in the absence of those efforts. You simply cannot compel others to be fair; they have to possess that sense from within.
Anfd neither do I, especially after the failed social experiment called "affirmative action". This validates my eternal complaint: all of the effort expended during this period of preferred advancements, placements, and subsequent trampling of anothers' opportunities, and nothing was gained, you are stressing. I want my proverbial money back.
The undeniable difference between our cases and that of the African slaves' decendants is that, duh, WE are ABLE to assimilate in a generation or two, while they can't. They can't pretend that they're from the northern European gene pool very well with their tell-tale complexion, can they?
Well, I have been called s a n d n i g g e r enough times in my lifetime and been treated differently to know that I cannot pretend to be from the northern European gene pool , either.
The collective local Mr. Hillbilly White Cracker was white, and he made sure to remind me time and again that I was not.
Blacks, on the other hand, ignorantly and automatically labeled me as white. You know, the stupidly familiar hot-button binary black/white issue. Nothing else exists in their world.
I honestly do not know which side despised me more.
I assimilated at the same rate regionally as any young black man my age was able to, that is, to have the same basic tools and opportunity and freedom to make a lifechoice. Random discrimination, namecalling, and occasional isolation were part of my life, much the same as any black I have had the pleasure to aquaint in my adult life.
That is, until the early 1980s. Then the "rules"changed. The rest is history. | |
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NERO1
| Joined: 3/8/2008 Msg: 649 | |
| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/27/2008 8:00:45 AM | QUOTE: Well, I have been called s a n d n i g g e r enough times in my lifetime and been treated differently to know that I cannot pretend to be from the northern European gene pool , either.
The collective local Mr. Hillbilly White Cracker was white, and he made sure to remind me time and again that I was not.
^^^ Ciao Hozo.....some of this is just regional American. Due to where your people settled. You likely wouldn't have experienced that if you'd grown up in Chicago or NYC or Jersey. My dad and his family came straight to Chicago due to the fact that their "sponsors" were up here. About the worst of it they ever got was crooked Irish Chicago cops calling them ethnic slurs when they were kids, but big deal.
One of my uncles had to stay in Argentina due to the US "quota" on Italians being filled at the time , but he ended up just settling down there because of the cultural and linguistic similarities, and so on. His family (my cousins, etc) are still there today.
Anyway, it was known back in Italy, even in the 50's and early 60's, to potential emigrants who wanted to come here, that Italians were not integrating as well in the deep south as opposed to the big cities up north, so a lot of the potential emigrants were catching on that they'd do better in the northern part of America and particularly in the bigger city areas (NYC, Jersey, Philly, Chicago, etc) where there were already bigger communities of them, etc. Same as any other immigrant group basically. How, if I may ask, did yours wind up in a place like W.Virginia?? Isn't that mostly real old American (usually Scots-Irish) primarily? There's bound to be a pretty good culture clash there, understandably. | |
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| Mr.Wright (Move On) Posted: 5/27/2008 10:33:51 AM | Again, getting back to Wright, I can try and place myself in his shoes for a moment.
I was asked in another thread what I thought about his AIDS comment. Now, putting myself in his shoes for a moment, trying to perhaps grasp the forces that molded him ( and those forces do mold us, one way or the other) , I can perhaps begin to understand him.
If you grew up in a time where things like the Tuskegee syphilis experiment was uncovered, maybe that might warp your view of reality - and cause you to question it.
If you grew up in a time where the FBI tried to get MLK to commit suicide by blackmailing him, maybe that would make you question too.
If you grew up in a time where a fourteen year old black kid could simply say ""hey baby" to a white 21 year old female shop owner, and then wind up beaten to a pulp, have his eyes gouged out, get shot through the head, and then have his body tied to a seventy five pound weight and thrown in a river.......maybe you'd be a little warped by that experience.
If you lived in a time where the National Theater of the USA (three blocks from the White House, btw) would refuse entry to blacks (even wounded black WW2 vets, until Spencer Tracey objected and they were let into ONE show) , and which would close it's doors rather than segregate ?
Maybe you'd be bitter.
If you grew up in a time where whites would crowd around as they lynched blacks for various reasons, with white ministers, police officers, and even small kids present - and then take pictures and make postcards that were openly sent thorough the mail to other whites as a souvenir ?
Warning : strong content advisory:
http://www.withoutsanctuary.org/
That's over now, it's faded into the mists of the past. That's no longer our world, anymore. We've progressed.
And thank God , for that.
But for someone that lived through it, that last generation that was directly a witness to it ?
I refuse to pick up that first stone and cast it, because God knows I'd probably still feel the rage and bitterness inside of me that such a world could have ever been allowed to ever exist as openly as it WAS allowed to exist - and how it was considered normal, and how hard it was to overcome, and how many people died fighting those injustices in the Sixties. | |
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