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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 1:15:41 PM |
So even though Barack has stated himself many times he is not Muslim, you're taking Youtube's word for it? LMAO
No, Violet. I'm not taking Utubes word for it. Again, Violet. Here you are.
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5286
Was Barack Obama a Muslim?
by Daniel Pipes
FrontPageMagazine.com
December 24, 2007
"If I were a Muslim I would let you know," Barack Obama has said, and I believe him. In fact, he is a practicing Christian, a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ. He is not now a Muslim.
But was he ever a Muslim or seen by others as a Muslim? More precisely, might Muslims consider him a murtadd (apostate), that is, a Muslim who converted to another religion and, therefore, someone whose blood may be shed?
Barack Obama at the Smoky Row Coffee Shop in Oskaloosa, Iowa.
The candidate for president of the United States has delivered two principal statements in reply. His campaign website carries a statement dated Nov. 12 with the headline, "Barack Obama Is Not and Has Never Been a Muslim," followed by: "Obama never prayed in a mosque. He has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian." Then, on Dec. 22, in the unlikely setting of the Smoky Row Coffee Shop in Oskaloosa, Iowa, as he munched on pumpkin pie and drank tea with four locals, Obama provided more detail took on this topic than before. When asked to explain his Muslim heritage, he replied:
My father was from Kenya, and a lot of people in his village were Muslim. He didn't practice Islam. Truth is he wasn't very religious. He met my mother. My mother was a Christian from Kansas, and they married and then divorced. I was raised by my mother. So, I've always been a Christian. The only connection I've had to Islam is that my grandfather on my father's side came from that country. But I've never practiced Islam. … For a while, I lived in Indonesia because my mother was teaching there. And that's a Muslim country. And I went to school. But I didn't practice. But what I do think it does is it gives me insight into how these folks think, and part of how I think we can create a better relationship with the Middle East and that would help make us safer is if we can understand how they think about issues.
These statements raise two questions: What is Obama's true connection to Islam and what implications might this have for an Obama presidency?
Was Obama Ever a Muslim?
"I've always been a Christian," said Obama, focusing on his own personal lack of practice of Islam as a child to deny any connection to Islam. But Muslims do not see practice as key. For them, that he was born to a line of Muslim males makes him born a Muslim. Further, all children born with an Arabic name based on the H-S-N trilateral root (Hussein, Hassan, and others) can be assumed to be Muslim, so they will understand Obama's full name, Barack Hussein Obama, to proclaim him a born Muslim.
More: family and friends considered him as a child to be Muslim. In "Obama Debunks Claim About Islamic School," Nedra Pickler of the Associated Press wrote on January 24, 2007, that Obama's mother, divorced from Obama's father, married a man from Indonesia named Lolo Soetoro, and the family relocated to the country from 1967-71. At first, Obama attended the Catholic school, Fransiskus Assisis, where documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim, the religion of his stepfather. The document required that each student choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when registering – Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant.
Asked about this, Obama communications director Robert Gibbs responded by indicating to Pickler that he wasn't sure why the document had Obama listed as a Muslim. "Senator Obama has never been a Muslim."
Two months later, Paul Watson of the Los Angeles Times (available online in a Baltimore Sun reprint) reported that the Obama campaign had retreated from that absolute statement and instead issued a more nuanced one: "Obama has never been a practicing Muslim." The Times looked into the matter further and learned more about his Indonesian interlude:
His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both schools he attended. That registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion class.
The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. "We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi. … Obama's younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only "for big communal events," not every Friday.
Recalling Obama's time in Indonesia, the Times account contains quotes that Obama "went to the mosque," and that he "was Muslim."
Summarized, available evidence suggests Obama was born a Muslim to a non-practicing Muslim father and for some years had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father. At some point, he converted to Christianity. It appears false to state, as Obama does, "I've always been a Christian" and "I've never practiced Islam." The campaign appears to be either ignorant or fabricating when it states that "Obama never prayed in a mosque."
Implications of Obama's Conversion
Obama's conversion to another faith, in short, makes him a murtadd.
That said, the punishment for childhood apostasy is less severe than for the adult version. As Robert Spencer points out, "according to Islamic law an apostate male is not to be put to death if he has not reached puberty (cf. ‘Umdat al-Salik o8.2; Hidayah vol. II p. 246). Some, however, hold that he should be imprisoned until he is of age and then ‘invited' to accept Islam, but officially the death penalty for youthful apostates is ruled out."
On the positive side, were Obama prominently charged with apostasy, that would uniquely raise the issue of a Muslim's right to change religion, taking a topic on the perpetual back-burner and placing it front and center, perhaps to the great future benefit of those Muslims who seek to declare themselves atheists or to convert to another religion.
But would Muslims seeing Obama as a murtadd significantly affect an Obama presidency? The only precedent to judge by is that of Carlos Saúl Menem, the president of Argentina from 1989 to 1999. The son of two Muslim Syrian immigrants and husband of another Syrian-Argentine, Zulema Fátima Yoma, Menem converted to Roman Catholicism. His wife said publicly that Menem left Islam for political reasons—because Argentinean law until 1994 required the president of the country to be a member of the Church. From a Muslim point of view, Menem's conversion is worse than Obama's, having been done as an adult. Nonetheless, Menem was not threatened or otherwise made to pay a price for his change of religion, even during his trips to majority-Muslim countries, Syria in particular.
It is one thing to be president of Argentina in the 1990s, however, and another to be president of the United States in 2009. One must assume that some Islamists would renounce him as a murtadd and would try to execute him. Given the protective bubble surrounding an American president, though, this threat presumably would not make much difference to his carrying out his duties.
More significantly, how would more mainstream Muslims respond to him, would they be angry at what they would consider his apostasy? That reaction is a real possibility, one that could undermine his initiatives toward the Muslim world.
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Jan. 7, 2008 update: For a follow-up to this article, please see "Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam." In it, I reply to a challenge to the above analysis from Media Matters for America. The article also spurred several hundred comments by readers. | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 1:27:26 PM |
But was he ever a Muslim or seen by others as a Muslim? More precisely, might Muslims consider him a murtadd (apostate), that is, a Muslim who converted to another religion and, therefore, someone whose blood may be shed?
I think he'd be a bigger target as President of the United States than as an apostate. | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 1:30:48 PM | VioletSkye:
That is where you are wrong. He said he wasn't there for many of these sermons. Get your facts straight. AND He also said PUBLICLY he doesn't agree with Mr.Wright's views on these sermons. He does share a deep belief in God with the Reverend. Again, get your facts straight. I still haven't seen you reply once to my remarks about McCain, Mrs.Clinton, and all the shady goings on both of them have had, not to mention the morals with which they work by. How's that for deflecting yet again, Southernlass?? Hmm?? You keep that good ol focus on Mr.Barack. He must really scare you.
Nice try. As I said, Obama is lying. It will soon come out that Obama is lying. Obama knows exactly what his church minister is all about. He considers his pastor to be an uncle to his family and knows exactly what kind of sermons this man preaches and what kind of a racist this man is. Obama is already twisting his own words around and backtracking when the media questions him about this. And if he doesn't agree and doesn't support Rev. Wright's views, why did he continue to be advised by Rev Wright? Why did he continue to be a member of Rev Wright's church? It's very obvious why.
As for the other candidates, this thread is not about them.
As for whether or not Barack Obama scares me, I've already stated that yes, he does scare me. I don't trust him and I feel there is something definitely wrong behind the mask he wears. If you weren't so caught up in cheerleader status for the man, perhaps you might be able to see what more and more people around the country are realizing. I'm not sure how you breathe with your head in the sand like that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk3LXvVlsI4 | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 1:50:59 PM | Obama Attempts Damage Control, Fallout Over Pastor’s Sermons Unclear
by FOXNews.com
Saturday, March 15, 2008
Pollster Doug Schoen said it’s unlikely the Wright issue will play big in the primary, but that it poses trouble down the road. “In a Democratic primary this issue has limited viability and utility,” he said. “In a general election, however … I think this could be a real serious problem for Barack Obama.”
Obama tried to put Wright’s sermons in perspective Saturday, saying: “It reminds me that we’ve got a tragic history when it comes to race in this country … But what I continue to believe in is this country wants to move beyond these kinds of divisions.”
In an interview Friday with FOX News, Obama said he personally never had heard the pastor’s controversial comments, though he joined his Trinity United Church of Christ nearly 20 years ago. He said the sermons now sparking controversy didn’t resemble the ones he remembers from Wright, which, Obama said, stuck to messages of faith, values and helping people in the community.
But Obama’s pastor long has been a lightning rod for controversy. For starters, Wright’s relationship with Louis Farrakhan, once described by Obama as a “close” relationship, has been of concern to many in the Jewish community.
And once Wright’s remarks were publicized last year, Obama backed out of plans to have Wright speak at his Feb. 10, 2007, presidential announcement.
Author Larry Elder said he doesn’t buy Obama’s new, firmer denunciation of Wright.
“How can Barack Obama dis-invite him … and now claim he had no idea that Jeremiah Wright made all these incendiary comments? It doesn’t work,” Elder told FOX News.
There’s too many variables on the campaign trail to measure the direct impact on his poll numbers, but pollster Scott Rasmussen pointed out that Saturday’s Rasmussen daily tracking poll showed Obama nearly tied with Hillary Clinton.
“That’s a big drop from Obama’s 8-point lead a day before,” Rasmussen said.
Ari Fleischer, former press secretary for President Bush, suggested that the controversy and the timing of Obama’s disavowal show him to be little more than a shrewd politician.
“I think there’s a reason Republicans I talk to are increasingly looking forward to running against Barack Obama,” Fleischer said.
Wright, who presided over Trinity’s congregation until his retirement earlier this year, officiated Obama’s wedding to Michelle and baptized their two daughters. In Obama’s first book, “Dreams From My Father” from 1995, he writes the pastor had great influence over him in the early 1990s. And it was Wright who delivered a sermon “The Audacity of Hope,” which had such an impact on Obama that he made it the title of his second book, published in 2006. The theme of hope continues to be central to Obama’s surging campaign.
His repudiation of Wright has gradually risen to a crescendo.
Three weeks ago, Obama spoke to the Cleveland Jewish Community Leaders group and was asked about Wright. Obama noted the pastor occasionally was known to “say controversial things,” adding most of those controversial statements were “directed at the African American community.”
Obama assured the Ohio Jewish leaders he never heard anything anti-Semitic, and said “he is like an old uncle who sometimes will say things that I don’t agree with.”
Obama’s camp released a somewhat stronger statement Thursday after FOX News had reported more on Wright’s sermons — in one, he repeatedly said “God damn America,” while in others he blamed the United States for the spread of HIV and the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and highlighted what he saw as a racial divide between Obama and Hillary Clinton.
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/15/fallout-from-pastors-sermons-unknown-as-obama-attempts-damage-control/ | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 2:22:08 PM | I see FOX news and I think blah blah blabbety blah. Why don't you post something out of Time or from the AP which is less biased? Even I can admit to the fact that my main news source leans to the left.
And if Obama is going to have to 'answer to' this on a bigger scale in the general, I think McCain should have to answer to his spiritual cronies too.
And I'd like to know how this:
My father was from Kenya, and a lot of people in his village were Muslim. He didn't practice Islam. Truth is he wasn't very religious. He met my mother. My mother was a Christian from Kansas, and they married and then divorced. I was raised by my mother. So, I've always been a Christian. The only connection I've had to Islam is that my grandfather on my father's side came from that country. But I've never practiced Islam. … For a while, I lived in Indonesia because my mother was teaching there. And that's a Muslim country. And I went to school. But I didn't practice. But what I do think it does is it gives me insight into how these folks think, and part of how I think we can create a better relationship with the Middle East and that would help make us safer is if we can understand how they think about issues. "documents" him as a muslim....because kids he went to school with said so? Because FOX news says so?
As for whether or not Barack Obama scares me, I've already stated that yes, he does scare me. I don't trust him and I feel there is something definitely wrong behind the mask he wears. If you weren't so caught up in cheerleader status for the man, perhaps you might be able to see what more and more people around the country are realizing. I'm not sure how you breathe with your head in the sand like that.
I'm sorry my views lead you to insult them and reduce them to cheerleader status. It's not like I have a crush on the guy. You said you had an illogical fear of him, but you are reading things and learning things that are feeding that fear. Have you ever been to the man's website? Maybe try reading and learning from both sides of it. Also check out his voting record. That's what got my vote over a year ago when I heard whisperings of this junior Senator from Illinois considering running for president.
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 3:01:59 PM | Nice deflection again, Southernlass. And using Fox News as a source?? 
Oh, and this is a political forum, a political thread...so I think the questions about Hillary and McCain are valid.
As for whether or not Barack Obama scares me, I've already stated that yes, he does scare me. I don't trust him and I feel there is something definitely wrong behind the mask he wears. If you weren't so caught up in cheerleader status for the man, perhaps you might be able to see what more and more people around the country are realizing. I'm not sure how you breathe with your head in the sand like that.
As opposed to where your head is? It must be hard to breathe up there. | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 3:11:13 PM | Actually, Violet, Fox News is the only news source right now that isn't biased in Obama's favor. CNN and the others that I used to watch have become so incredibly biased that I can't even get the truth about anything anymore. I now have to watch a Republican broadcast in order to get the freaking truth. At least when I watch Fox, I now know I'll get the unvarnished facts about what's going on with Obama. They don't have a vested interest in feeding me crap regarding him like the mainstream media does. Their broadcasting right now is the most unbiased out there.
Saturday Night Live pointed out the obvious media bias toward Obama and the mainstream media cleaned up their act for a little bit but they attempted to bury this story about Obama's pastor until they had no choice but to cover it because FOX forced their hand. | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 3:17:59 PM |
And I'd like to know how this "documents" him as a muslim....because kids he went to school with said so? Because FOX news says so?
Again, are you not reading what I'm citing? I can keep putting the links up here but if you're not going to put on your reading glasses and read the article and look at who wrote it, I just can't help you, Simmah. I did not cite Fox news in regard to the Muslim issue.
Daniel Pipes wrote the article and a follow up to it which researched and documented answers to the "Muslim question."
Was Barack Obama a Muslim? - article by Daniel Pipes
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5286
Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam - article by Daniel Pipes
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5354 | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 3:27:34 PM | Ok...here's an example
No matter how often you say YOU'RE not biased, you don't see anything beyond his skin color or what YOU perceive to be his heritage. Even though HE says he's not. HIM. Not someone who doesn't know him personally.
His religion matters not to me, or many others. What you keep perpetuating is a fear amd hate of someone else's SUPPOSED faith (even though it's not his). SO, I'll put to you like you keep putting it to me.
YOU can write as many times as you like, in your own words that you're not racially or religiously biased (to put it nicely so I don't rile your delicate sensibilities), and I and many others will keep thinking you are. Just like you keep doing with whatever words Mr.Barack, he himself, keeps stating. See how it works? | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 4:25:42 PM | | Please, southernlass.....don't presume you are helping me do anything or that I am looking to you for help. I don't know who Daniel Pipes is, but I'm guessing it's from a right slanting website. I could post from truthout.org....and I find that to be a very informative and reliable website, but it's got a huge left slant...and this thread is not really the place for it. If you're going to cite, cite something unbiased. I do not care what you say, FOX news is THE FARTHEST thing from unbiased you can possibly get. It just happens to be what you're looking for, so you listen. I know I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine. But I wish you would not spread this Mulsim crap around about Obama when it clearly isn't true. And I'm sorry, but your article referencing people who knew him as a child 'playing in a mosque' did not convince me. | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 6:10:52 PM | Simmah and Violet, I don't expect to convince either of you. And in case you didn't get it, I'm not trying to convince either of you of anything. You will not be convinced. Frankly, Barack Obama could murder someone tonight and you two would defend his intent and motivation for the murder and still vote for him. lol.
I'm not the least bit deluded about Obama's cheer squad and his almost hypnotic effect upon them. It's the individual readers who still have the ability to be objective, who are undecided, who are capable of understanding what I'm attempting to communicate. They will think about it, do some research on their own and make up their own minds.
Believe it or not, Obama hasn't been able to impact everyone as he has the two of you and a few others that repeatedly sing his praises. There are people reading that will vote, who are going to actually look at what's best for the nation, who look at all sides, who aren't going to scream "racist" because I raise an issue that also concerns a lot of other people who aren't under Obama's spell. | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 6:23:33 PM | Oh yes, you're right, I'm hypnotized. I did not read one thing regarding Mr. Obama, I just am doing what everyone else thinks and tells me to do. Give us a little credit here. I take offense to you saying that I have 'cheerleader mentality'. I have posted numerous times that I think you should check out other websites, yet you have not once said yes I actually did check that out, and I still disagree. As I stated in my last post, I checked out his voting record over a year ago and that was enough for me to start learning more. When I got the email that said he was a Muslim, I checked that out too. I have watched CNN and even FOX news. I have checked out snopes.com and his own website. I feel I am fully informed and not just a lemming. I wonder how many people so against him can say the same. And I have done this for all of the candidates.
What I don't like is the mob mentality and people jumping on the witch hunt bandwagon regarding Rev. Wright and several other things. And if you are not fully informed, I don't feel you should go around spreading your 'wisdom'. | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 6:36:06 PM | That would mean she would actually have to have an open mind and actually be open to other views and the truth, of which she has yet to post about, Sim.
I too checked his background, his voting history, all the good works he's done while in office and in the government, as well as doing all I can to learn about his life.
But no matter what you say, she will have some other snippet to c/p to refute what has come directly from Mr.Obama. And, she has yet to ever directly answer a question with regards to allegations several have spoke about with regards to Mr.McCain and Mrs.Clinton. It always comes back to Mr.Obama.
Good luck getting anything else. | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/16/2008 7:32:33 PM | I read the website too and found this:
<div class="quote">In sum: Obama was an irregularly practicing Muslim who rarely or occasionally prayed with his step-father in a mosque. This precisely substantiates my statement that he "for some years had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father."
Is it just me, or does the first part of the statement seem to contradict the second part? I know I wouldn't define going to the mosque 'rarely' as a 'reasonable Muslim upbringing'. I'm not sure, and I know religions differ on this, but in my experience you're expected to go more often than rarely or occasionally.
I wouldn't be surprised if Obama has a skeleton or two in the closet somewhere, everyone does I think, but this? Not likely. It seems like a lot of people are just trying to find anything they can about him that may be even remotely borderline to discredit him. Sounds a lot like acts of desperation to me. Maybe Hillary (or her staff at least) is very afraid that she is going to lose?
And before you start yelling at me for being a cheerleader, I'm not really in favor of any candidate right now. I mostly picked my side as playing devil's advocate at first, and pretty much stuck with it. From the little I do know (which is very little, I'll admit that, but first impressions can mean a lot) I think that Obama seems to be a very decent and intelligent person who would do a good job as president. I know before November I need to look up a lot more about everything, and about the issues I care about (guess what, they aren't abortion and the death penalty, those are useless issues), but I don't see a point in doing that until the parties decide who is going to actually run.
The other funny thing - the school put Muslim as his religion since that was his father's religion, but what if his mother had been Jewish? If I remember right, Judaism tracks religion through the mother's side, not the fathers. So would we be arguing over this if his mother had been Jewish but his father Christian and he had picked Christianity? Or is it only because we have been have foreign relations issues with countries that have large populations of Muslims? | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/17/2008 12:52:30 AM |
For them, that he was born to a line of Muslim males makes him born a Muslim.
For them....sooooo what?????
can be assumed to be Muslim...
ASSUMED....oh I get it now....what's the definition of ASS-U-ME again?
...where documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim
HE enrolled? He filled out the forums himself? Enrolled himself of his own choosing? As a child?
....family attended the mosque only "for big communal events...."
Ummm....like an Ice Cream Social?
"I've never practiced Islam."
Just because one is taught things, or walked through the door of a religious building....
....does not make one a "practiceer".
The campaign appears to be either ignorant or fabricating when it states that "Obama never prayed in a mosque."
Yet just a few lines above is the statement....
But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi.
They played together...
...gawd....I just love it when someone is so desperate that they feel they must switch one letter in a word in order to further their agenda
The rest of the quoted piece just screams of.....
"....full of sound and fury, signifying nothing...."
Daniel Pipes?....eh....lets have a look shall we?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pipes
http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2003/05/we_420_01.html
http://www.slate.com/id/2086844/
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Daniel_Pipes
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20021125/mcneil
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1316.html
Well, it took a while, but here's one that completely and utterly destroys the article Southernlass has provided.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200801020004
I'm beginning to think your "illogical fear" is illogically based, yet you continue to purpote it.....based on what?....his "mask" ?(your term).
In the world of theatre, the mask is the outer layer that one is judged on, often wrongly.
Politics too...... | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/17/2008 1:20:45 AM |
Well, it took a while, but here's one that completely and utterly destroys the article Southernlass has provided.
Well, I'm impressed that you bothered because it shows that you at least read what I took the time to look for, thoroughly read, and cite. Unfortunately though, check the date on yours and then read this rebuttal to yours below. Again, sorry. Your article does not utterly destroy Mr. Pipes's research in any way shape or form. Nice try, though.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200801020004
Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam
by Daniel Pipes
FrontPageMagazine.com
January 7, 2008
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5354
In a recent analysis, "Was Barack Obama a Muslim?" I surveyed available evidence and found it suggests "Obama was born a Muslim to a non-practicing Muslim father and for some years had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father." In response, David Brock's organization, Media Matters for America (MMfA), which calls itself a "progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media," has criticized one of my sources of information.
MMfA contends in "Daniel Pipes relied on disputed LA Times article to revive Obama-Muslim falsehood," that "key aspects" of a March 16, 2007, Los Angeles Times article I quoted were later challenged by another newspaper account, "History of schooling distorted," by Kim Barker in the Chicago Tribune on March 25.
Falsehood? That's a strong word.
To assess MMfA's claim, let's review its preferred article and examine what Barker has to say on four topics related to Obama's Indonesian years, 1967-71:
His attendance at a Catholic school;
His attendance at a public school;
His step-father, Lolo Soetoro; and
His friend, Zulfan Adi.
To start with, about the Catholic school, Fransiskus Strada Asisia, which Obama attended 1967-70 (words in square brackets are added by me):
Interviews with dozens of former classmates, teachers, neighbors and friends show that Obama was not a regular practicing Muslim when he was in Indonesia, despite being listed as a Muslim on the registration form for the Catholic school, Strada Asisia, where he attended 1st through 3rd grades. At the time, the school most likely registered children based on the religion of their fathers, said [Israella Pareira] Darmawan, Obama's former [1st-grade] teacher. Because Soetoro was a Muslim, Obama was listed as a Muslim, she said.
The enrollment form from the Catholic school, which has been cited as evidence that Obama was a Muslim in Indonesia [including by the Los Angeles Times], also was rife with errors. It listed Obama as an Indonesian, listed his previous school incorrectly and failed to list his mother, Ann, at all.
Barack Obama with his public school classmates in Indonesia.
About Obama's time at a public elementary school, 1970-71, variously known as the Sekolah Dasar Nasional Menteng No. 1 or the Basuki school, Barker writes:
When Obama attended 4th grade in 1971, Muslim children spent two hours a week studying Islam, and Christian children spent those two hours learning about the Christian religion.
During a recent visit to this public school, Barker found that
Weekly religious classes are required for all students, whether Muslims, Christians or Hindus, under the government curriculum. A new shiny mosque is in the corner of the courtyard. "The Muslims learn about Islam, prayer and religious activity," said Hardi Priyono, the vice principal for curriculum. "And for the Christians, during the religious class, they also have a special room teaching Christianity. It's always been like that."
About Obama's step-father, Lolo Soetoro and his religiosity, Barker writes:
In their first neighborhood, Obama occasionally followed his stepfather to the mosque for Friday prayers, a few neighbors said. But Soetoro usually was too busy working, first for the Indonesian army and later for a Western oil company. "Sometimes Lolo went to the mosque to pray, but he rarely socialized with people," said Fermina Katarina Sinaga, Obama's 3rd-grade teacher at the Catholic school, who lived near the family. "Rarely, Barry [a nickname for Barack] went to the mosque with Lolo."
Barker learned from his friends and family that Lolo Soetoro, who died in 1987, was "much more of a free spirit than a devout Muslim" and "hardly the image of a pious Muslim."
His nephew, Sonny Trisulo, 49, said Soetoro always liked women and alcohol. One of his health problems was a failing liver. "He loved drinking, was a smart and warm person, the naughtiest one in the family," Trisulo recalled.
As for Zulfan Adi, cited in the Los Angeles Times piece:
Zulfan Adi, a former neighborhood playmate of Obama's who has been cited in news reports as saying Obama regularly attended Friday prayers with Soetoro, told the Tribune he was not certain about that when pressed about his recollections. He only knew Obama for a few months, during 1970, when his family moved to the neighborhood.
Does any of the above information from the Chicago Tribune article refute my analysis, as MMfA contends? It raises questions about two details in the Los Angeles Times account (the accuracy of the Catholic school's registration form and the reliability of Zulfan Adi as a source on Obama). But on the larger issue of Obama's religious practices during his Jakarta years, it confirms the Times account. Note in particular three excerpts from Barker's article:
"Interviews with dozens of former classmates, teachers, neighbors and friends show that Obama was not a regular practicing Muslim when he was in Indonesia" – implying he was an irregularly practicing Muslim.
"Obama occasionally followed his stepfather to the mosque for Friday prayers, a few neighbors said" – confirming that he did pray in the mosque.
"Obama's 3rd-grade teacher at the Catholic school, who lived near the family [said that] ‘Rarely, Barry went to the mosque with Lolo'" – confirming that Obama attended mosque services.
All this matters, for if Obama once was a Muslim, he is now what Islamic law calls a murtadd (apostate), an ex-Muslim converted to another religion who must be executed. Were he elected president of the United States, this status, clearly, would have large potential implications for his relationship with the Muslim world.
In sum: Obama was an irregularly practicing Muslim who rarely or occasionally prayed with his step-father in a mosque. This precisely substantiates my statement that he "for some years had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father."
Therefore, what MMfA calls the "Obama-Muslim falsehood" is in fact confirmed by both articles as truthful and accurate.
Calling this a falsehood is in itself a falsehood. | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/17/2008 3:35:59 AM | | I checked out Daniel Pipes too. He's a writer who is a columnist for the New York Times, but that's not the entire scope of his work. He's considered an authority on Islam, and his writings are very much on the conservative side politically. And I'm sorry, that article states "rarely" and "irregularly" how many times? People that believe that Obama is a muslim because he attended a mosque once in a while as a child....and that mosque was part of the school he attended....and that he prayed with his step father once in a while....are grasping at straws and holding on for dear life to something that doesn't really jump out at me. Pack those articles up. They mean nothing. There is no evidence that he participated in anything mosque-related past that age, nothing written that states he prayed muslim prayers since then...and it doesn't even say how old he was. He was in what...third grade? Yes, that is scary for sure. | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/17/2008 8:41:54 AM | southernlass, I agreed with most of what Wright said with the exception of the AIDS virus and I am white, does that make me a racist?
This country didn't come to the status it did from 13 colonies by being "nice". We have stolen, committed genocide, lied, cheated, murdered, and made lives miserable for millions of people and millions of times over.... starting with Colombus!
We have very rarely searched our souls and opened up the dark side of America. I don't see anything wrong with doing that because we are doing the same stuff we have always done, now in Iraq.
I applaud Rev. Wright for having the cajones to publically state that.
However, I dont think it has a damned thing to do with Barak Obama. | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/17/2008 8:59:13 AM | The funny thing is how this all suddenly comes to light just as a really important primary is about to occur in Pennsylvania , one that Hillary desperately needs to win - and win big. 
April 22, not far to go....
Bill Clinton: On PA Like A "Wet Blanket": Bill Clinton is staking out in Pennsylvania for the next six weeks:
At President Bill Clinton's second campaign stop today he described his wife as the "best-qualified" candidate and "the strongest leader." He asked for the crowd's support and said-as he did in Texas and Ohio-if they vote for her she will go on to win later primaries and the nomination will be hers:
"If she wins a big, big victory in Pennsylvania, I think it'll give her a real big boost going into the next primaries. We're gonna have primaries in Indiana, North Carolina, West Virginia, Kentucky, Oregon, Montana, South Dakota and Puerto Rico," Clinton said, "But I think just as I felt she had to win in Texas and Ohio -- and she did, and won handily- I think she's got to win a big victory in Pennsylvania. I think if she does, she can be nominated, but it's up to you, and I want to ask you to all vote for her and support her and ask your friends to."...
"I'm going to Erie tonight, and I'm going to wind up in the Philadelphia area tomorrow. And Hillary was over there today; she started in Scranton where her father's family was from, so she was doing a family tour yesterday. But Hillary, Chelsea and I expect to cover Pennsylvania like a wet blanket between now and April 22nd asking for support from people."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/17/pennsylvania-primary-lat_n_87069.html
And suddenly........it's do the Wright thing. | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/17/2008 12:24:36 PM |
southernlass, I agreed with most of what Wright said with the exception of the AIDS virus and I am white, does that make me a racist?
I'm not sure what it makes you, Steven. I wouldn't say it makes you racist. Perhaps it makes you confused, deluded, and another one of the cheer squad under the influence of Barrack Obama.
Here's a clue, Steven. If Barrack should take the nomination, there is absolutely no way on this planet that he'll win the national election. Republicans, Democrats, and those of us who love this country were offended by Wright's words and were offended that a candidate who is running for the most powerful position in the free world sits under this nut's tutelage and has for the last twenty years. You may enjoy hearing this racist bigot say "God D-mn America." You may think it's politically correct and enjoy hearing him rip and shred white Americans. Maybe you actually think this is our payback. You may think this is "cool." Most people who are the least bit patriotic don't though.
Mark my words, Obama has no chance in hell of winning this national election anymore. And the super delegates will know it.
The voters who are conservative, who might have given him the time of day along with their vote aren't going to touch him now after witnessing Wright's fits on national TV. And there are now a lot more Democrats who aren't as interested either. Obama can refute and attempt to distance himself from Rev.Wright all day long if he wants. His actions speak louder than words as he sat day after day as a member of that church, with his pastor as his own spiritual advisor up until the liberal media were forced to break this story. | |
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timj82
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Joined: 11/16/2007
Msg: 71 | |
| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/17/2008 12:30:32 PM | "Bill Clinton: On PA Like A "Wet Blanket" ????????
ewwwwww | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/17/2008 1:43:10 PM |
If Barrack should take the nomination, there is absolutely no way on this planet that he'll win the national election. Republicans, Democrats, and those of us who love this country were offended by Wright's words and were offended that a candidate who is running for the most powerful position in the free world sits under this nut's tutelage and has for the last twenty years.
Sermons, maybe. Not even counting the Sundays he missed, which we don't know how many of them there are. Tutelage? I think not.
You may enjoy hearing this racist bigot say "God D-mn America."
Actually, if you listened to that part of the sermon, he said "they are not saying God bless America, they are saying God Damn America". That is and was taken out of context. I am NOT defending his message, just those few words.
You may think it's politically correct and enjoy hearing him rip and shred white Americans. Maybe you actually think this is our payback. You may think this is "cool." Most people who are the least bit patriotic don't though.
I consider myself extremely patriotic. That's why when I read how often Obama voted for more funding and better equipment for the troops he got my vote.
I don't think it is us that are brainwashed........ | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/17/2008 2:58:23 PM | | Perhaps Mr. Wright should change his name to Mr. Wrong? | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/17/2008 3:06:37 PM | southernlass, I am in my 50's and no fool. I'm not sure why you think you can take some patriotic high road and paint me as some kind of mindless groupie, except it makes you feel better.
I care what Obama does, not those around him. Mr. McCain's pastor would have us make war on 2 billion muslims.........to "destroy Islam" ... and how would that happen? Nuclear bombs on three continents? I think prescribing nuclear war is a far more serious enterprise than someone going off on America..........and telling us that it needs to search its soul, which I agree with.
I am not "patriotic". What I love about America is not what you love, but I don't wave the flag when it comes time to question the murders we have committed. And by the way, you are wrong, most people look at Rev. Wright as a nutjob.......that's about it.
This country was built with blood on its hands. Don't kid yourself by wrapping yourself in the flag.
If McCain is elected, we are going to be in deep, deep shit. THAT man scares me as much as you say Obama scares you. Real simple difference: McCain is going to focus on Iraq, Iran, Afganistan and not take care of business at home and Obama will take the focus off those countries and back onto America where it belongs, to deal with our own issues. That alone is enough to elect Groucho Marx as president. | |
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| Mr.Wright
Posted: 3/17/2008 3:09:59 PM | Mmm hmm, Barbe. I think you're right about that.
And amazingly, while some are actually defending Wright's words, let's all be sure and tune in tomorrow night when Barrack goes on television to give his little too late, damage control speech condemning and denouncing his own spiritual advisor's words. Even Barrack Obama knows his pastor is out of line. Even Barrack Obama knows he has not only shot himself in the foot with this alliance, he has blown his own foot clean off.
And no, I'm not going to cheer about it. It's sad to watch someone actually go down from his own poor judgment. Barrack has done this to himself; there is no conspiracy slur campaign that can be blamed on anyone else on this one. Barrack chose to be close to Rev. Wright and he must have known it would come back to bite him. It just makes no sense that he would utilize such poor judgment. | |
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