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I am so sick of seeing these threads.

There is nothing wrong with being a nice person. Being a nice person does not make someone ineffectual, a wimp, insecure, etc.

It's so stupid.

Yeah, nice guys don't "score". Yeah, they don't get girls. Why? Because they don't play games or misrepresent themselves.

Our society needs more nice guys. Part of the problem with our society is that being male is equated with being abrasive, rude, in it for yourself, and having a lack of compassion and respect for others. Men are afraid to treat women and other people in general well for fear of being booted out of the "dude" club.

Yeah, the jerks do well. They do. Because they're good b*llsh*tters. They go for women that are weak-minded, naive, etc. But they never seem to maintain relationships. They just go through one woman after another. The nice guys don't succeed because they don't want to play a game, which is all that the jerks are doing.


I'm so sick of "nice" being equated with something negative. One can be sensitive and strong at the same time.

I'm not changing who I am. If I end up alone for the rest of my life, then so be it. I'm not succumbing to the frat-boy culture.

There is nothing wrong with opening your heart to a woman. There is nothing wrong with being romantic. There is nothing wrong with being a good, respectful person. Any woman who doesn't want flowers on a first date or be told that she is loved isn't someone worth being with because she obviously doesn't love herself or want to be loved. Either that or she just wants convenience. And of course people in general are so cynical anymore.

In Iwarriors statement, and to all those who give him a : you are completing your own self-fulfilling prophecy by believing your own lies. This is not meant to be an antagonistic post, so hear me out objectively before your rebuttal is posted. Let me explain how you are lying to yourself to justify your own behaviour, and how lying to yourself is common "nice guy/doormat" behaviour, which makes this subject so much more difficult, because the ones it is meant to help are the same ones that can't understand the words because of their own emotional walls connected to being a "nice guy/doormat".

The following is not intended for people who consider themselves nice guys, but possess all or most of the "normal guy/real man" traits. Sit back and think about which one you are. If you are a nice guy that generally is not afraid of people (male or female), or not afraid of being in a big group of people, not afraid to speak in public with all attention on you and things of this nature than you are probably a well rounded, non-doormat nice guy, and this post is not aimed at you. Now, if you occasionally think that people are making fun of you behind your back, and that worries you, or the idea of formal speaking in front of a large group of people scares you, or you don't have as much success with women as most men do, then you may benefit from this post.

"Iwarrior: I read your profile and I hope it's okay that I share parts of it with the audience of this thread to help me underline the ideas I'm trying to convey. First off, your profile is very well written grammatically, congratulations, but I see the "nice guy" shining through in your words. Your profile will be viewed by women as one belonging to a man that is overly apologetic, unsure, approval seeking and "wussy". No woman wants that. These are just my opinions, and I'm only trying to help, but maybe I'm way off base anyway. Either way, let me explain why I believe this to be true:

Your headliner: Hey, hey hey, don't just walk on by.

While this is different and clever, here is what I think the confident, no time wasting, "desirable" girl will see: Hey! Please give me a chance before you ignore me like the rest."

It kinda smells like you've been "walked by" too many times before, you know? So, "desirable" women see this and will take the hint from the previous girls that have "walked by", because "desirable" women don't want to waste your time, or theirs by picking up the baggage of, an under-confident due to over rejected/self-esteem issued, man.

Yes, from a male point of view it is an unfair game that women play, but it is instinctual for them to make such snap decisions. Here's why. Imagine if you were a "desirable" woman. That means you get hit on 10 or more times per day by every kind of guy imaginable, from the aggressive to the rich to the "nice". She has to filter through these personalities quickly to find the ones she is interested in, and if you're not what she is interested in, you'll know it quickly. This is the reason some of you might consider the really hot girls to be "bit*hes". The truth is, she knows exactly what she wants, and won't bother wasting precious time with anything less, and she has every right to do this, since she can just about get any guy she wants."

Your final statement was also something that seemed kind of like you were begging for approval. It was two phrases that read something like: If you will go out with me, you might be known as the girlfriend of a rockstar someday. If I've captured your imagination, drop me a line.

The first sentence is humourous, but the way you worded it sounded more like a bribe done by someone that's running out of game. How about: If I choose to go out with you, you might get to be a rockstars girlfriend someday. You see? Second sentence also sounds like your asking for her to like you, and not the other way around as it should be. Maybe: If you think you can keep up to me and have your imagination captured, then why don't you drop me a line.

Guys that are succesful with women misrepresent themselves less often than a "nice guy/doormat".

Being successful with desirable women does not in any way mean that you are being caniving, or that you are operating smoothly with a hidden agenda.

In fact, it's quite the opposite. Being successful with those types of women usually requires the honesty of a confident man.

It requires being a sexual power that understands that he is trying to convey attraction to a woman through attitude and body language, and has no fear of doing so.

That does not mean that this man simply wants to get in her pants, but only that he is interested in her as much as one can be on a first meeting with a women.

He is interested in beggining the courting process, and if things work beyond that, perhaps more.

This is the early stages of the courtship process from EVERY man's perspective, but tactics vary greatly. The "nice guy/doormat" will shy away from conveying a sexual attraction in it's instinctive form, and instead will resort to things like: buying drinks/gifts, being a "good friend" when you hardly know her, and just tip-toeing around the issue of sexuality and dating.

DESIRABLE women view this type of behaviour as dishonest, and it is.

Women that are desirable do not appreciate this type of behaviour because they understand the true motives behind them,

yet you can't make a move since the thought of doing so paralyzes you with fear. So you see, this type of behaviour is the truly misrepresental one, masked by being a good deed or two with no valid reason, but always wanting more.

The kind of male that has this attitude is not usually one that is successful with women.

Women aren't stupid you know,

they can see right through that chovenistic, brutish, rudeness almost immediately. You are talking about the type of guy that actively seeks out fights so he can beat up on others cause he's bigger or stronger,

and not the type that's just defending his rights or pride in a fight.

You are talking about a wife abuser. You are talking about the type of guy that would violate a woman's privacy by wooing her by getting her drunk, and then secretly broadcasting his conquest of her in the bedroom over the internet with a hidden camera.

I assure you that most men that are like this are not successful with women the way they truly want to be.

The problem is that you have associated men that are honestly successful with women as being of this type as well, which is a stereotype you have to stop believing.

No, no one is suggesting that you change your personality, but trying different methods to attract the women you want does not mean you are changing yourself. This thinking is like refusing to take a defensive driving course on the basis that you don't want to change who you are, despite all the accidents you get into.

That's true, but not before she is attracted to you.

A first date set of flowers depends on how well you know her. If you don't know her that well, than the flowers are to bribe her to have feelings of attraction toward you, which IS sneaky and underhanded.

If you sense that the woman you are trying to woo is not attracted to you, and you try to pull this stuff off, that IS wrong and rude. It's wrong because it is a blackmail tactic. It's like saying, "I really love/like you and I think you should go out with me" before she is attracted to you. When you do this, it is intended as a come on with a tiny bit of guilt attached because they don't feel the same way you do about them. Doing this before you have established the attraction is most certainly wrong, and a typical "nice guy/doormat" type of behaviour.

Saying that you are righteous for behaving this way is your lie to yourself, but it's only because society has taught you to act this way.

I won't go into how society does this, but I could prove it with another long winded essay or two. For now, you'll just have to believe me.

One truth that must be admitted, on behalf of all men is this. If we see a woman and find her attractive, we immediately think lusty thoughts. This is true for ALL male personalities, be it "nice guys", "real men", "bad boys" etc.

But, the "nice guy/doormat" personality views himself as being above his own biology by doing the things that "nice guy/doormats" do.

Sometimes the "nice guy/doormat" can be found listening to a woman complain about something and being reassuring even when she's wrong, or when he'd rather be anywhere else.

This is his classic behaviour, among others. Do not justify this type of behaviour to yourself as being the right thing to do, because when you act this way, your motivation is to gain her approval and hopefully become romantically involved, and your motivation is not to genuinely help her.

What do you think what you call an "a$$hole" would do in the same situation? He'd point out where he believes that she acted inappropriately, and tell her that she should make amends. That does genuinely help her, and he won't have to listen to her complaints anymore either. This is what women mean when they say that they want "honesty".

Summary: You either still feel you are right, and will continue acting this way. Or, you will realize that there must be a reason that "a$$holes" are getting all the women you want,

and then you will realize that maybe the common denominator with your lack of luck for women actually is you,

and maybe there is a way to work on it instead of blaming the rest of society for your entire life.

Your choice. I made my choice to come to the "dark side" a few years ago, and even though I'm not the super-stud I'd like to be, it's a road well worth travelling.

Good luck.