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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 4:04:45 PM | A fortiori
Cum hoc ergo propter hoc / non causa pro causa much?
ya but I'm trying to cut down.
Hakuma matata much?
casheyesblond
While sharing with this one in the forums,I have found that he does not have to result to things like trying to break down others just to build himself up.And I believe that his posts can stand alone on their own merits and imo he is someone that can operate off a premise in an original post notwithstanding any personal beliefs and still display integrity and objectivity while also being able to identify inherent biases and assumptions,separating facts from opinions but most importantly setting his emotions aside and addressing a post or problem from a position of facts like a only a critical thinker would. What kind of humanitarian is he? I have found that his posts seem motivate me,not humiliate me.
Wow. Careful that you don't put me so high on a pedestal that I become out of reach. 
Wish I could say I was worthy of that praise, but I don't think so. That post came at the end of a bad week involving me losing a patient, sick every day, failing my first mid term ever, then coming here and seeing a bunch of hatemongering threads - religion is the evil in the world, if you hate god, biblical violence is the real porn, etc, and after skimming through the opening post in my ill-tempered, febrile state I think I jumped to the conclusion that this thread is was a thinly veiled attempt to bash theism and I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions. For that, I apologize.
*hangs head in shame* | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 4:17:04 PM |
Hakuma matata much?
Sigh....
That's argumentum ad Hakuma matata
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 4:19:37 PM | Rockondon:
I think I jumped to the conclusion that this thread is was a thinly veiled attempt to bash theism and I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions. For that, I apologize.
*hangs head in shame*
I appreciate your position, Rockondon, we've all have our bad days and then some.
And from one flawed human being to another : Apology whole heartedly accepted.
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 4:33:20 PM | Sorry, but I read the thread and I do not see the Atheists view? I was hoping it was a valid point on why atheists are atheists. Explaining that religion is pushed down your throats makes someone an atheist? I did not think that was the view.
I did notice that if there was a God why didn't he ...................whatever
But there is no God according to atheists so why even go there? | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 4:58:11 PM |
Sorry, but I read the thread and I do not see the Atheists view? I was hoping it was a valid point on why atheists are atheists. As though an atheist's view should appease YOU? That that is the only way their collective views can be valid? Please, lol....
I am no longer an atheist, but I was for a few years and know what it is like to be discriminated against for having views in opposition to what up until now was dominant..
Now I get discriminated against by both religious fundies AND the closed minded atheists.... but I'm a big girl, I can take it, lol.... | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 5:16:43 PM | Not sure this is valid cause I've never been an atheist, but I'm here now, lol.
I'd just like to say that I sympathized with atheists because I felt very close to being in that mindset many times. But I wonder if the idea of pluralism might encourage a more flexible way of thinking among them... or is pluralism a dirty word here? | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 5:25:31 PM |
As though an atheist's view should appease YOU? That that is the only way their collective views can be valid? Please, lol....
I do not understand that response sassyaguarius. I am serious I just would like to know why. It would not change me. Is it just thinking out of the box, or is it a fear ,or is it a hate for something that at one time you believed. But felt shorted and came to that conclusion that there is no God for me or a real God if at all. Because I see the way this world is. I am just guessing I can not relate to it. So tell me with out bashing mine or anyone's faith in what ever we believe in. Curious | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 5:38:29 PM |
I do not understand that response sassyaguarius. This is what you said:
Sorry, but I read the thread and I do not see the Atheists view? I was hoping it was a valid point on why atheists are atheists. Which implies that the only way an atheist is entitled to their view is if it is understandable and comprehensible to you...
Well guess what? There are MANY people in this world who cannot understand why YOU believe as YOU do! How can I say that with such surety? Because we are all different!
I am just guessing I can not relate to it. So tell me with out bashing mine or anyone's faith in what ever we believe in. Curious Okay, I will tell you why I was an atheist... because I did not believe in the Father God in the sky story. To be frank, I can recall sitting in church as a small child thinking that something was really wrong... something I could not describe or put my finger on.. it just didn't feel right..
I have asked this question of many of my christian friends: have you ever sat in that pew thinking that something just doesn't sound/feel right? The answer has always been yes, so then I ask... how then do you just sit there and override that feeling... ? Don't you want the answers for yourself? Why are you accepting someone else's answers as opposed to finding your own?
see... that is something I cannot relate to... but then, we are all different and thank God for it :) | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 5:46:44 PM | Pluralism is a wonderful word, skypoetone, and no, it's not a dirty word.
But until the world wakes up to the realization that we actually can all get along with the main goal of living in peace and enriching the world around us, rather than tearing it apart..... and yet still allowing diversity.... well, we're just going to carry on grabbing at each other's throats.
Pluralism, IMO, has to start from the top down. And that certainly isn't happening yet, if ever. Unfortunately, the most common nature of people (most, not all) is to clump together in packs and growl at those outside of the pack.
The top dogs of the world need to set the precidence, and then the masses will slowly fall into place. | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 6:00:29 PM | I sense this is a sensitive subject for some reason sassy. I have my answers about me and my faith. I didn't know if you where asking me personally or not. And I do know what you are saying when having so many questions. I did to. We are all human. We all have questions. I liked the way you ended your statement "but then, we are all different and thank God for it :)"
That was confusing ....... but OK  | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 6:14:21 PM |
I liked the way you ended your statement "but then, we are all different and thank God for it :)"
That was confusing ....... but OK Only confusing if you assume I was referring to your conceptualization of God ;)
The top dogs of the world need to set the precidence, and then the masses will slowly fall into place. It can happen the other way too... pressure from masses of people has made huge differences...
Just look at how many churches cull their ideology to suit what the masses want... anyone else smell Burger King? Lol... | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 7:41:48 PM | I have a story to share :
My daughter is turning 17 this summer, and sometime around early fall last year she sat down with me over a cup of earl grey tea and started discussing religion (literally out of the blue).
Now religion is not something that’s been discussed much in my home just because it’s never been questioned nor was it ever a daily part in our lives, so the subject rarely came up. I celebrate the ‘Christian’ holidays (Christmas, Easter, etc) because of my own traditional upbringing and thus carry on the traditions with my own daughter. As does my ex-husband (he leans towards Buddhism by the way), he’s as much a part of her life as I am…. We share joint custody and have always co-parented her together as a team. I guess we’re lucky that way, I know many ex-couples who are unable to accomplish this.
Anyways, my daughter went ahead and told me she was an atheist. Which shocked the crap out of me because I know this definitely wasn’t my influence whatsoever. She didn’t know that I was an atheist up to that point. I’ve never discussed it with her, as I feel it’s not my right to directly or indirectly try to sway her way of thinking (in that area of life anyways).
Now my ex-husband and I have always raised our daughter to be open-minded, loving, compassionate, to find her own path in life, to make her own decisions and to not allow others to influence her away from what makes her happy (whatever path that may be).
The reason I was so shocked is because her best friend since elementary (these two are literally joined at the hip) is a born-again Christian. So I thus just assumed that my daughter would take on some of that influence (which kids naturally do whether we want them to or not). Particularly because she goes to various church gatherings, church teen dances, etc with her girlfriend all the time.
At this point, the first word out of my mouth was “why”. She went on to explain her reasoning, explaining that even though she goes to all of these church gatherings with her girlfriend, she’s never felt truly comfortable with all of the preaching, etc. that goes on. Nor is she comfortable with these people telling her what her morals and standards should be. And when she would ask questions about certain things in the bible that the group was currently discussing, she would basically get an answer of : “it’s not your place to question, you just need to have faith in what ‘the word’ says”.
I guess I can understand her problem with that area, because her father and I have always sat down and explained things to her when she was enquiring about something…. Or at least we would try to answer as best as we could until she was satisfied with our answers. She’s always been an analytical/inquisitive kid. So not being able to get straight answers, or not getting an answer that satisfied the question in her mind would, at best, be a little frustrating for her.
But these things don’t stop her from participating with her girlfriend because she does enjoy the social aspect of it.
Anyways, she continued to tell me that her and her friends have talked about religion quite a bit in the past couple of years. She found that they all had some sort of religious background…. Christian, Baptist, Catholic, etc. Which made her feel out of place because she was unsure of the existence of any god in her own mind. And I guess after contemplating things for a while, researching on the internet, etc etc. She came to the conclusion that she just didn’t believe it at all.
At that point, I told her that I too was an atheist…. And much to my surprise, she showed a huge sigh of relief. I guess she thought that I was going to tar and feather her for wanting to be an atheist. Even though her dad and I both told her that it didn’t matter what religion, if any, she chose to go with. But I did tell her that it might be better to consider herself an agnostic rather than atheist, because atheism is a very strong word and she’s probably not ready yet to make such a harsh decision. She insists that this is what she is though, so I left it at that.
Since then, we’ve had many discussions on the topic and I’ve explained a few realities to her about what it means to be an atheist, in terms of trying to keep herself neutral around others, among other things.
Needless to say, my daughter figured she knew better and went to school spouting off that she was an atheist and proud of it, blah blah blah. Big mistake kiddo ! Sure enough, she’s already had a firsthand taste of name calling, demonizing, and so on with some classmates (and even a couple of teachers believe it or not). Thankfully, her friends stood beside her and had her back, sort of speak. But since then, my kid has learned that mom was right after all and it’s better to just keep it to herself unless someone comes right out and asks her…. I don’t condone lying.
Heh, poor kid. She attempted militant atheism right from the get-go only to learn that’s not the way to go. And most of the world doesn’t appreciate atheism shoved in their face (like countless other things in life). She’s also learned that jumping up and down does not get results with anyone either.
I’m grateful that the ruckus has died down at school for her now, and it’s basically all but forgotten from the other kids…. They have far better things to pick on people for, like braces and having four eyes, etc *snicker*. Ahhh yes, the good ol’ school days…. I don’t miss them one bit.
But what I love that I’ve witnessed with my daughter’s age group is that, for the most part, the majority of kids are open-minded and not overly judgmental when it comes to things like religion. In fact they seem to be much more tolerant and compassionate of each others’ beliefs and all still manage to be great friends with each other (and I don’t just mean with their own immediate circle of friends).
Which gives me hope for the future generations. Unfortunately, our generation(s) are pretty much engraved in stone, IMO…. It’s difficult to teach an old dog new tricks.
So perhaps, we are afterall, teaching the younger generation(s) to be more ‘brotherly’ and open with one another !
Here’s to hoping…. ! | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 8:18:05 PM | My oldest is an atheist, my middle daughter agnostic.. my youngest is nine, so she looks up to me... therefore I don't really consider her to even have a belief system, for it is still forming.. as she unfolds.. such a beautiful thing to witness and be a part of :)
I too told my children to be careful and also that they need to learn who they can and cannot talk to about this stuff, otherwise...
My children have faced ridicule and rejection for having different beliefs in this christian-laden area, but they have come to understand that it says faaaar more about those others than it does them...
For regardless of belief systems and the divisive lines that lie in between.. we are all imperfect beings learning to be perfectly who we are in an imperfect world.. one that we help to create in our own unique way..
Here’s to hoping…. ! I'm with ya! | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/2/2008 10:48:22 PM | Just alittle Crazy
I was hoping it was a valid point on why atheists are atheists.
I think what got Sassy's hair in a ruff is that nobody has to validate their beliefs for anyone. Your sentence seems rather confrontational, demanding a valid reason to legitimize beliefs - although I suspect that was not your intent.
Despite all that, I'll try to provide you that valid reason. I'm a weak atheist, nearly the same as an agnostic.
I like to form beliefs and opinions from a foundation of reason, knowledge, and/or evidence. If I don't have any of that, my opinion is worthless and I suspend judgement until I can make an informed choice on what to believe. If I had no idea about something, such as the existence of a god, and presented my belief as fact - that would make me a liar. The honest answer is "I don't know" and the dishonest answer is....anything else. I've seen no evidence supporting God, dragons, or unicorns, and so I don't believe them - however my beliefs are everchanging in light of new evidence and I will eagerly change them as soon as the evidence supporting their existence rolls in.
Many people choose their beliefs as though life is a buffet - they like to think 'X' is true and so they believe it, as though believing it somehow makes it more likely. And then their pride is on the line, their beliefs are a part of them, they are highly motivated to want to keep believing despite evidence to the contrary. And anyone who has the courage and objectivity to pursue such contrary evidence is often tarred as a liar, they miscalculated, they're biased, they don't like bunnies, they're untrustworthy - and the thousands of other scientists who tried to prove the evidence wrong and ended up confirming it instead, well, they're 'bad' people too. No amount of evidence can dissuade someone who is willing to lie to himself to believe what he wants to.
I find disconfirming evidence exciting, overturning old erroneous beliefs in light of new evidence builds character and strengthens a belief system. Sancrosanct beliefs breed ignorance and hate, imho. | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/3/2008 3:56:05 AM |
Now religion is not something that’s been discussed much in my home just because it’s never been questioned nor was it ever a daily part in our lives, so the subject rarely came up.
Just an honest question, I realize she is bright but you also indicate that religion was never a part of your home. Perhaps she believed in nothing (as far as religion) since nothing was what was taught at home. On the other hand, my children were brought up in church but not force fed and the younger believes in a higher power but not in the traditional trinity. He said that since I allowed them to make their own decisions, he was most comfortable with this. The older believes in God but rarely attends church. I had also seen some Bible thumpers begat Bible thumpers and those with no beliefs who have children who became very religious and those who were really religious have children who believe in nothing. I guess everyone has to find what is comforting for themselves. I have friends with all types of beliefs and some with none. It is the person and how they live their lives that matters to me.
A lot of people who shove their beliefs or non-beliefs down others throats is the problem. We need a live and let live society. | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/3/2008 5:40:34 AM | I was really glad to see the last couple of posts being honest in how they feel. I am not here to bash any ones believes. Yes I am a believer in God almighty and yes the bible. I know many that do not believe in what I believe. I am not pushing my faith. No bible quotes here. Being said. Everyone I feel is searching for answers and we all want real truth in our lives or what we feel is truth and we can either go with the flow and traditions or ask or see for ourselves. I was one to see for myself.
I was born to two very loving Jewish parents. In my youth there was traditions. In my youth there was hate. I remember being beat up because my people killed Christ. Well that's what I was told. I never felt like I needed God. Kind of believed the things taught to me was valid. But didn't understand. I was one to ask questions also and never ever was satisfied with the answers my self.
When I lost my father, I lost my job, I had another child to take care of, and I just bought a big house for my family for a better way of life leaving Brooklyn. The neighbor hood was getting worse there at the time. I was confused lost searching for meaning in this world. We all hate to ask. WHY? Seems many do not ever get the answer that completes them. Eventually I did.
I had Jehovah witnesses knock on my door. I had in laws that where Catholic trying to explain to me there faith and mine was wrong. I asked those in Judaism so whats our real faith being I wasn't really ever active in it. No real answers. But there was one gentleman I met which was Jewish and a Christian and I was like, you can not put the two together! Are you kidding me! Well he told me about Jesus being the Messiah. I was like yeah right.
So in my heart I was like God I need to know! I started to read my fathers Bible it did not have the new testament of course. Blew of the cob webs on it. I was surprised at first and it was very hard to understand. So being this is so long already. And I am most likely in the wrong thread to begin with. I read all of it. And I knew in my heart I was headed in the right direction. Then I bought and read a new bible with the new Testament. I compared many different bibles. KJV, NIV, LIVING, LIFE, American standard. Trying to disprove where I was headed. All the roads went in the same direction for me. I went to many many bible studies. Chopping up everything I read over and over and over again and again. My kids say I should be a pastor. But no way. I am still not perfect and I still can get upset and still do things I wish I did not do. They love youth group. I never pushed my walk on them. They followed on there own. I am very proud of them.
I know and I felt the dogma of Christianity like every one else. If I had one thing to add I would say. People are just people in the way they act. No mater what faith they are. But people looking at them need to understand that they and everyone is not perfect. And Judging who God is by how people act. You are not going to ever understand how God really is. I would love to say that all those of my faith are loving and caring and helping each other. But that just doesn't pan out. | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/3/2008 11:42:57 AM | AncientMuse, thanks for sharing your daughter's experiences. I too have a daughter who has a deep commitment to others and friendship without regard to sameness of beliefs. My son and his friends seem to operate on similar principles. I've never thought to ask if they are Christians or even Theists, and I don't think it really matters one way or the other to any of them. And I don't care what they believe, only how they act in my home and how they treat each other. They seem to operate on the principle of how you treat them and others in terms of deciding who to foster relationships with. From working with teens in Canada I'd say that most are generally accepting of differences (though cliques exist). I'm glad to hear that her best friend is a Christian because it shows in a very real way that mutual respect and understanding and tolerance can foster such relationships. In my mind, there is nothing in either belief/philosophy that would automatically exclude a relationship with the other.
As a general observation, I think that Canada embraces diversity and promotes multiculturalism and socialises people to be more tolerant and accepting. And I think this is one of those "Canadian" things that other think of when they express admiration for Canada. It's certainly one of the things that I love about this great country of ours. I think our kids will inherit a better world for this, and I think they will continue to move away from polarisation and towards embrace.
Someone asked about whether an Atheist could be a President of the US. When I think about it, I don't have a clue what the beliefs of various Canadian Prime Minister's were. Do you? We don't seem to care about such things. | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/3/2008 12:28:53 PM |
Someone asked about whether an Atheist could be a President of the US. When I think about it, I don't have a clue what the beliefs of various Canadian Prime Minister's were. Do you? We don't seem to care about such things.
Now that you mention it, no I don't think I'm aware of any of our Prime Minister's religious backgrounds. I'm sure they've been briefly mentioned along the way, but certainly have not been a topic of issue at any point that I can recall.
The majority of the zealots rantings in our media, from what I've seen, seems to be coming from 'south of the border'.
And that's why I get seriously dumbfounded and shocked when I have come across religious intolerance here. It just doesn't seem all that common in our country based on any, or lack thereof, media coverage. And yet I do come across it more times than I'd like.
By the way RO...I am, speaking of Canada, planning to dig deeply into our Charter of Rights and various Provincial legislations to see if we have any similar biases to some of the US state constitutions that I've come across (based on another discussion you and I had in another thread). I learned alot about the US constitutions in my research. My assumption (and hope) is that we (Canada) don't carry the same biases.
And I agree, I too love this great nation of ours. | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/3/2008 7:51:28 PM | And It Can Be, I don't know that the fact that there is order and organization in everything proves the existence of God. If I look at a house, I think of man and of someone who designed and built it, it has "man" all over it. When I look at a tree, I don't think of man ...except that someone planted it a particular place, pruned it, manipulated it, but not created a "tree" .... but nor do I think of God, either.
I think as we look at a house we think someone created that, it just didn't spring up by itself or come together randomly ... we take that logic and apply it to the natural world, that "someone" must have designed and created and constructed it.
It could be that God is something quite beyond what we imagine and every single religious belief out there is man-made and false. No one really has the corner on the proper conception of God, though they all think they do. It could be that an atheist is just someone who has not found a belief system that makes sense to them and, if they did find a theology that did, would be considered a theist but until such time as they do, they are an atheist. | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/4/2008 4:40:43 AM | Terpsichore wrote that "We" don't seem to care. Do atheist carry membershp cards?
danny | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/4/2008 5:04:50 AM | | In my view atheists are no better or worse that the theist for their mindset. Simply to say that they don't have the understanding of what God is isn't good enough. That the atheists are too proud and conceited, blatantly bias. But if you hold the middle ground it's easier to see both sides of the argument, imho. | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/4/2008 8:37:38 AM | skypoetone
That the atheists are too proud and conceited, blatantly bias. Are you saying that atheists are all three of those things, or that those who accuse them of being proud and conceited are biased? Having trouble interpreting your post.
Being accused of being proud and conceited for not believing in God is like being proud and conceited for not believing there is a 3 headed alien in your closet. Suspending judgement on things you have no evidence for (yet) is pretty reasonable thinking imho.
But if you hold the middle ground it's easier to see both sides of the argument, imho. What do you mean by middle ground? | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/4/2008 10:39:21 AM |
Are you saying that atheists are all three of those things, or that those who accuse them of being proud and conceited are biased?
Rock, I'm not laying the accusations at any one group, I'm saying it happens from both, equally.
The middle ground for me is moderation, as I am between atheism and theism. I just feel there is dogmatism in both. It's too easy to stress that we know one way is better than the other.
I guess this makes me the meat in the sandwich to some or a bloody great wedge to others. lol | |
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| An Atheist’s Viewpoint
Posted: 4/5/2008 11:47:04 AM | well i was born & raised as muslim but since my childhood i was very much not religious person compare to my siblings, coming to usa & studying was the best thing ever happened to me & that lead to rais many questions of my upbringing. i always was an athiest untill my 30th birthday & i came out of closet & told my sisters & my father that i do not belive in allah , quran & anything thing what they thought was good beliafs, to my astonishment my family accepted me with open arms & i still have good relations with them. i do not not think i will ever go back to my country cause of my non beliave & say some thing wrong to wrong person at wrong time & end up in a video tape execution.
so i do not find myself discriminated. | |
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