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| Sumerians
Posted: 4/7/2008 10:01:49 PM | Genesis 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
John 5
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."
I consider this to be strong support that the days spoken of in Genesis 1, are not meant to be observed as literal 24 hour days. If Jesus says that the Father has continued working to this day, then either
1) Christ is wrong because God rested on the seventh day
2) Genesis is wrong God never rested on the seventh day
3) Christ and/or Genesis is misunderstood.
If we look at the following verse after Genesis 2:3 when the sabbath is first mentioned,
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
This verse states that these are not literal days, but are generations describing a specific era or period of time, that is categorized by a singular expression and is referred to as a ' day'.
The word 'day' is used in the sense as both these phrases use the word 'day'..('back in my 'day' we never had television') or even as used here..(' the 'day' will come when we will no longer need oil')
As we see the creation is said to take 7 days, including the sabbath, and yet when they are described in verse 4, the 7 days are described as the singular 'day' of creation..., after the 7 days are listed in Genesis 1 &2....Verse 4 states that these days of creation are applicable to be generations. So it would be better understood that there are 6 era's or generations of time periods, that are actually fulfilled in each 'day' span listed.
On another note..
I believe there is some significance that the natural man Adam, came into the world already created a fully developed man, and there is a reason, he began his purpose, already created, as the physical representation mankind in a completed form. I believe that this to signify that mankind in the physical expression is demonstrated as being complete with no further physical growth necessary. While on the flip side the Spiritual Man and Second Adam, Jesus Christ, came into the world in embryo, as the Seed of the Spirit, implanted in the woman for the purpose of being brought to a state of completion. This shows me that the spiritual man is a work in progress that must reach the place where he can be fully considered as perfected in God's image and likeness.
I consider the significance of this, that at best, we can only attain to the birth of the Spirit in this realm, and we must remain in an embryo type status spiritually, until the full image of God is revealed in us, when the day of creation is fulfilled. | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 5/12/2008 11:19:07 PM | | I picked up a copy of the book "History begins at Sumer" many years ago. It was fascinating. The author seemed to think the Bible was borrowing from the Sumerians as many of the accounts were similar. I have no problem with that. There was no official religion set down by God in the beginning of history. Gods chosen people began with Abraham. For all we know, Job, which supposedly is the oldest book of the Bible, could have been a Sumerian. I see what the Sumerians wrote down as more confirmation of the Bible being accurate than not. For example, there is an ancient list of Sumerian kings who lived impossibly long lives, like 800 and 900 years, which is similar to lives lived in the early chapters of Genesis. The Babyloanians surely got much info from the Sumerians, and they made up seals (pictures on clay) of the Adam and Eve story. One of these seals is at the University Museum in Philadelphia. Though the Sumerians had a different take of things than the Bible, I do not see much of a conflict in them negating what is set down in Genesis. | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 5/12/2008 11:34:22 PM | I don't know much about the Sumerians, so I'm hoping someone here can help me.
Does anyone know why the Sumerians used base 60 in their mathematics?
I heard we use base 10 more often, probably as a result of having 10 fingers, but where did 60 come from? Why was 60 important to them? | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 29 | |
| Sumerians
Posted: 5/13/2008 8:58:46 AM | ^^^ Here: http://history-world.org/sumeria.htm
Everything you ever wanted to know about the Sumerians but were afraid to ask.
Or, if you just want to know more about their use of '60', scroll down to where it says, "The Sumerian Achievement" and read that section.
"...the planning of the vast public works under their control led the priests to develop a useful mathematical notation, including both a decimal notation and a system based upon 60, which has given us our sixty-second minute, our sixty-minute hour and our division of the circle into 360 degrees. They invented mathematical tables and used quadratic equations. Both for religious and agricultural purposes, they studied the heavens, and they created a lunar calendar with a day of 24 hours and a week of seven days. Much of this science was transmitted to the West by the Greeks and later by the Arabs. It is not surprising, however, that the achievement which the Sumerians themselves admired most was the city itself."
"...The Sumerians based their number system on 10, but they multiplied 10 by 6 to get the next unit. They multiplied 60 by 10, then multiplied 600 by 6, and so on. (The number 60 has the advantage of being divisible by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, and 30.) The Sumerians also divided the circle into 360 degrees. From these early people came the word dozen (a fifth of 60) and the division of the clock to measure hours, minutes, and seconds.
The Sumerians had standard measures, with units of length, area, and capacity. Their standard weight was the mina, made up of 60 shekels--about the same weight as a pound. There was no coined money. Standard weights of silver served as measures of value and as a means of exchange." | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 5/14/2008 9:09:02 AM | I really like the reading on this thread, i 2 have had alot of questions about this. There are so many things in the bible that make you scratch your head.
I think you might be reading quite alot into the simple words that are written, i would have to go by Occam's razor which would say usually the simplest answer is the correct one. Your makings this alot more confusing then it realyl should be.
Its says he created man out of our image and of our likeness, So we look like our creator correct. If this wasn't the case why would it be stated then? to confuse us and assume this or that is what is meant ? why do so many ppl try and throw the words off track. Keep it simple stupid.
There is the whole creation, the bible does it within a few statements and the sumerians go into quite some detail with it. Now the one say when we die we will return to dust. now the other one states that we were from from red clay or something along those line. So if thats true then it would make sense as to why we return to dust when we die.
So many record have been destroyed which would clear up alot of this confusion that we have today with these old passages. If you really read the bible for what it is instead of a bunch of assumptions of what you think they might have meant or what others before you assumed. Whats wrong with taking it at face value. I have alot more to say but im at work and cannot gather my thoughts properly at this moment hahaha damn
anywho have a good day
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| Sumerians
Posted: 5/14/2008 10:29:12 AM | Hello ravenstar,
I think the more you study the sumerians the more similarities with the bible you will find. Including the great flood a story believed originated from the sumerians.
As for all the astronomy, I have to ask where are you "studying" these ancient texts. If you mean you are looking on websites like propheciesRus.com I wouldn't say your studies are academically worthwhile, but at the moment that's just an assumption.
I criticise the bible a lot for people "misinterpreting it" however, the sumerian "written" language is a lot easier to misinterpret. As far as I am aware there is no definitive translation of sumerian hieroglyphs just theory and assumption based on Egyptian hieroglyphs. I think when discussing their "knowledge" of the solar system you should also bare in mind that some people translate some of the hieroglyphs as alien creatures that visited them, gave them this knowledge, changed their DNA and taught them all sorts of medical wonders. My point being you can read a lot of different things into them.
I hope you enjoy studying the sumerians.
PS. it's not the oldest KNOWN civilization with writing, which I'm sure you'll enjoy finding out during your studies. | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 12:20:06 PM | Ok if it is not the oldest then please provide some info on this ? If anything i would say the natives of the Americas would be the next oldest if not around the same era.
Alot of the teachings and painting are really close in detail with the information from the Sumerians, as well as the pyramid making and sacrifices. There is alot of info people should start cross referencing with these cultures from The Americas | |
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Posted: 5/15/2008 8:02:25 AM | Ok Andy, I am curious too. Everything I can find on the topic states that the Sumerians are the oldest known civilization, which includes writing that they left. Unless you are talking about cave paintings, which could hardly be considered a civilization, I cannot imagine who else would qualify for the title.
Ok, I just did a quick search. There was some writings found in Egypt that they say "may" predate the Sumerians. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 34 | |
| Sumerians
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:14:24 AM | http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/
"The Epic of Gilgamesh is, perhaps, the oldest written story on Earth. It comes to us from Ancient Sumeria, and was originally written on 12 clay tablets in cunieform script. It is about the adventures of the historical King of Uruk (somewhere between 2750 and 2500 BCE).
The translator chose to eliminate Tablet XII for personal reasons, with support from many literary, archaeological, and linguistic experts because it appears to be more of a sequel to the first 11 tablets, containing a story about Enkidu volunteering to retrieve some objects that Gilgamesh dropped into the Netherworld." | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:30:08 AM | | Did some more research and found out that some symbols have been found on pottery in Harappa, part of the Indus Valley Civilzation. These symbols may have developed into the Indus language which is a dead language as it has not been able to be deciphered. These symbols may predate the Egyptian writing I mentioned earlier, but this civilzation seems to be contemporary with the Sumerians. At any rate, it is just some symbols at this point. | |
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Posted: 5/15/2008 8:40:34 AM | From what I have seen so far the Sumerians were the first with a written language, followed by the Egyptians and then the people of the Indus valley, then the Chinese, then the South American.. but I can't remember if it was the Olmec, or the Inca first.
I do agree that translation of Sumerian cuneiform is still tentative.. although it seemed to work well with the Epic of Gilgamesh and the creation myths.. and various other texts (mainly commercial records) there are still a lot of untranslated texts from Sumer.
Abram was from Ur, a Sumerian city-state..(Though I'm not sure if it was pure Sumerian at that time, Akkadian or Chaldean rule, though it was before the Empire of Babylon's time) when he left he was renamed Abra-ham by "god".. 'ham' must mean something significant in ancient hebrew. A new name in shamanic tradition usually denotes a spiritual death and rebirth as well as a dedication to a certain deity, I'm thinking that is what this name change meant.
When the Judeans went back (under force) to Sumeria.. it was much later and under Babylonian rule. Many people mistake this for the influence of Sumeria on the Hebrews, but the Hebrews came out of ancient Sumeria originally and only later went back.
The creation story of the Sumerians seems like a much longer and more detailed version (and it's much much older) than the account in Genesis... but the basic story is VERY similar...even to some of the phrasing, which is surprising considering that Hebrew and Sumerian have no linguistic connection that we can see.
I've been working and have not had the time lately to look into this on a deeper level, but it's on my list!
Thanks all! | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:41:51 AM | ahhh.. the Harrapa
now there is a mystery... not sure when that is dated, or where they disappeared to.
I forgot about them. | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 5/15/2008 5:14:05 PM | phoebus and RDtoo have you been spending hours surfing the web? - sorry but, I'm full of shit. But as I have intrigued you with an off-topic subject i suppose I better defend myself.
It all depends on your definition of civilisation and of writing. I am assuming, as you lot are talking a lot about cuneiform, that this is what you are classing as "written" language. However I did do an undergraduate in writing and publishing so I'm going to argue, with typical university type ambiguous argument that is not. Writing in my definition is the passing on of knowledge by means other than human contact, which in university speak includes rocks piled up on one another to denote a watering hole or hunting ground, so cave painting are in that too. But, that's all bullshit and irrelevant.
As far as I can remember cuneiform dates to 2500-3000bc and the sumerian "civilisation" had been around for a long time before they started with that. But you also have (as previously mentioned) dholavira (if I've spelt it right) in harappan from est. 5000bc, a current argument of writing as old as 6000bc in china (you may think i'm taking the piss on that on one though).
And my favourite australia which is dated anywhere between 50-10,000bc. Again, if you want to get into a debate about what is civilisation and what is writing then fair enough but bare in mind agriculture could be as old 15-20,000 years old, evidence of mining from 20,000 years ago and sea-faring from 20,000 years ago, also remember we had conquered the entire globe by 20,000 years ago (or earlier I can't remember exact). writing - pictures that pass on knowledge of what animals exist in a certain area, I class that as communication. And of course you have atlantis as well.
Anyway, didn't think people would take me serious, so sorry. | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 5/15/2008 6:40:58 PM | Andy, your claim was that the Sumerians were not the oldest known civilization with writing. I have a dictionary that defines civilization as "a state of human society charcterised by a high level of intellectual, social, and cultural development". I think the Sumerians are the oldest known example. If the Indus Valley people were as advanced as the Sumerians, there is a lack of evidence. As far as your statement that we had conquered the entire globe as of 20,000 years ago, that's absurd.
On a related note, about ancient civilizations, someone told me once that there were some ideas that the Sphinx in Egypt was not built by the Egyptians, but an earlier unknown group of people. I have never came across any info on that though. | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 5/16/2008 4:02:44 AM | hello RDtoo,
my claim was I was full of shit, when did the human race go global?
and the sphinx is considered older than the egyptians because of grooves down itside that look like weathering by water the conlcusion is it is was built when the area was in a wetter climate, it's been discounted, argued by people like graham hancock - he has a website. | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:09:55 AM | yes i have head this as well before. The arguement comes from the fact that the Sphinx is alot older then the egyptians and any other known civilized culture. So if its was here before man start building anything i would guess the pyramids were just as old.
No one is saying your full of shlt but if your going to say that then give some kinda of point of refer for us to look at or something. Like more ppl on here thats what they will be looking for when statements like that are made on here.
Has anybody looked into the Ancient Americas ? I been reading a book about some of the writings and history over there and this person has done quite alot of research. its quite interesting to read how similar their stories and pictures of the all seeing eye looks the same. | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 7/19/2008 3:04:18 PM | Hello,
I joined this conversation late so I thought I would toss out a few facts. I have been studying the Sumerians for awhile. Although I have not craked open a book in a few months and just moved so all my reference books are in storage right now except one. I am reading mostly Enlightenment period works right now. (FYI, My grammer is atrocious)
If you want good information on the subject go to
The Internet Sacred Text Archives http://www.sacred-texts.com/
Visit Eisenbrauns on the web at http://www.eisenbrauns.com
Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/
The Epic of Gilgamesh is Babylonian not Sumerian. It is a combination of various Gilgamesh stories from the Sumerians with a slight twist. Sort of like making one big movie from an authurs collection of short stories. The movie follows the idea but nothing is ever the exact same.
It is widly agreed among the experts and stated by Samuel Kramer that the Sumerians had communication with the Egyptians. The were refered to as the "Magan" and the use of one of their boats is in one of the Sumerian Gilgamash stories. Also it has been argued that the Greeks also had interaction with the Sumerians due to alot of myths being somewhat similar.
When the timeline went from Sumeria to Babylonia . It wasn't really a different people taking over of sorts it was more of a different center of power of sorts. Originally Ur was in controll then it shifted to Babylonia which was a functioning city during the Sumerian timeframe and somewhere in the middle of this transaction of main power and cultural identitiy (much as England and America) Abraham was born. He would have been trained in the Sumerian Edubba (School in sumerian) where one learned all the good stuff about their culture and gods. This may be a reason for so much Biblical information being similar to Sumerian and Babylonian stuff. One thing of interesting thought is The sun god Utu (sumerian) and Shamash (Babylonian) was the one who told the sumerian Noah to build the boat before the flood and the the same sun god is the one who will judge the dead in the underworld to determine if they were good people of not. The moon god also judged the dead in the underworld. I will not make any statements about this but does it sound familiar. | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 7/20/2008 12:07:35 AM | | celestial beings came down from the heavens and gave them knowledge. Check out zacharia stetchen on youtube. Its all there. | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 7/20/2008 9:53:02 AM |
From what I have seen so far the Sumerians were the first with a written language, followed by the Egyptians and then the people of the Indus valley, then the Chinese, then the South American.. but I can't remember if it was the Olmec, or the Inca first.
So that’s 2700 to 2500BC for Sameria, the oldest so far?
Then what about this story?
Archaeologists Revise Age of China's Civilization
A group of Chinese archaeologists --revising the orthodox theory that China's civilization originated 5,000 years -- believe the nation's roots can be traced back 8,000 to 10,000 years. ">
They have unearthed China's earliest painting, writing, colored pottery, crop seed strain specimen and buildings showing the development from a rural to an urban society at Dadiwan Ruins in northwest China.
These early cultural relics, so far unrecorded in any historical book, belong to five ancient periods dating back to 8,000 years ago.
Prof. Li Xueqin, the prestigious researcher on the ancient history of China, said the discovery at Dadiwan Ruins suggested that the origins of China's civilization could be far earlier than the Shang Dynasty (16th to 11th century B.C.) and even the Xia Dynasty (2200 B.C. - 1700 B.C.).
http://english.people.com.cn/200212/05/eng20021205_108006.shtml
So if they are from 8ooo years ago, wouldn’t that date from around 6000BC? Isn’t that much older than the Sumerian artifacts? | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 7/20/2008 10:08:40 AM |
So if they are from 8ooo years ago, wouldn’t that date from around 6000BC? Isn’t that much older than the Sumerian artifacts?
There are many areas all over the world which have traces of humans that are older than the Sumerians, the question is whether or not they are sufficient to be called a "civilization", which usually denotes more advanced features like writing, a calendar, government, religion, division of labor, etc. | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 8/3/2008 12:26:41 PM | The Sumerian civilization as far as we can find records and whatnot starts at around 6000 - 5000BC.
The whole 2000 - 3000BC thing you are quoting would be the time frame for the Early Dynastic, Sargonic and Ur III period which is the time frames for most of the Sumerian writing we have, with a large majority of it from Ur III and very little from the Early dynastic period. | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 8/2/2009 9:05:31 AM | | If you connect the dots,which most people fail to do, You would see that Our invasion of Iraq has a connection to these Sumerian Tablets that are being discovered over there,and of course being withheld from mainstream knowledge. | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 8/2/2009 11:24:40 AM | | Do you think you could expand on that statement Julian, for those of us who are in the dark? | |
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| Sumerians
Posted: 8/16/2009 6:38:51 PM | There are thousands of tablets that have been unearthed many many years ago that are still being translated. The problem is that there are not enough corroborating tablets to confirm the translation and to fill in the gaps.
Most tablets are in fragments so often only once a tablet has been fished out of a cupboard in a museum in Turkey and connected with on from Philadelphia can the translation be complete and published.
I would like to hear what tablets you are speaking of though? There were many artifacts that were plundered from the Iraqi museum of art. And what would you consider "mainstream" knowledge? | |
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