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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 3/16/2009 3:40:18 PM | I don't know of any Nasa articles regarding this rogue planet you mention. Planet 'X' or Nibiru that supposedly passes through our solar system every 3600 is, at best, hearsay, and not something any official scientific community verifies. This 'Nibiru' stems from sumerian writings (more specifically cuneiform stone tablets) which date back roughly 6000 years. The term 'Nibiru' means "planet of the crossing".
I highly doubt this Planet X theory, its not just what science is telling us about its non-existence through observation of the skies but with what I know about why these calendars were developed and how they were initially used.
Before you can determine a pattern, its recurrence has to be measured. They had the measure (early astronomy) and were recording patterns going on in their environment.
With the length of the Sumarian Culture (its predecessors and even their successors) and the fact they would not have been able to record this event more than once to see if there was a pattern, it just makes it a highly unlikely probability and something unique to just them unless you can find other calendars noting the Planet Nibiru, if their calendar even did that. I don't know enough about the Sumarian Calendar to say if that was just a wide interpretation or something someone wanted to see. If it is in their calendar, it could have just been a spiritual belief and not part of the science that was going on in astronomy at the time trying to relate weather patterns to time cycles.
I say this because Mesopotamia predated this culture and the Egyptians followed. If something that profound had of happened, I would think we would see evidence of it in their calendars and I've only heard this Planet X theory attributed to the Sumarians.
I find it interesting though that some of these people seem to know so much about Sumerian culture when it was my understanding we actually know very little. | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/16/2009 8:30:42 PM | BUMP!
I was just thinking today about 2012, and how it can't come a moment too soon for me. End of the world as we know it? Bring it on, I NEED a change. | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/17/2009 2:24:10 PM | | hi ..OP I do not have astronomical facts for or against 2012 but I would like to go on record stating that I do not have any doubt that God did not give the maya culture the prophesy that 2012 was the end of all things... the bible says that the end will come but that no man (or maya) knows the day or hour.... wars rumours of wars are like the ~beginning~ of birthpains says the bible so look for an increase of these things near the end... know that Jesus is at the door but the end will come when the nations are proclaiming peace so man needs to go on Gods Word vs his own assumptions... Jaques Cousteau is quoted as saying that the earth could not survive more than 25, 50 or a hundred yrs.. a scientist who made it his life work to study nature/oceans, who better to read the earth prophesying of herself.... God says that if He did not intervine mankind would self destruct.... no to 2012, no to the earth exploding, no to the sun dying, no to an asteroid, yes to natural disasters, yes to a divided nation, yes to studying but not the works of men.... blessings | |
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Malc43
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Joined: 9/14/2009
Msg: 155 | |
| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/18/2009 9:14:51 AM | Something with profound implications for the Earth such as an inbound planet likely to disrupt the planets of the inner solar system really is going to be kept top secret.Astronomers, like other scientists are bound by non disclosure agreements.
Is there science behind this theory ?, I think the ancient Sumarians would have no reason to make this story up, some government activities could indicate something is amiss.
I have no problem with the idea that the solar system could in fact be a binary system, the second star being a infra red object, a brown dwarf star.They are extremely difficult objects to detect, there are 'wobbles' in the orbits of the outer planets indicating a gravitational influence, could astronomers know this ?, by now they should. If it is out there, and inbound, we should know this by end of 2010 or thereabouts. | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/18/2009 10:38:48 AM |
Something with profound implications for the Earth such as an inbound planet likely to disrupt the planets of the inner solar system really is going to be kept top secret.Astronomers, like other scientists are bound by non disclosure agreements.
Well this wins today's "most ridiculous" award. No, astronomers are not bound by non-disclosure agreements. Even if they were, there are literally thousands upon thousands of amateur astronomers with access to telescopes and the southern sky.
And if you think a brown dwarf would be "invisible" in white light...a Jupiter-sized object in the outer solar system...you really need to pick up an astronomy magazine or text book.
This statement and what follows is a clear example of someone who knows nothing of astronomy! I wish people would think and research before they start believing this B.S.! Of course, the mindset that believes this crap won't be confused with facts when the fantasy is so much more fun. | |
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Malc43
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Joined: 9/14/2009
Msg: 157 | |
| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/18/2009 11:33:44 AM | | Amateur astronomers do not have the capability of tracking such an object, it requires pin point observation of a tiny area of sky, long exposure photographs and detection by blinking photographs taken over several days to detect any movement.This observation is still very much in the realm of professionals with optimum equipment. | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/18/2009 11:39:56 AM |
Amateur astronomers do not have the capability of tracking such an object, it requires pin point observation of a tiny area of sky, long exposure photographs and detection by blinking photographs taken over several days to detect any movement.This observation is still very much in the realm of professionals with optimum equipment.
And how many amateur astronomers do you know? Do you have any clue what contributions amateur astronomers make on a regular basis? Before automated telescope programs came along, do you have any idea how many comets, asteroids, novae, supernovae, etc., were actually discovered by amateurs?
Clearly not or you wouldn't have made an obviously uninformed statement like that. Plus, if you had any idea about the astronomical realities of seeing objects in space, you wouldn't make the additionally foolish statement that a brown dwarf would be "undetectable."
Or did I just imagine seeing a 150 km-wide main-belt asteroid last night? | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/20/2009 3:44:50 PM | | As you probably know (or not) The Maya knew so many things about astronomy even thousands of years ago. Bc of European arrogance, all of the things Mayans already knew, euro scientists had to take forever to find out themselves. But May were able to predict precessions (movements of stars) 250,000 years in advance, and no current astronomer has been able to find their scientific knowledge faulty. There is a greaqt book (hopefully not out of print now) called Maya cosmology or Maya Cosmography, something like that which shares much of their 'predictions' which are really only based on their exact sci knowledge. Very interesting stuff! | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/20/2009 5:34:56 PM |
But May were able to predict precessions (movements of stars) 250,000 years in advance, and no current astronomer has been able to find their scientific knowledge faulty.
Citation? I have heard that the Maya were obsessive about time. They absolutely were marvelous astronomers, in league with other ancient civilizations. But I'd have to know what the author was getting at before I could accept this on face value. | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/21/2009 7:50:45 AM | | Read Life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East to get the truth about what you are wanting to know. The Mayans also can help you understand the 2012 significance. 2012 will mark the half way mark of the movement across the void in the spiral of the milky way. For our solar system is growing a new one and many changes will result. There is a central sun which has 9 galaxies which grew out of it. Sun's birth the planets and they are all hollow. Most live inside. Earth is just at a place in the position where life can exist on the outside. Each planet moves out to make room for the next planet births and there are always 9 planets. When the 10th is birthed and that was caught on NASA viewing the sun in 1 983. All images stopped and all the old NASA guys saw it. Jupiter will be moving out to become a new sun and start another solar system. All the planets are evolving. Earth moved out and as it did, life began to evolve. http://www.tmgnow.com/repository/solar/orca.html | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/21/2009 10:02:06 AM | Then have a gander here:
http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/millenniumgroup.html
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/21/2009 11:01:44 AM | Sophie, if that's what I'm going to read in that "book," I'll just as soon pass because that has to be the biggest load of nonsense I have read in a long time.
When I asked for citation, I meant actual academic citation. | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/21/2009 11:12:15 AM | ............... I'm still waiting for all of the 'astonomical facts' to be cited, as per the title of this thread.
............... and waiting
............... and waiting
............... | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/21/2009 12:34:31 PM |
How could there be NO facts in regard to 2012 ,
or are you just looking for conspiracy stuff ?.
What are the facts from the astronomy community in regards to 2012 ,
just another manic Monday ?.
Well, since you're so adamant that there MUST be some sort of astronomical FACTS regarding a 2012 apocalypse..... perhaps you could do some research via the peer reviewed scientific community and get back to us with a list of them ?
Because it seems to have deceptively hidden itself from the rest of us.
Note : And until such time as these scientifically researched astronomical facts rear their heads (as you so claim MUST exist), any posit to a 2012 apocalypse is considered rumour, heresay, hogwash, and pseudoscience for obvious reasons.
So you best get your research hat on, you've got a lot of surfing to do before the fateful date rolls around !
Thanks. | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/21/2009 12:45:58 PM | How could there be NO facts in regard to 2012
He was asking for "astronomical facts" regarding what is essentially the belief that 2012 holds some cosmic significance for us puny residents of Planet Earth.
Okay, so there is the belief that "Planet X" will make it's grand appearance. It is generally described as a giant planet or brown dwarf. Keeping in mind, the distinction between brown dwarf and giant planet is a bit vague other than a brown dwarf might have several times Jupiter's mass (1,000 times more mass for Jupiter would have made it a rather putative red dwarf star, however...), is that gas giants form in protoplanetary disks of forming stars while dwarfs form out of the gas and dust of the same nebula that are forming stars. It is, essentially, a failed star.
Now, beyond the insistance that Planet X is "out there" and its existence is being "covered up by mainstream science," what these poor, deluded and generally uninformed people don't realize is that there are thousands of amateur telescopes pointing skyward at any one time. No one...and I mean no one...has reported seeing a Jupiter-sized object in the outer solar system. And to be on a path to the inner solar system by 2012, it would have to be a lot closer to the sun than Pluto. And Pluto is only 1,200 kms across and can be seen in a reasonably-sized amateur 'scope. Imagine how bright a Jupiter-sized object would be.
Oh, but it's covered in dust, you say. Okay, but several asteroids have roughly the same albedo as charcoal and yet are easily detectable in amateur-level 'scopes.
Okay, now for any "grand alignment" of planets. Well, the planets appear widely spread out across the sky for this time in 2012. In fact, the closest they've every got to an "alignment" is occupying the same 45-degree spread in the sky and that was years ago. And we're still here.
Ah, but the "alignment with the core of the galaxy. Here's some coordinates for you:
Core of the galaxy (RA refers to "right ascension" in hours, minutes and seconds, Dec refers to "declination" in degrees, minutes and seconds)
RA 17h45m40.04s, Dec -29deg 00' 28.1"
Sun's position on Dec. 21, 2009
RA 17 h, 59m 44 s, Dec -23deg 26' 28"
Sun's position Dec. 21, 2012
RA 18h 0m 57s, Dec. -23 deg 26' 22"
So the sun's position will be more than one hour of arc further east from the relative position of the centre of the galaxy's position in the sky in RA, and less than 6 seconds of arc further north in declination. In the meantime, the sun doesn't come closer than 6 degrees of the known galactic centre's relative position. Again, remembering that we are 26,000 light years away from the galaxy's true centre...thankfully. By comparison, Jupiter is the largest planet in the sky and subtends just 45 arc seconds across the sky while the moon covers half a degree.
Are we feeling better now? | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/21/2009 12:52:26 PM | Ya but what about the FACT that Jupiter is so big and therefore it's just simply blocking the view to Planet X to all these amateur astronomers ?!
Hmmm Hmmm ?!
What about that one, huh ! | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/21/2009 12:55:45 PM | The proof AGAINST has been posted in this thread more than once, as well as in multiple similar previous threads. 2012 makes the news because it includes fantastic claims...claims devoid of evidence. "No evidence" doesn't make for good media coverage.
There are a variety of claims made, none of which is substantiated by any fact. Most are refuted by fact, science, or logic. Many can be discarded because the claims begin and end with arguments in logical fallacy. One of those is "YOU don't KNOW", which is the ever popular argumentum ad ignorantiam. Well...we DO know. We know that a Jupiter-sized planet hurtling through the solar system would be both visible long ago, and would be leaving a rather distinct wake of gravitic evidence. It's not there. We know that computing some magical galactic "alignment" down to one day of a particular year is ludicrous. That's like spreading a rotating, vibrating layer of sand over an entire American state, and then telling us that one grain on the border will be in alignment with the center on October 3 of this year. That's lovely. The math isn't precise enough, the measurements aren't precise enough, and the basic concept is idiocy, since the effects of such an "alignment" would be beneath trivial.
The claims have not been attended by evidence. There is no requirement for evidence to the contrary, only the rhetoric involved in demonstrating that all the claims are false.
*note* For Nibiru to be hidden from view behind Jupiter, it would have to be, by definition, in an almost constant state of eclipse. It would have to orbit the sun in the same time as Jupiter [it's reputed 3600 year orbit clearly doesn't meet that requirement], AS WELL AS the same length of time as Earth. It's fairly obvious that 3600 years does not equal 1 year any more than it does 11.8 years. It could not remain hidden for more than days, if not hours or minutes. | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/21/2009 12:58:37 PM | Ya but what about the FACT that Jupiter is so big and therefore it's just simply blocking the view to Planet X to all these amateur astronomers ?!
D'oh! You got me there! I better go check with my establishment science lizard alien Illuminati Mason masters to see how to answer that one.
Edit:
"No evidence" doesn't make for good media coverage.
Hey! I used to work in the news media. Stop beating up on us. We actually laughed at this kind of nonsense.
Ooops, I'm showing my Illuminati-controlled roots again. Please ignore me and carry on. | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/21/2009 6:05:19 PM | Well, here's the OP:
2012 & astronomical facts?
Hi. I'm looking to talk with people who know a lot more about astronomy than I do, to get the scientific view about a "rogue" planet that supposedly enters into our solar system every 3600 years, around the year 2012. This *may* cause a shift/flipping of the earths geo-magnetic poles, widespread earth quakes etc... but 2012 is also supposed to be a time when a great "enlightenment" is said to come to a large part of the worlds population...
I don't want to start a big discusion on religion or prophecy, I just want compare how the scientific *facts*, line up with the potential "predictions"... comparing the orbital path of the rogue planet (which NASA has mentioned), with the planets in our solar system, how they might overlap around 2012 & *if* this planets gravity would REALLY be strong/close enough to have a devestaing effect on the Earth.
To know more on the topic before you post, check the net for videos about 2012.
But it's true, you don't lay claim to any of this, you're just trying to pick a fight. Sounds like a troll to me. Big shock. | |
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| 2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 9/21/2009 6:40:54 PM |
Stargazer , I truely am amazed at your knowledge of astronomy
but once again ,even you go jumping to conclusions...
Ummm, okay. So you were looking for what? Oh, let me quote you.
What are the facts from the astronomy community in regards to 2012 ,
Someone in "the astronomy community" has answered your direct question.
Feel free to research more on your own. | |
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