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Posted: 4/9/2008 2:29:28 PM | Nona37, you didn't answer my questions.
1. """It's obvious you have never witnessed abuse of the US welfare system,
which I find amazing since it's so rampant as well as in the newspapers
as well as media. Ever hear of a mother/father on welfare who sell
their food stamps for drugs or alcohol or even cigarettes while
their children are at home hungry? Ever stand outside a welfare
office and view the people going into them? I've witnessed many driving
up in Cadillacs with expensive cellphones. There have been cases where
even the employees of the welfare system were caught abusing the system,
with cases such as lying on applications to ensure their family members
can draw welfare or flat out stealing food stamps as well as money
from the welfare system. This is reality. Due to these incidents
which have and do happen, the people who are legit in their plight
to survive have a hard time and it's sad.""
Again, as I stated, the old Title IV-A never at the height of it found more than a 3% fraud rate. So the various cast of characters you describe, which I dont find beleiveable at all and nor do I see or hear anything as rampant as you describe, is within that 3%, is it not? That means 97% of all the rest of it is for people who genuinely need the help, is it not?
Did you want to argue against the 3% fraud rate? If so, back it up.
2. """Yes, I have a clue obviously. No, the most desperate are not the
only ones on welfare. The liars and people committing fraud are on
welfare as well, you forgot to figure those low-lifes into the equation.
The welfare does not give "money" for food to poor people, that is
what food stamps are for. Children are the victims of these people
who abuse our welfare system. While mom or dad or both are out
selling food stamps for drugs or utilizing their welfare money to
buy cigarettes and new clothes, these kids are home hungry and suffering,
I have no clue why your eyes are so closed to this epidemic, it's
happening nationwide and children are paying the price for these
atrocities. It needs to stop and people such as yourself need
to realize reality."""
Again, beside whatever internet stories you read or the occasional sensational article about some screw-up on welfare, you are talking about 3% of it. A 3% rate of abuse of a program is no reason to get rid of the other 97%.
Find me ANY state, city, federal, corporate, anything that has a comparable rate of fraud or abuse and then say it should be shut down because of it. Start with the military, who don't you.
Basically, TANF is about 1/10 of the size it was in 1996. A great many women and their children have long left welfare. In fact, 80% were never on for more than 1 year. The lifetime limit, and I mean LIFETIME LIMIT is now 5 years. The program has been very seriously cut back since 1996 under welfare reform.
So, again, a program that never had more than a 3% fraud rate, that is 1/10 of the size it was in 1996 .............and you find an epidemic of abuse and fraud? HUH? Droves of people with Cadillacs and gold chains coming into the welfare offices by the dozens, eh? Funny how that story gets around. Newspapers and other media rife with tales of welfare abuse? HUH? I NEVER hear any such thing and I read three newspapers each and every day ........you only hear it on the internet in the form of LIES PROPAGATED BY REPUBLICAN LIARS.
So, you tell me why and how eliminating welfare is such a hot issue now.
Again. | |
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Posted: 4/9/2008 3:45:20 PM | Steven:
I noticed I did not answer that particular question, however,
it's obvious I answered the other one and without question from
you. Referencing the particular question, here are some things
I found in reference to the state I live in. I find it hillarious
that you believe people are not trying to commit fraud within
our welfare system. Here is a good example of people trying, but
of course these particular people were thwarted by the new imaging
system which New York State has currently.
"State initiatives to root out fraud and abuse have also received
some credit for caseload declines. These include a finger-imaging
system for all TANF and SNA recipients. The system is credited
with causing 32,200 cases to be closed. Another effort, the Front
End Detection Program, is said to have resulted in denials or
withdrawals of 164,005 benefits applications.
"Despite widespread concerns in the state, welfare reform had not
had a significant effect on child welfare caseloads by the time
of our visits. In 1998, New York investigated allegations of
abuse and neglect involving 240,655 children, a 10 percent
increase since 1996. Of the children investigated in 1998, 35
percent were found to be victims of maltreatment, a decrease from
47 percent in 1996, and higher than the national median of 30
percent. New York's victimization rate, 18.6 cases of abuse per
1,000 children, is higher than the national median of 11.5.
I do not believe these facts coincide with your statement steven.
This is within New York state alone, at least up until 1998. You were
saying that children are not being abused within the welfare system?
http://www.urban.org/publications/310564.html
Here is more info.
"In short, the current indictment against the welfare system has four particulars:
* It does not provide sufficient state flexibility.
* It does not encourage work.
* It is responsible for the breakdown of the family,
especially for a rising tide of out-of-wedlock births.
* It has done little to reduce poverty, especially among
children.
http://www.urban.org/publications/306620.html
Child care fraud?
"Forty of the 42 state fraud directors polled were of the opinion
that child care fraud posed a problem in their states and of the
two answering in the negative, one still provided examples of the
types of child care fraud that has occurred within its boundaries."
"In one recent Colorado case a client forged her pay stubs
reducing the claimed amount of income to her household. As a
result she received over $12,000 in child care assistance over
14 months to which she was not entitled.
Two Virginia women failed to report that their husbands were
employed and residing in their homes resulting in losses of $16,
482.00 and $15, 962.00, respectively.
A Minnesota woman falsely reported living alone when her
able-bodied husband was, in fact, in the household and collected
more than $91,000 in child care assistance over four years.
In another Colorado case, a client claimed residence in one county
while residing in another. A recovery of $33,553.00 was
established for a two year period.
A Rochester, New York woman, whom I prosecuted, claimed that her
brother was caring for her 11 children. Payments were sent in her
brother’s name to her mother’s address. The brother, in fact, had
been incarcerated for over 10 years on a rape conviction and her
husband was, in fact residing in the household and caring for the
children. The loss amount was limited to $77,000 because agency
records failed to cover the entire period of the fraud.
The illegally obtained money made the client ineligible for the
food stamps the family received and the Section 8 housing in
which they resided.
Another Rochester woman stole an acquaintance’s social security
card, established a vendor account using the acquaintance’s
social security number and her own mother’s address. Twenty-seven
thousand dollars in child care payments were sent to her mother
who signed the checks and gave them to the recipient over a two
year period. Free care for five children was provided by the
client’s mother and her 85 year old grandmother.
In Wyoming, two sisters claimed a third was providing day care
for their children when, in fact, the third sister was fully
employed and they were not. This resulted in a loss of $6,700 over
a period of 14 months.
Similarly, two Virginia clients, employed by the same company,
claimed each provided services for the other when, in fact, they
worked the same hours. A claim of $36,474.00was established.
Another Virginia woman failed to report that she had lost her job
on three separate occasions, yet continued to send her children
to child care each time. The overpayments totaled nearly $4000.
Eighteen states had not been keeping statistics on child care
fraud, but of them, several responded that the local county
agencies administering the services did maintained fraud
databases. In those states that did maintain detailed statistics,
fraud was discovered in upwards of 69 percent of the
investigations conducted with total annual discovered fraud
amounts ranging from $10,000 to over $1 million."
"Conclusion:
Child Care Assistance has been described by one of our member
investigators as “the new pot of gold” in welfare fraud. It must
be acknowledged, pursued and prevented"
"There were 3446 convictions for welfare fraud involving $41.2
million in debts." The dates for this is 7/2004 - 6/2005"
http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/about_us/fraud_stats.htm
The link below covers numerous stories of welfare fraud. Therefore,
I disagree with your analysis as well as statistics.
http://www.dss.cahwnet.gov/fraud/PG270.htm
Steven, welfare fraud is a problem. It's a reality. It's going
to place us in even more debt within our country if they do not
get a handle on it. It's that simple.
http://www.dss.cahwnet.gov/fraud/PG270.htm
By the way, I NEVER said we should eliminate WELFARE, I said we should eliminate AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, please do not add words or change my words around to fit your purpose, I would appreciate that. | |
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Posted: 4/9/2008 4:48:29 PM | You're quote mining Nona 37. From the same source you quoted immediately before the 32 thousand applications cut.
Statewide, TANF caseloads have declined significantly compared to their pre-TANF levels. In August 1996, the total number of TANF recipients was 1.14 million statewide, but by December 1999 it had dropped by 33 percent to about 761,000. In New York City, the number of recipients declined from 779,284 in August 1996 to 524,740 in December 1999— another 33 percent decline. New York City's caseload accounts for nearly 70 percent of the state's caseload. Erie County saw a 34 percent decline, from 53,000 recipients to 35,000 in December 1999, but the county's caseload accounts for a mere 4.6 percent of the statewide caseload.
761/32=.04
As for prevention? That means the system works. If a person applies and withdrawals or is denied, the fraud never occured. | |
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Posted: 4/9/2008 4:54:39 PM | As usual Charles, you like to turn things to prove your supposed point. The point here is that that particular reference was showing how many people "tried" within New York State alone to defraud the system but due to the new finger imaging system meaning, fingerprinting, they have weeded out those particular people.
I included other references showing how welfare fraud IS a problem, it's obvious, even without the links provided. People are abusing it and the innocent children as well as legitimate people who are law abiding and genuinely need help are suffering.
Here is exactly what was written in reference to that particular link in which you addressed.
"Here is a good example of people trying, but
of course these particular people were thwarted by the new imaging
system which New York State has currently."
NOTICE the key word "THWART". Thank you. | |
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Posted: 4/9/2008 5:08:08 PM | None37, ya, well if you didn't at least imply that welfare in all its forms should be eliminated, then what the hell is your issue? That there shouldn't be fraud? Is that actual "news"?
You quote some stats from 1998 and then gave about a dozen examples of fraud cases in as many states ........so? Are my eyes closed that I don't see fraud? I dont think so. Do you need me to research other kinds of fraud? Gee, we just handed over $37 billion was it? on Beare-Stearns.........did you know that last year their execs gave themselves $10 billion in bonuses, knowing they were going under? Tom Delay ...another wonderful Republican man of character who used to "adopt" cats from animal shelters so he could "operate" on them in his basement while in medical school...his family owns HCA, one of the biggest hospital firms in America, and they were convicted of over $1 billion in fraudulent Medicaid and Medicare claims, they paid back $300 million or so and I am sure kept a pretty penny. Fraud cuts across anything and everything about money..........is that news?
And what does fraud ....this sin of sins ....look like for a poor mother? My mother quit school to get married as a teenager to my father. They divorced when I was in first grade. My father paid child support,not enough, AND my mother was on WELFARE!!!, too, another pittance, AND she worked "under the table" waitressing, doing house parties for Stanley Home Products (a tupperware)..... AND on many occasions my little brother and I picked bugs out of our cereal, drank powdered milk, had fried baloney sandwhiches for dinner or PBJs and one special winter my mom couldnt afford a pair of winter boots so we shared a pair .....took turns while the other went sledding and one of us watched from our window. Just criminal, my poor mom!!! SHE COMMITTED FRAUD, TOO!!!!! Horrors!
Again, my question to you is: WHY NOW??? WHY IS THIS AN ISSUE NOW???
Caseloads are way down, fraud rates are low and steady .........so why on earth are you RAILING about welfare mothers? Mothers like my mother who scraped together anything and everything she could to feed her kids.
And tell me, dear Nona37, do you think that with the massive corporate and government fraud in the hundreds of billions of dollars going on in this country .........that with some poor people who might be at 102% of federal poverty instead of 100%, getting some assistance with their child care is really going to break the bank here?
My guess is that you are a complete and total RACIST. You want to imply that these are BLACK people taking our pretty WHITE MONEY. And from the rest of the posts I have to conclude that you were born 50 years too late and in the wrong country. You belong in 1939 Nazi Germany terrorizing Jews. So Heil f****g Hitler to you! | |
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Posted: 4/9/2008 5:23:19 PM | None37, ya, well if you didn't at least imply that welfare
in all its forms should be eliminated, then what the hell is your
issue? That there shouldn't be fraud? Is that actual "news"?
Fraud in welfare is NOT news, but you pretended it was, which of course
you are changing your stance.
All of this goes back to a statement which I made stating that
our welfare system needs to be revamped, which is where of course
you jumped upon a soapbox and started denying that welfare fraud
was a problem, it's obvious you were wrong.
fraud rates are low and steady
Wrong again.
And what does fraud ....this sin of sins ....look like for
a poor mother? My mother quit school to get married as a
teenager to my father. They divorced when I was in first grade.
My father paid child support,not enough, AND my mother was on
WELFARE!!!, too, another pittance, AND she worked "under the
table" waitressing, doing house parties for Stanley Home Products
(a tupperware)..... AND on many occasions my little brother and I
picked bugs out of our cereal, drank powdered milk, had fried
baloney sandwhiches for dinner or PBJs and one special winter my
mom couldnt afford a pair of winter boots so we shared a pair
.....took turns while the other went sledding and one of us
watched from our window. Just criminal, my poor mom!!! SHE
COMMITTED FRAUD, TOO!!!!! Horrors!
My sympathies to you and your family for growing up poor, but this
has absolutely nothing to do with proving your point on welfare fraud
not being an issue within the United States, sorry.
And tell me, dear Nona37, do you think that with the massive corporate and government fraud in the hundreds of billions of dollars going on in this country .
This has what to do with welfare fraud? Nothing.
My guess is that you are a complete and total RACIST. You want to imply that these are BLACK people taking our pretty WHITE MONEY. And from the rest of the posts I have to conclude that you were born 50 years too late and in the wrong country. You belong in 1939 Nazi Germany terrorizing Jews. So Heil f****g Hitler to you!
Now I"m a racist because I believe in equality for ALL races? Wow, then I guess all the abolitionists during the slave days were racists too right? lol
Heil Hitler?
This shows your ignorance. When you can not prove your point you resort to name calling as well as making derogatory claims, that's ok, it show's you can not prove your point and by the way. You can make the accusations all you want, you can reference me
to Nazi's, but this does not prove your point. :) | |
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