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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/2/2008 9:04:10 AM | jcrew617 wrote:
I totally think the polygamist supporters are jumping the gun by saying no Child Abuse occurred before the investigation is finalized.
What polygamist supporters are you talking about? To be honest about it, there is only one person here that is helping the bad people in Texas and that person is YOU. You see this investigation that sweepingly violates the Constitution as a good thing. I can guarantee you that every single “crime” that is uncovered in this investigation will result in the guilty people going free because the Constitution was not followed. Under the Constitution, law enforcement must have “probable cause” on each and every person that they take into custody to prevent the innocent from tyranny.
jcrew617 wrote:
Good for your mother. Did she also live in a religious sect and the leader forced her to spiritually but not legally marry a 50 year old man.
jcrew617 wrote:
Do a search for "Jessop and Warren Jeffs" and you will find documentation of a 14 year old marrying a 50 year old.
What 50 year old man are you talking about here? The raid on the YFZ Ranch began April 3, when someone claiming to be a 16-year-old girl named "Sarah" called a family crisis shelter in San Angelo, Texas, saying she was pregnant and in an abusive polygamous marriage with a 50 year old man. Later we would learn that Sarah did not exist, nor her 50 year old husband, and that call was really placed by a 33 year old Black woman that did not even live in Texas. The 52-year-old FLDS leader, Warren Jeffs, was convicted last year in Utah of rape as an accomplice, accusing him of performing a marriage between a 14-year-old girl and her 19-year-old cousin.
I don’t like Warren Jeffs any more than you do. However, he was arrested and convicted and he was not at the ranch so he is a non issue. Please check your facts before writing nonsense.
jcrew617 wrote:
The founders had it right when they believed religion went too far, when England left the Catholic church, and realized that religion was masked political dogma and tyrrany for the control of the poor and uneducated.
Are you smoking dope? You sure do not have any clue about history or the Founding Fathers or the Constitution. Please write more so I can use what you say in the thread about how public education is going to hell in a hand basket.
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/2/2008 10:52:25 AM | .
I can guarantee you that every single “crime” that is uncovered in this investigation will result in the guilty people going free because the Constitution was not followed. Under the Constitution, law enforcement must have “probable cause” on each and every person that they take into custody to prevent the innocent from tyranny.
The guilty will walk....
The innocents, the good parents and children have been convicted.... | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/4/2008 7:48:22 AM | Is it just me or do the recent press releases coming out of Texas detailing the outrages allegedly committed against the children of the Fundamentalist Church of Ladder-Day Saints polygamist sect exude a distinct odor of desperation? Solely on the strength of a single anonymous phone call from a purported 16 year old girl trapped in an abusive marriage to a much older man, the authorities charged into the insular religious community like Chuck Norris and packed away all of the sect's children to foster care with there being little chance of them ever being reunited with their families.
Excuse me but this chosen remedy seems a little harsh. Others seem to feel the same way. Texas is no stranger to public relations nightmares; Waco and Deeley Plaza come to mind. The difference is that these cited prior events were not technically Texas' fault. They just happened to take place there. The FCLS debacle is a Texas show from curtain to curtain. It seems to me that someone in a minor position of authority grossly overreacted to the aforementioned phone call. "Oh my stars! What about the children?!" Consequently, the Powers That Be made the fateful decision to act first and investigate later. Apparently it never occurred to these officials that the rest of the country, the world even, might expect them to show good cause for all the obvious harm they are meting out to the FCLS families.
Let me get this straight. An underaged girl whom no one can even identify claims she is being imprisoned and abused. Therefore, hundreds of children of all ages, male and female, are removed from their homes, permanently it seems, before even one adult is so much as charged or identified as a suspect in any criminal investigation.
The grown up thing for the Texas Dept. of Child Services to do would be to suck it up and admit that their actions, while understandable under the circumstances, might have been a little hasty and if everyone will just make nice and cooperate with the investigation which will now belatedly commence, we will all get through this.
The state authorities instead decided upon another course of action. Words like "child abuse," "rape," and "polygamy" are fed to the press like red meat. As for the first two terms, the charges sound hollow given the investigators' after-the-fact scramble to find evidence, any evidence, to substantiate them. I find the polygamist label to be especially problematic. If one considers that marriage is essentially a legal, contractual relationship between two people, say, a man and a woman, and the state as a third party, then it is pretty much impossible for someone to attain a condition of polygamy seeing as the state need simply to refuse to enter into the three-way contract to render that marriage a nullity. People are often prosecuted for bigamy but this is because they attempted to commit a fraud against the state, either by changing their identities or by exploiting a bureaucratic oversight.
I find the moral underpinning for outlawing polygamy to be troubling in its inconsistency. If a man has three wives, he is a polygamist. If a man has three pregnant girlfriends, he is a rock star. One man is a felon. The other is a model of male potency. This makes no sense to me.
The good public servants of the State of Texas know that in order to prevail in the court of public opinion, and justify their hamhanded actions, they have to convincingly portray the entire adult FCLS congregation as child-raping fiends whose actions are as dangerous to their children, themselves and the rest of us as they would be if they were making bombs instead of just babies inside their gated community. Looking at the women in their 19th century prairie dresses and faces that have never encountered cosmetics, I just don't see it. There is nothing in their manners or appearances to suggest a predilection for plural love and freaky sex. What I do see are people who want nothing of us but to be left alone. How unAmerican of them. I see mothers who obviously love their children a great deal and children who want nothing more than to be allowed to return to the life they knew.
For reasons previously stated, no one is likely to be charged with the crime of polygamy. As far as I can tell, the only crime that may have been committed is statutory rape. Fine. Identify and arrest the perpetrators and, as much as practicable, leave the families intact. My gripe is that no one has to my knowledge been charged with anything and yet the families have been destroyed with a bare minimum of due process. And what of these children who have been raised in their parents' weird religious time capsule? They are going to have to adjust somehow to modern society in all its insane complexity from the perspective of innocent wards of the state thrust into the arms of the deeply flawed foster care system. What will become of them? I fear that the Law of Unintended Consequences will have the final say in this matter and no one is going to like what they hear. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/5/2008 12:13:27 PM | | Someone just informed me... (haven't had a chance to check it out yet)... that the Ranch is located right next to the proposed NAFTA Superhighway. If this is true... then does that mean the gov motivation was for "land grab"??? | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/7/2008 4:00:15 AM |
According to the Houston Chronicle:
Until 2005, 14-year olds could marry in Texas with parental consent, and 16 year olds didn't need parents' permission. In 2005, the FLDS' relocation to his district prompted Rep. Harvey Hilderbran, R-Kerrville, to push for changes in the marriage law, including increasing the minimum age at which teenagers can marry to 16, if they get parental consent or a court order. Previous law allowed someone as young as 14 to get married with parental consent. The law was changed specifically targeting the FLDS.
According to the Salt Lake City Tribune: "attorneys representing the state focused in on 10 women between the ages of 16 and 19 listed as married to older men. Five were listed as having children." So all the talk of 14 year olds married off to old men was BS, at least according to evidence seized in the raid, and there's no evidence of any 15 year olds were married to older men.
Please take note that the Texas authorities release information as propaganda. For example, they talk about teens being mothers or pregnant which would include 18 and 19 year olds. However, they release the information in a way that makes the public “think” that these are “underage” women. Of the 10 teen women identified, there is no further breakdown to let us know how many are underage. It’s looking more and more likely that there may not be any underage women at all involved.
The FLDS parents, who deny all allegations of sexual abuse, have said they didn't believe the allegations from "Sarah" and suggested the phone calls were faked. Stephanie Goodman, chief spokeswoman for all of Texas' social services agencies, said she doesn't know if the calls that prompted CPS' sweep were a hoax. "It doesn't matter," Ms. Goodman said.
So, it is not important that the person that triggered a judge to issue a search warrant is real or not.
SAN ANGELO, Texas - State officials are defending the separation of mothers from many of the children taken in a raid on a polygamist ranch in West Texas. Texas Children's Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said the separation, came after careful review and much discussion with experts. She said Tuesday their experience shows abused children are more truthful in interviews about their treatment at home if a parent isn't present. The mothers have complained the state deceived them, but Meisner said the situation was explained and while there were tears, the operation went smoothly.
Nice to know things are going smoothly for the Texas Child Protective Services, well, other than some tears. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/22/2008 1:01:28 PM | The sheriff had it out for this group whether what he knew was true or not the way he conducted the search and seziure broke some laws that some of us early on said would come back to haunt hin and the state of Texas and it has....read of the latest.....
Court: Texas wrongly seized sect children
Judge has 10 days to comply with ruling; applies to 48 polygamist mothers
updated 29 minutes ago
SAN ANGELO, Texas - A Texas appeals court said Thursday that the state had no right to take more than 400 children from a polygamist sect's ranch, a ruling that could unravel one of the biggest child-custody cases in U.S. history.
It was unclear how many children were affected by the ruling. The state took 464 children into custody, but Thursday's ruling directly applied to the children of 48 sect mothers represented by the Texas Rio Grande Legal Aide, said Cynthia Martinez of the agency.
The Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled that the state offered "legally and factually insufficient" grounds for the "extreme" measure of removing all children from the ranch, from babies to teenagers. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/22/2008 2:27:13 PM | | Montanan thanks for posting this. I burst into tears when I read it although I know this isn't the end of it for these mothers. I still can't believe how many dogmatic people think/thought it was okay for the state (meaning ANY government entitiy) to go in and take these children from their mothers. Weeks ago I posted that what happened there can happen to ANY of us, especially when we turn a blind eye to government overstepping it's bounds. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/22/2008 5:55:54 PM |
A Texas appeals court ruled Thursday that state authorities and a lower court judge abused their authority by illegally seizing up to 468 children from their homes at a polygamist ranch in West Texas last month.
The rebuke threw the largest custody case in American history into turmoil, with some lawyers saying the children could soon be reunited with their families. Many of the mothers have been criss-crossing Texas visiting their children in foster homes.
According to the court, the state did not establish proper grounds to remove the children from their families, who belong to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or F.L.D.S. The F.L.D.S. broke off from the mainstream Mormon church after it had disavowed polygamy in 1890.
The agency raided the Yearning for Zion ranch on April 3 after someone had called an abuse hot line and said that she was a 16-year-old child bride being abused by her older husband in the church’s compound. The caller has still not been found.
Officials of the state Department of Family and Protective Services on Thursday defended their actions as having been taken in the children’s interest and said they were considering their next steps.
The unanimous ruling by three judges of the Third Court of Appeals in Austin revoked the state’s custody over a large group of the children and by extension almost certainly the rest, for what it called a lack of evidence that they were in immediate danger of sexual or physical abuse.
The appeals court said the record “does not reflect any reasonable effort on the part of the department to ascertain if some measure short of removal and/or separation would have eliminated the risk.” It also said the evidence of danger to the children “was legally and factually insufficient” to justify their removal and it said the lower court “abused its discretion” in failing to return seized children to their families.
The ruling — an unusual mandamus opinion granting relief in a case not yet decided — came on the application of 38 women who challenged state custody and another 54 who filed a second action. But lawyers said the burden was on the state to show why it should not apply to the rest of the children as well.
State agency officials, who have been criticized for their handling of the raid, said taking all the children in the church’s compound were necessary because the culture of the sect led to illegal under-age marriage for girls and acceptance of that practice by boys, a pattern that the state said endangers both sexes.
The children and their mothers, who refused to be separated from them, were initially housed in a former military facility and an entertainment arena in San Angelo. Last month, after two days of often chaotic hearings, a judge in San Angelo ordered that all of the children be placed in Texas foster care facilities.
The court action on Thursday followed a writ of mandamus filed by the Texas RioGrande Legal Aid group — the largest provider of legal aid in the state — and some mothers from the sect who were representing their children.
“We’re extremely happy with the ruling,” Cynthia Martinez, a spokeswoman for the Texas RioGrande Legal Aid group, told The Houston Chronicle.
“The way that the courts have ignored the legal rights of these mothers is ridiculous,” Julie Balovich, also of RioGrande, added. “It was about time a court stood up and said that what has been happening to these families is wrong.”
The state made its case in an earlier court hearing. “There is a culture of young girls being pregnant by old men,” said Angie Voss, an investigator with Child Protective Services, who participated in the raid and interviewed girls at the ranch. Ms. Voss testified that she had found evidence that “more than 20 girls, some of whom are now adults, have conceived or given birth under the age of 16 or 17.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/22/us/22cnd-polygamy.html?bl&ex=1211601600&en=d0a1ed67ee5b8c74&ei=5087%0A
NOTE:
the state did not establish proper grounds to remove the children from their families ~ a lack of evidence that they were in immediate danger of sexual or physical abuse. ~ The appeals court said the record “does not reflect any reasonable effort on the part of the department to ascertain if some measure short of removal and/or separation would have eliminated the risk.” It also said the evidence of danger to the children “was legally and factually insufficient” to justify their removal and it said the lower court “abused its discretion” in failing to return seized children to their families.
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/22/2008 6:07:45 PM | | Those woman are very sad, What kind of life is that to live, Its horrible. they need to be brought back to reality..Those men are abusive and it is wrong to have more than one wife and then it is wrong to have your young daughters have to marry those old dirty men.... | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/23/2008 8:00:07 AM | | Let the criminals be prosecuted on a case by case basis. But it is gestapo tactics to traumatize families as the state has done, by kidnapping every child from every family because they happen to live together, and all based on a crank phone call. Why don't those lazy cowards swoop in on the "projects" in their big cities where much worse things happen to children on a daily basis and where they all live together? But what can you expect from a state who gave us Waco? Does anyone truly believe they would have done this if this community was made up of a racial minority, or muslims, who are also polygamists well known for abusing women and children, at least by our standards? | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/23/2008 6:25:41 PM | There are people here like American, Indy, myself and others that though we think it was great that the men breaking the law in this compound have been and will be prosequted/sentenced, by the very laws that the police from city to county to state to feds who inforce them and tell us we are suppose to obey them..........they to have to go by the same laws and then some that are based on certain state and US constitutional right factors.
In this instance.....imagine your at home....there's a loud knock and before you can answer the cops and who knows who else of various police agencies kick the door in and tell you they got a call from someone that at this address someone was being hurt and after searching the place and detaining you and who ever else is in your home your all seperated and taken to various places at the local police station, everyone grilled and questioned for hours and in the mean time all of your personal things at home...papers, telephone bill, computer, emails, regular mail, bank accounts, etc., are all scrutinized and gone over all because someone called and said you were doing something illegal they couldn't validate but acted upon anyway. That is what they did to that compound. They didn't go in to get the bad guys.....they went in on the premise that all adult males were the bad guys....all the adult females were going to lie for all the adult males so that made all the adult females bad guys too so they had to save the kids from all those bad male and female adults they just knew had to be in on the biggest sexual scandel to hit the states. They didn't care if anyone was innocent in this group among the adults. They did not care how traumatic this was going to be for innocent adults...male and female and the innocent children. The sheriff had an agenda to clean out that place and he did not care what the out come would be or how it would affect anyone. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/23/2008 6:50:51 PM | I'm glad for the innocent parents and children who are justly re-united. I also hope they sort out the abusers and handle them accordingly.
It was totally wrong to run an assumption based "blanket sweep" on that place. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/23/2008 7:37:01 PM | Gestapo tactics...
This is America not Nazi Germany! Where have all those posters gone who exclaimed such raids regardless of evidence was acceptable?
Just like when the lights get turned on those little roaches scurry back to the darkness. America needs to stand strong against such facist that would trample upon liberty. | |
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Posted: 5/24/2008 11:31:49 AM |
This is America not Nazi Germany!
I remember seeing a lot of documentaries about Nazi Germany and I also read a lot about them and the techniques Hitler used to gain and control power. I remember the sharp contrast between THEM and US. For example, the Nazis created an elite police force known as the Gestapo and we had nothing like that when I was young. They were trained in military techniques something like our SWAT teams that we now have today. The German people could not travel their country freely like we could when I was a boy because they had random police check points. These check points were a lot like the DUI check points we have today. In Nazi Germany, one could not travel by airplane or ship without being subject to search and we had none of that in the USA. Those Nazi searches were somewhat like the way we are searched today in airports and ship ports. When I was a boy, the police could not search our automobiles without a search warrant but now a car is not considered personal property and no judge’s order is needed any more. The Nazis also could seize property without a judge’s order and we had none of that when I was a boy. When the USA began the war on drugs, that some how lead to the police being able to confiscate cash money as if it were something illegal to have and they also have the right without a judge’s order to confiscate property like cars or houses if one is found with drugs under the assumption that they are somehow related to the drugs and they can even empty your bank accounts too leaving a person unable to afford an attorney. The Nazis, of course, attacked other countries too with made up reasons which is kind of similar to the way we got involved in Iraq. One of the worst things I remember about the Nazis is that they killed unborn babies in a procedure called an abortion and we had none of that when I was a boy. You could always tell German solders from our GI’s because they had a different helmet then we did. It looks a lot like the new design helmet that our army uses today. The Germans would also arrest people in groups and not like the system we had, well, until this Texas thing happened. The media was just exactly like another poster said they were – They were fed propaganda and ravenously fed on it like animals would eat red meat until they were stuffed. I could go on and on more and more but I think that I have made my point that WE are becoming THEM and that is not a place we want to go even with good intentions.
Yes, I am happy for the innocent but still disappointed with some that do not see the potential abuses that will happen if these things are not prevented. Hats off to the Courts for rebuking one of their own. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/27/2008 4:52:34 PM | http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds1.html
Warren Jeffs is the leader and profit of the FLDS. He may be in jail but his word is the word of God to these people. Here is a picture of the man that the FLDS follow. Here he is kissing a 14 year old girl.
These FLDS men and women and children blindly follow his orders and the police and law enforcement should not turn a blind eye. In a free and open society, a religious sect cannot close itself off of the police and law enforcement. While every man can live as he pleases on his private property, it does not make it legal to build up walls to prevent police from enforcing the laws of sexual conduct and approving legal marriages, not spiritual marriages.
What is your definition of a household? By most accounts, the children were living in bunkers and many were without their birth parents or there was no identification of who their birth parents were. This is not present-day America where each household has a separate family with a parent and children. There were many parents and caretakers overseeing the children. If you can tell me that each child in the YFZ is living with his/her birth parent, then I will believe in your case that the households were separate entities. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/27/2008 5:00:07 PM |
There are people here like American, Indy, myself and others that though we think it was great that the men breaking the law in this compound have been and will be prosequted/sentenced, by the very laws that the police from city to county to state to feds who inforce them and tell us we are suppose to obey them..........they to have to go by the same laws and then some that are based on certain state and US constitutional right factors.
In this instance.....imagine your at home....there's a loud knock and before you can answer the cops and who knows who else of various police agencies kick the door in and tell you they got a call from someone that at this address someone was being hurt and after searching the place and detaining you and who ever else is in your home your all seperated and taken to various places at the local police station, everyone grilled and questioned for hours and in the mean time all of your personal things at home...papers, telephone bill, computer, emails, regular mail, bank accounts, etc., are all scrutinized and gone over all because someone called and said you were doing something illegal they couldn't validate but acted upon anyway. That is what they did to that compound. They didn't go in to get the bad guys.....they went in on the premise that all adult males were the bad guys....all the adult females were going to lie for all the adult males so that made all the adult females bad guys too so they had to save the kids from all those bad male and female adults they just knew had to be in on the biggest sexual scandel to hit the states. They didn't care if anyone was innocent in this group among the adults. They did not care how traumatic this was going to be for innocent adults...male and female and the innocent children. The sheriff had an agenda to clean out that place and he did not care what the out come would be or how it would affect anyone.
Maybe you think that CPS and DSS should be discontinued and that the police should not handle domestic affairs such as child abuse or statutory rape. There are often wrongly accused and innocent people, and then there are also often guilty people. That is what an investigation is for. If you live in a community and live open and free for all your neighbors to see, then your innocence should prevail. But the FLDS chose to live behind walls and gates away from the reach of law enforcement. Sure, it is great if I could own private property and break state and local laws - maybe I should join the FLDS and be saved! | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/27/2008 5:06:48 PM |
The founders had it right when they believed religion went too far, when England left the Catholic church, and realized that religion was masked political dogma and tyrrany for the control of the poor and uneducated.
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Are you smoking dope? You sure do not have any clue about history or the Founding Fathers or the Constitution. Please write more so I can use what you say in the thread about how public education is going to hell in a hand basket.
The founders never wanted religion to influence govt and become a theocracy. That being said, the Federal and State laws supersede any religious laws. The age of consent is usually 17 but the FLDS disavowed these laws that you and I abide by and proclaimed religious immunity from prosecution. Its BS and you know it. If members of the FLDS knew about these rapes and did nothing to stop it, then they will burn in hell or be jailed for conspiracy. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/27/2008 5:18:16 PM | I don't want to scare anyone...or offend anyone....but this story IS repeating itself...daily...in our country.
Lebensborn means "spring of life". The "Lebensborn" project was one of most secret and terrifying Nazi projects. Heinrich Himmler created The "Lebensborn" on December 12th, 1935. The goal of this society ("Registered Society Lebensborn - Lebensborn Eingetragener Verein") was to offer to young girls "racially pure" the possibility to give birth to a child in secret. The child was then given to the SS organization which took in charge his "education" and adoption.
In the beginning, the "Lebensborn" were SS nurseries. But in order to create a "super-race", the SS transformed these nurseries in "meeting places" for "racially pure" German women who wanted to meet and make children with SS officers. The children born in the Lebensborn were taken in charge by the SS and it is important to know that most of them were also victims of this race policy....
From 1939, one of the most horrible side of the Lebensborn policy was the kidnapping of children "racially goods" in the eastern occupied countries. These kidnappings were organized by the SS in order to take by force children who matched the Nazi's racial criteria (blond hair, blue eyes, etc....). Thousands of children were transferred to the "Lebensborn" centers in order to be "Germanized". In these centers, everything was done to force the children to reject and forget their birth parents. As an example, the SS nurses tried to persuade the children that they were deliberately abandoned by their parents. The children who refused the Nazi education were often beaten. Most of them were finally transferred to concentration camps (most of the time Kalish in Poland) and exterminated. The others were adopted by SS families.
In 1942, in reprisals of the assassination of the SS governor Heydrich in Prague, a SS unit exterminated the entire male population of a small village called Lidice. During this "operation", some SS made a selection of the children. 91 of them were considered as good enough to be "Germanized" and sent to Germany. The others were sent to special children camps (i.e. Dzierzazna & Litzmannstadti) and later to the extermination canters.
It is nearly impossible to know how much children were kidnapped in the eastern occupied countries. In 1946, it was estimated that more than 250,000 were kidnapped and sent by force to Germany. Only 25,000 were retrieved after the war and sent back to their family. It is known that several German families refused to give back the children they had received from the Lebensborn centers. In some cases, the children themselves refused to come back in their original family: they were victims of the Nazi propaganda and believed that they were pure Germans. It is also known that thousand of children not "good enough" to be Germanized were simply exterminated. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/27/2008 7:44:04 PM |
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds1.html "The photos, which you'll find on the following pages, were introduced
Friday at a child custody hearing stemming from last month's raid at a
Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) compound."
In a word, yikes. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 5/27/2008 8:08:45 PM | I can think of more than a word, but I'll reserve it, because I'm about to toss my cookies. That was disgusting.
I hope the people posting that are upset about the rights of us out here see that and remember the rights of them, in there. | |
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